Also, pointing out that Sorin is an ***hole is not mutually exclusive with "defending Nahiri." Seems to be a common train of thought around here. Saying Sorin is a big cause of all this isn't mutually exclusive with absolving Nahiri of her actions. Fans of that bland character sure do jump the gun.
Liliana just watched the clouds. This was deep, ancient magic, world-altering and vindictive. "She caused this?"
"The petty act of a petty mage," Sorin murmured. "With a misguided sense of justice."
"So it was you who caused all this," Liliana said. "You wronged her!"
This sounds much more accusing that defensive of anything. Lily is realizing the scope of what is going on and is getting pissed that Sorin is still being a condescending aloof jerk. Worry is starting to set in making her uncomfortable.
"Aren't you the least bit concerned about what her vengeance is doing to Innistrad?" Liliana asked. "Jace is"—she straightened herself—"there are thousands of people out there."
This is almost uncharacteristic of her, but look at the motivations. Lily has realized something horrible is happening to Innistrad. She 'wants' Jace, and Jace is out there on Innistrad. Sorin named himself the protector of Innistrad so reasonably if prodded he should go protect it, she doesn't know what part of Innistrad interest Sorin so the simple "isn't everyone going to die if you do nothing?" line is meant to give him that push.
Then she starts getting sentimental, which technically isn't out of color for black. She believes herself above petty things like emotions but she isn't, only blue actively denies emotion all other colors work with them but only red full embraces them. Then as the story closes she is reveling in the irony that a person so embracing of death and darkness is anyone or anythings' hope. Maybe even feeling a little good to be doing what she 'knows' is right. Make no mistakes though unless the radically change her character at the first sign of 'true' danger(maybe not the first, but once it is a losing battle) she should simply 'walk away.
It's the scope part and getting annoyed at Sorin that really felt uncharacteristic. I understand the part of "wanting" Jace and deciding to let her emotions decide to eventually fight, but considering she has been more or less described as a person who doesn't care about the scope of most matters unless it concerns her, it almost feels unjustified for her to "accuse" the same of Sorin, even if Sorin did title himself "Lord of Innistrad". There's a sense of hypocrisy I felt emerged from that sentence and it has nothing to do with her "wants" for Jace. Doubly ironic since when Sorin knows killing Nahiri does nothing to Emrakul, but he's WB (there's no justice, just revenge at this point of time) whereas Liliana looks quite set to remain mono-B and displays characteristics more towards WB than Sorin ever will.
In one article, it almost feels like Sorin doesn't actually care for Innistrad anymore once Emrakul emerged (which does fall along the lines of "Obey, or perish"). Not surprising, considering it took him 1,000 years after sealing Nahiri to actually bother checking on the Eye of Ugin. Perhaps Liliana doesn't know that (in which she can be excused), but she still thinks Sorin has some sense of responsibility from merely his title when everything Sorin has did so far pretty much proved that he's even less responsible than Liliana (and Liliana isn't an exact paragon of responsibility herself either).
Perhaps it's Sorin's fault after all - he has been displaying to be a lot more Mono-B than Liliana has so far (especially now that he dropped all possibility of "justice" and is just in it for revenge) and in this article where they met, it distorted how I saw Liliana as a result (because I was already mentally tuned to think Liliana as B, and as such now that someone worse as appeared...)
This entire mess is different shades of WB... and it seems easy to misfit Liliana in there.
So, in I Am Avacyn, Sorin said about "fixing" Avacyn. But now this story pretty much says Sorin's deal with Olivia has always been to kill Avacyn.
Yet another character derailment, in addition to his rather un-ancient-like behavior in front of Liliana. As much a Sorin fan as I am, I'd rather he meets his end in this block so that they can't sully him anymore. This is enough defilement already. If theye continue putting him in the plots, I can imagine he'll do unforgivable things like killing Olivia, killing Nahiri, killing Zendikar as a revenge for Innistrad's ruin, etc etc, ultimately turning him into a full-blown villain instead of a grey character.
Compared to the previous stories, this is one of the poorer ones for me; barely anything here interests me at all.
Liliana just watched the clouds. This was deep, ancient magic, world-altering and vindictive. "She caused this?"
"The petty act of a petty mage," Sorin murmured. "With a misguided sense of justice."
"So it was you who caused all this," Liliana said. "You wronged her!"
