Did anyone else get a rush of excitement and emotion when Avacyn appeared, soaring at Nahiri like a meteor. I expected Avacyn to win, even if she demonstrated some remarkable feats before almost losing to Nahiri. Avacyn was also just newly created after all. Then again, this is Oldwalker timeframes, so I suppose Nahiri being too much for her makes sense at that moment. But now, I can see Avacyn getting the upper hand. Too bad Nahiri twisted her to circumvent that mending power loss, and did something worse than ending Avacyn outright, even if she could.
I love Avacyn as a character. One of my favorites. I'm walking on eggshells reading these stories because I started MTG with AVR as my first pre-release. I had seen Innistrad and Dark Ascension and loved the dark world, wondering what Avacyn, this angel, exactly was. Then I really got into the lore and story with an amazing positive ending and the best pre-release ever. Holding my breath about the approach of Anguished Unmaking's story.
Sorin and Tibalt didn't actually fight. Also Nahiri was paining him because he had just worn himself out creating Avacyn. He even said himself that if he hadn't been worn out he would have our her in her place.
So that mean when Ugin asks Sorin about Nahiri he feels guilty because he suddenly remembered he forgot her in there. I just see Sorin going "oops I forgot to take Nahiri out of the Helvault"
It seems clear to me that Olivia is going to force Sorin to end Avacyn in order to secure her aid. Perhaps she isn't beyond salvation, but Sorin needs the Vampires' help against Nahiri more than he needs Avacyn's at this point.
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It seems clear to me that Olivia is going to force Sorin to end Avacyn in order to secure her aid. Perhaps she isn't beyond salvation, but Sorin needs the Vampires' help against Nahiri more than he needs Avacyn's at this point.
I think she'll ask him to contain Avacyn, knowing deep down inside that he'll have to end her to do it. Sorin isn't going to murder his own daughter for an army of any kind.
So that mean when Ugin asks Sorin about Nahiri he feels guilty because he suddenly remembered he forgot her in there. I just see Sorin going "oops I forgot to take Nahiri out of the Helvault"
Well no. When Sorin cracked Ugins cocoon Lili had already forced Thalia to shatter the Helvault. Not to mention we don't have anything close to confirmation that he put her in there. Seems to me if he had he would have gone after her when the Helvault was broken. I mean it's been two years since Avacyn Restored. You'd think something would have happened.
Well no. When Sorin cracked Ugins cocoon Lili had already forced Thalia to shatter the Helvault. Not to mention we don't have anything close to confirmation that he put her in there. Seems to me if he had he would have gone after her when the Helvault was broken. I mean it's been two years since Avacyn Restored. You'd think something would have happened.
I don't think he knew Avacyn was trapped in the Helvault though. I had the impression he couldn't "sense" Avacyn and when the Helvault broke, he "sensed" Avacyn's presence, determined his plane was alright and just left the plane. I don't think he shares that same link with the Helvault itself, so there's a possibility he never knew the Helvault was broken.
Sorin doesn't really visit his home plane that often (considering he's cast out by the Vampires), considering he was missing since Avacyn was sealed in the Helvault all the way until the events of the first block, then never returned since Avacyn Restored until now, because Ugin reminded him of Nahiri.
This story made me ask more questions than anything else.
So how does the Helvault work in imprisoning Avacyn???
Liliana forced Thalia to break it... Sorin did nothing and still welcomes Liliana in his realm???
Nahiri just... goes from ":D" to ">:(" because he didn't return her call???
Sorin, when weakened, decides to pick a fight with her???
Olivia treats Sorin like crap and other vampires do too... yet Sorin is more powerful than any of them... and some neonates try to harm him? Did his reputation just vanish?
Sorin doesn't know what is going on with Avacyn??? He can track anyone that comes to his plane but doesn't know where his own creation is?
