I'm sorry, but giving a white creature a black ability IS drifting from white. At the very least, they are bleeding the color pie for flavor reasons, specifically to evoke a black card. Thanks for continuing to ignore the mono red angels though. And I never brought up Avacyn.
The point, BTW, is that they very much are drifting from mono white, and we are seeing both mono red angels and Angel related spells, and black abilities on angel cards.
Bleeds are still part of the color. It's not something White can't do, it's something that it does rarely. Maybe the card was designed to invoke Fallen ANgel, but it's by no means something mono-White is barred from. If this is your evidence for angels shifting away from White, I'm sorry to say that it's very flimsy.
I'm going to be forgiving and assume you've just forgotten about my previous addressals on the set's Red angels. Because, otherwise, that statement would be very hypocritical on your part.
You never addressed the mono reds in this thread. You addressed Avacyn being R/W. Save me your condescending tone, because you haven't earned it.
Angels went from being mono white except for the powerpuff girls, to being solidly boros with hints of black abilities, which are bled for flavor reasons the same way they were in New Phyrexia. Or are you going to start to argue that target life loss is something white can do now, because it was on the white exarch? Moonsilver has fallen angels black ability in white because 1, flavor reasons and 2, delirium implies insanity, and thus a tendency to do things you normally wouldn't.
Angels on Innistrad have drifted from white like New Phyrexia drifted from black. Where once it was their core, it is now only one facet. And this was by choice for creative. They didn't need to drift to become villains, we've actually seen a mono white angelic Inquisition before, as the villains. They specifically chose to highlight the red aspects, such as reckless abandon, anger, and even enjoyment of the destruction.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm sorry, but giving a white creature a black ability IS drifting from white. At the very least, they are bleeding the color pie for flavor reasons, specifically to evoke a black card. Thanks for continuing to ignore the mono red angels though. And I never brought up Avacyn.
The point, BTW, is that they very much are drifting from mono white, and we are seeing both mono red angels and Angel related spells, and black abilities on angel cards.
Bleeds are still part of the color. It's not something White can't do, it's something that it does rarely. Maybe the card was designed to invoke Fallen ANgel, but it's by no means something mono-White is barred from. If this is your evidence for angels shifting away from White, I'm sorry to say that it's very flimsy.
I'm going to be forgiving and assume you've just forgotten about my previous addressals on the set's Red angels. Because, otherwise, that statement would be very hypocritical on your part.
You never addressed the mono reds in this thread. You addressed Avacyn being R/W. Save me your condescending tone, because you haven't earned it.
Angels went from being mono white except for the powerpuff girls, to being solidly boros with hints of black abilities, which are bled for flavor reasons the same way they were in New Phyrexia. Or are you going to start to argue that target life loss is something white can do now, because it was on the white exarch? Moonsilver has fallen angels black ability in white because 1, flavor reasons and 2, delirium implies insanity, and thus a tendency to do things you normally wouldn't.
Angels on Innistrad have drifted from white like New Phyrexia drifted from black. Where once it was their core, it is now only one facet. And this was by choice for creative. They didn't need to drift to become villains, we've actually seen a mono white angelic Inquisition before, as the villains. They specifically chose to highlight the red aspects, such as reckless abandon, anger, and even enjoyment of the destruction.
First off, New Phyrexia is a terrible comparison because it simply branched into other colours. If maybe not for Elesh Norn invading Sheoldred's domain and possibly killing her, it would have still been overwhelmingly Black.
Second, again, why are the majority of angelic spells White if they're supposedly drifting from it? Adding Red to the angels doesn't subtract the White.
Third, I assume that the mono-Red angels are also supposed to be Boros, just simplified to mono-Red for mechanical reasons. This has happened before (Tarkir dragons, for instance). Do note also that at least one of them is Goldnight, the Red/White faction.
Fourth, there is still no evidence of Black angels besides a mechanic that is still within White's scope.