This sounds much more accusing that defensive of anything. Lily is realizing the scope of what is going on and is getting pissed that Sorin is still being a condescending aloof jerk. Worry is starting to set in making her uncomfortable.
"Aren't you the least bit concerned about what her vengeance is doing to Innistrad?" Liliana asked. "Jace is"—she straightened herself—"there are thousands of people out there."
This is almost uncharacteristic of her, but look at the motivations. Lily has realized something horrible is happening to Innistrad. She 'wants' Jace, and Jace is out there on Innistrad. Sorin named himself the protector of Innistrad so reasonably if prodded he should go protect it, she doesn't know what part of Innistrad interest Sorin so the simple "isn't everyone going to die if you do nothing?" line is meant to give him that push.
Then she starts getting sentimental, which technically isn't out of color for black. She believes herself above petty things like emotions but she isn't, only blue actively denies emotion all other colors work with them but only red full embraces them. Then as the story closes she is reveling in the irony that a person so embracing of death and darkness is anyone or anythings' hope. Maybe even feeling a little good to be doing what she 'knows' is right. Make no mistakes though unless the radically change her character at the first sign of 'true' danger(maybe not the first, but once it is a losing battle) she should simply 'walk away.
It's the scope part and getting annoyed at Sorin that really felt uncharacteristic. I understand the part of "wanting" Jace and deciding to let her emotions decide to eventually fight, but considering she has been more or less described as a person who doesn't care about the scope of most matters unless it concerns her, it almost feels unjustified for her to "accuse" the same of Sorin, even if Sorin did title himself "Lord of Innistrad". There's a sense of hypocrisy I felt emerged from that sentence and it has nothing to do with her "wants" for Jace. Doubly ironic since when Sorin knows killing Nahiri does nothing to Emrakul, but he's WB (there's no justice, just revenge at this point of time) whereas Liliana looks quite set to remain mono-B and displays characteristics more towards WB than Sorin ever will.
In one article, it almost feels like Sorin doesn't actually care for Innistrad anymore once Emrakul emerged (which does fall along the lines of "Obey, or perish"). Not surprising, considering it took him 1,000 years after sealing Nahiri to actually bother checking on the Eye of Ugin. Perhaps Liliana doesn't know that (in which she can be excused), but she still thinks Sorin has some sense of responsibility from merely his title when everything Sorin has did so far pretty much proved that he's even less responsible than Liliana (and Liliana isn't an exact paragon of responsibility herself either).
Perhaps it's Sorin's fault after all - he has been displaying to be a lot more Mono-B than Liliana has so far (especially now that he dropped all possibility of "justice" and is just in it for revenge) and in this article where they met, it distorted how I saw Liliana as a result (because I was already mentally tuned to think Liliana as B, and as such now that someone worse as appeared...)
This entire mess is different shades of WB... and it seems easy to misfit Liliana in there.
I don't think Lili actually cares about Innistrad at all, or at least not cery much. She just "cares" about Jace, and is using Innistrad as a motivation to convince Sorin to do something which will, she hopes, result in Jace being in less danger.
And I think Sorin does care about Innistrad, but I think he thinks that it is 100% a lost cause and that there is nothing he can do to save it, so that's why he is settling for revenge
Also, why does everyone keep saying that Sorin took 1000 years to check on the Eye of Ugin? yes he was there during the events of ROE which was 1000 years after he imprisoned Nahiri, but how do you all know that he didn't check up on it every once in a while in the meantime as well? I think it's perfectly plausible that he could have
Also, why does everyone keep saying that Sorin took 1000 years to check on the Eye of Ugin? yes he was there during the events of ROE which was 1000 years after he imprisoned Nahiri, but how do you all know that he didn't check up on it every once in a while in the meantime as well? I think it's perfectly plausible that he could have
What I suspect as the reason is this: Based on the few stories we have about Nahiri before she got sealed in Healvault, I don't remember there's so much as a hint that Sorin ever came to Zendikar at all after the original sealing, i.e., during the 5000 years between the sealing and the creation of Helvault, there doesn't seem to be hints that Sorin ever checked on Zendikar ever (because considering that Nahiri seems to be mostly living in Zendikar the whole time, if Sorin paid a visit, she would have known). So if he could spend 5000 years never checking on Zendikar, I find it reasonable that people keeps thinking that in that 1000-year span (which is within the Tarkir time travel timeline, btw), Sorin would also never have checked on Zendikar either.
