That isn't hand waving, ley line redirecting magic makes sense. I also don't see why Nahiri has to be Black.
Yes, but now Nahiri, a white and red character, has access to counterspells.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I'm not generally the type for I told you so's but... I did. Red motives. White means. Red/White character. I enjoyed this story. Nahiris combat abilities are way beyond what I thought they would be. Sorin dying here would be fitting but I get the feeling he won't die.
The Helvault was long established, and Innistrad is Sorin's homeplane. There are no "contrivances" here.
Really, this is only a problem if you ignored every hint that she was the main antagonist. Of which there were many.
The contrivance being the sequence of coincidences that lead to Emrakul's imprisonment. None of it is purposeful on the part of any of the actors, they just kind of stumble across everything. That's contrivance.
Of course Nahiri was the main antagonist. That didn't mean she also had to be a shallow antagonist.
It should be pointed out that the info from the book about Olivia isn't wrong. The initial dump of info we got supposedly from the book was incorrect. I wrote about the discrepancies in that thread, Caranthir
What was shallow about Nahiri? Her plan was focused, crafted perfectly and she succeeded. You'd think after everyone complaining about eldrazi not doing anything impactful, ob nixilis not outright killing, Nicol bolas not doing anything....
Very well written story today and in a weird way I'm okay with Nahiri becoming a villain. While it is sad since she was really awesome as a character, she was always gonna end up being a villain. This has been set up years ahead. Besides Bolas and Ob she is also the first villain I feel is a real threat. Varska, Tibalt and Tezzeret seem so minor.
Well, between Olivia claiming the now-vacant title of Lord of Innistrad and apparently Anje Falkenrath returning to prominence via certain flavor text, it seems we may have a few nods to Innistrad 3.0 being set up with vampires returning to some form of prominence, even if their numbers were hit as hard if not more so than all of the other tribes by Emrakul.
It would be their time to rise, vampires are the most dangerous race to humans on Innistrad and now Avacyn is dead, it is Dark Ascension all over again, except Humans have a few more allies in spirits and werewolves and eldrazi monsters hunter both vampires and humans will event things out some.
Story was pretty good, although I'm curious as to how one stops Nahiri now in terms of combat. She seems a bit op, being able to alter mana, the combat arena and create weapons and cover at will. Seems Sorin only got his shot in while she was distracted. Guess now we're waiting for the inevitable stone lady vs. Spirit Dragon showdown.
I see Nahiri kinda like Bolas, she needs time to set things up. She has had a year of time to bend Innistrad mana to her design which is why hSorins magical attacks didn't work. If she had multiple people attacking with magic she might be more at a disadvantage.
Not to mention Nahiri is a WHITE villain, in both mana and looks There is no black in her, because she is not doing this for power, but for righteous fury, twisted as it was.
I like having variety in villainy. Twisted youth is a great way to insert an unpredictable element to the universe. Traditionally only black, blue, and red spawn enemies, which is why I appreciate Garruk and Naihri. If only they could be pure green and pure white...
Not a fan of the story so far. Nahiri just feels evil for evils sake with no black in either of her cards so far. Don't get me wrong, I strongly dislike Sorin too. The fight was interesting. The story was well written as others have said.
I guess I feel like the medium that the story is built on (cards) coupled with being directed at a huge age gap (13+, that + being particularly key) is ruining the story for me. You can't introduce too many twists and turns in the story because you have two sets to tell it in, and the cards from a single set within a block can't portray a character changing too drastically without gimmicks like flip cards. I find the story appropriate in depth (not content) for the younger players, but it alienates the older players who want more meat. Heck I play with several college professors, teachers, people with graduate degrees etc. who love to keep up with the story...but aren't ever really satisfied with it. It rings empty and hollow. I almost feel like I'm reading a checklist sometimes, like the small articles have to mention these 1-3 major events or storyline pieces that were discussed in storyboarding.
It's a shame really, because for all the problems Maro has with color pie breaks in the card mechanics, story should be just as important. There was, to me at least, not an ounce of white in nahiri outside of her perceived justice. Revenge feels black, passionate vengeance feels red, and justice feels white. Imo she could have been RBw with a strong flavor of RB walker abilities and I would have been happy. Her card abilities are flavorful sure (+ shows preparation, - shows conflict, ult summons Emmy) but the colors feel inadequate now that she pretty much just peaced out.
