I wouldn't call that a huge hole. Lili only cared about the demon she needed to kill. Everything else is trivial detail. All kinds of crazy demons and Avacyn were also flying out of there, there was probably chaos and a lot going on.
I get what you're saying, but if Nahiri's presumably sealed in there, it's difficult to imagine that she's one of the weak ones there. I would believe that she's the most powerful presence in Helvault. One might be distracted by all the flying nonsense that's released, but it'd be pretty hard to ignore a walker's aura.
The way the Helvault broke opened, my detail's a little fuzzy. I wonder how they would "come out". Like bursting out like a grenade, so they'll be a little rattled and shaken, or something like merely walking out the door.
At the same time, you'd also think Liliana would've mentioned Nahiri to Jace if she could sense her. Speaking of, who's to say they can sense each other?
Hadn't thought of that. Who can and can't sense other PW? Maybe its just a Sorin thing. Maybe Sorin can no longer sense PW on innistrad without his creations.
Old walkers could sense the Spark but it wasn't a sure thing. Freyalise could sense Jaya's unflared Spark, but though Jodah was the Walker. I don't think NeoWalkers have that Spark sense.
So, after reading the story I came here and after reading post here I had to go back and read the story. What makes people think that Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Helvualt? If not for knowledge that she was alive his last line would lead me to believe that he killed her, or at least let Avacyn kill her. I didn't see anything that would lead me to believe he would seal her. Sealing her in the Helvualt would require a retcon of Teeth of Akoum, so unless it explicitly tells us she was sealed I don't see the point of jumping to a conclusion that requires retconing current lore.
The events of Zendikar -> Rise of the Eldrazi occured long, long, long after Sorin's confrontation with Nahiri on Innistrad. These flashbacks are an extremely old memory.
Nahiri being trapped in the helvault makes sense because we need to explain why Nahiri inexplicably disappeared for the last thousand years and wasn't around to prevent the rise of the eldrazi. Also, they just happened to be fighting next to the thing, and Sorin somehow noticed that Nahiri can't affect the stone of the helvault.
If Sorin knew that Nahiri is sealed off then why he was surprised that Nahiri and Ugin didn't came to Zendikar when the seal were broken by Chandra?
Also there was that bit in the Teeth of Akoum, where Sorin mumbled some female name after he hit his head or something and we were speculating is that the lithomancer's name, but i can't remember which name that was. Was it indeed Nahiri's name?
If Sorin knew that Nahiri is sealed off then why he was surprised that Nahiri and Ugin didn't came to Zendikar when the seal were broken by Chandra?
Also there was that bit in the Teeth of Akoum, where Sorin mumbled some female name after he hit his head or something and we were speculating is that the lithomancer's name, but i can't remember which name that was. Was it indeed Nahiri's name?
That is a problem. If Nahiri is locked in the Helvault, then they either need to retcon Sorin's surprise at not finding Nahiri in Zendikar, or Nahiri needs to be somehow later locked inside without Sorin's knowledge.
Im firmly on board the "Nahiri is in the Helvault" train, really enjoyed this story over all even if I think Olivia is ponce who I'm hoping gets killed off. She's a cool character for sure, I'm just not a vampire fan. Great story though w/ good characterization, lots of interesting information, and Sorin being a badass. Didn't love the pair of cliffhangers we got though
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UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Nahiri and Avacyn in the same place at the same time. Finally 100% confirming Avacyn =/= Nahiri. I know there were still people who thought it possible, hopefully this finally squashes that.
If Sorin knew that Nahiri is sealed off then why he was surprised that Nahiri and Ugin didn't came to Zendikar when the seal were broken by Chandra?
Also there was that bit in the Teeth of Akoum, where Sorin mumbled some female name after he hit his head or something and we were speculating is that the lithomancer's name, but i can't remember which name that was. Was it indeed Nahiri's name?
Nahiri being sealed in the Helvault makes zero sense. Sorin can't be acting all worried that his two buddies aren't there if he know he's got one imprisoned.
First, we are not 100% sure whether he locked her in, and even if he did, we were not told he did it right then.
Second, facts do lead us to believe that he actually imprisoned her there, so i would remind you that back in the original Zendikar the Lithomancer and her story was not a thing. I suspect Sorin's feelings during Teeth of Akoum will be retconned, just like Chandra's story was changed from her book to he origin story.
Also, today's flashback suggests that Sorin lied to Ugin when he asked him Nahiri's whereabouts, mainly to avoid the dragon's reaction i guess.
Excellent story overall. Nahiri's mood change should have happened one-two paragraphs later, but i digress. One thing for sure though, this narration managed to give us more questions than answers!
For one answer, three questions thing all over again, damn you Tamiyo!
Okay so this probably off topic. But how the hell did Sorin get moonsilver from Innistrads moon to make the Helvault? The way i read it makes it sound he literally had to find a way to the moon and back.
Yeah, out of the whole article this one small detail had my attention besides everything else. Well except Sorin going off on Olivia's party attendants or whatever. Is it just me or is anyone else tired off all the prolonged build up? I just hope they get to the big reveal soon so we dont have a repeat of BFZ.
Okay so this probably off topic. But how the hell did Sorin get moonsilver from Innistrads moon to make the Helvault? The way i read it makes it sound he literally had to find a way to the moon and back.
Yeah, out of the whole article this one small detail had my attention besides everything else. Well except Sorin going off on Olivia's party attendants or whatever. Is it just me or is anyone else tired off all the prolonged build up? I just hope they get to the big reveal soon so we dont have a repeat of BFZ.
Well this is premending we are talking about. Also the story seems to imply that he picked up a pick of Nahiri's lithomancy which he used to form the helvault from silver taken from Innistrad's moon.
Well this is premending we are talking about. Also the story seems to imply that he picked up a pick of Nahiri's lithomancy which he used to form the helvault from silver taken from Innistrad's moon.
Indeed. It would appear he used white mana almost exclusively to create his "two part protection" plan.
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I get that Wizards is pretty liberal with their retcons, but does that mean we should 'expect' them? How do we get to a state where the most 'logical' answer is something that either contradicts or at least conflicts with previously established 'fact'? If they retcon so that Nahiri was trapped in the Helvualt and Sorin knew the whole time, thats fine, just another seemingly random retcon on a long chain of seemingly random retcon(Zendikari Vampires as the most recent) but why is a retcon the most 'logical' or 'expected' outcome? Why not something that makes sense with current lore, even if there are minor holes it still feels better than retconing away problems.
I get that Wizards is pretty liberal with their retcons, but does that mean we should 'expect' them? How do we get to a state where the most 'logical' answer is something that either contradicts or at least conflicts with previously established 'fact'? If they retcon so that Nahiri was trapped in the Helvualt and Sorin knew the whole time, thats fine, just another seemingly random retcon on a long chain of seemingly random retcon(Zendikari Vampires as the most recent) but why is a retcon the most 'logical' or 'expected' outcome? Why not something that makes sense with current lore, even if there are minor holes it still feels better than retconing away problems.
As long as its a small retcon, like Sorin knowing something or not, I'll give them a break for any minor retcon before Khans.
Before Khans, the story was handed off to one person who basically decided everything, maybe writing a book or something. Starting with Khans, creative expanded and now we have lots of people carefully crafting the story, collaboratively writing a new story every week, thinking out the story arc, etc. If they want to brush away a minor inconvenient thing before Khans, fine.
I expect them to be consistent with anything that happened in Khans block or later
I get that Wizards is pretty liberal with their retcons, but does that mean we should 'expect' them? How do we get to a state where the most 'logical' answer is something that either contradicts or at least conflicts with previously established 'fact'? If they retcon so that Nahiri was trapped in the Helvualt and Sorin knew the whole time, thats fine, just another seemingly random retcon on a long chain of seemingly random retcon(Zendikari Vampires as the most recent) but why is a retcon the most 'logical' or 'expected' outcome? Why not something that makes sense with current lore, even if there are minor holes it still feels better than retconing away problems.
As long as its a small retcon, like Sorin knowing something or not, I'll give them a break for any minor retcon before Khans.
Before Khans, the story was handed off to one person who basically decided everything, maybe writing a book or something. Starting with Khans, creative expanded and now we have lots of people carefully crafting the story, collaboratively writing a new story every week, thinking out the story arc, etc. If they want to brush away a minor inconvenient thing before Khans, fine.
I expect them to be consistent with anything that happened in Khans block or later
But its not limited to 'before Khans' the inconsistency was continued into Khans so while they are 'small' retcons there are at least two. The one from Teeth of Akoum is way more forgivable than the one in Khans where they continued the 'Sorin doesn't know Nahiri's fate for certain'
Also there is a significant gap between forgiving retcons and expecting them.
What? Sorin's Restoration made it pretty clear that while he told Ugin that he didn't know we, and really Uhin too, could tell he was lying. Ugin even said that Sorin should get over whatever misgivings he has and go fix whatever he did. That's not being retconned were just uncovering Sorin's lie.
What? Sorin's Restoration made it pretty clear that while he told Ugin that he didn't know we, and really Uhin too, could tell he was lying. Ugin even said that Sorin should get over whatever misgivings he has and go fix whatever he did. That's not being retconned were just uncovering Sorin's lie.
While Sorin's Restoration made it clear that he believed he knew where Nahiri was Sorin's Revelation still supports that he doesn't know why she didn't show up on Zendikar. And the Restoration shows that he believed she could have been the one to put Ugin down so she shouldn't have been confined and he was wary of her being there. So if she was sealed and he knew but didn't know she was free he shouldn't have been wary but if she was sealed and he knew she was free he shouldn't think he knows where she is.
The strangest part, after reading the story for the third time, it seems almost as if Sorin didn't expect to find Nahiri on Innistrad but that when he stopped over as he apparently does all the time(original Innistard) his found he home in ruins, in such a away as to have only one possible perpetrator.
So does Sorin know about Tamiyo, Arlinn Kord, and Jace? Seems like he would have confronted each of them if he had.
He's probably already met Arlinn, given her the whole "Innistrad is mine" talk. Same goes for Tamiyo. Not sure about Jace, since he only recently arrived on the plane, and Sorin has been busy with finding Ugin and now Nahiri.
While Sorin's Restoration made it clear that he believed he knew where Nahiri was Sorin's Revelation still supports that he doesn't know why she didn't show up on Zendikar. And the Restoration shows that he believed she could have been the one to put Ugin down so she shouldn't have been confined and he was wary of her being there. So if she was sealed and he knew but didn't know she was free he shouldn't have been wary but if she was sealed and he knew she was free he shouldn't think he knows where she is.
The strangest part, after reading the story for the third time, it seems almost as if Sorin didn't expect to find Nahiri on Innistrad but that when he stopped over as he apparently does all the time(original Innistard) his found he home in ruins, in such a away as to have only one possible perpetrator.
It is possible that Sorin, knowing the Helvault was broken, suspected that Nahiri might have gone straight to Tarkir. We don't know enough to make heads or tails of it at this point.
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I think Sorin only does that to actual planar threats to Innistrad. Which Tamiyo and Jace don't represent. Lilliana I can imagine starting messing around too much, especially killing Angels there like she did last time. I don't blame Sorin.
While Sorin's Restoration made it clear that he believed he knew where Nahiri was Sorin's Revelation still supports that he doesn't know why she didn't show up on Zendikar. And the Restoration shows that he believed she could have been the one to put Ugin down so she shouldn't have been confined and he was wary of her being there. So if she was sealed and he knew but didn't know she was free he shouldn't have been wary but if she was sealed and he knew she was free he shouldn't think he knows where she is.
The strangest part, after reading the story for the third time, it seems almost as if Sorin didn't expect to find Nahiri on Innistrad but that when he stopped over as he apparently does all the time(original Innistard) his found he home in ruins, in such a away as to have only one possible perpetrator.
It is possible that Sorin, knowing the Helvault was broken, suspected that Nahiri might have gone straight to Tarkir. We don't know enough to make heads or tails of it at this point.
If that was the case then he should have no reason to believe he knows where she is, why should she be on Inninstrad if she was free? Which is the exact point I bring up. Unless we assume a retcon Nahiri being in the Helvault doesn't mesh with our current knowledge. Even if it is going to be retconned the major theory shouldn't be expecting or assuming there will be a retcon.
What? Sorin's Restoration made it pretty clear that while he told Ugin that he didn't know we, and really Uhin too, could tell he was lying. Ugin even said that Sorin should get over whatever misgivings he has and go fix whatever he did. That's not being retconned were just uncovering Sorin's lie.
While Sorin's Restoration made it clear that he believed he knew where Nahiri was Sorin's Revelation still supports that he doesn't know why she didn't show up on Zendikar. And the Restoration shows that he believed she could have been the one to put Ugin down so she shouldn't have been confined and he was wary of her being there. So if she was sealed and he knew but didn't know she was free he shouldn't have been wary but if she was sealed and he knew she was free he shouldn't think he knows where she is.
The strangest part, after reading the story for the third time, it seems almost as if Sorin didn't expect to find Nahiri on Innistrad but that when he stopped over as he apparently does all the time(original Innistard) his found he home in ruins, in such a away as to have only one possible perpetrator.
Sorin's Revelation was from the KTK reality, a timeline that, for the purposes of the larger story of mtg, never happened and does not exist. In that timeline Sorin may not have known where Nahiri was, but in this one, the one where the story is happening, and the one where we got Sorin's Restoration, he clearly does. As I said on one of the other threads, Ktk is tricky (time travel and all) but for the purpose of the larger story it's probably easiest to ignore any Non-Sarkhan related ktk lore and only look at the UR from Fate Reforged and DTK. Since KTK, essentially, never happened.
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UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
What? Sorin's Restoration made it pretty clear that while he told Ugin that he didn't know we, and really Uhin too, could tell he was lying. Ugin even said that Sorin should get over whatever misgivings he has and go fix whatever he did. That's not being retconned were just uncovering Sorin's lie.
While Sorin's Restoration made it clear that he believed he knew where Nahiri was Sorin's Revelation still supports that he doesn't know why she didn't show up on Zendikar. And the Restoration shows that he believed she could have been the one to put Ugin down so she shouldn't have been confined and he was wary of her being there. So if she was sealed and he knew but didn't know she was free he shouldn't have been wary but if she was sealed and he knew she was free he shouldn't think he knows where she is.
The strangest part, after reading the story for the third time, it seems almost as if Sorin didn't expect to find Nahiri on Innistrad but that when he stopped over as he apparently does all the time(original Innistard) his found he home in ruins, in such a away as to have only one possible perpetrator.
Sorin's Revelation was from the KTK reality, a timeline that, for the purposes of the larger story of mtg, never happened and does not exist. In that timeline Sorin may not have known where Nahiri was, but in this one, the one where the story is happening, and the one where we got Sorin's Restoration, he clearly does. As I said on one of the other threads, Ktk is tricky (time travel and all) but for the purpose of the larger story it's probably easiest to ignore any Non-Sarkhan related ktk lore and only look at the UR from Fate Reforged and DTK. Since KTK, essentially, never happened.
The time travel part doesn't change the memories of walkers that have no relation to the plane.
If Sorin knows how to make pancakes in the world where Ugin is dead he won't magically forget, because Ugin became alive.
I really don't like the idea that Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Hellvault. Why would he go to find Ugin (who he has no idea if he is alive or dead or on Tarkir at all) when he can go to the Hellvault and get Nahiri first?
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The time travel part doesn't change the memories of walkers that have no relation to the plane.
If Sorin knows how to make pancakes in the world where Ugin is dead he won't magically forget, because Ugin became alive.
I really don't like the idea that Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Hellvault. Why would he go to find Ugin (who he has no idea if he is alive or dead or on Tarkir at all) when he can go to the Hellvault and get Nahiri first?
Debatable, who knows what time travel changes? It is a convenient device for making retcons. We know for sure it changed Sorin's knowledge of Nahiri, between Revelation and Restoration, before he landed on Tarkir.
Judging from this UR, Nahiri was already somewhat hostile to Sorin before whatever happened to her. If Sorin did lock her in the Helvault, which would definitely make her hostile to him, it makes sense he'd rather find Ugin than fetch her.
What? Sorin's Restoration made it pretty clear that while he told Ugin that he didn't know we, and really Uhin too, could tell he was lying. Ugin even said that Sorin should get over whatever misgivings he has and go fix whatever he did. That's not being retconned were just uncovering Sorin's lie.
Maybe. Or maybe Sorin didn't know where Nahiri was then, because right after the Helvault broke open, she planeswalked back to Zendikar and Sorin noticed her leaving, probably thinking she fled, being scared of him.
But of course he also could just not have wanted Ugin to know the truth
I really don't like the idea that Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Hellvault. Why would he go to find Ugin (who he has no idea if he is alive or dead or on Tarkir at all) when he can go to the Hellvault and get Nahiri first?
2 possibilities
- like I said above, maybe Nahiri left Innistrad at that point, so she wasn't accessable right then
- more likely: Nahiri had a beef with Sorin, so I would say it is quite understandable, that he didn't want to deal with her again. Especially after he was, at least partially, responsibly for the Eldrazi going haymaker on Zendikar
Can it be possible that the events in the first innistrad block happened before the events of the first zendikar block?
That would make sense why Sorin might of thought nahiri would show up when the eldrazi broke free.This is of course if she was trapped in the helvault.
This is why a timeline is needed.
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Old walkers could sense the Spark but it wasn't a sure thing. Freyalise could sense Jaya's unflared Spark, but though Jodah was the Walker. I don't think NeoWalkers have that Spark sense.
The events of Zendikar -> Rise of the Eldrazi occured long, long, long after Sorin's confrontation with Nahiri on Innistrad. These flashbacks are an extremely old memory.
Nahiri being trapped in the helvault makes sense because we need to explain why Nahiri inexplicably disappeared for the last thousand years and wasn't around to prevent the rise of the eldrazi. Also, they just happened to be fighting next to the thing, and Sorin somehow noticed that Nahiri can't affect the stone of the helvault.
Also there was that bit in the Teeth of Akoum, where Sorin mumbled some female name after he hit his head or something and we were speculating is that the lithomancer's name, but i can't remember which name that was. Was it indeed Nahiri's name?
That is a problem. If Nahiri is locked in the Helvault, then they either need to retcon Sorin's surprise at not finding Nahiri in Zendikar, or Nahiri needs to be somehow later locked inside without Sorin's knowledge.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
First, we are not 100% sure whether he locked her in, and even if he did, we were not told he did it right then.
Second, facts do lead us to believe that he actually imprisoned her there, so i would remind you that back in the original Zendikar the Lithomancer and her story was not a thing. I suspect Sorin's feelings during Teeth of Akoum will be retconned, just like Chandra's story was changed from her book to he origin story.
Also, today's flashback suggests that Sorin lied to Ugin when he asked him Nahiri's whereabouts, mainly to avoid the dragon's reaction i guess.
Excellent story overall. Nahiri's mood change should have happened one-two paragraphs later, but i digress. One thing for sure though, this narration managed to give us more questions than answers!
For one answer, three questions thing all over again, damn you Tamiyo!
Yeah, out of the whole article this one small detail had my attention besides everything else. Well except Sorin going off on Olivia's party attendants or whatever. Is it just me or is anyone else tired off all the prolonged build up? I just hope they get to the big reveal soon so we dont have a repeat of BFZ.
Gisela,Blade of Goldnight WR
Sigarda,Heron's Grace WG
Indeed. It would appear he used white mana almost exclusively to create his "two part protection" plan.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
RGTron
UGInfect
URStorm
WUBRAd Nauseam
BRGrishoalbrand
URGScapeshift
WBGAbzan Company
WUBRGAmulet Titan
BRGLiving End
WGBogles
As long as its a small retcon, like Sorin knowing something or not, I'll give them a break for any minor retcon before Khans.
Before Khans, the story was handed off to one person who basically decided everything, maybe writing a book or something. Starting with Khans, creative expanded and now we have lots of people carefully crafting the story, collaboratively writing a new story every week, thinking out the story arc, etc. If they want to brush away a minor inconvenient thing before Khans, fine.
I expect them to be consistent with anything that happened in Khans block or later
Also there is a significant gap between forgiving retcons and expecting them.
The strangest part, after reading the story for the third time, it seems almost as if Sorin didn't expect to find Nahiri on Innistrad but that when he stopped over as he apparently does all the time(original Innistard) his found he home in ruins, in such a away as to have only one possible perpetrator.
He's probably already met Arlinn, given her the whole "Innistrad is mine" talk. Same goes for Tamiyo. Not sure about Jace, since he only recently arrived on the plane, and Sorin has been busy with finding Ugin and now Nahiri.
It is possible that Sorin, knowing the Helvault was broken, suspected that Nahiri might have gone straight to Tarkir. We don't know enough to make heads or tails of it at this point.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Sorin's Revelation was from the KTK reality, a timeline that, for the purposes of the larger story of mtg, never happened and does not exist. In that timeline Sorin may not have known where Nahiri was, but in this one, the one where the story is happening, and the one where we got Sorin's Restoration, he clearly does. As I said on one of the other threads, Ktk is tricky (time travel and all) but for the purpose of the larger story it's probably easiest to ignore any Non-Sarkhan related ktk lore and only look at the UR from Fate Reforged and DTK. Since KTK, essentially, never happened.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
The time travel part doesn't change the memories of walkers that have no relation to the plane.
If Sorin knows how to make pancakes in the world where Ugin is dead he won't magically forget, because Ugin became alive.
I really don't like the idea that Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Hellvault. Why would he go to find Ugin (who he has no idea if he is alive or dead or on Tarkir at all) when he can go to the Hellvault and get Nahiri first?
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Check out the Shop Thread
Debatable, who knows what time travel changes? It is a convenient device for making retcons. We know for sure it changed Sorin's knowledge of Nahiri, between Revelation and Restoration, before he landed on Tarkir.
Judging from this UR, Nahiri was already somewhat hostile to Sorin before whatever happened to her. If Sorin did lock her in the Helvault, which would definitely make her hostile to him, it makes sense he'd rather find Ugin than fetch her.
Maybe. Or maybe Sorin didn't know where Nahiri was then, because right after the Helvault broke open, she planeswalked back to Zendikar and Sorin noticed her leaving, probably thinking she fled, being scared of him.
But of course he also could just not have wanted Ugin to know the truth
2 possibilities
- like I said above, maybe Nahiri left Innistrad at that point, so she wasn't accessable right then
- more likely: Nahiri had a beef with Sorin, so I would say it is quite understandable, that he didn't want to deal with her again. Especially after he was, at least partially, responsibly for the Eldrazi going haymaker on Zendikar
That would make sense why Sorin might of thought nahiri would show up when the eldrazi broke free.This is of course if she was trapped in the helvault.
This is why a timeline is needed.