Which, admittedly, does leave a bit of a plot hole: If he never went to Zendikar during that 1000 years, why did he show up during RoE? As in, what triggered him to come?
Also, why does everyone keep saying that Sorin took 1000 years to check on the Eye of Ugin? yes he was there during the events of ROE which was 1000 years after he imprisoned Nahiri, but how do you all know that he didn't check up on it every once in a while in the meantime as well? I think it's perfectly plausible that he could have
What I suspect as the reason is this: Based on the few stories we have about Nahiri before she got sealed in Healvault, I don't remember there's so much as a hint that Sorin ever came to Zendikar at all after the original sealing, i.e., during the 5000 years between the sealing and the creation of Helvault, there doesn't seem to be hints that Sorin ever checked on Zendikar ever (because considering that Nahiri seems to be mostly living in Zendikar the whole time, if Sorin paid a visit, she would have known). So if he could spend 5000 years never checking on Zendikar, I find it reasonable that people keeps thinking that in that 1000-year span (which is within the Tarkir time travel timeline, btw), Sorin would also never have checked on Zendikar either.
Which, admittedly, does leave a bit of a plot hole: If he never went to Zendikar during that 1000 years, why did he show up during RoE? As in, what triggered him to come?
I skimmed through the Teeth of Akoum, Sorin's Restoration, Stirring from Slumber and Stone and Blood. Nothing explicitly stated Sorin didn't visit Zendikar between those 1,000 years. But neither did any source state he visited Zendikar in those 1,000 years either.
But what I think gave the strongest indication (not that it's absolute support either) that Nahiri's memories about Sorin in Stone and Blood seemed to stretched back way before the sealing 6,000 years ago and that's it. It really implied Sorin tutored Nahiri for a short while and technically together with Ugin, "had an agreement" with the naive Nahiri to seal the Titans on Zendikar. All her "Sorin was my mentor, friend" came before that and nothing implied he ever came to visit Nahiri in 5,000 years. There's some loopholes in there, primarily in that Sorin could visit without knowledge and Nahiri was in slumber almost throughout those periods, but I'm inclined to think that she could be awoken (like Ugin) had Sorin wanted to at any time, plus I think Nahiri would monitor the entire plane while sleeping and might have set an "alarm clock" if Ugin/Sorin visited the plane (Sorin could do that to Liliana on Innistrad, I would think Nahiri would do the same on Zendikar).
We can't assume Sorin visited Zendikar periodically before and after the sealing 1,000 years ago, either. Even if those visits were uneventful, he never once raised (nor did Nahiri) that he visited Zendikar before. The Teeth of Akoum might have gotten retcon'ed, especially with the Vampires' origins, but a lot of beings, not only vampires treated Sorin like some ancient "Mortifier" who converted the vampires long, long ago... even if the conversion was retcon'ed, the long ago part didn't seem like it went along with it. Sorin also never managed to planeswalk right into the Eye (as opposed to Ugin himself) and needed to trek through the everchanging terrain of Zendikar to reach it. Considering the Eye had a special bond to the trio in the first place, even if it changes locations (because Akoum did), Sorin should be able to walk straight into it like Ugin... did he lose connection solely because of the Helvault/Avacyn, or did he purely forget how to walk into the Eye?
Well, at the end of the day, whether Sorin visited Zendikar doesn't seem vital enough to determine he's responsible or not... because honestly speaking, almost every other action he has taken has been irresponsible, if not incompetent.
Also, pointing out that Sorin is an ***hole is not mutually exclusive with "defending Nahiri." Seems to be a common train of thought around here. Saying Sorin is a big cause of all this isn't mutually exclusive with absolving Nahiri of her actions. Fans of that bland character sure do jump the gun.
Yes, this is something that bugs me. Everyone assumes because I'm constantly trashing Sorin, I must think Nahiri is god. I have defended Nahiri (more on that in a moment) but that does not make my criticisms of Sorin any less valid. I actually used to be a fan of Sorin. I thought it was pretty cool to have a vampire antihero who created an archangel to protect his plane. He seemed like a fairly interesting character. Then this block hit, and we got to see the man (vampire?) underneath. Arrogant, egotistical, and only every caring about himself. He thinks himself better than literally everyone. He treats his "friends" and "allies" like utter crap. ("I never asked for your trust, child. Only your obedience.") He dismissed an old apprentice who came to him for help, because she was no longer any use to him. When, when she threw a temper-tantrum, he locked her away and forgot about her, essentially allowing the multiverse to go to hell. Then, when these decisions come back to haunt him, he tells everyone else that it's all their fault, because he can't bear to admit that he messed up. What a real outstanding citizen.