Olivia is enjoyable and reads as a consistent character for me. I don't know if the same creative member writes all her lines and checks any descriptions of her, but I feel like she is done well and consistently so.
Nahiri did feel waaaaay too powerful in the article. If she has time to set up shop anywhere I can't see many people being able to defeat her physically. Curiously, what part of her color identity allowed her to redirect Sorin's magic? I know hand waves/plot device/ley lines, but the only thing I could come up with was some of the old red stuff that redirected as part of the chaos aspect of the pie?
Black =/= "evil for its own sake". Black is about power. White can be evil too, and Nahiri displays traits of White villainy: utter disdain for what she deems immoral, painting her enemy as a monster, et cetera.
Seriously, after characters like Heliod, this sort of petty complaint is starting to get very grating.
"Petty" is quite harsh considering its my opinion. I even went on to explain what motivations she could have held that each felt red, black and white to me. Nahiri has shown 0 interest in attaining power (opposite of nicol bolas, or Ob Nixilis in almost every feature they've had), so that's not a black attribute that applies here really. It's not greed, it's not power, but it's self interest and utilizing extreme resources as a means to an end. To say she shouldn't have black is an overstatement in my opinion. Nahiri has shown us a very lilianna esque quality in that the end is justified by any means necessary, which feels black.
Disdain sure, but dooming an entire plane to flush out 1 person for revenge is not white. Heliod didn't kill Ajani on his way to the problem, elspeth. He exacted his judgement on the source of his issue. She's summoning a being that's warping families, children, entire towns whatever to flush Sorin out. She made Avacyn mad (who then slaughtered how many townships?) and the Angels to flush him out. Killing many to get to one doesn't feel white. I'm not saying you can't have white villains as Heliod and Elesh Norn both feel very in color to me...but this isn't white outside from her beginning motivations.
Killing innocents doesn't feel white. Leaving an entire plane to die doesn't feel white.
Luring emrakul to a plane with fewer sentient beings feels white. Finding a way to just get Sorin to kill avacyn or just dealing with Sorin feels white. Going home and helping your plane fight until the very last moment like she did in her original story articles feels white. Trapping Emmy after getting your revenge feels white.
I stand behind the assessment of mardu. Red because of her passion and rage, obviously born from a love of zendikar that is manifest as vengeance. Black because the ends justify the means. She will do whatever is necessary to destroy Sorin and everything he holds dear with 0 craps given for what happens between point A and B. And white because her motivations began around justice and Sorin honoring his word. The force that set her feet in motion down this path in the first place.
I liked it too. Very good, atmospheric end, I could envision it perfectly.
I like Sorin much better in Black. When he first came out in Zendikar, I loved the thought of a character who was quite selfish and cruel, a villain by most standards who, depending on the scenario, was capable of a degree of nobility . I never liked to think of him as an anti-hero like Toshi or Liliana, but more like an anti-villain. His appearances in M12 further drove home the impression of Sorin as a very dark, almost Dracula-like figure, and in Dark Ascension I was worried they were trying to sugar him down.
This block gives me the Sorin I've always imagined, the one I wanted to see. Capable of wisdom, capable even of grief and love, but a monster nonetheless, with a heart as dark as his plane.
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"I'd rather die speaking the truth than live a lie." --Gix, to Yawgmoth (pre-Phyrexia)
Well this story made being a vampire pretty much pointless in how easy you're killed and that draining the blood of the person you're drinking doesn't hinder them... I'm bitter not so bitter, bitter about sorin and innidtrad and not so bitter that nahiri is fullfledged villain. This entire block has been heart wrenching, I need some plot armor power of friendship ending so everything will be honcky dory.
Throwing a whole plane under the bus to get at one guy, the real life equivalent of skinning his children alive and forcing him to watch, is red? Not black?
Well, okay.
No, the real life equivalent is fire bombing a corrupted ghetto filled with murders, rapists and drug lords, because the king pin pissed you off. That's how Nahiri sees it.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I would find it pretty fun in a morbid way if Olivia kept Sorin alive in his prison by bringing him 'food', and over time him becoming a B/R planeswalker, brought back to his blood-sucking roots with a touch of madness through Olivia's pseudo-torture.
Also, nice shout-out to Dyfed, in incapacitating a walker to prevent them from walking.
