MTG Salvation

After consulting with Kaburi and after the fiasco that was BFZ block with so many story spoils, Kaburi and I would like to propose a rules change.

There are currently two pinned discussion threads in storyline. One has 'No Spoilers' in the title, and the other has 'Spoilers' in the title. The difference between these rules is that in a 'No Spoilers' thread, nothing that hasn't officially been revealed in the weekly 'Magic Story' articles can be discussed without using spoiler tags. The conversations can still take place, but we want a thread where people can go if they want to be surprised by the story, even if Wizards seems determined to spoil their own stories.

This post is a poll. If you like this change, vote yes. If you don't like it, vote no. After about a week, Kaburi and I will see what the reaction is and decide on whether or not to implement this rule.

The only thing that I need to ask here is: what will be considered a spoiler?

The fat pack brochure seems like a no-brainer, but what about the cards themselves? Once all cards are released, we know they will spoil major plot points, but is it realistic to have people not talking about the cards? I mean, who reads the story and does not see the cards? lol

Its going to be tough man. Its a damned shame how easy it is for magic spoilers to come out ahead of the story. Like, we knew the titans were going to die like... 2 months ago? But only just 3 weeks ago did we actually see them die. Talk about impact being drained.

Quote from Ashiok »

The only thing that I need to ask here is: what will be considered a spoiler?

The fat pack brochure seems like a no-brainer, but what about the cards themselves? Once all cards are released, we know they will spoil major plot points, but is it realistic to have people not talking about the cards? I mean, who reads the story and does not see the cards? lol

I think its a pretty clear line to say "Spoilers are things that didnt get told yet on official magic lore, before the full card spoiler."

You're right, the cards will tell the story through the art like they meant it too, but before than, anything our story lore didnt reveal yet is a spoiler.

Quote from Ashiok »

The only thing that I need to ask here is: what will be considered a spoiler?

The fat pack brochure seems like a no-brainer, but what about the cards themselves? Once all cards are released, we know they will spoil major plot points, but is it realistic to have people not talking about the cards? I mean, who reads the story and does not see the cards? lol

Damn, Ashiok. You are on point this week, lol.

Yeah, I guess we can't really avoid that. If say, the spoiled story image is card art, we can't really avoid it, but I would want to avoid Fatpack/Artbook spoils in just that one thread.

This isn't going to be strictly enforced, unless someone aggressively tries to ruin something for everyone. Most of the time it'll just be a mod spoilering something that should have been spoilered in the first place.

I think this is a really good idea. My only worry is that sometimes it's hard to remember what you know from a spoiler and what was from official sources. Piecing together what's going on on Innistrad currently means pulling all sorts of disparate hints and clues together and it's easy to overlook that some of those snippets might be unofficial. But in principle I completely support this idea.

Quote from MarkXero »

I think this is a really good idea. My only worry is that sometimes it's hard to remember what you know from a spoiler and what was from official sources. Piecing together what's going on on Innistrad currently means pulling all sorts of disparate hints and clues together and it's easy to overlook that some of those snippets might be unofficial. But in principle I completely support this idea.

That's absolutely understandable, and there will be a bit of confusion, but in general if it's like the Art Book, with the ACTUAL ending revealed months in advance, that discussion should be in spoiler tags in the no spoiler thread.

I think it's a bad idea. The assumption is that you come to a website like MtgS to find out more, share, or talk about something that you already knew before hand. We're so connected these days with other forms of social media that spoilers are simply everywhere. The only way to avoid all these is to live in a cave.

Think of this section as a group of detectives wanting to piece together a puzzle. "We have read the reports, here's each and everyone's interpretation of it."

One shouldn't come here unprepared.

My suggestion is to add a disclaimer in the header, that they've already known the gist of things, and wish to find out more.

Quote from Bolas, the Mindsculptor »

I think it's a bad idea. The assumption is that you come to a website like MtgS to find out more, share, or talk about something that you already knew before hand. We're so connected these days with other forms of social media that spoilers are simply everywhere. The only way to avoid all these is to live in a cave.

Think of this section as a group of detectives wanting to piece together a puzzle. "We have read the reports, here's each and everyone's interpretation of it."

One shouldn't come here unprepared.

My suggestion is to add a disclaimer in the header, that they've already known the gist of things, and wish to find out more.

The issue is that MTGS is probably the most active Vorthos community on the web. If people want to come and just talk about the latest article without the end spoiled for them, they should have a thread in which they can do so, don't you think?

Agreed with the Vorthoses (or Vorthosi?) part; otherwise we wouldn't have a storyline thread.

However, with the blatant methodology of our primary source (Wizards), dissemination of info via social media, fatpacks, individual card reveals, means that MtgS tends to be the watering hole for people with prior information. It's not exactly unspoiled. It's like we're pretending to unsee something which we already knew/suspected. The recent art depicting Sorin's act on Avacyn comes to mind. Can we say it's not on social media, podcasts, group chats, people's word of mouth?

Before a purist even turns to MtgS, they're already inundated with these info.

My belief is that Wizards control how info is disseminated. Currently, that's how they roll, by putting the "ending" before it even started. Putting spoiler tags COULD be enforced; but in MaRo's words, never go against human nature. People love to talk, people love to share, unreservedly.

Quote from Bolas, the Mindsculptor »

My belief is that Wizards control how info is disseminated. Currently, that's how they roll, by putting the "ending" before it even started. Putting spoiler tags COULD be enforced; but in MaRo's words, never go against human nature. People love to talk, people love to share, unreservedly.

That's why only the one thread, for discussing the most recent UR, would have this rule.

I agree with this. I find it hard to keep track of story spoilers and which is real or fake. I just want to discuss the story and speculate where it leads based on what we are given.

actually hearing the counter argument I'd like to change my info. MTGS was started as a spoiler site. It's true if people are keeping up with the story on the website then will know the current information and will come here to talk about said information. So i think people should be able to talk about "spoilers" that are a head of that.

I think the official thread should allow spoilers but have a "warning: spoilers". People who dont want that will not do it then. Thats fine.

I do think there should be a rule not to spoil something HUGE without spoiler tags. That would need to be adressed. It needs to be a choice for people to read a spoiler, not just an image thrown on them while reading. We should censor info, we ahould be the first place people go to talk about it. But we should still have respect for others.

I understand where you're coming from, but a couple things:

First, this was founded as a card spoiler site. The people who want to get into the story aren't necessarily going to be as excited for story spoilers are they are for card spoilers, even if the cards spoil some key moments.

Second, your last sentence kind of reinforces what I'm saying. I'm talking about the ending of a story like with OGW, I want to have the Magic Story Articles discussion not leap ahead, and ignore the weekly stories because everyone is arguing about the ending that hasn't happened yet.

Last - Kaburi and I both get PMs from new users who are hesitant to post, and I want to make this more welcoming for them.

We're going against human nature. The problem isn't us; it's that Wizards provided us with the endgame. And NATURALLY, that's what people are talking about. If you take a sample of what's going on in a storyline forum, the typical questions are

-What happens next?
-How is this possible?
-Who is this new character?
-When is <insert_character/set/block/theme> coming back?
-Why is this happening?

What these 5 typical questions have in common is the prior knowledge this people already have.

I'm not so sure about enforcing/policing what people can say or not. It's not censorship, harassment, or any type of written abuse. What you are proposing, as grandiose as it may seem, is a behavioral change. A culture (adding "courtesy" spoiler tags, restricting future set talk, etc) that might take years to inculcate.

The thing is, if spoiler tags were catchy, they would have been the norm ages ago. There must be a compelling reason for the MAJORITY of posters to behave in the proposed way. I'm sure many posters do it via their phones and not through the keyboard. Accessibility is a problem, thumbing through the small fonts and icons is a problem. The culture of "text" -> "send message" is very much established. Many might find it a hassle to say extra, or do anything extra. It's just the way it is.

Bolas, it's one thread where we would ask people to include spoiler tags if they're talking about events that haven't happened yet. I don't think that's unreasonable, especially in a thread that's already meant to talk about the current weekly 'Magic Story', do you? I get where you're coming from, but this argument seems a little hyperbolic.

People do it themselves now to a certain extent, but one of the biggest complaints about BFZ/OGW, besides the obvious, is that people wish the story hand't been spoiled... twice.

I honestly don't see what the issue would be here... it's only one thread. From what it sounds like there would still be a "normal" spoiler thread. Only one clearly labeled special thread would require the special spoiler tags. So it's not like the entire Storyline Subforum would suddenly become policed for properly tagged spoilers.

I would like to add that I use MTGS almost entirely for this particular Vorthosi community, at this point more that I use it as a card spoiler website. Even if MTGS is a card spoiler site first and foremost, there is a good community here built around something besides the card spoilers: a love of the multiverse and its lore. I feel this will not lessen the dialogue on the "normal" thread at all, and will actually improve the community overall by giving those who are hesitant of massive ending spoilers a more apparent place they can be a part of the discussion. I imagine a lot of us will still just use the spoiler thread, but the option can only help. Really it'll impact you, Jay13x, the most by increasing your workload

I would prefer spoiler warning in the heading, one thread. Why split the discussion? One person might be saying something really interesting but not spoilery in the spoiler thread that other readers would miss, or vice versa. What other reasons are there to go to the story thread other than a) to see what the story is up to (thus spoilery) or b) to state your mind on the story (assumes familiarity/up to date with story)?

The BFZ issue with the art book and what not doesn't seem to rise to the level of change that Jay is seeking. My greatest concern is different conversations and discussions split in two threads which makes it really difficult to keep track of interesting points. "Here be Spoilers, ye be warned" should do fine, with mods stepping in in art book situations. Keep it simple.

My largest concern is the double-posting. Do those of us who see all the spoilers decide to post twice (once in the spoiler thread and a second time in the no-spoiler thread)? Does that create two boards in effect? Do we get a splintered community? Or, arguably, we already have one...

The voting stands at about 3-to-1 in favor.

I've read and listened to all of these concerns, but ultimately we're talking about one thread where the discussion is meant to be on the current story anyway.