Isn't the inconsistent power level of god-like beings like oldwalkers par for the course? Just like in ancient mythology, where the God of the Old Testament was unable to defeat iron chariots or mortal Diomedes wounding gods Aphrodite and Ares in combat.
Those mythological examples are due to works by separate and unrelated authors. The discrepancies in Oldwalker power is called bad writing.
Don't think it's all that different. On the one hand, often different MTG writers had little to do with each other, and on the other hand in ancient mythology the power level varies wildly within works by the same author, or even the same story. Homer is the perfect example. Massive continuity errors, characters who died later showing up alive and well without any explanation, and wildly varying power levels for both mortals and gods alike.
Isn't the inconsistent power level of god-like beings like oldwalkers par for the course? Just like in ancient mythology, where the God of the Old Testament was unable to defeat iron chariots or mortal Diomedes wounding gods Aphrodite and Ares in combat.
Those mythological examples are due to works by separate and unrelated authors. The discrepancies in Oldwalker power is called bad writing.
Don't think it's all that different. On the one hand, often different MTG writers had little to do with each other, and on the other hand in ancient mythology the power level varies wildly within works by the same author, or even the same story. Homer is the perfect example. Massive continuity errors, characters who died later showing up alive and well without any explanation, and wildly varying power levels for both mortals and gods alike.
Oh yeah I wasn't saying that it's a good thing when it comes to mythology. The thing is, many myths were told through oral tradition or hot telephoned into different stories. MTG has only ever been written in the modern age and the lore is written down. So if there's a continuity error between two books then it stands to reason that the author of the newer one either didn't read the previous one at all or well enough or made a mistake.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
I think some of the reason Oldwalkers were so inconsistent in terms of power is because we very rarely saw them ever use the power well. Look at Urza, he never really mastered magic in the way that Jace or Chandra have Illusion/Fire. Urza's first solution is always in artifice.
Also the death's of most old-walkers come at the hands of people abusing the loophole in the "no body" thing. While the Physical form of a planeswalker is not at all important to their survival, mentally it is something that they maintain without thinking, something of an involuntary habit that they have, the example with Ki'rrik is a very good example of some one very actively abusing it. His "Almost killing Urza" was a matter of him keeping Urza physically and mentally off balance enough to neutralize him, I think it is stated somewhere in Timestreams that if Ki'rrik had physically damaged Urza's body any more than he had (Continually disemboweling him IIRC) It would have been possible that Urza could have gained a moment of clarity and walked away.
And mind you I think Ki'rrik did it with a Falcon Machine of Urza's own design.
In Regards to making Planes : I think it is stated that any old-walker could have done it, but most did not because it was a great deal of effort and required the planeswalker to return and maintain the plane. Could you see Leshrac or Tevesh Szat actually spending time and care cultivating a plane?
A lot of it comes down to bad writing, honestly. NeoWalkers are more developed. Old walkers... never really used their power much. They either did grand spells (IE: The Worldspell) that happen mostly off camera, or they basically act like NeoWalkers. I think the real big difference is that NeoWalkers are much more mortal. The Mending was less about reducing power levels (since, as Nissa demonstrates, if the story wants a big flashy old-walker power they can do that anyway) and more about making Walkers fragile.
Old Walkers nearly die constantly, but they actually die very infrequently. They're really hard to kill and the Lore makes it sound like they're supposed to be even harder to kill than they are. The point of NeoWalkers was more "Lets have a lot of much weaker things, even if on camera the difference isn't that great."
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
If by the worldspell you mean Freyalize Shattering the Shard that did happen on camera (years after the set mind you) in the Ice Age books.
She used Jodah's Mirror and was so nice..that she cursed it after he very nicely agreed to lend it to her. She also forced him to help dissipate the blast with his warp pipe cave things.
I think we can put one of the major points of "Oldwalker vs Newwalker" is that even the good guy Oldwalkers were JERKS.
I think old walkers just have more potential than neo walker. Near immortality + easy mana access can do a lot but you still need the skill/experience/knowledge to use this advantages correctly.
On the topic of plane creation, old walkers can create artificial planes because they have both the time to research the fundamentals on how to make one and the time to actually do it. Its also worth noting that all the artificial planes we have encountered so far are inherently unstable and in will collapse on itself after a period of time. So old walkers might have had the time to do their research but the results are far from perfect. Lastly, I think planes takes an awful long time to make. I am basing this assertion on the creation of Rath. It took probably several centuries to create it. Although it was created via a Phyrexian machinery, still it shows that making one is not something that pops out from the blind eternities in an instant.
On the topic of old walkers' vulnerabilities, Dyfed. Dyfed getting done in with a knife.
I think old walkers just have more potential than neo walker. Near immortality + easy mana access can do a lot but you still need the skill/experience/knowledge to use this advantages correctly.
On the topic of plane creation, old walkers can create artificial planes because they have both the time to research the fundamentals on how to make one and the time to actually do it. Its also worth noting that all the artificial planes we have encountered so far are inherently unstable and in will collapse on itself after a period of time. So old walkers might have had the time to do their research but the results are far from perfect. Lastly, I think planes takes an awful long time to make. I am basing this assertion on the creation of Rath. It took probably several centuries to create it. Although it was created via a Phyrexian machinery, still it shows that making one is not something that pops out from the blind eternities in an instant.
On the topic of old walkers' vulnerabilities, Dyfed. Dyfed getting done in with a knife.
Indeed, this is what is missing out from Magic Higher Ups when they try to force feed to the uninformed people that "OLDWALKERS ARE OVERPOWURRRD LULZ!", it's as handwave-y as their Retcon Sticks. That most of them needed to learn tons of stuff before they could harness such feats, to harness what the Spark gave to them. Unlike most of the Neowalkers now: Oh, he's gifted. Oh, she has an inborn connection to the leylines of the plane!
Heck, we were presented with the juxtaposition of Manatarqua and Daria.
As for the artificial plane making, WOTC also handwaves this a lot IMO, like Oldwalkers can just create planes like that without any hindrances or drawbacks. We already saw how it is not an easy feat not even for an experienced Oldwaker. Serra in the Planeswalker novel almost always had to tend to the plane via her throne room to keep it in check. That and her "Maintaining Slumber" that takes years. No wonder Yawgmoth made Phyrexia as it is, it isn't easy.
At the end of the day, it's really with the writing and their willingness to tie up stuff that they could've done for the Planeswalker power level, they've done this with the HOMELANDS comics before with Feroz and Serra, they're reminiscent of Neowalkers now without the Mending.
But eh, it seems they did not want to do the work and wanted an easy way with handling the transition to introducing Planeswalker cards.
You are overblowing Urza being frequently almost killed.
Urza got his head cut off and it was a minor inconvenience for him. All of these ''great dangers and phyrexian infiltrators'' that chase Urza and
''almost kill him frequently'' have never killed a planeswalker.
To be fair, I'm talking about the Artifacts cycle, which I'm about to finish up.
In Planeswalker, Urza is almost killed while in Phyrexia, and by Gix, and numerous times by Phyrexians following him and Xantcha.
In Timestreams, he's nearly killed by Kerrick's mini-Phyrexia twice, and Radiant does in fact nearly kill him, yanking out his powerstones.
How is he almost killed?
As we've seen you can't kill him unless you take out the stones as well meaning that any other way to
kill him would ultimately result in failure.
Be so kind and read the books yourself thoroughly, and then come to discuss.
- in Timestreams, he is gravely wounded by the hijacked falcon engines, who cut his flesh so rapidly that he must divert everything to healing himself. He is totally neutralized, unable to do anything else. If he was caught in the same torrent of fire that Kristina, when she was "by accident" immolated by Szat, he would perish as well.
- He was also totally at the mercy of Yavimaya. If the forest had decided to assimilate him, he would be powerless.