I'm sorry, but giving a white creature a black ability IS drifting from white. At the very least, they are bleeding the color pie for flavor reasons, specifically to evoke a black card. Thanks for continuing to ignore the mono red angels though. And I never brought up Avacyn.
The point, BTW, is that they very much are drifting from mono white, and we are seeing both mono red angels and Angel related spells, and black abilities on angel cards.
Bleeds are still part of the color. It's not something White can't do, it's something that it does rarely. Maybe the card was designed to invoke Fallen ANgel, but it's by no means something mono-White is barred from. If this is your evidence for angels shifting away from White, I'm sorry to say that it's very flimsy.
I'm going to be forgiving and assume you've just forgotten about my previous addressals on the set's Red angels. Because, otherwise, that statement would be very hypocritical on your part.
You never addressed the mono reds in this thread. You addressed Avacyn being R/W. Save me your condescending tone, because you haven't earned it.
Angels went from being mono white except for the powerpuff girls, to being solidly boros with hints of black abilities, which are bled for flavor reasons the same way they were in New Phyrexia. Or are you going to start to argue that target life loss is something white can do now, because it was on the white exarch? Moonsilver has fallen angels black ability in white because 1, flavor reasons and 2, delirium implies insanity, and thus a tendency to do things you normally wouldn't.
Angels on Innistrad have drifted from white like New Phyrexia drifted from black. Where once it was their core, it is now only one facet. And this was by choice for creative. They didn't need to drift to become villains, we've actually seen a mono white angelic Inquisition before, as the villains. They specifically chose to highlight the red aspects, such as reckless abandon, anger, and even enjoyment of the destruction.
First off, New Phyrexia is a terrible comparison because it simply branched into other colours. If maybe not for Elesh Norn invading Sheoldred's domain and possibly killing her, it would have still been overwhelmingly Black.
Second, again, why are the majority of angelic spells White if they're supposedly drifting from it? Adding Red to the angels doesn't subtract the White.
Third, I assume that the mono-Red angels are also supposed to be Boros, just simplified to mono-Red for mechanical reasons. This has happened before (Tarkir dragons, for instance). Do note also that at least one of them is Goldnight, the Red/White faction.
Fourth, there is still no evidence of Black angels besides a mechanic that is still within White's scope.
Well established in white, meaning of course that this is the first time a white creature (or spell) has ever sacrificed other creatures to make itself bigger. Nice job.
You assume the mono red Angels are actually supposed to be Boros. Oh well, who am I to argue with your head canon.
Adding red doesn't subtract from white, but it does DRIFT from it. Angels were centered in mono white, and now are centered in Boros. Mono white and Boros have different ideals and approaches. It should be pretty clear that moving from mono white to Boros is a drift, but I'll break it down for you. Consider a color pair as a spectrum, with each color being an extreme and the pair in balance being the middle. Avacyn's Angels started at the white extreme, and are currently sitting near the middle, a little bit to the white side. This means they drifted away from white to Boros favoring white a bit. Similarly, Phyrexia drifted from black to rainbow favoring black, potentially drifting further to favoring white if Norn was truly successful.
BTW, only Atarka and Kol's broods were red. I dare you to point out anything red in the others.
I also made no claim to black angels, so try not to make things up. I claimed that a black ability was intentionally bled into white to recall a historic black angel.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'm sorry, but giving a white creature a black ability IS drifting from white. At the very least, they are bleeding the color pie for flavor reasons, specifically to evoke a black card. Thanks for continuing to ignore the mono red angels though. And I never brought up Avacyn.
The point, BTW, is that they very much are drifting from mono white, and we are seeing both mono red angels and Angel related spells, and black abilities on angel cards.
Bleeds are still part of the color. It's not something White can't do, it's something that it does rarely. Maybe the card was designed to invoke Fallen ANgel, but it's by no means something mono-White is barred from. If this is your evidence for angels shifting away from White, I'm sorry to say that it's very flimsy.
I'm going to be forgiving and assume you've just forgotten about my previous addressals on the set's Red angels. Because, otherwise, that statement would be very hypocritical on your part.