Also, if Nahiri can mask herself from Eldrazi in a small spot with cryptoliths, can she do the same for an army, or an entire plane? Innistrad didn't seem to have as complex or powerful set of leylines like Zendikar or Ravnica, so I assume it could be replicated anywhere.
The story was 'okay,' would have been better if it was longer and we weren't rushed into and through this bigtime conflict of old friends turned bitter enemies. Or maybe I'm just a fast reader. Also, I'm annoyed the power of friendship will win again.
Finally, I think Wizards has to really sit down and decide the power level of walkers, in tiers or however. They were introduced to us as mages with a spark, and with every consecutive block they become more and more powerful. What could Nahiri do in this story that she hadn't been able to do as an oldwalker, or vice versa? It's going to become untenable. Either finally just capitulate and make them oldwalker powered but mortal, or really try to maintain their limits, instead of extending them over and over for the sake of a cool moment in a story.
Throwing a whole plane under the bus to get at one guy, the real life equivalent of skinning his children alive and forcing him to watch, is red? Not black?
Well, okay.
The plane being handed to Emrakul was the action. The motives are emotion fueled revenge. Red. The means are lithomancy. White. The action isn't inherently black either. Just so you know.
That isn't hand waving, ley line redirecting magic makes sense. I also don't see why Nahiri has to be Black.
Yes, but now Nahiri, a white and red character, has access to counterspells.
I got more of a feeling of hexproof or redirection than counter. If you nuked the area she can't do her thing, but single target stuff isn't a good plan.
Not to mention Nahiri is a WHITE villain, in both mana and looks There is no black in her, because she is not doing this for power, but for righteous fury, twisted as it was.
I like having variety in villainy. Twisted youth is a great way to insert an unpredictable element to the universe. Traditionally only black, blue, and red spawn enemies, which is why I appreciate Garruk and Naihri. If only they could be pure green and pure white...
Genereally I agree, there should be a varity of villainious characters. Limiting it only to certain colours makes it rather boring. Althoug it is all a matter of perspective, as in Azorious would be the greatest villain of the freedom loving Chandra. And speaking of which, Leuitnant Baral incoming soon, in most likely white-order aligned colours.
I enjoyed the story quite a bit. The battle was well choreographed, and of course Nahiri would have an answer for everything Sorin threw at her. she's had quite a bit of time to scout him.
And It is poetic justice that Nahiri leaves Sorin encased in stone, helpless to stop an Eldrazi from razing his plane. That's exactly how he left her.
I beg to differ on the whole "She's a Villain from now on" thing,though. Okay, she went a bit overboard in her revenge scheme, and we assume she's going to go after Ugin next. So for those two instances, we can say she is the villain. But aside from that, what are her goals and plans? I don't see her as the "conquering worlds" type. Maybe since she's WR now, she's out to do some interplanar vigilante justice or something, but that makes her a possible antagonist, but not a villain. And I'm quite sure we're going to see her again after She has her showdown with Ugin, so how can she be villainous once her thirst for revenge is satiated?
Throwing a whole plane under the bus to get at one guy, the real life equivalent of skinning his children alive and forcing him to watch, is red? Not black?
Well, okay.
Actually, it is Red. Not that a Black character wouldn't do it, but for them it's nowhere near this lvel of personal, intense hatred. Also, as the story shows, she thinks Innistrad is rotten. Killing out of bigotry is White.
Not a fan of the story so far. Nahiri just feels evil for evils sake with no black in either of her cards so far. Don't get me wrong, I strongly dislike Sorin too. The fight was interesting. The story was well written as others have said.
I guess I feel like the medium that the story is built on (cards) coupled with being directed at a huge age gap (13+, that + being particularly key) is ruining the story for me. You can't introduce too many twists and turns in the story because you have two sets to tell it in, and the cards from a single set within a block can't portray a character changing too drastically without gimmicks like flip cards. I find the story appropriate in depth (not content) for the younger players, but it alienates the older players who want more meat. Heck I play with several college professors, teachers, people with graduate degrees etc. who love to keep up with the story...but aren't ever really satisfied with it. It rings empty and hollow. I almost feel like I'm reading a checklist sometimes, like the small articles have to mention these 1-3 major events or storyline pieces that were discussed in storyboarding.
It's a shame really, because for all the problems Maro has with color pie breaks in the card mechanics, story should be just as important. There was, to me at least, not an ounce of white in nahiri outside of her perceived justice. Revenge feels black, passionate vengeance feels red, and justice feels white. Imo she could have been RBw with a strong flavor of RB walker abilities and I would have been happy. Her card abilities are flavorful sure (+ shows preparation, - shows conflict, ult summons Emmy) but the colors feel inadequate now that she pretty much just peaced out.
Olivia is enjoyable and reads as a consistent character for me. I don't know if the same creative member writes all her lines and checks any descriptions of her, but I feel like she is done well and consistently so.
Nahiri did feel waaaaay too powerful in the article. If she has time to set up shop anywhere I can't see many people being able to defeat her physically. Curiously, what part of her color identity allowed her to redirect Sorin's magic? I know hand waves/plot device/ley lines, but the only thing I could come up with was some of the old red stuff that redirected as part of the chaos aspect of the pie?
Black =/= "evil for its own sake". Black is about power. White can be evil too, and Nahiri displays traits of White villainy: utter disdain for what she deems immoral, painting her enemy as a monster, et cetera.
Seriously, after characters like Heliod, this sort of petty complaint is starting to get very grating.
"Petty" is quite harsh considering its my opinion. I even went on to explain what motivations she could have held that each felt red, black and white to me. Nahiri has shown 0 interest in attaining power (opposite of nicol bolas, or Ob Nixilis in almost every feature they've had), so that's not a black attribute that applies here really. It's not greed, it's not power, but it's self interest and utilizing extreme resources as a means to an end. To say she shouldn't have black is an overstatement in my opinion. Nahiri has shown us a very lilianna esque quality in that the end is justified by any means necessary, which feels black.
Disdain sure, but dooming an entire plane to flush out 1 person for revenge is not white. Heliod didn't kill Ajani on his way to the problem, elspeth. He exacted his judgement on the source of his issue. She's summoning a being that's warping families, children, entire towns whatever to flush Sorin out. She made Avacyn mad (who then slaughtered how many townships?) and the Angels to flush him out. Killing many to get to one doesn't feel white. I'm not saying you can't have white villains as Heliod and Elesh Norn both feel very in color to me...but this isn't white outside from her beginning motivations.
Killing innocents doesn't feel white. Leaving an entire plane to die doesn't feel white.
Luring emrakul to a plane with fewer sentient beings feels white. Finding a way to just get Sorin to kill avacyn or just dealing with Sorin feels white. Going home and helping your plane fight until the very last moment like she did in her original story articles feels white. Trapping Emmy after getting your revenge feels white.
I stand behind the assessment of mardu. Red because of her passion and rage, obviously born from a love of zendikar that is manifest as vengeance. Black because the ends justify the means. She will do whatever is necessary to destroy Sorin and everything he holds dear with 0 craps given for what happens between point A and B. And white because her motivations began around justice and Sorin honoring his word. The force that set her feet in motion down this path in the first place.
While that is a reasonable assessment pragmatic mentality is not restricted to Black. The story also shows that she hates Innistrad because she connects it with evil, which is White.
Heliod killed Elspeth entirely out of jealously. He probably wouldn't be above killing Ajani as well; it's likely that he didn't deem him worth his time
What was shallow about Nahiri? Her plan was focused, crafted perfectly and she succeeded. You'd think after everyone complaining about eldrazi not doing anything impactful, ob nixilis not outright killing, Nicol bolas not doing anything....
My issue with Nahiri's plan - and don't get me wrong, I like her as a new type of villain and like that she one on one with planning can likely knock out most any non-dragon neowalker - is similar to what Jay pointed out; what stops her from being just a straight up Ob Nixilis style villain now? She apparently had no plan to stop or entrap Emrakul, which means Emrakul would eventually finish off Innistrad and float on to some new world. They missed a chance creatively to craft a complex villain who could achieve revenge and still remained in some semblance of total control the whole time. Instead of luring Emrakul to achieve vengeance and then having a backup plan should things turn south, it's just a straightforward genocide. It's not that the plan is poorly thought out, but rather there was another level or two that could have been taken to it. Now Nahiri has just left Emrakul to do her own thing, and has no plans for what to do once she claims vengeance on Sorin and Ugin.
Put another way, Nahiri found out where Sorin lived. She wanted revenge. So she set not just his house on fire but the whole neighborhood. Now that fire is likely to spread while she goes to set fire to Ugin's house, and she has no plans to put it out or contain it. Using the same metaphor, she also just blew her only match on Sorin, so now she's, if we're assuming the story progression correctly, going at Ugin with no match and no way to start said fire. Meanwhile the local Gatewatch fire department is going to show up and put the fire outl. Problem is the last fire they had the time and strategy to battle and put out. This time it's like they just stumbled on a random fire hydrant there for no real reason.
Tl;Dr, it's not that the story is bad, persay. Rather that we could have seen a mother level of complexity to Nahiri's plan and Emrakul'a sealing that is lost which now the Gatewatch has to fill in, which turns the climax of the plot into a very similar one to Oath.
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I enjoyed the story quite a bit. The battle was well choreographed, and of course Nahiri would have an answer for everything Sorin threw at her. she's had quite a bit of time to scout him.
And It is poetic justice that Nahiri leaves Sorin encased in stone, helpless to stop an Eldrazi from razing his plane. That's exactly how he left her.
I beg to differ on the whole "She's a Villain from now on" thing,though. Okay, she went a bit overboard in her revenge scheme, and we assume she's going to go after Ugin next. So for those two instances, we can say she is the villain. But aside from that, what are her goals and plans? I don't see her as the "conquering worlds" type. Maybe since she's WR now, she's out to do some interplanar vigilante justice or something, but that makes her a possible antagonist, but not a villain. And I'm quite sure we're going to see her again after She has her showdown with Ugin, so how can she be villainous once her thirst for revenge is satiated?
If I had to guess she is going to purify the multivers of what she considers evil. Mostly vampires, but probably other things as well. Also probably anybody who tries to get in her way or tries to help those she sees as evil.
Also don't really see how you can come back from what she has done and be considered good. You all are really having a tough time wrapping your head around her being evil and unjustified. Also Sorin was very right, she is still a child.
I don't get why everyone is saying Nahiri is a villian, this is the same thing that saying Sorin is a villian, either both of them are villians or (as they're old walkers) essentially beyond good and evil. Those guys believe (and perhaps are) above planes. They no longer care above individuals and are the kings of generalizations, of course Nahiri is going to see Innistrad as an evil plane and in that regard expendable just like Sorin saw Zendikar as expendable.
I don't get why everyone is saying Nahiri is a villian, this is the same thing that saying Sorin is a villian, either both of them are villians or (as they're old walkers) essentially beyond good and evil. Those guys believe (and perhaps are) above planes. They no longer care above individuals and are the kings of generalizations, of course Nahiri is going to see Innistrad as an evil plane and in that regard expendable just like Sorin saw Zendikar as expendable.
I think many of us would argue they are both villains. Only difference being that as of the curent plot Nahiri is genociding a whole world to get revenge on Sorin whereas Sorin neglected his vows and let another in Zendikar nearly be wiped out. Both are villainous acts separated merely by intent versus inaction.
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It was never even implied that Nahiri was intent on defeating emrakul, why is that something lost. And why is straightforward action frowned upon?
I also don't see why Nahiri goes after Ugin is the next course in her story. She was checking on her allies to see if they were ok, not to kill them. Sorin wronged her, and (for all she knows) allowed her home to be destroyed by way of disabling any possibility of Nahiri, it's guardian, to defend it. So her intent, with him, has nothing to do with Ugin. Or at least, nowhere near the same wrath that Sorin provoked.
What's to tell that isn't widely known? Black isn't the color of just kill and destroy for no reason. Black isn't evil. And as has been mentioned several times before actions do not have colors motivations and tools do. Any color can kill. Any color can save lives. Any color can draw Emrakul to a plane to destroy it. What makes Nahiri red not black is that she was fueled by and controlled by her emotions. She wasn't out for power.
I am curious how Sorin neglected his vows? Also what has he done to be a villain? Is he a villain because he is a vampire and B aligned?
When Nahiri came to call upon Sorin to simply check to see that the Eldrazi containment measures were in place, he refused to go. True, he was weakened at said time and true, he did check up on things later on, but his motives have often been self-preservation or preservation of his interests over those of others. At a minimum it makes him an anti-hero. I'd argue imprisoning Nahiri in the Helvault and leaving her there for a thousand years, killing off Avacyn when there was at least a way he could attempt to cure her and on several occasions sacrificing numerous unnamed people for his own ends tends to be villainous. We just haven't had a plot with Sorin as the antagonist, yet.
It was never even implied that Nahiri was intent on defeating emrakul, why is that something lost. And why is straightforward action frowned upon?
I also don't see why Nahiri goes after Ugin is the next course in her story. She was checking on her allies to see if they were ok, not to kill them. Sorin wronged her, and (for all she knows) allowed her home to be destroyed by way of disabling any possibility of Nahiri, it's guardian, to defend it. So her intent, with him, has nothing to do with Ugin. Or at least, nowhere near the same wrath that Sorin provoked.
No, I agree that Nahiri at the moment has no need to be as angry with Ugin and Sorin. Sorin did provoke her. But in her twisted thought process and having come-off of what she views is a successful revenge against Sorin, I doubt reason means much to her. It would also be a very awkward pivot to suddenly write her as cool with Ugin and done with revenge. I don't think she gets to just become a good guy again that easily.
It's not that it's ever stated that she planned to stop or control Emrakul, nor that straight forward = bad. It's just that I and I believe others hoped for more depth to her character than straight up revenge at any and all costs. Like I said, she just blew her only match on Sorin, so what's next for a spirit dragon? Unless creative makes a quick u-turn with her that would be extremely awkward to write. It's also that Nahiri not having a backup plan forces the Gatewatch to conveniently seal the largest and most potent Titan with little to no planning, which like I said makes this way too similar to Oath's conclusion.
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I don't get why everyone is saying Nahiri is a villian, this is the same thing that saying Sorin is a villian, either both of them are villians or (as they're old walkers) essentially beyond good and evil. Those guys believe (and perhaps are) above planes. They no longer care above individuals and are the kings of generalizations, of course Nahiri is going to see Innistrad as an evil plane and in that regard expendable just like Sorin saw Zendikar as expendable.
Almost everyone here agrees that Sorin is evil as well. However, he at least simply neglected Zendikar. Nahiri deliberately inflicted horror upon people out of revenge.
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Yes, but now Nahiri, a white and red character, has access to counterspells.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
I'm not generally the type for I told you so's but... I did. Red motives. White means. Red/White character. I enjoyed this story. Nahiris combat abilities are way beyond what I thought they would be. Sorin dying here would be fitting but I get the feeling he won't die.
Of course Nahiri was the main antagonist. That didn't mean she also had to be a shallow antagonist.
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What was shallow about Nahiri? Her plan was focused, crafted perfectly and she succeeded. You'd think after everyone complaining about eldrazi not doing anything impactful, ob nixilis not outright killing, Nicol bolas not doing anything....
Not to mention Nahiri is a WHITE villain, in both mana and looks There is no black in her, because she is not doing this for power, but for righteous fury, twisted as it was.
I like having variety in villainy. Twisted youth is a great way to insert an unpredictable element to the universe. Traditionally only black, blue, and red spawn enemies, which is why I appreciate Garruk and Naihri. If only they could be pure green and pure white...
More like redirection, which is red
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"Petty" is quite harsh considering its my opinion. I even went on to explain what motivations she could have held that each felt red, black and white to me. Nahiri has shown 0 interest in attaining power (opposite of nicol bolas, or Ob Nixilis in almost every feature they've had), so that's not a black attribute that applies here really. It's not greed, it's not power, but it's self interest and utilizing extreme resources as a means to an end. To say she shouldn't have black is an overstatement in my opinion. Nahiri has shown us a very lilianna esque quality in that the end is justified by any means necessary, which feels black.
Disdain sure, but dooming an entire plane to flush out 1 person for revenge is not white. Heliod didn't kill Ajani on his way to the problem, elspeth. He exacted his judgement on the source of his issue. She's summoning a being that's warping families, children, entire towns whatever to flush Sorin out. She made Avacyn mad (who then slaughtered how many townships?) and the Angels to flush him out. Killing many to get to one doesn't feel white. I'm not saying you can't have white villains as Heliod and Elesh Norn both feel very in color to me...but this isn't white outside from her beginning motivations.
Killing innocents doesn't feel white. Leaving an entire plane to die doesn't feel white.
Luring emrakul to a plane with fewer sentient beings feels white. Finding a way to just get Sorin to kill avacyn or just dealing with Sorin feels white. Going home and helping your plane fight until the very last moment like she did in her original story articles feels white. Trapping Emmy after getting your revenge feels white.
I stand behind the assessment of mardu. Red because of her passion and rage, obviously born from a love of zendikar that is manifest as vengeance. Black because the ends justify the means. She will do whatever is necessary to destroy Sorin and everything he holds dear with 0 craps given for what happens between point A and B. And white because her motivations began around justice and Sorin honoring his word. The force that set her feet in motion down this path in the first place.
I like Sorin much better in Black. When he first came out in Zendikar, I loved the thought of a character who was quite selfish and cruel, a villain by most standards who, depending on the scenario, was capable of a degree of nobility . I never liked to think of him as an anti-hero like Toshi or Liliana, but more like an anti-villain. His appearances in M12 further drove home the impression of Sorin as a very dark, almost Dracula-like figure, and in Dark Ascension I was worried they were trying to sugar him down.
This block gives me the Sorin I've always imagined, the one I wanted to see. Capable of wisdom, capable even of grief and love, but a monster nonetheless, with a heart as dark as his plane.
No, the real life equivalent is fire bombing a corrupted ghetto filled with murders, rapists and drug lords, because the king pin pissed you off. That's how Nahiri sees it.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Also, nice shout-out to Dyfed, in incapacitating a walker to prevent them from walking.
Also, if Nahiri can mask herself from Eldrazi in a small spot with cryptoliths, can she do the same for an army, or an entire plane? Innistrad didn't seem to have as complex or powerful set of leylines like Zendikar or Ravnica, so I assume it could be replicated anywhere.
The story was 'okay,' would have been better if it was longer and we weren't rushed into and through this bigtime conflict of old friends turned bitter enemies. Or maybe I'm just a fast reader. Also, I'm annoyed the power of friendship will win again.
Finally, I think Wizards has to really sit down and decide the power level of walkers, in tiers or however. They were introduced to us as mages with a spark, and with every consecutive block they become more and more powerful. What could Nahiri do in this story that she hadn't been able to do as an oldwalker, or vice versa? It's going to become untenable. Either finally just capitulate and make them oldwalker powered but mortal, or really try to maintain their limits, instead of extending them over and over for the sake of a cool moment in a story.
The plane being handed to Emrakul was the action. The motives are emotion fueled revenge. Red. The means are lithomancy. White. The action isn't inherently black either. Just so you know.
I got more of a feeling of hexproof or redirection than counter. If you nuked the area she can't do her thing, but single target stuff isn't a good plan.
And It is poetic justice that Nahiri leaves Sorin encased in stone, helpless to stop an Eldrazi from razing his plane. That's exactly how he left her.
I beg to differ on the whole "She's a Villain from now on" thing,though. Okay, she went a bit overboard in her revenge scheme, and we assume she's going to go after Ugin next. So for those two instances, we can say she is the villain. But aside from that, what are her goals and plans? I don't see her as the "conquering worlds" type. Maybe since she's WR now, she's out to do some interplanar vigilante justice or something, but that makes her a possible antagonist, but not a villain. And I'm quite sure we're going to see her again after She has her showdown with Ugin, so how can she be villainous once her thirst for revenge is satiated?
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Actually, it is Red. Not that a Black character wouldn't do it, but for them it's nowhere near this lvel of personal, intense hatred. Also, as the story shows, she thinks Innistrad is rotten. Killing out of bigotry is White.
While that is a reasonable assessment pragmatic mentality is not restricted to Black. The story also shows that she hates Innistrad because she connects it with evil, which is White.
Heliod killed Elspeth entirely out of jealously. He probably wouldn't be above killing Ajani as well; it's likely that he didn't deem him worth his time
My issue with Nahiri's plan - and don't get me wrong, I like her as a new type of villain and like that she one on one with planning can likely knock out most any non-dragon neowalker - is similar to what Jay pointed out; what stops her from being just a straight up Ob Nixilis style villain now? She apparently had no plan to stop or entrap Emrakul, which means Emrakul would eventually finish off Innistrad and float on to some new world. They missed a chance creatively to craft a complex villain who could achieve revenge and still remained in some semblance of total control the whole time. Instead of luring Emrakul to achieve vengeance and then having a backup plan should things turn south, it's just a straightforward genocide. It's not that the plan is poorly thought out, but rather there was another level or two that could have been taken to it. Now Nahiri has just left Emrakul to do her own thing, and has no plans for what to do once she claims vengeance on Sorin and Ugin.
Put another way, Nahiri found out where Sorin lived. She wanted revenge. So she set not just his house on fire but the whole neighborhood. Now that fire is likely to spread while she goes to set fire to Ugin's house, and she has no plans to put it out or contain it. Using the same metaphor, she also just blew her only match on Sorin, so now she's, if we're assuming the story progression correctly, going at Ugin with no match and no way to start said fire. Meanwhile the local Gatewatch fire department is going to show up and put the fire outl. Problem is the last fire they had the time and strategy to battle and put out. This time it's like they just stumbled on a random fire hydrant there for no real reason.
Tl;Dr, it's not that the story is bad, persay. Rather that we could have seen a mother level of complexity to Nahiri's plan and Emrakul'a sealing that is lost which now the Gatewatch has to fill in, which turns the climax of the plot into a very similar one to Oath.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
60 Card Kitchen Table Decks
WUB Avacyn, Spirit Ferrier
RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
If I had to guess she is going to purify the multivers of what she considers evil. Mostly vampires, but probably other things as well. Also probably anybody who tries to get in her way or tries to help those she sees as evil.
Also don't really see how you can come back from what she has done and be considered good. You all are really having a tough time wrapping your head around her being evil and unjustified. Also Sorin was very right, she is still a child.
I think many of us would argue they are both villains. Only difference being that as of the curent plot Nahiri is genociding a whole world to get revenge on Sorin whereas Sorin neglected his vows and let another in Zendikar nearly be wiped out. Both are villainous acts separated merely by intent versus inaction.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
60 Card Kitchen Table Decks
WUB Avacyn, Spirit Ferrier
RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
I also don't see why Nahiri goes after Ugin is the next course in her story. She was checking on her allies to see if they were ok, not to kill them. Sorin wronged her, and (for all she knows) allowed her home to be destroyed by way of disabling any possibility of Nahiri, it's guardian, to defend it. So her intent, with him, has nothing to do with Ugin. Or at least, nowhere near the same wrath that Sorin provoked.
Nahiri is red and white and Deflecting Palm is exactly those colors. i believe what she did against Sorin's spell is a similar to that.
What's to tell that isn't widely known? Black isn't the color of just kill and destroy for no reason. Black isn't evil. And as has been mentioned several times before actions do not have colors motivations and tools do. Any color can kill. Any color can save lives. Any color can draw Emrakul to a plane to destroy it. What makes Nahiri red not black is that she was fueled by and controlled by her emotions. She wasn't out for power.
When Nahiri came to call upon Sorin to simply check to see that the Eldrazi containment measures were in place, he refused to go. True, he was weakened at said time and true, he did check up on things later on, but his motives have often been self-preservation or preservation of his interests over those of others. At a minimum it makes him an anti-hero. I'd argue imprisoning Nahiri in the Helvault and leaving her there for a thousand years, killing off Avacyn when there was at least a way he could attempt to cure her and on several occasions sacrificing numerous unnamed people for his own ends tends to be villainous. We just haven't had a plot with Sorin as the antagonist, yet.
No, I agree that Nahiri at the moment has no need to be as angry with Ugin and Sorin. Sorin did provoke her. But in her twisted thought process and having come-off of what she views is a successful revenge against Sorin, I doubt reason means much to her. It would also be a very awkward pivot to suddenly write her as cool with Ugin and done with revenge. I don't think she gets to just become a good guy again that easily.
It's not that it's ever stated that she planned to stop or control Emrakul, nor that straight forward = bad. It's just that I and I believe others hoped for more depth to her character than straight up revenge at any and all costs. Like I said, she just blew her only match on Sorin, so what's next for a spirit dragon? Unless creative makes a quick u-turn with her that would be extremely awkward to write. It's also that Nahiri not having a backup plan forces the Gatewatch to conveniently seal the largest and most potent Titan with little to no planning, which like I said makes this way too similar to Oath's conclusion.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
60 Card Kitchen Table Decks
WUB Avacyn, Spirit Ferrier
RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
Almost everyone here agrees that Sorin is evil as well. However, he at least simply neglected Zendikar. Nahiri deliberately inflicted horror upon people out of revenge.