Really happy they didn't retcon Nahiri's mood when searching for Sorin. Now it makes a lot more sense seeing as she has a viable reason for being angry at Sorin. I assume we'll see more of this flashback in some form or another, showing her eventual fall into madness. Considering the whole cryptolith thing and Innistrad's denizens going mad seems to be a fairly new development on Innistrad... It almost seems like the "Sorin put Nahiri in the Helvault" theory is a lot more reasonable. Also I wonder how long Avacyn was around on Innistrad by the time Nahiri was there.
Sorin was still weakened from creating Avacyn and the Helvault, so it sounds like it was still recent. If thats the case, Nahiri was probably one of the first prisoners, and has been locked away for over a thousand years. That amount of time in a prison, regardless of the reason or justification, would drive anyone crazy.
Lahiri's change of attitude through out this entire expansion has been rather... radical. I'm very unconvinced if this chapter is the only answer we got. She has every right to be angry, but her vengeance was uncalled for, especially since Sorin is still quite important if she ever wants to imprison Eldrazi again (not knowing the Gatewatch had killed them). I'd think for living that long Nahiri would have some wisdom of patience.
Am also convinced that she was locked in the Helvault as Prisoner 001. But in that case, why didn't she planeswalk back to Zendikar the moment she was free?
I believe she did. The Eldrazi were loose and destroying Zendikar when the Helvault opened. She probably went there, Ugin is MIA, Sorin is an enemy, she probably has no hope of saving her plane, so I think she probably went back to destroy Innistrad for revenge.
Lahiri's change of attitude through out this entire expansion has been rather... radical. I'm very unconvinced if this chapter is the only answer we got. She has every right to be angry, but her vengeance was uncalled for, especially since Sorin is still quite important if she ever wants to imprison Eldrazi again (not knowing the Gatewatch had killed them). I'd think for living that long Nahiri would have some wisdom of patience.
Unless Liliana is at work somehow...
Gotta love Sorin's dad's name.
When she finally got out, her home was in the process of being destroyed. She never would have allowed the Eldrazi to rise if she was there, but if Sorin locked her in the Helvault, then its kinda his fault. I believe she thought all was lost, and there was nothing else she could do but to destroy Innistrad as payback.
My understanding of the Helvault is if you're sealed, you're unable to break open from the inside.
I know that some are believing Nahiri was sealed inside, but what perks me is that Liliana was there when Helvault opened. How could she, or Nahiri for that matter, not sense one another? That's a huge hole for creative to cover.
This story made me ask more questions than anything else.
So how does the Helvault work in imprisoning Avacyn???
Liliana forced Thalia to break it... Sorin did nothing and still welcomes Liliana in his realm???
Nahiri just... goes from ":D" to ">:(" because he didn't return her call???
Sorin, when weakened, decides to pick a fight with her???
Olivia treats Sorin like crap and other vampires do too... yet Sorin is more powerful than any of them... and some neonates try to harm him? Did his reputation just vanish?
Sorin doesn't know what is going on with Avacyn??? He can track anyone that comes to his plane but doesn't know where his own creation is?
I am awfully confused...
Some of this is canon that most of us know. Briefly, in order:
1) Avacyn was dragged into the helvault by a demon who she was locking up. (I think, its been a while, you can look it up)
2) eh, not sure, this is fuzzy.
3) not just that, he also made it clear that he didn't care about her home that much after all she risked for him and Ugin, and he was reluctant to even agree to briefly stop by to make sure the wards were properly in place.
4) She threatened him first. Things escalated when Avacyn flew in.
5) Its been millennia. The young little neonates only know him by reputation and probably wanted to prove themselves or something, I dunno. Anyway its Olivia's house, she's not going to cower before him when she has her whole army nearby
6) eh, could be part of the helvault's magic. If the helvault blocked Nahiri's call, maybe it blocked him from sensing Avacyn.
My understanding of the Helvault is if you're sealed, you're unable to break open from the inside.
I know that some are believing Nahiri was sealed inside, but what perks me is that Liliana was there when Helvault opened. How could she, or Nahiri for that matter, not sense one another? That's a huge hole for creative to cover.