You never addressed the mono reds in this thread. You addressed Avacyn being R/W. Save me your condescending tone, because you haven't earned it.
Angels went from being mono white except for the powerpuff girls, to being solidly boros with hints of black abilities, which are bled for flavor reasons the same way they were in New Phyrexia. Or are you going to start to argue that target life loss is something white can do now, because it was on the white exarch? Moonsilver has fallen angels black ability in white because 1, flavor reasons and 2, delirium implies insanity, and thus a tendency to do things you normally wouldn't.
Angels on Innistrad have drifted from white like New Phyrexia drifted from black. Where once it was their core, it is now only one facet. And this was by choice for creative. They didn't need to drift to become villains, we've actually seen a mono white angelic Inquisition before, as the villains. They specifically chose to highlight the red aspects, such as reckless abandon, anger, and even enjoyment of the destruction.
First off, New Phyrexia is a terrible comparison because it simply branched into other colours. If maybe not for Elesh Norn invading Sheoldred's domain and possibly killing her, it would have still been overwhelmingly Black.
Second, again, why are the majority of angelic spells White if they're supposedly drifting from it? Adding Red to the angels doesn't subtract the White.
Third, I assume that the mono-Red angels are also supposed to be Boros, just simplified to mono-Red for mechanical reasons. This has happened before (Tarkir dragons, for instance). Do note also that at least one of them is Goldnight, the Red/White faction.
Fourth, there is still no evidence of Black angels besides a mechanic that is still within White's scope.
Well established in white, meaning of course that this is the first time a white creature (or spell) has ever sacrificed other creatures to make itself bigger. Nice job.
You assume the mono red Angels are actually supposed to be Boros. Oh well, who am I to argue with your head canon.
Adding red doesn't subtract from white, but it does DRIFT from it. Angels were centered in mono white, and now are centered in Boros. Mono white and Boros have different ideals and approaches. It should be pretty clear that moving from mono white to Boros is a drift, but I'll break it down for you. Consider a color pair as a spectrum, with each color being an extreme and the pair in balance being the middle. Avacyn's Angels started at the white extreme, and are currently sitting near the middle, a little bit to the white side. This means they drifted away from white to Boros favoring white a bit. Similarly, Phyrexia drifted from black to rainbow favoring black, potentially drifting further to favoring white if Norn was truly successful.
BTW, only Atarka and Kol's broods were red. I dare you to point out anything red in the others.
I also made no claim to black angels, so try not to make things up. I claimed that a black ability was intentionally bled into white to recall a historic black angel.
Considering every other card in this new Red/White faction is a mixture of Red and White or mono-White, and considering how Maro emphasis the adherence of iconics to their colour, it's all but stated.
Tarkir is stated to be a plane overall leading towards Red, the clans are by default dual colour, and dragons are Red's iconic. Do the math.
For a more obvious example, however, see guild mono-coloured cards; there's no way mono-Green tolerates Simic ideology, and yet there are many Simic mono-Green cards. O rlook at Feyalise, a Red/Green planeswalker, simplified into mono-Green. Sometimes, mechanics need some deviance from canon.
Bleeds are still part of the color. It's not something White can't do, it's something that it does rarely. Maybe the card was designed to invoke Fallen ANgel, but it's by no means something mono-White is barred from. If this is your evidence for angels shifting away from White, I'm sorry to say that it's very flimsy.
I'm going to be forgiving and assume you've just forgotten about my previous addressals on the set's Red angels. Because, otherwise, that statement would be very hypocritical on your part.
You never addressed the mono reds in this thread. You addressed Avacyn being R/W. Save me your condescending tone, because you haven't earned it.
Angels went from being mono white except for the powerpuff girls, to being solidly boros with hints of black abilities, which are bled for flavor reasons the same way they were in New Phyrexia. Or are you going to start to argue that target life loss is something white can do now, because it was on the white exarch? Moonsilver has fallen angels black ability in white because 1, flavor reasons and 2, delirium implies insanity, and thus a tendency to do things you normally wouldn't.