- If Xantcha and Ratepe did not sacrifice themselves, Gix would kill him.
- If Radiant was not so curious and did not put the stones together, he would die.
- Saying "cutting his head off was a minor inconvenience" is utter nonsense. He was not able to regenerate his body anymore, his essence diminished by the soul-cutting halberd. Frankly, he would probably die outright if not for the second planeswalker spark in Glacian's stones.
There you go.
thank you. it seems like everyone is quick to say old walkers were basically gods (and this includes wotc/brady in why they were changed) but everyone forgets that they weren't. they were easy to kill, the writing staff just got lazy and kept making them more and more powerful as sets went on without any thought.
Judging from the wiki article about Serra's realm (no clue how accurate it is) making planes was not something every oldwalker could do. Urza learned how it could be done from Serra while on her plane but decided that is was too power consuming for his plans. Bolas also doesn't seems to have any big troubles maintaining his meditation plane, so maybe it just not worth the trouble for Neowalkers? Assuming the spark ignites early in life like it did for Kytheon or Chandra, it takes another decade to fully master your magic and maybe another decade to construct a plane. By the time the first inhabitants of the new world start building villages the neowalker dies of old age and the plane collapses. Not much point in building a world unless you are going to live for a couple hundred years.
You also have to put into consideration that Nicol Bolas was already incredibly powerful before he became an oldwalker, he was already an Elder Dragon.
Add to that, I don't think his meditation realm doesn't need that much of a precise tending like Serra's because IIRC, there are no inhabitants there and what not and it's not as complex with life.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
You are overblowing Urza being frequently almost killed.
Urza got his head cut off and it was a minor inconvenience for him. All of these ''great dangers and phyrexian infiltrators'' that chase Urza and
''almost kill him frequently'' have never killed a planeswalker.
To be fair, I'm talking about the Artifacts cycle, which I'm about to finish up.
In Planeswalker, Urza is almost killed while in Phyrexia, and by Gix, and numerous times by Phyrexians following him and Xantcha.
In Timestreams, he's nearly killed by Kerrick's mini-Phyrexia twice, and Radiant does in fact nearly kill him, yanking out his powerstones.
How is he almost killed?
As we've seen you can't kill him unless you take out the stones as well meaning that any other way to
kill him would ultimately result in failure.
Be so kind and read the books yourself thoroughly, and then come to discuss.
- in Timestreams, he is gravely wounded by the hijacked falcon engines, who cut his flesh so rapidly that he must divert everything to healing himself. He is totally neutralized, unable to do anything else. If he was caught in the same torrent of fire that Kristina, when she was "by accident" immolated by Szat, he would perish as well.
- He was also totally at the mercy of Yavimaya. If the forest had decided to assimilate him, he would be powerless.
- If Xantcha and Ratepe did not sacrifice themselves, Gix would kill him.
- If Radiant was not so curious and did not put the stones together, he would die.
- Saying "cutting his head off was a minor inconvenience" is utter nonsense. He was not able to regenerate his body anymore, his essence diminished by the soul-cutting halberd. Frankly, he would probably die outright if not for the second planeswalker spark in Glacian's stones.
There you go.
thank you. it seems like everyone is quick to say old walkers were basically gods (and this includes wotc/brady in why they were changed) but everyone forgets that they weren't. they were easy to kill, the writing staff just got lazy and kept making them more and more powerful as sets went on without any thought.
Eh, having a very clear if hard to take advantage of weakness, Yawgmoth, Ki'rik and Tevesh Szat all exploited that one weakness which was that planeswalkers while not needing a physical form are still hardwired to maintain it so they go all Blue Screen of Doom when you damage it.
Does the Mending affect non-walker mages/monsters/creatures with an affinity for supernatural powers too? Perhaps this watering down does affect all? But more pronounced in a walker; the bigger you are the harder you fall.
We also should understand that Modern worlds have suffered from a number of catastrophes and apocalypses. Many worlds have been reset. Which means, lore, history, culture, books, practices, spells were lost.
Before Urza ascended, the period/era he lived in was akin to the Renaissance. People, culture, power, knowledge, technology, etc, were at its peak. This was the age where even non-sparkly things can be transported through the Blind Eternities. There was even a rocket launcher!
Think about it. It all makes sense. Look at Thran Dynamo of yesteryear, and look at Hedron Archive. Same cmc (assuming production costs), but different output of power. But it's all lost now. People are staring to rebuild from scratch.
What I'm saying is that Urza's foes were of almost equal threat. Gix (for example) was possibly more formidable than all New Phyrexia's praetors combined.
Despite all the powers that oldwalkers have, some have already mentioned of their madness. Many of them have a child's mind; petty, selfish, uncaring. And more often than not hubris sets in. Their state of mind cannot keep up/adjust according to their all-powerful might.
Psychological warfare was also used on Urza, on top of brandishing godlike destruction. Do we see that amount of stress we had had on neowalkers today? I don't believe so.
Yawgmoth was taken to Phyrexia by a planeswalker, he scrambled her brain trying to find what created her spark and just created a regeneration damage loop for infinite immortality in pain. Eventually Rebec freed her and let her die in peace. Besides, Ugin is an Oldwalker in cardboard form as well as Freyalise. At this point, they were demigods and now they're superheroes. Relatively the same thing, except immortality.
The thing you got to remember is near omnipotence means much less without omniscience. While their bodies essentially became mana and powers increased when they ascended their minds remained the same. The same knowledge set, the same idiosyncrasies, the same very human (or dragonic etc) flaws. They weren't gods so much as humans given the power of almost gods.
They also often fought others of immense power so things were less often decided by brute strength since both sides had it in spades but more with cunning and tactics or exploiting weaknesses or planning/building up power/spells/artifacts of even greater power than they can summon on command. Because sure they could create entire planes but it's not like it was a snap of the fingers. It took planning, time and know how.
Also a big part of it is they were brought in when Magic was still rather young. So what exactly they were would naturally evolve. Then you add in different writers bringing their image not even knowing other peoples. Even today with easy access to stuff via the internet tracking down all the various sources of lore is difficult can only imagine how bad it would be back then. So basically anyone writing anything powerful that could travel planes was a walker pretty much. This obviously leads to power imbalances and such
Oldwalkers were essentially gods with mortal minds, if they believed they could be killed than they could be. Most of the time Urza still saw himself as "mortal" but he also constantly forgot to breathe(or blink) and since he never thought "oh no, I'm going to suffocate" it simply didn't affect him. Only when oldwalkers thought themselves vulnerable were they such. The only reason Urza didn't simply walk into Phyrexia and nuke the place was because he believed them to be more powerful than they were and he less so, He decided he needed an edge either his artifacts or his bloodlines project. In the end what defeated Yawgmoth was throwing more white mana at him than anyone could possibly had needed over a thousand lifetimes, a feat any oldwalker could have done with access to the infinite mana of the blind eternities.
Creating planes did not necessarily require a huge upkeep to maintain, Phyrexia was created long before Yawgmoth and never again had a planeswalker managing it. Mirrodin's creator left pretty soon after it was made and with the wonky timelines involved with mirrodin it was around for "thousands" of years without Karn.
I can agree that it is pretty hard to tell how powerful neowalkers are in comparison but that's only becuase we're dealing with MAGIC. Whatever feats they perform are beyond mortal measure by virtue of this being fantasy. In DnD campaigns people regularly kill "Gods" and it's not because the characters are necessarily on equal footings with them but because we as characters are cheating the system. We make the gods fight in a predictable way and give them exploitable weaknesses, we come up with unique ways to use abilities to abuse rules that we made ourselves. If oldwalkers walked around constantly in combat readiness and didn't have all those mortal faults convieniently left behind after their ignition you'd only see them die to more clever oldwalkers.
Neowalkers have very real and very harsh limitations. They are not immortal and do not have any more special protection than your average mage/warrior. They have a limit to how much mana they can wield barring plot devices(funneling an entire planes mana through 2 walkers). They still require all normal bodily functions i.e. eating, sleeping, exercise, recovery. Walking requires effort and time for neowalkers. Being in the Blind Eternities is taxing to them.
Oldwalkers were magnitudes more powerful than neowalkers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Don't think it's all that different. On the one hand, often different MTG writers had little to do with each other, and on the other hand in ancient mythology the power level varies wildly within works by the same author, or even the same story. Homer is the perfect example. Massive continuity errors, characters who died later showing up alive and well without any explanation, and wildly varying power levels for both mortals and gods alike.
-Chandra Nalaar
Also the death's of most old-walkers come at the hands of people abusing the loophole in the "no body" thing. While the Physical form of a planeswalker is not at all important to their survival, mentally it is something that they maintain without thinking, something of an involuntary habit that they have, the example with Ki'rrik is a very good example of some one very actively abusing it. His "Almost killing Urza" was a matter of him keeping Urza physically and mentally off balance enough to neutralize him, I think it is stated somewhere in Timestreams that if Ki'rrik had physically damaged Urza's body any more than he had (Continually disemboweling him IIRC) It would have been possible that Urza could have gained a moment of clarity and walked away.
And mind you I think Ki'rrik did it with a Falcon Machine of Urza's own design.
In Regards to making Planes : I think it is stated that any old-walker could have done it, but most did not because it was a great deal of effort and required the planeswalker to return and maintain the plane. Could you see Leshrac or Tevesh Szat actually spending time and care cultivating a plane?
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
Old Walkers nearly die constantly, but they actually die very infrequently. They're really hard to kill and the Lore makes it sound like they're supposed to be even harder to kill than they are. The point of NeoWalkers was more "Lets have a lot of much weaker things, even if on camera the difference isn't that great."
She used Jodah's Mirror and was so nice..that she cursed it after he very nicely agreed to lend it to her. She also forced him to help dissipate the blast with his warp pipe cave things.
I think we can put one of the major points of "Oldwalker vs Newwalker" is that even the good guy Oldwalkers were JERKS.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
On the topic of plane creation, old walkers can create artificial planes because they have both the time to research the fundamentals on how to make one and the time to actually do it. Its also worth noting that all the artificial planes we have encountered so far are inherently unstable and in will collapse on itself after a period of time. So old walkers might have had the time to do their research but the results are far from perfect. Lastly, I think planes takes an awful long time to make. I am basing this assertion on the creation of Rath. It took probably several centuries to create it. Although it was created via a Phyrexian machinery, still it shows that making one is not something that pops out from the blind eternities in an instant.
On the topic of old walkers' vulnerabilities, Dyfed. Dyfed getting done in with a knife.
Indeed, this is what is missing out from Magic Higher Ups when they try to force feed to the uninformed people that "OLDWALKERS ARE OVERPOWURRRD LULZ!", it's as handwave-y as their Retcon Sticks. That most of them needed to learn tons of stuff before they could harness such feats, to harness what the Spark gave to them. Unlike most of the Neowalkers now: Oh, he's gifted. Oh, she has an inborn connection to the leylines of the plane!
Heck, we were presented with the juxtaposition of Manatarqua and Daria.
As for the artificial plane making, WOTC also handwaves this a lot IMO, like Oldwalkers can just create planes like that without any hindrances or drawbacks. We already saw how it is not an easy feat not even for an experienced Oldwaker. Serra in the Planeswalker novel almost always had to tend to the plane via her throne room to keep it in check. That and her "Maintaining Slumber" that takes years. No wonder Yawgmoth made Phyrexia as it is, it isn't easy.
At the end of the day, it's really with the writing and their willingness to tie up stuff that they could've done for the Planeswalker power level, they've done this with the HOMELANDS comics before with Feroz and Serra, they're reminiscent of Neowalkers now without the Mending.
But eh, it seems they did not want to do the work and wanted an easy way with handling the transition to introducing Planeswalker cards.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
thank you. it seems like everyone is quick to say old walkers were basically gods (and this includes wotc/brady in why they were changed) but everyone forgets that they weren't. they were easy to kill, the writing staff just got lazy and kept making them more and more powerful as sets went on without any thought.
You also have to put into consideration that Nicol Bolas was already incredibly powerful before he became an oldwalker, he was already an Elder Dragon.
Add to that, I don't think his meditation realm doesn't need that much of a precise tending like Serra's because IIRC, there are no inhabitants there and what not and it's not as complex with life.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Eh, having a very clear if hard to take advantage of weakness, Yawgmoth, Ki'rik and Tevesh Szat all exploited that one weakness which was that planeswalkers while not needing a physical form are still hardwired to maintain it so they go all Blue Screen of Doom when you damage it.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
We also should understand that Modern worlds have suffered from a number of catastrophes and apocalypses. Many worlds have been reset. Which means, lore, history, culture, books, practices, spells were lost.
Before Urza ascended, the period/era he lived in was akin to the Renaissance. People, culture, power, knowledge, technology, etc, were at its peak. This was the age where even non-sparkly things can be transported through the Blind Eternities. There was even a rocket launcher!
Think about it. It all makes sense. Look at Thran Dynamo of yesteryear, and look at Hedron Archive. Same cmc (assuming production costs), but different output of power. But it's all lost now. People are staring to rebuild from scratch.
What I'm saying is that Urza's foes were of almost equal threat. Gix (for example) was possibly more formidable than all New Phyrexia's praetors combined.
Despite all the powers that oldwalkers have, some have already mentioned of their madness. Many of them have a child's mind; petty, selfish, uncaring. And more often than not hubris sets in. Their state of mind cannot keep up/adjust according to their all-powerful might.
Psychological warfare was also used on Urza, on top of brandishing godlike destruction. Do we see that amount of stress we had had on neowalkers today? I don't believe so.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
They also often fought others of immense power so things were less often decided by brute strength since both sides had it in spades but more with cunning and tactics or exploiting weaknesses or planning/building up power/spells/artifacts of even greater power than they can summon on command. Because sure they could create entire planes but it's not like it was a snap of the fingers. It took planning, time and know how.
Also a big part of it is they were brought in when Magic was still rather young. So what exactly they were would naturally evolve. Then you add in different writers bringing their image not even knowing other peoples. Even today with easy access to stuff via the internet tracking down all the various sources of lore is difficult can only imagine how bad it would be back then. So basically anyone writing anything powerful that could travel planes was a walker pretty much. This obviously leads to power imbalances and such
Creating planes did not necessarily require a huge upkeep to maintain, Phyrexia was created long before Yawgmoth and never again had a planeswalker managing it. Mirrodin's creator left pretty soon after it was made and with the wonky timelines involved with mirrodin it was around for "thousands" of years without Karn.
I can agree that it is pretty hard to tell how powerful neowalkers are in comparison but that's only becuase we're dealing with MAGIC. Whatever feats they perform are beyond mortal measure by virtue of this being fantasy. In DnD campaigns people regularly kill "Gods" and it's not because the characters are necessarily on equal footings with them but because we as characters are cheating the system. We make the gods fight in a predictable way and give them exploitable weaknesses, we come up with unique ways to use abilities to abuse rules that we made ourselves. If oldwalkers walked around constantly in combat readiness and didn't have all those mortal faults convieniently left behind after their ignition you'd only see them die to more clever oldwalkers.
Neowalkers have very real and very harsh limitations. They are not immortal and do not have any more special protection than your average mage/warrior. They have a limit to how much mana they can wield barring plot devices(funneling an entire planes mana through 2 walkers). They still require all normal bodily functions i.e. eating, sleeping, exercise, recovery. Walking requires effort and time for neowalkers. Being in the Blind Eternities is taxing to them.
Oldwalkers were magnitudes more powerful than neowalkers.