I wouldn't call that a huge hole. Lili only cared about the demon she needed to kill. Everything else is trivial detail. All kinds of crazy demons and Avacyn were also flying out of there, there was probably chaos and a lot going on.
If it was Avacyn that sealed Nahiri without Sorin's knowledge it could be possible and woudn't create as mutch plot holes as now if Sorin did indeed sealed Nahiri in the Hellvault
If it was Avacyn that sealed Nahiri without Sorin's knowledge it could be possible and woudn't create as mutch plot holes as now if Sorin did indeed sealed Nahiri in the Hellvault
Thats possible. Its not clear if Sorin immediately locked up Nahiri after the flashback, or if he eventually agreed to go back to Zendikar and then something else happened later. Based on Sorin ominously saying "for what its worth, I never wanted this, young one", my guess is she got locked up right away, and Nahiri was never able to leave until the Helvault opened.
This would also explain why Sorin's art shows him standing in front of the Helvault remains. He went to check there to see what had happened, and if he could find any clues as to what happened with Nahiri.
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I wouldn't call that a huge hole. Lili only cared about the demon she needed to kill. Everything else is trivial detail. All kinds of crazy demons and Avacyn were also flying out of there, there was probably chaos and a lot going on.
I get what you're saying, but if Nahiri's presumably sealed in there, it's difficult to imagine that she's one of the weak ones there. I would believe that she's the most powerful presence in Helvault. One might be distracted by all the flying nonsense that's released, but it'd be pretty hard to ignore a walker's aura.
The way the Helvault broke opened, my detail's a little fuzzy. I wonder how they would "come out". Like bursting out like a grenade, so they'll be a little rattled and shaken, or something like merely walking out the door.
Sorin is sutch an ass but Nahiri was very hostile so both acted childish. Because of aa childish fight milhions ended up sufering inderectly because of it. Oldwalkers really are crazy
I wouldn't call that a huge hole. Lili only cared about the demon she needed to kill. Everything else is trivial detail. All kinds of crazy demons and Avacyn were also flying out of there, there was probably chaos and a lot going on.
I get what you're saying, but if Nahiri's presumably sealed in there, it's difficult to imagine that she's one of the weak ones there. I would believe that she's the most powerful presence in Helvault. One might be distracted by all the flying nonsense that's released, but it'd be pretty hard to ignore a walker's aura.
The way the Helvault broke opened, my detail's a little fuzzy. I wonder how they would "come out". Like bursting out like a grenade, so they'll be a little rattled and shaken, or something like merely walking out the door.
At the same time, you'd also think Liliana would've mentioned Nahiri to Jace if she could sense her. Speaking of, who's to say they can sense each other?
Did anyone else get a rush of excitement and emotion when Avacyn appeared, soaring at Nahiri like a meteor. I expected Avacyn to win, even if she demonstrated some remarkable feats before almost losing to Nahiri. Avacyn was also just newly created after all. Then again, this is Oldwalker timeframes, so I suppose Nahiri being too much for her makes sense at that moment. But now, I can see Avacyn getting the upper hand. Too bad Nahiri twisted her to circumvent that mending power loss, and did something worse than ending Avacyn outright, even if she could.
I love Avacyn as a character. One of my favorites. I'm walking on eggshells reading these stories because I started MTG with AVR as my first pre-release. I had seen Innistrad and Dark Ascension and loved the dark world, wondering what Avacyn, this angel, exactly was. Then I really got into the lore and story with an amazing positive ending and the best pre-release ever. Holding my breath about the approach of Anguished Unmaking's story.
Oh boy, how are you gonna feel when Avacyn is trying to skewer Jace?
Yay! Exposition! And yup - oldwalkers be bat***** crazy all right.
I think Sorin was pretty cranky during the flashback part of this because he was really meant to still be piecing his essence back together after creating both Avacyn and the Helvault (interestingly, as a protection against interplanar threats - which is somewhat ominous for EMN...) I mean, I'm pretty cranky too if someone wakes me up too early, so I think he was initially pleasant to Nahiri, but as soon as she started getting accusatory he was just 'Oh FFS. I don't need this *****.'
So yeah - Sorin was in a bad mood because he was knackered and Nahiri over-reacted and assumed the worst of him (seems he genuinely hadn't thought about his Innistrad Defense System interfering with the Zendikar distress beacon). Six of one and half-a-dozen of the other. I'm sure the millions who are now dead as a consequence will find that hugely comforting...
Really liked the interplay between Olivia and Sorin here. Really liked the Nahiri v Avacyn scrap and the clarification of Sorin's control over Avacyn. Really liked the filling in of all sorts of important details. A+++. Would read again.
I wouldn't call that a huge hole. Lili only cared about the demon she needed to kill. Everything else is trivial detail. All kinds of crazy demons and Avacyn were also flying out of there, there was probably chaos and a lot going on.
I get what you're saying, but if Nahiri's presumably sealed in there, it's difficult to imagine that she's one of the weak ones there. I would believe that she's the most powerful presence in Helvault. One might be distracted by all the flying nonsense that's released, but it'd be pretty hard to ignore a walker's aura.
The way the Helvault broke opened, my detail's a little fuzzy. I wonder how they would "come out". Like bursting out like a grenade, so they'll be a little rattled and shaken, or something like merely walking out the door.
At the same time, you'd also think Liliana would've mentioned Nahiri to Jace if she could sense her. Speaking of, who's to say they can sense each other?
Hadn't thought of that. Who can and can't sense other PW? Maybe its just a Sorin thing. Maybe Sorin can no longer sense PW on innistrad without his creations.
So, after reading the story I came here and after reading post here I had to go back and read the story. What makes people think that Sorin sealed Nahiri in the Helvualt? If not for knowledge that she was alive his last line would lead me to believe that he killed her, or at least let Avacyn kill her. I didn't see anything that would lead me to believe he would seal her. Sealing her in the Helvualt would require a retcon of Teeth of Akoum, so unless it explicitly tells us she was sealed I don't see the point of jumping to a conclusion that requires retconing current lore.
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I love Avacyn as a character. One of my favorites. I'm walking on eggshells reading these stories because I started MTG with AVR as my first pre-release. I had seen Innistrad and Dark Ascension and loved the dark world, wondering what Avacyn, this angel, exactly was. Then I really got into the lore and story with an amazing positive ending and the best pre-release ever. Holding my breath about the approach of Anguished Unmaking's story.
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Well no. When Sorin cracked Ugins cocoon Lili had already forced Thalia to shatter the Helvault. Not to mention we don't have anything close to confirmation that he put her in there. Seems to me if he had he would have gone after her when the Helvault was broken. I mean it's been two years since Avacyn Restored. You'd think something would have happened.
I don't think he knew Avacyn was trapped in the Helvault though. I had the impression he couldn't "sense" Avacyn and when the Helvault broke, he "sensed" Avacyn's presence, determined his plane was alright and just left the plane. I don't think he shares that same link with the Helvault itself, so there's a possibility he never knew the Helvault was broken.
Sorin doesn't really visit his home plane that often (considering he's cast out by the Vampires), considering he was missing since Avacyn was sealed in the Helvault all the way until the events of the first block, then never returned since Avacyn Restored until now, because Ugin reminded him of Nahiri.
So how does the Helvault work in imprisoning Avacyn???
Liliana forced Thalia to break it... Sorin did nothing and still welcomes Liliana in his realm???
Nahiri just... goes from ":D" to ">:(" because he didn't return her call???
Sorin, when weakened, decides to pick a fight with her???
Olivia treats Sorin like crap and other vampires do too... yet Sorin is more powerful than any of them... and some neonates try to harm him? Did his reputation just vanish?
Sorin doesn't know what is going on with Avacyn??? He can track anyone that comes to his plane but doesn't know where his own creation is?
I am awfully confused...
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Sorin was still weakened from creating Avacyn and the Helvault, so it sounds like it was still recent. If thats the case, Nahiri was probably one of the first prisoners, and has been locked away for over a thousand years. That amount of time in a prison, regardless of the reason or justification, would drive anyone crazy.
Unless Liliana is at work somehow...
Gotta love Sorin's dad's name.
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Yeah i can understand her been pissed to all hell. Sorin is kinda of an ass.
But still doesn't make sense that when he arrived to Zendikar and other momments he din't knew the location of Nahiri..
I believe she did. The Eldrazi were loose and destroying Zendikar when the Helvault opened. She probably went there, Ugin is MIA, Sorin is an enemy, she probably has no hope of saving her plane, so I think she probably went back to destroy Innistrad for revenge.
When she finally got out, her home was in the process of being destroyed. She never would have allowed the Eldrazi to rise if she was there, but if Sorin locked her in the Helvault, then its kinda his fault. I believe she thought all was lost, and there was nothing else she could do but to destroy Innistrad as payback.
I know that some are believing Nahiri was sealed inside, but what perks me is that Liliana was there when Helvault opened. How could she, or Nahiri for that matter, not sense one another? That's a huge hole for creative to cover.
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Some of this is canon that most of us know. Briefly, in order:
1) Avacyn was dragged into the helvault by a demon who she was locking up. (I think, its been a while, you can look it up)
2) eh, not sure, this is fuzzy.
3) not just that, he also made it clear that he didn't care about her home that much after all she risked for him and Ugin, and he was reluctant to even agree to briefly stop by to make sure the wards were properly in place.
4) She threatened him first. Things escalated when Avacyn flew in.
5) Its been millennia. The young little neonates only know him by reputation and probably wanted to prove themselves or something, I dunno. Anyway its Olivia's house, she's not going to cower before him when she has her whole army nearby
6) eh, could be part of the helvault's magic. If the helvault blocked Nahiri's call, maybe it blocked him from sensing Avacyn.
I wouldn't call that a huge hole. Lili only cared about the demon she needed to kill. Everything else is trivial detail. All kinds of crazy demons and Avacyn were also flying out of there, there was probably chaos and a lot going on.
Thats possible. Its not clear if Sorin immediately locked up Nahiri after the flashback, or if he eventually agreed to go back to Zendikar and then something else happened later. Based on Sorin ominously saying "for what its worth, I never wanted this, young one", my guess is she got locked up right away, and Nahiri was never able to leave until the Helvault opened.
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The way the Helvault broke opened, my detail's a little fuzzy. I wonder how they would "come out". Like bursting out like a grenade, so they'll be a little rattled and shaken, or something like merely walking out the door.
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At the same time, you'd also think Liliana would've mentioned Nahiri to Jace if she could sense her. Speaking of, who's to say they can sense each other?
Oh boy, how are you gonna feel when Avacyn is trying to skewer Jace?
I think Sorin was pretty cranky during the flashback part of this because he was really meant to still be piecing his essence back together after creating both Avacyn and the Helvault (interestingly, as a protection against interplanar threats - which is somewhat ominous for EMN...) I mean, I'm pretty cranky too if someone wakes me up too early, so I think he was initially pleasant to Nahiri, but as soon as she started getting accusatory he was just 'Oh FFS. I don't need this *****.'
So yeah - Sorin was in a bad mood because he was knackered and Nahiri over-reacted and assumed the worst of him (seems he genuinely hadn't thought about his Innistrad Defense System interfering with the Zendikar distress beacon). Six of one and half-a-dozen of the other. I'm sure the millions who are now dead as a consequence will find that hugely comforting...
Really liked the interplay between Olivia and Sorin here. Really liked the Nahiri v Avacyn scrap and the clarification of Sorin's control over Avacyn. Really liked the filling in of all sorts of important details. A+++. Would read again.
Hadn't thought of that. Who can and can't sense other PW? Maybe its just a Sorin thing. Maybe Sorin can no longer sense PW on innistrad without his creations.