Angels on Innistrad have drifted from white like New Phyrexia drifted from black. Where once it was their core, it is now only one facet. And this was by choice for creative. They didn't need to drift to become villains, we've actually seen a mono white angelic Inquisition before, as the villains. They specifically chose to highlight the red aspects, such as reckless abandon, anger, and even enjoyment of the destruction.
First off, New Phyrexia is a terrible comparison because it simply branched into other colours. If maybe not for Elesh Norn invading Sheoldred's domain and possibly killing her, it would have still been overwhelmingly Black.
Second, again, why are the majority of angelic spells White if they're supposedly drifting from it? Adding Red to the angels doesn't subtract the White.
Third, I assume that the mono-Red angels are also supposed to be Boros, just simplified to mono-Red for mechanical reasons. This has happened before (Tarkir dragons, for instance). Do note also that at least one of them is Goldnight, the Red/White faction.
Fourth, there is still no evidence of Black angels besides a mechanic that is still within White's scope.
Well established in white, meaning of course that this is the first time a white creature (or spell) has ever sacrificed other creatures to make itself bigger. Nice job.
You assume the mono red Angels are actually supposed to be Boros. Oh well, who am I to argue with your head canon.
Adding red doesn't subtract from white, but it does DRIFT from it. Angels were centered in mono white, and now are centered in Boros. Mono white and Boros have different ideals and approaches. It should be pretty clear that moving from mono white to Boros is a drift, but I'll break it down for you. Consider a color pair as a spectrum, with each color being an extreme and the pair in balance being the middle. Avacyn's Angels started at the white extreme, and are currently sitting near the middle, a little bit to the white side. This means they drifted away from white to Boros favoring white a bit. Similarly, Phyrexia drifted from black to rainbow favoring black, potentially drifting further to favoring white if Norn was truly successful.
BTW, only Atarka and Kol's broods were red. I dare you to point out anything red in the others.
I also made no claim to black angels, so try not to make things up. I claimed that a black ability was intentionally bled into white to recall a historic black angel.
Considering every other card in this new Red/White faction is a mixture of Red and White or mono-White, and considering how Maro emphasis the adherence of iconics to their colour, it's all but stated.
Tarkir is stated to be a plane overall leading towards Red, the clans are by default dual colour, and dragons are Red's iconic. Do the math.
For a more obvious example, however, see guild mono-coloured cards; there's no way mono-Green tolerates Simic ideology, and yet there are many Simic mono-Green cards. O rlook at Feyalise, a Red/Green planeswalker, simplified into mono-Green. Sometimes, mechanics need some deviance from canon.
Wow, terrible arguments.
You couldn't show any proof of the non-red dragon broods being red, so you just go "well, dragons are reds iconic, so do the math" as if its a legitimate argument. Great job.
Your argument about every card in the R/W Angel faction being either multi color or mono white is just flat out wrong. I count 6 white spells, 5 red, and Avacyn as Boros. There is additionally 1 white spell related to Sigarda, and Sig herself in GW, and they aren't part of Avacyn's faction. So yeah, it went from white to Boros leaning slightly white (as in, by 1 card), like I said. In terms of actual ANGELS, there are 2 white, 2 red, and Avacyn as Boros, a down the middle split (again, excluding Sig, as she is not a part of that faction). The red spells, by the way, are completely red in effect. Forget your head canon and focus on what is actually there.
And your argument about the Simic is hilarious. Mono Green absolutely can be OK with evolution. Mono Green can also be opposed to the Simic. How can this be? Because each color has different aspects, and parts of Green absolutely support what Simic is all about, which is evolution and strengthening nature. Other facets of Green, those parts that favor tradition and hate change, would be against it, but those facets aren't present in the mono green parts of Simic. Hey, guess what, you could make the same argument about Avacyn's angels! Parts of white would be OK with mass destruction in the name of purity, but other facets of white, such as a mono white character that values protecting the weak, would oppose it as it contradicts other white values. Even most white villains would be opposed to enjoyment of the task that Avacyn's angels are displaying.
Your argument with regards to Freyalise is the only thing you posted with any merit, but it also undermines your argument. You are trying to claim there that the mono red angels (and spells) are only that way for mechanical reasons. Lets go ahead and pretend that's true, and that they are actually Boros. How about the white ones then? They must be actually Boros as well, and they are only mono white for mechanical reasons! I only used the same leap of logic that you did, so its every bit as valid as your conjecture. Guess where that leaves us? With the angels having drifted from white to Boros, just like I said!
Really, at this point, given the evidence, the faction has drifted from white to Boros. Saying that they are really still a mostly mono white faction that has a tiny bit of red in it is just baseless speculation until we get an official statement saying that.
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Create a new thread if you want to argue color bleed beyond the Angels of Innistrad. You're straying too far from the topic here, and mechanical color bleed isn't a true storyline issue.
About Reaper of Flight Moonsilver, my theory is a bit different. They are from the WB alligned flight (the one from the dead sister). Since the dead sister was consorting with demons, it is plausible that:
1) they seep into black, as much as strictly W Orzhov cards seep into black sometimes.
2) they are not actually corrupted by Avacyn's madness because to corrupt Bruna and Gisela Avacyn had to mke the effort to convince them in person, while the dead sister is supposedly dead with all her flight.
I don't even know if Creative is going to expand further on the background of The Lost Fourth Sister (maybe they will in Eldritch Moon *shrugs*), but it would be interesting to see what a WB base Flight would be tasked to do in a "Normal Environment" seeing that most Angels that lean to the righteous side of W don't dabble with Black.
Maybe the W part of the Fourth Sister was realized when she consorted with demons. Maybe this 4th one was some sort of a renegade amongst the Powerpuff sisters or something.
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
About Reaper of Flight Moonsilver, my theory is a bit different. They are from the WB alligned flight (the one from the dead sister). Since the dead sister was consorting with demons, it is plausible that:
1) they seep into black, as much as strictly W Orzhov cards seep into black sometimes.
2) they are not actually corrupted by Avacyn's madness because to corrupt Bruna and Gisela Avacyn had to mke the effort to convince them in person, while the dead sister is supposedly dead with all her flight.
I don't even know if Creative is going to expand further on the background of The Lost Fourth Sister (maybe they will in Eldritch Moon *shrugs*), but it would be interesting to see what a WB base Flight would be tasked to do in a "Normal Environment" seeing that most Angels that lean to the righteous side of W don't dabble with Black.
Maybe the W part of the Fourth Sister was realized when she consorted with demons. Maybe this 4th one was some sort of a renegade amongst the Powerpuff sisters or something.
So far, I believe most of our info comes from Sigarda herself. The sense I got from her UR was that the other powerpuffs always disapproved of her methods, but believed that she was acting for the right reasons, and it took her actually making a pact with a demon for them to allow Avacyn to "deal with her" (it should be noted that the powerpuff girls denounced her when she made the pact and considered it crossing a line, and made no attempt to stop Avacyn, but did not participate, so we don't have any confirmation that she's actually dead). It seems that, like the other sisters, she was interested in protecting humanity, an like the other sisters, she took her own approach. Gisela focuses on martial prowess and leading organized flights to war against large numbers of monsters, Sigarda focuses on sending the members of her flight out to be an on site, hands on presence to protect humanity on the small scale (sending an angel or two to watch over a village or particular stretch of road), and Bruna focuses on protective wards (hence her enchantment theme) that provide protection without committing forces on site. It seems like, based on what we got from the UR, that Blackpuff was a pragmatist, willing to accept a certain level of terror and monsters if it meant humanity was reasonably safe (i.e. under no threat of extinction), and willing to work with monsters to take out other monsters. From the UR, we don't have enough information to tell if the demonic pact was just her making a practical deal for the greater good (maybe ceding some territory or souls to the demon in exchange for him fighting other demons) and that the act, regardless of intent, was a bridge too far for the others or if, in her years of working on the edge, she began to desire power, and her pact was more self serving. I really hope she shows up in the next set, or in a Commander expansion with backstory (possible if she's dead, and I think its clear that people want her).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I guess rather then opening a thread with a similar title, i'll ask here first:
Would anyone mind answering a few quick questions about the Angels on innistrad, that the Wiki didn't answer for me?