Now for Nahiri. I was hoping that she was luring Emrakul to Innistrad to lock her in the Heron Moon. Judging by Maro's responses on his blog, it would appear that isn't the case. That assumption was the main leg of my "Nahiri's not a villan" argument. Oh well. It means Nahiri is doing everything out of spite, revenge, and righteousness. I agree with her in that Soring had it coming, but there had to be a better way to get revenge than to throw his whole plane under the bus. I guess in her mind, since the Eldrazi are free, it doesn't matter if they eat Innistrad or just some other random plane. I will note that whatever her initial intentions were, she probably did end up saving the multiverse anyway, since there's no way the Gatewatch could have defeated all three titans, especially when Emrakul is so much more insanely powerful than the other two.
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One thing that consistently doesn't make sense to me in Liliana chapters is the following:
Liliana was an oldwalker. After the Mending (who knows how long), she grew into an old crone, essentially. She was already old as a planeswalker, and then became an old mortal walker. Then, after her power-hungry deals with demons, she looks younger once again.
So why in her chapters is she so often portrayed as a regular angsty 20-something woman? It doesn't feel right. She's lived longer than any living mortal, then turned into an old woman, and only looks young because of demonic pacts. She's still technically ancient. Why doesn't it feel like she acts it, or even really thinks about it? Is this 20-something behavior like a mid-eternity crisis? Is she trying to feel young again? If so, why wouldn't they address that somehow, really humanize the ancient woman? Struggling with the Veil, struggling with demons, and struggling with herself, trying to rediscover her lost youth and vitality and power. Then it would make more sense that Jace, a young mind mage dude, is appealing to her. Power mixed with youth. Something she wants to feel again, so maybe it's vicarious living through Jace. And not only could Jace then psychologically help her feel young again, he might also be the key to helping her with the Veil. To an ancient entity, those needs might be an emotional reminder of 'affection,' a concept she might not want to recognize.
But absent such exposition, it just feels like she's a young self-interested necromancer with no long history behind her. It's a disservice to her, I feel, especially since she was my first planeswalker card (Jace was second, but I'm not a huge fan of the character). Others might feel differently, with every right, but this is my interpretation of what I've read.
Also, pointing out that Sorin is an ***hole is not mutually exclusive with "defending Nahiri." Seems to be a common train of thought around here. Saying Sorin is a big cause of all this isn't mutually exclusive with absolving Nahiri of her actions. Fans of that bland character sure do jump the gun.
Yeah, I don't get why people have been reacting this way.
Nahiri is the villain and genocide is evil but for some reason that translates to "Nahiri's actions make no sense" which simply isn't true. And while Sorin perhaps isn't "at fault" (that being a very politicized claim) for what is happening there's probably a causal link between torturing Nahiri for 1000 years and her going on a murderous rampage.
I'm not condoning her actions, I'm just tired of Sorin's uselessness. He's been involved in the original zendikar plot, the original innistrad plot, the khans plot, the bfz plot, and now this one and has accomplished what? Dude is selfish to the point of being evil and nahiri is vengeful to the point of being evil, they both knowingly doomed a plane. Just my opinion.
Sorin is the victim of character assassination because he's too powerful to ALSO be smart enough to do the right thing. Need to justify the existence of the Gatewatch somehow.
I hate marketing-based storytelling. I hate it so much.
True the characters do feel like they're being bound by the marketing team a bit. While Nahiri and Sorin are killing each other, hopefully all the eldrazi-warped creature types I used to enjoy jump in the middle and die off too.
Between eldrazi winter, over saturation in the storyline (imo), and now the move into some of my favorite creature types on innistrad I'm beginning to wonder if we were too vocal in wanting a "deadly" threat that's in your face. I'm pretty tired of them personally.
On a side note I bet lilly could handle either Sorin or Nahiri with the chain veil. She didn't seem intimidated at all by him this time around and the story was told from her perspective. Whereas when Jace was talking to her she sounded legit afraid of the guy.
That is again due to marvelous storytelling.
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The story is too driven by the market. Look at Jace. Jace is probably one of the most hated paleswalkers in the recent history. It is genuinely hard to find a true Jace fan and supporter these days, but wotc don't care because their logic is ''derp Jace the mind sculptor was the best most played planeswalker card in history of mtg...MUST MEAN THAT PEOPLE LOVE THE CHARACTER LIKE CRAZY! It has nothing to do with the card itself being broken huehuehuehuehuehue'' and ever since then they've been shoving him down our throats as much as possible.
One thing that consistently doesn't make sense to me in Liliana chapters is the following:
Liliana was an oldwalker. After the Mending (who knows how long), she grew into an old crone, essentially. She was already old as a planeswalker, and then became an old mortal walker. Then, after her power-hungry deals with demons, she looks younger once again.
So why in her chapters is she so often portrayed as a regular angsty 20-something woman?
Mostly because that's the target demographic. Twenty something people with twenty something problems looking for something or someone to relate to in their escapism.
I don't see why its unrealistic for an old woman to want a young attractive boytoy.
Especially when, if its not to graphic to say, she's in the body of a young woman again.
I think the problem is more that nothing indicates that Liliana takes the long view in the way that other ancient beings seem to. Its true that she isn't currently immortal but it doesn't seem like she's at risk of dying in the near future. Her rush to get the veil working seems like behavior of a relatively young person.
Liliana's backstory and motivations center around loss (of her brother, her power, her youth, etc.), so it's not implausible to me that she'd fear losing her (arguably) only friend and her chosen home plane. She also needs and wants "Cloak Boy" to help unravel her Veil conundrum, but -- despite that she's generally portrayed as cold, cruel, and selfish -- she's not totally heartless in the same way as some other mono-black villains. She sometimes toes the line between villain and antihero.
The increasingly obvious similarities between Sorin's and Nahiri's arcs are noteworthy, as is the overlapping of Liliana's goals with Jace's, albeit for different reasons. It's easy to see why the two of them simultaneously like and hate each other.
I find it strange that people here are expecting 'ancient' characters to act in a specific way when there has never been a real person or being to compare with. In the varies fictions I've read 'ancient' beings have acted in the full spectrum from frighteningly naive to homicidally insane and everything in-between. Especially with varying levels of 'ancient'ness 300 years doesn't seem ancient and that should be around where Liliana falls but 1000+ should start reaching 'ancient' status and the only common trait I've ever seen with them is insanity that manifest is any number of ways but usually some kind of eccentricity, when you are literally older than the hills you can't reasonably be expected to care about normal peoples petty squabbles.
Also, pointing out that Sorin is an ***hole is not mutually exclusive with "defending Nahiri." Seems to be a common train of thought around here. Saying Sorin is a big cause of all this isn't mutually exclusive with absolving Nahiri of her actions. Fans of that bland character sure do jump the gun.
Yes, this is something that bugs me. Everyone assumes because I'm constantly trashing Sorin, I must think Nahiri is god. I have defended Nahiri (more on that in a moment) but that does not make my criticisms of Sorin any less valid. I actually used to be a fan of Sorin. I thought it was pretty cool to have a vampire antihero who created an archangel to protect his plane. He seemed like a fairly interesting character. Then this block hit, and we got to see the man (vampire?) underneath. Arrogant, egotistical, and only every caring about himself. He thinks himself better than literally everyone. He treats his "friends" and "allies" like utter crap. ("I never asked for your trust, child. Only your obedience.") He dismissed an old apprentice who came to him for help, because she was no longer any use to him. When, when she threw a temper-tantrum, he locked her away and forgot about her, essentially allowing the multiverse to go to hell. Then, when these decisions come back to haunt him, he tells everyone else that it's all their fault, because he can't bear to admit that he messed up. What a real outstanding citizen.
It was not because she was no longer of any use, it was because he was exhausted, he even tries to explain it("Not now," said Sorin, with infuriating calm. "Later, perhaps. This is a critical time—") after the first exchange of blows between them.
That being said, I do agree that blaming Liliana is quite shameful, even though she did mess with his affairs by destroying half of the plane's security system.
I find it strange that people here are expecting 'ancient' characters to act in a specific way when there has never been a real person or being to compare with. In the varies fictions I've read 'ancient' beings have acted in the full spectrum from frighteningly naive to homicidally insane and everything in-between. Especially with varying levels of 'ancient'ness 300 years doesn't seem ancient and that should be around where Liliana falls but 1000+ should start reaching 'ancient' status and the only common trait I've ever seen with them is insanity that manifest is any number of ways but usually some kind of eccentricity, when you are literally older than the hills you can't reasonably be expected to care about normal peoples petty squabbles.
Hmm... I can agree for the most part to your post here, although on the other hand it sort of troubles me if people are only so imaginative as to imagine ancient beings as having always had lost all semblance of all sanity past the centennial birthday. I can also concede to the point that for even ancient beings to be confined to one or two characteristics seems pretty normal (Example: Liliana and her general selfishness, Nahiri and her love of Zendikar); after all, fiction readers still would love to read some consistency. It's just that for some of them, Sorin, for example, despite having their achievement/characteristic mentioned to define them, they somehow still decide to put those characters in stories that only serve to derail their established theme. That's what some people are complaining about.
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Nahiri heading after Ugin seems very likely now. And her toolkit seems to be pretty impressive. Being able to mess with leylines so easily. Though I wonder if that's only because of all the cryptoliths, might be she can't do that normally.
Is it just me, or reports of Olivia's death were greatly exaggerated? She seems quite alive at the end of the story,and Sorin is definitely NOT in any shape to kill her now.
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Nahiri is way more powerful in a physical confrontation than I think we've ever seen from a modern walker. Sorin might as well be throwing his army into a meat grinder. Speaking of Sorin he really comes to a fitting end here. A courtesy returned, indeed.
"Her swords orbited above her head, a crown of blades that marked this as her domain."
I'm going to say that acting like Kozilek is not a good sign.
Interesting. It would seem that she only intended to summon Emrakul to Innistrad, not the other two.
Yeah, the girl in white sure lasted a long time. At least Olivia survived.
Not the worst writing I've seen, though Ari needs to learn to break up his descriptive sentances. I'm still wondering what part of the story James Wyatt is going to ruin this time.
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It's the scope part and getting annoyed at Sorin that really felt uncharacteristic. I understand the part of "wanting" Jace and deciding to let her emotions decide to eventually fight, but considering she has been more or less described as a person who doesn't care about the scope of most matters unless it concerns her, it almost feels unjustified for her to "accuse" the same of Sorin, even if Sorin did title himself "Lord of Innistrad". There's a sense of hypocrisy I felt emerged from that sentence and it has nothing to do with her "wants" for Jace. Doubly ironic since when Sorin knows killing Nahiri does nothing to Emrakul, but he's WB (there's no justice, just revenge at this point of time) whereas Liliana looks quite set to remain mono-B and displays characteristics more towards WB than Sorin ever will.
In one article, it almost feels like Sorin doesn't actually care for Innistrad anymore once Emrakul emerged (which does fall along the lines of "Obey, or perish"). Not surprising, considering it took him 1,000 years after sealing Nahiri to actually bother checking on the Eye of Ugin. Perhaps Liliana doesn't know that (in which she can be excused), but she still thinks Sorin has some sense of responsibility from merely his title when everything Sorin has did so far pretty much proved that he's even less responsible than Liliana (and Liliana isn't an exact paragon of responsibility herself either).
Perhaps it's Sorin's fault after all - he has been displaying to be a lot more Mono-B than Liliana has so far (especially now that he dropped all possibility of "justice" and is just in it for revenge) and in this article where they met, it distorted how I saw Liliana as a result (because I was already mentally tuned to think Liliana as B, and as such now that someone worse as appeared...)
This entire mess is different shades of WB... and it seems easy to misfit Liliana in there.
Yet another character derailment, in addition to his rather un-ancient-like behavior in front of Liliana. As much a Sorin fan as I am, I'd rather he meets his end in this block so that they can't sully him anymore. This is enough defilement already. If theye continue putting him in the plots, I can imagine he'll do unforgivable things like killing Olivia, killing Nahiri, killing Zendikar as a revenge for Innistrad's ruin, etc etc, ultimately turning him into a full-blown villain instead of a grey character.
Compared to the previous stories, this is one of the poorer ones for me; barely anything here interests me at all.
I don't think Lili actually cares about Innistrad at all, or at least not cery much. She just "cares" about Jace, and is using Innistrad as a motivation to convince Sorin to do something which will, she hopes, result in Jace being in less danger.
And I think Sorin does care about Innistrad, but I think he thinks that it is 100% a lost cause and that there is nothing he can do to save it, so that's why he is settling for revenge
Also, why does everyone keep saying that Sorin took 1000 years to check on the Eye of Ugin? yes he was there during the events of ROE which was 1000 years after he imprisoned Nahiri, but how do you all know that he didn't check up on it every once in a while in the meantime as well? I think it's perfectly plausible that he could have
What I suspect as the reason is this: Based on the few stories we have about Nahiri before she got sealed in Healvault, I don't remember there's so much as a hint that Sorin ever came to Zendikar at all after the original sealing, i.e., during the 5000 years between the sealing and the creation of Helvault, there doesn't seem to be hints that Sorin ever checked on Zendikar ever (because considering that Nahiri seems to be mostly living in Zendikar the whole time, if Sorin paid a visit, she would have known). So if he could spend 5000 years never checking on Zendikar, I find it reasonable that people keeps thinking that in that 1000-year span (which is within the Tarkir time travel timeline, btw), Sorin would also never have checked on Zendikar either.
Which, admittedly, does leave a bit of a plot hole: If he never went to Zendikar during that 1000 years, why did he show up during RoE? As in, what triggered him to come?
I skimmed through the Teeth of Akoum, Sorin's Restoration, Stirring from Slumber and Stone and Blood. Nothing explicitly stated Sorin didn't visit Zendikar between those 1,000 years. But neither did any source state he visited Zendikar in those 1,000 years either.
But what I think gave the strongest indication (not that it's absolute support either) that Nahiri's memories about Sorin in Stone and Blood seemed to stretched back way before the sealing 6,000 years ago and that's it. It really implied Sorin tutored Nahiri for a short while and technically together with Ugin, "had an agreement" with the naive Nahiri to seal the Titans on Zendikar. All her "Sorin was my mentor, friend" came before that and nothing implied he ever came to visit Nahiri in 5,000 years. There's some loopholes in there, primarily in that Sorin could visit without knowledge and Nahiri was in slumber almost throughout those periods, but I'm inclined to think that she could be awoken (like Ugin) had Sorin wanted to at any time, plus I think Nahiri would monitor the entire plane while sleeping and might have set an "alarm clock" if Ugin/Sorin visited the plane (Sorin could do that to Liliana on Innistrad, I would think Nahiri would do the same on Zendikar).
We can't assume Sorin visited Zendikar periodically before and after the sealing 1,000 years ago, either. Even if those visits were uneventful, he never once raised (nor did Nahiri) that he visited Zendikar before. The Teeth of Akoum might have gotten retcon'ed, especially with the Vampires' origins, but a lot of beings, not only vampires treated Sorin like some ancient "Mortifier" who converted the vampires long, long ago... even if the conversion was retcon'ed, the long ago part didn't seem like it went along with it. Sorin also never managed to planeswalk right into the Eye (as opposed to Ugin himself) and needed to trek through the everchanging terrain of Zendikar to reach it. Considering the Eye had a special bond to the trio in the first place, even if it changes locations (because Akoum did), Sorin should be able to walk straight into it like Ugin... did he lose connection solely because of the Helvault/Avacyn, or did he purely forget how to walk into the Eye?
Well, at the end of the day, whether Sorin visited Zendikar doesn't seem vital enough to determine he's responsible or not... because honestly speaking, almost every other action he has taken has been irresponsible, if not incompetent.
Though I am already accepting the possibility that she might not survive this Eldrazi-Nahiri War part 2.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Yes, this is something that bugs me. Everyone assumes because I'm constantly trashing Sorin, I must think Nahiri is god. I have defended Nahiri (more on that in a moment) but that does not make my criticisms of Sorin any less valid. I actually used to be a fan of Sorin. I thought it was pretty cool to have a vampire antihero who created an archangel to protect his plane. He seemed like a fairly interesting character. Then this block hit, and we got to see the man (vampire?) underneath. Arrogant, egotistical, and only every caring about himself. He thinks himself better than literally everyone. He treats his "friends" and "allies" like utter crap. ("I never asked for your trust, child. Only your obedience.") He dismissed an old apprentice who came to him for help, because she was no longer any use to him. When, when she threw a temper-tantrum, he locked her away and forgot about her, essentially allowing the multiverse to go to hell. Then, when these decisions come back to haunt him, he tells everyone else that it's all their fault, because he can't bear to admit that he messed up. What a real outstanding citizen.
Now for Nahiri. I was hoping that she was luring Emrakul to Innistrad to lock her in the Heron Moon. Judging by Maro's responses on his blog, it would appear that isn't the case. That assumption was the main leg of my "Nahiri's not a villan" argument. Oh well. It means Nahiri is doing everything out of spite, revenge, and righteousness. I agree with her in that Soring had it coming, but there had to be a better way to get revenge than to throw his whole plane under the bus. I guess in her mind, since the Eldrazi are free, it doesn't matter if they eat Innistrad or just some other random plane. I will note that whatever her initial intentions were, she probably did end up saving the multiverse anyway, since there's no way the Gatewatch could have defeated all three titans, especially when Emrakul is so much more insanely powerful than the other two.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Liliana was an oldwalker. After the Mending (who knows how long), she grew into an old crone, essentially. She was already old as a planeswalker, and then became an old mortal walker. Then, after her power-hungry deals with demons, she looks younger once again.
So why in her chapters is she so often portrayed as a regular angsty 20-something woman? It doesn't feel right. She's lived longer than any living mortal, then turned into an old woman, and only looks young because of demonic pacts. She's still technically ancient. Why doesn't it feel like she acts it, or even really thinks about it? Is this 20-something behavior like a mid-eternity crisis? Is she trying to feel young again? If so, why wouldn't they address that somehow, really humanize the ancient woman? Struggling with the Veil, struggling with demons, and struggling with herself, trying to rediscover her lost youth and vitality and power. Then it would make more sense that Jace, a young mind mage dude, is appealing to her. Power mixed with youth. Something she wants to feel again, so maybe it's vicarious living through Jace. And not only could Jace then psychologically help her feel young again, he might also be the key to helping her with the Veil. To an ancient entity, those needs might be an emotional reminder of 'affection,' a concept she might not want to recognize.
But absent such exposition, it just feels like she's a young self-interested necromancer with no long history behind her. It's a disservice to her, I feel, especially since she was my first planeswalker card (Jace was second, but I'm not a huge fan of the character). Others might feel differently, with every right, but this is my interpretation of what I've read.
Yeah, I don't get why people have been reacting this way.
Nahiri is the villain and genocide is evil but for some reason that translates to "Nahiri's actions make no sense" which simply isn't true. And while Sorin perhaps isn't "at fault" (that being a very politicized claim) for what is happening there's probably a causal link between torturing Nahiri for 1000 years and her going on a murderous rampage.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Especially when, if its not to graphic to say, she's in the body of a young woman again.
I think the problem is more that nothing indicates that Liliana takes the long view in the way that other ancient beings seem to. Its true that she isn't currently immortal but it doesn't seem like she's at risk of dying in the near future. Her rush to get the veil working seems like behavior of a relatively young person.
The increasingly obvious similarities between Sorin's and Nahiri's arcs are noteworthy, as is the overlapping of Liliana's goals with Jace's, albeit for different reasons. It's easy to see why the two of them simultaneously like and hate each other.
It was not because she was no longer of any use, it was because he was exhausted, he even tries to explain it("Not now," said Sorin, with infuriating calm. "Later, perhaps. This is a critical time—") after the first exchange of blows between them.
That being said, I do agree that blaming Liliana is quite shameful, even though she did mess with his affairs by destroying half of the plane's security system.
Hmm... I can agree for the most part to your post here, although on the other hand it sort of troubles me if people are only so imaginative as to imagine ancient beings as having always had lost all semblance of all sanity past the centennial birthday. I can also concede to the point that for even ancient beings to be confined to one or two characteristics seems pretty normal (Example: Liliana and her general selfishness, Nahiri and her love of Zendikar); after all, fiction readers still would love to read some consistency. It's just that for some of them, Sorin, for example, despite having their achievement/characteristic mentioned to define them, they somehow still decide to put those characters in stories that only serve to derail their established theme. That's what some people are complaining about.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
and so this thread goes silent while people go to disuss all the juicy spoilers
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/campaign-vengeance-2016-07-06
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
"Her swords orbited above her head, a crown of blades that marked this as her domain."
I'm going to say that acting like Kozilek is not a good sign.
Yeah, the girl in white sure lasted a long time. At least Olivia survived.
Not the worst writing I've seen, though Ari needs to learn to break up his descriptive sentances. I'm still wondering what part of the story James Wyatt is going to ruin this time.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit