I honestly feel that Olivia's role in this story should have been filled by Arlinn. I really feel like she would have been a much better fit.
On the one hand, I agree that Arlinn might have been a better Battlefield ally thematic fit, when I got to thinking of it, Olivia and the Vampires fit the scene better.
Vampires and Werewolves are both monsters, but they are very different beyond that. Vampires are basically 'civilized monsters', they maintain a veneer of civilized behaviour and activities over their monstrous instincts. Werewolves on the other hand, do not maintain any such veneer. When they wolf out, they are embracing their animalistic wildsides wholeheartedly.
So for the scene in question, where you have two armies meeting to battle a common foe; you need to consider what the Monster Army is like.
With the Vampires, you can believe that Olivia can command hundreds/thousands of blood suckers and be confident that they will all agree and abide by the terms of the alliance.
With the Werewolves, I would find it hard to believe Arlinn could command a similarly sized wolf pack to control themselves that well. Sure she can keep dozens of werewolves under control; but Army sized numbers? That doesn't seem to follow, given the nature of the werewolf.
I honestly like what they're doing with Olivia. She seems to be much more of a chessmaster than one'd expect from a Rakdos character. She sees the chaos and sees the opportunity in it to reaffirm her own position at the expense of an old enemy. I think she does understand the importance of humanity as well; Sorin's belief that vampires would just slaughter all of humanity might be misguided now that you have plenty of old vampires who understand the need for "livestock". That's what this alliance boils down to, Olivia aids her cattle in dealing with the Eldrazis. Due to this, I love the way they portrayed her and she's the highlight in each story she appears in, to me at least.
That said, I'll be happy once this storyline is over with. I hope we'll get another Gisa & Geralf story before curtains call but then NO MORE ELDRAZIS FOR A WHILE please.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
I honestly like what they're doing with Olivia. She seems to be much more of a chessmaster than one'd expect from a Rakdos character. She sees the chaos and sees the opportunity in it to reaffirm her own position at the expense of an old enemy. I think she does understand the importance of humanity as well; Sorin's belief that vampires would just slaughter all of humanity might be misguided now that you have plenty of old vampires who understand the need for "livestock". That's what this alliance boils down to, Olivia aids her cattle in dealing with the Eldrazis. Due to this, I love the way they portrayed her and she's the highlight in each story she appears in, to me at least.
That said, I'll be happy once this storyline is over with. I hope we'll get another Gisa & Geralf story before curtains call but then NO MORE ELDRAZIS FOR A WHILE please.
I had zero issues with Olivia herself in the story. My issue is that it amounted to a cameo. So did Gisela and Sigarda. It was there she is, and then there she goes. I know the usefulness of the meeting, but it's the same problem that's been going around in other mediums of being too focused on set up to be good in of itself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I hope there's something in it for Sigarda. Like, with so many angels having died a lot of aberrant white mana is infused in her or something, bolstering her abilities. I'd love a mono-white Sigarda eventually.
Interestingly, MaRo just said on tumblr that Bruna and Gisela didn't die.... Idk if he read yesterday's story but I assume he knows how the entire plot plays out right...
Why would he know how the plot plays out? I'm not sure if Brisela being alive or not would really matter to design until they do a Return to Return to Innistrad. Though he edited to say that he didn't know the story.
I've always wondered that about that guy you know. He's so into the lore and stories of other games/mediums but he doesn't seem to know too much into the deep lore of mtg. Granted, it is way deep. And of course, it could just be that he's not the ultimate authority on the story so he answers with a lot of political "i'm not sure"s.
It's understandable he knew Nahiri was in the Helvault as they designed a card for her on Innistrad, but not know Brisela died after being mutated as they only designed a melded card for it.
It's understandable he knew Nahiri was in the Helvault as they designed a card for her on Innistrad, but not know Brisela died after being mutated as they only designed a melded card for it.
This. I'm sure he generally knows large story elements. Brisela dying isn't one of them though. Which isn't surprising. Creative isn't where his focus is. And with the focus on Planeswalkers he probably knows what happens to them, but beyond that and broad elements not so much.
To be fair he does know a ton about the older stories as he worked on them, he even helped right the Weatherlight story. Though I think that got changed before printing. But yeah I can be pretty off about the more recent stuff. Like when we found out that initially the result of the implicit maze was to recenter the multiverse around Ravnica because he said it was rather than Dominaria and he later explained it out. It's also important to know that a lot of what he would know is a couple years old by the time we start reading about it.
To be fair he does know a ton about the older stories as he worked on them, he even helped right the Weatherlight story. Though I think that got changed before printing. But yeah I can be pretty off about the more recent stuff. Like when we found out that initially the result of the implicit maze was to recenter the multiverse around Ravnica because he said it was rather than Dominaria and he later explained it out. It's also important to know that a lot of what he would know is a couple years old by the time we start reading about it.
What was that about the Implicit Maze? That sounds kind of interesting.
What was that about the Implicit Maze? That sounds kind of interesting.
Apparently, the original story for RTR was that solving the Implicit Maze would realign the multiverse with Ravnica at its center. They decided to go with the other plan. Likely for the best as I can only imagine the outrage here and elsewhere had that been the case.
What was that about the Implicit Maze? That sounds kind of interesting.
Apparently, the original story for RTR was that solving the Implicit Maze would realign the multiverse with Ravnica at its center. They decided to go with the other plan. Likely for the best as I can only imagine the outrage here and elsewhere had that been the case.
Ravnica is the Jace of the planes so yeah makes sense to change the storyline because that sounds really stupid
What was that about the Implicit Maze? That sounds kind of interesting.
Apparently, the original story for RTR was that solving the Implicit Maze would realign the multiverse with Ravnica at its center. They decided to go with the other plan. Likely for the best as I can only imagine the outrage here and elsewhere had that been the case.
Ravnica is the Jace of the planes so yeah makes sense to change the storyline because that sounds really stupid
Realigning the Multiverse sounds like something that'd require an oldwalker, probably several, and frankly, if Azor I was that powerful, there shouldn't be any reason the Azorius didn't conquer all of Ravnica; who's gonna stop them? The other Guilds should have been ground to dust under the magic that a hypothetical UW oldwalker could unleash against them.
Although... what's been happening on Dominaria since Time Spiral? It feels a bit like Ravnica's supplanted it already in the story, so maybe making it official would have worked, but like I said, it'd probably break the story if they tried it...
What was that about the Implicit Maze? That sounds kind of interesting.
Apparently, the original story for RTR was that solving the Implicit Maze would realign the multiverse with Ravnica at its center. They decided to go with the other plan. Likely for the best as I can only imagine the outrage here and elsewhere had that been the case.
Ravnica is the Jace of the planes so yeah makes sense to change the storyline because that sounds really stupid
Realigning the Multiverse sounds like something that'd require an oldwalker, probably several, and frankly, if Azor I was that powerful, there shouldn't be any reason the Azorius didn't conquer all of Ravnica; who's gonna stop them? The other Guilds should have been ground to dust under the magic that a hypothetical UW oldwalker could unleash against them.
Although... what's been happening on Dominaria since Time Spiral? It feels a bit like Ravnica's supplanted it already in the story, so maybe making it official would have worked, but like I said, it'd probably break the story if they tried it...
In lore we already knew Ravnica was a hotspot plane was is rich and powerful in mana and why many planeswalkers often went there and why their are so many different types of creatures on Ravnica. Also having Ravnica as the center of the muti-verse isn't that far of stretch.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Azor was also a Planeswalker if I recall right. So I could see him managing it. Not sure what it would mean though.
He was? All I remember is that he was one of the Paruns, the founders of the Guilds, but if he was an oldwalker, how could he not defeat the other Paruns? I mean, the entire argument for Sorin overreacting to Nahiri attacking him was that oldwalkers are essentially gods, so if Azor could bend the entire Multiverse that way, he should have been able to defeat the other Guilds with ease.
Azor was also a Planeswalker if I recall right. So I could see him managing it. Not sure what it would mean though.
He was? All I remember is that he was one of the Paruns, the founders of the Guilds, but if he was an oldwalker, how could he not defeat the other Paruns? I mean, the entire argument for Sorin overreacting to Nahiri attacking him was that oldwalkers are essentially gods, so if Azor could bend the entire Multiverse that way, he should have been able to defeat the other Guilds with ease.
What makes you think a number of the other Paruns weren't equally powerful?
Also, isn't he the one who wrote the original Guildpact? It seems like he didn't want to defeat the other Paruns if he's the one who made sure the balance would be kept.
I mean, the entire argument for Sorin overreacting to Nahiri attacking him was that oldwalkers are essentially gods, so if Azor could bend the entire Multiverse that way, he should have been able to defeat the other Guilds with ease.
As I said in the other thread, that's a bad argument. I certainly don't think Sorin was "overreacting" to Nahiri's perceived attempt on his life.
As an aside, I also think that Oldwalkers in general are somewhat overrated. A lot of people seem to think that godlike characters like Urza and Nicol Bolas were representative of the average Oldwalker, but those characters were supposed to be among the most powerful Planeswalkers in existence. Most Oldwalkers weren't even close to being that powerful. The average Oldwalker was probably more like a harder to kill Jace, in terms of power.
I doubt Azor was a Planeswalker, though. The books do mention that he wasn't native to Ravnica, but he could've been transported there somehow.
Although... what's been happening on Dominaria since Time Spiral? It feels a bit like Ravnica's supplanted it already in the story, so maybe making it official would have worked, but like I said, it'd probably break the story if they tried it...
Would it be any more broken than a hotshot band of neo-walkers going 3-0 against a trio of the (allegedly) strongest beings that ever existed?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vorthos Cartography - Check out my completed maps of Zendikar and Innistrad!
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Idk what you guys are talking about but with the prerelease tonight and the end of the story coming soon, we sure have come a long way from: Nahiri is AVACYN -> red herring galore -> who's worse Nahiri or Sorin. To think it's only a few weeks away from getting the story on Kaladesh at comic con. Going in much more blind and theory-less than we did for Innistrad...
Azor was also a Planeswalker if I recall right. So I could see him managing it. Not sure what it would mean though.
He was? All I remember is that he was one of the Paruns, the founders of the Guilds, but if he was an oldwalker, how could he not defeat the other Paruns? I mean, the entire argument for Sorin overreacting to Nahiri attacking him was that oldwalkers are essentially gods, so if Azor could bend the entire Multiverse that way, he should have been able to defeat the other Guilds with ease.
Ah, wasn't confirmed, was just speculation, my apologies. But Azor beating the other guilds would require him to want to. From what little we can gather of his motives he didn't seem to want power. The Guildpact was made for harmony between the guilds, seems reasonable that he wouldn't crush them even if he could.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
On the one hand, I agree that Arlinn might have been a better Battlefield ally thematic fit, when I got to thinking of it, Olivia and the Vampires fit the scene better.
Vampires and Werewolves are both monsters, but they are very different beyond that. Vampires are basically 'civilized monsters', they maintain a veneer of civilized behaviour and activities over their monstrous instincts. Werewolves on the other hand, do not maintain any such veneer. When they wolf out, they are embracing their animalistic wildsides wholeheartedly.
So for the scene in question, where you have two armies meeting to battle a common foe; you need to consider what the Monster Army is like.
With the Vampires, you can believe that Olivia can command hundreds/thousands of blood suckers and be confident that they will all agree and abide by the terms of the alliance.
With the Werewolves, I would find it hard to believe Arlinn could command a similarly sized wolf pack to control themselves that well. Sure she can keep dozens of werewolves under control; but Army sized numbers? That doesn't seem to follow, given the nature of the werewolf.
That said, I'll be happy once this storyline is over with. I hope we'll get another Gisa & Geralf story before curtains call but then NO MORE ELDRAZIS FOR A WHILE please.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
(and he and usually most everyone involved in a set knows how the story plays out, it's always been that way)
MaRo is probably legitimately too busy to keep up with the storyline, let alone exactly where in it we are.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
This. I'm sure he generally knows large story elements. Brisela dying isn't one of them though. Which isn't surprising. Creative isn't where his focus is. And with the focus on Planeswalkers he probably knows what happens to them, but beyond that and broad elements not so much.
What was that about the Implicit Maze? That sounds kind of interesting.
Apparently, the original story for RTR was that solving the Implicit Maze would realign the multiverse with Ravnica at its center. They decided to go with the other plan. Likely for the best as I can only imagine the outrage here and elsewhere had that been the case.
Ravnica is the Jace of the planes so yeah makes sense to change the storyline because that sounds really stupid
Realigning the Multiverse sounds like something that'd require an oldwalker, probably several, and frankly, if Azor I was that powerful, there shouldn't be any reason the Azorius didn't conquer all of Ravnica; who's gonna stop them? The other Guilds should have been ground to dust under the magic that a hypothetical UW oldwalker could unleash against them.
Although... what's been happening on Dominaria since Time Spiral? It feels a bit like Ravnica's supplanted it already in the story, so maybe making it official would have worked, but like I said, it'd probably break the story if they tried it...
In lore we already knew Ravnica was a hotspot plane was is rich and powerful in mana and why many planeswalkers often went there and why their are so many different types of creatures on Ravnica. Also having Ravnica as the center of the muti-verse isn't that far of stretch.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
He was? All I remember is that he was one of the Paruns, the founders of the Guilds, but if he was an oldwalker, how could he not defeat the other Paruns? I mean, the entire argument for Sorin overreacting to Nahiri attacking him was that oldwalkers are essentially gods, so if Azor could bend the entire Multiverse that way, he should have been able to defeat the other Guilds with ease.
As I said in the other thread, that's a bad argument. I certainly don't think Sorin was "overreacting" to Nahiri's perceived attempt on his life.
As an aside, I also think that Oldwalkers in general are somewhat overrated. A lot of people seem to think that godlike characters like Urza and Nicol Bolas were representative of the average Oldwalker, but those characters were supposed to be among the most powerful Planeswalkers in existence. Most Oldwalkers weren't even close to being that powerful. The average Oldwalker was probably more like a harder to kill Jace, in terms of power.
I doubt Azor was a Planeswalker, though. The books do mention that he wasn't native to Ravnica, but he could've been transported there somehow.
Would it be any more broken than a hotshot band of neo-walkers going 3-0 against a trio of the (allegedly) strongest beings that ever existed?
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Ah, wasn't confirmed, was just speculation, my apologies. But Azor beating the other guilds would require him to want to. From what little we can gather of his motives he didn't seem to want power. The Guildpact was made for harmony between the guilds, seems reasonable that he wouldn't crush them even if he could.