Specifically:
- Can all (or some) Angels wield magic? Some of the new spells pretty distinctly show them throw fire around but is that something they can all do?
- Where exactly do the angels come from, that didn't have any markov-related incidents in their bloodline?
- Are they all hearing the voice, or is it just Avacyn and the other angels follow her orders (and do they do so by choice, or are they compelled to follow Avacyn? Sigarda seems to hold out.)
There is nothing indicating that the Angels can't wield magic, and as beings of pure mana it makes sense for them to be able to. Though as with all things each individuals ability differs.
All angles that aren't artificially created by individuals of extreme power are spontaneous generations of mana from the plane.
We don't know if any of the other angels are hearing the same voice as Avacyn or if they have simply been 'convinced' of her goals. Either by coercion or affliction of similar madness. Under normal circumstances they aren't compelled to follow her orders, but her being far more powerful than any of them it makes sense for them to yield to her point.
Yes, angels in canon are actually more or less fields of generating mana. They can use spells, as evidenced by the amount of White spells in this set clearly used by angels.
The story today shows that Tamiyo's surmise is that the warping of Innistrad leylines by Nahiri is likely to cause immense problems with beings of pure mana (like Avacyn).
This would likely mean that the voice in Avacyn's head that reflects her new outlook is actually the result of whatever Nahiri is summoning at the Drownyard.
Yes, angels in canon are actually more or less fields of generating mana. They can use spells, as evidenced by the amount of White spells in this set clearly used by angels.
And the amount of red spells in this set clearly used by angels.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Isn't Reaper of Flight Moonsilver Avacyn's flight of angels? Her weapon is made of the stuff so I assumed that was her flight
Most likely. There was initial speculation that Flight Moonsilver might have been the lost sister's flight that survived the purge, but the fact that it has delirium implies a madness tied to Avacyn, making it likely either Avacyn's made from whatever she gleaned from Sigarda's, or a new flight made by combining all the Angels into one flight, as all of Avacyn's angels now serve one purpose.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I do think that it would be strange to mention the fourth sister so clearly and then not follow through with a card for her at some point (in the next set perhaps).
I'd hoped that the reference to flight Moonsilver was the first Angel of her flight, the herald of a bigger expansion on them in the next set. I don't think it's ever been mentioned that Avacyn had her own flight before? Anyone have any info on this.
As an idea, the fourth sister made a pact with a demon, got thrown into the helavault and, following it's breaking, has been recovering her strength / been living banished in shame / has been awoken by whatever is causing the madness (take your pick).
While I'd love a W/B legendary angel for EDH, the idea of a DFC with the Angel on one side and a possessing demon on the other would just be too perfect!
She could always show up in a supplemental product if she's really dead.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I do think that it would be strange to mention the fourth sister so clearly and then not follow through with a card for her at some point (in the next set perhaps).
There are a ton of named characters who never actually make it to cards. They're doing a better job of ensuring legends are represented as story characters and vice-versa, but there is no reason to assume the fourth sister will make it to a card, especially if she's dead (for instance, Asha is also dead but a major figure in Alara's history).
You never addressed the mono reds in this thread. You addressed Avacyn being R/W. Save me your condescending tone, because you haven't earned it.
Angels went from being mono white except for the powerpuff girls, to being solidly boros with hints of black abilities, which are bled for flavor reasons the same way they were in New Phyrexia. Or are you going to start to argue that target life loss is something white can do now, because it was on the white exarch? Moonsilver has fallen angels black ability in white because 1, flavor reasons and 2, delirium implies insanity, and thus a tendency to do things you normally wouldn't.
Angels on Innistrad have drifted from white like New Phyrexia drifted from black. Where once it was their core, it is now only one facet. And this was by choice for creative. They didn't need to drift to become villains, we've actually seen a mono white angelic Inquisition before, as the villains. They specifically chose to highlight the red aspects, such as reckless abandon, anger, and even enjoyment of the destruction.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
First off, New Phyrexia is a terrible comparison because it simply branched into other colours. If maybe not for Elesh Norn invading Sheoldred's domain and possibly killing her, it would have still been overwhelmingly Black.
Second, again, why are the majority of angelic spells White if they're supposedly drifting from it? Adding Red to the angels doesn't subtract the White.
Third, I assume that the mono-Red angels are also supposed to be Boros, just simplified to mono-Red for mechanical reasons. This has happened before (Tarkir dragons, for instance). Do note also that at least one of them is Goldnight, the Red/White faction.
Fourth, there is still no evidence of Black angels besides a mechanic that is still within White's scope.
Well established in white, meaning of course that this is the first time a white creature (or spell) has ever sacrificed other creatures to make itself bigger. Nice job.
You assume the mono red Angels are actually supposed to be Boros. Oh well, who am I to argue with your head canon.
Adding red doesn't subtract from white, but it does DRIFT from it. Angels were centered in mono white, and now are centered in Boros. Mono white and Boros have different ideals and approaches. It should be pretty clear that moving from mono white to Boros is a drift, but I'll break it down for you. Consider a color pair as a spectrum, with each color being an extreme and the pair in balance being the middle. Avacyn's Angels started at the white extreme, and are currently sitting near the middle, a little bit to the white side. This means they drifted away from white to Boros favoring white a bit. Similarly, Phyrexia drifted from black to rainbow favoring black, potentially drifting further to favoring white if Norn was truly successful.
BTW, only Atarka and Kol's broods were red. I dare you to point out anything red in the others.
I also made no claim to black angels, so try not to make things up. I claimed that a black ability was intentionally bled into white to recall a historic black angel.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Considering every other card in this new Red/White faction is a mixture of Red and White or mono-White, and considering how Maro emphasis the adherence of iconics to their colour, it's all but stated.
Tarkir is stated to be a plane overall leading towards Red, the clans are by default dual colour, and dragons are Red's iconic. Do the math.
For a more obvious example, however, see guild mono-coloured cards; there's no way mono-Green tolerates Simic ideology, and yet there are many Simic mono-Green cards. O rlook at Feyalise, a Red/Green planeswalker, simplified into mono-Green. Sometimes, mechanics need some deviance from canon.
Wow, terrible arguments.
You couldn't show any proof of the non-red dragon broods being red, so you just go "well, dragons are reds iconic, so do the math" as if its a legitimate argument. Great job.
Your argument about every card in the R/W Angel faction being either multi color or mono white is just flat out wrong. I count 6 white spells, 5 red, and Avacyn as Boros. There is additionally 1 white spell related to Sigarda, and Sig herself in GW, and they aren't part of Avacyn's faction. So yeah, it went from white to Boros leaning slightly white (as in, by 1 card), like I said. In terms of actual ANGELS, there are 2 white, 2 red, and Avacyn as Boros, a down the middle split (again, excluding Sig, as she is not a part of that faction). The red spells, by the way, are completely red in effect. Forget your head canon and focus on what is actually there.
And your argument about the Simic is hilarious. Mono Green absolutely can be OK with evolution. Mono Green can also be opposed to the Simic. How can this be? Because each color has different aspects, and parts of Green absolutely support what Simic is all about, which is evolution and strengthening nature. Other facets of Green, those parts that favor tradition and hate change, would be against it, but those facets aren't present in the mono green parts of Simic. Hey, guess what, you could make the same argument about Avacyn's angels! Parts of white would be OK with mass destruction in the name of purity, but other facets of white, such as a mono white character that values protecting the weak, would oppose it as it contradicts other white values. Even most white villains would be opposed to enjoyment of the task that Avacyn's angels are displaying.
Your argument with regards to Freyalise is the only thing you posted with any merit, but it also undermines your argument. You are trying to claim there that the mono red angels (and spells) are only that way for mechanical reasons. Lets go ahead and pretend that's true, and that they are actually Boros. How about the white ones then? They must be actually Boros as well, and they are only mono white for mechanical reasons! I only used the same leap of logic that you did, so its every bit as valid as your conjecture. Guess where that leaves us? With the angels having drifted from white to Boros, just like I said!
Really, at this point, given the evidence, the faction has drifted from white to Boros. Saying that they are really still a mostly mono white faction that has a tiny bit of red in it is just baseless speculation until we get an official statement saying that.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
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I don't even know if Creative is going to expand further on the background of The Lost Fourth Sister (maybe they will in Eldritch Moon *shrugs*), but it would be interesting to see what a WB base Flight would be tasked to do in a "Normal Environment" seeing that most Angels that lean to the righteous side of W don't dabble with Black.
Maybe the W part of the Fourth Sister was realized when she consorted with demons. Maybe this 4th one was some sort of a renegade amongst the Powerpuff sisters or something.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
So far, I believe most of our info comes from Sigarda herself. The sense I got from her UR was that the other powerpuffs always disapproved of her methods, but believed that she was acting for the right reasons, and it took her actually making a pact with a demon for them to allow Avacyn to "deal with her" (it should be noted that the powerpuff girls denounced her when she made the pact and considered it crossing a line, and made no attempt to stop Avacyn, but did not participate, so we don't have any confirmation that she's actually dead). It seems that, like the other sisters, she was interested in protecting humanity, an like the other sisters, she took her own approach. Gisela focuses on martial prowess and leading organized flights to war against large numbers of monsters, Sigarda focuses on sending the members of her flight out to be an on site, hands on presence to protect humanity on the small scale (sending an angel or two to watch over a village or particular stretch of road), and Bruna focuses on protective wards (hence her enchantment theme) that provide protection without committing forces on site. It seems like, based on what we got from the UR, that Blackpuff was a pragmatist, willing to accept a certain level of terror and monsters if it meant humanity was reasonably safe (i.e. under no threat of extinction), and willing to work with monsters to take out other monsters. From the UR, we don't have enough information to tell if the demonic pact was just her making a practical deal for the greater good (maybe ceding some territory or souls to the demon in exchange for him fighting other demons) and that the act, regardless of intent, was a bridge too far for the others or if, in her years of working on the edge, she began to desire power, and her pact was more self serving. I really hope she shows up in the next set, or in a Commander expansion with backstory (possible if she's dead, and I think its clear that people want her).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
All angles that aren't artificially created by individuals of extreme power are spontaneous generations of mana from the plane.
We don't know if any of the other angels are hearing the same voice as Avacyn or if they have simply been 'convinced' of her goals. Either by coercion or affliction of similar madness. Under normal circumstances they aren't compelled to follow her orders, but her being far more powerful than any of them it makes sense for them to yield to her point.
The story today shows that Tamiyo's surmise is that the warping of Innistrad leylines by Nahiri is likely to cause immense problems with beings of pure mana (like Avacyn).
This would likely mean that the voice in Avacyn's head that reflects her new outlook is actually the result of whatever Nahiri is summoning at the Drownyard.
And the amount of red spells in this set clearly used by angels.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Most likely. There was initial speculation that Flight Moonsilver might have been the lost sister's flight that survived the purge, but the fact that it has delirium implies a madness tied to Avacyn, making it likely either Avacyn's made from whatever she gleaned from Sigarda's, or a new flight made by combining all the Angels into one flight, as all of Avacyn's angels now serve one purpose.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
She could always show up in a supplemental product if she's really dead.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath