When Yawgmoth was part of the story, they really shied away from depicting incredibly powerful creatures, like Planeswalkers. I think they felt he was simply too powerful to make it onto a card.
He would not be a planeswalker, but a Legendary Creature. Maybe even Legendary Artifact Creature.
Side Note: We were talking here about characters who don't have cards who really should.
He's entirely too powerful is why. In the era of 'Godlike Planeswalkers' he was as a God to THEM, power-wise, and everyone involved was fully aware of this.
At his peak power level, during Invasion era I believe, I would go so far as to say he would easily have whupped old walker Nicol Bolas (and probably Ugin too, perhaps even simultaneously) without so much as breaking a sweat and probably wouldn't have really had too much difficulty containing (if not just obliterating with a single ******* WHIM) any of the Eldrazi titans either. He was THAT powerful before they killed him.
COSMICALLY powerful character like him cannot possibly exist in card form. You might just run into a brick wall trying to fit his casting cost on the card..
I mean, without getting too much into Custom Card Creation, Yawgmoth could be a card. He would just, on entering the battlefield, have to cause all creatures and planeswalkers to be sacrificed and then returned to play under his control. It That Betrays plus Reiver Demon (obviously with Sac effect instead of destroy) at an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn-level casting cost.
Having finally been reading the pre-mending lore, I think the god-like powers of planeswalkers are overstated. They certainly have an extreme level of power, but they seem more akin the Theros' gods than the omnipotent beings that they're often made out to be.
I mean, without getting too much into Custom Card Creation, Yawgmoth could be a card. He would just, on entering the battlefield, have to cause all creatures and planeswalkers to be sacrificed and then returned to play under his control. It That Betrays plus Reiver Demon (obviously with Sac effect instead of destroy) at an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn-level casting cost.
Having finally been reading the pre-mending lore, I think the god-like powers of planeswalkers are overstated. They certainly have an extreme level of power, but they seem more akin the Theros' gods than the omnipotent beings that they're often made out to be.
That's just it though. Why not simply create them at such high casting costs with powerful effects? EDH is all about Timmy-Vorthos moments. Besides, we have Oldwalker cards for Teferi and Freylaise which were celebrated. No one who wants to play these character cards is going to look at a 15 or heck 100 CMC Yawgmoth and think "oh man, this isn't Modern playable at all, what a disappointment." Come on now.
I agree they're more akin to the Theros gods in terms of power. Which is a very respectable power level regardless, but not as overstated as before. Still, it's a far cry from what they are, or should be now, which I actually feel makes for better storytelling anyway when done correctly.
That's just it though. Why not simply create them at such high casting costs with powerful effects? EDH is all about Timmy-Vorthos moments. Besides, we have Oldwalker cards for Teferi and Freylaise which were celebrated. No one who wants to play these character cards is going to look at a 15 or heck 100 CMC Yawgmoth and think "oh man, this isn't Modern playable at all, what a disappointment." Come on now.
Well, who says we won't see it? It seems like Wizards JUST caught on that people want their cards to be Vorthos-y, and are adjusting their Commander products accordingly.
That's just it though. Why not simply create them at such high casting costs with powerful effects? EDH is all about Timmy-Vorthos moments. Besides, we have Oldwalker cards for Teferi and Freylaise which were celebrated. No one who wants to play these character cards is going to look at a 15 or heck 100 CMC Yawgmoth and think "oh man, this isn't Modern playable at all, what a disappointment." Come on now.
Well, who says we won't see it? It seems like Wizards JUST caught on that people want their cards to be Vorthos-y, and are adjusting their Commander products accordingly.
Honestly, it's happening at a glacial pace. The last Commander product had Daxos, who we already have a card for, as a zombie, and that's basically it. The rest were new "characters" with barely any flavor or story behind them. The only Commander product that came close was 2014 which was a Vorthos treasure trove. But it wasn't done as thoroughly with the 2015 series. If the next one is just another feature of stale new characters... IDK, I just don't like being wrapped up with past characters instead of looking to the future ones.
I mean, without getting too much into Custom Card Creation, Yawgmoth could be a card. He would just, on entering the battlefield, have to cause all creatures and planeswalkers to be sacrificed and then returned to play under his control. It That Betrays plus Reiver Demon (obviously with Sac effect instead of destroy) at an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn-level casting cost.
Having finally been reading the pre-mending lore, I think the god-like powers of planeswalkers are overstated. They certainly have an extreme level of power, but they seem more akin the Theros' gods than the omnipotent beings that they're often made out to be.
You know, I'm not fully aware of all the details of his background but from what I know, that actually sounds perfect. Make it return all creatures in all graveyards to play under your control as well and I actually think that's a perfectly huge and splashy effect. An extra flavor rider would maybe have them come into play treated as artifacts but it's not necessary mechanically or even really flavorfully either.
Pre-Father of Machines, Thran Yawgmoth would probably be a different card entirely. I could see that one interacting with -1/-1 counters incrementally somehow.
Speaking of the Commander products, I did notice that C14 had more story-important characters in it than C15 which is weird since disregarding flashback nostalgia characters they've said they wanted to tie the products more to the story at large. I guess Mizzix and Karlov kind of do since both were part of stories that feel like seeds to a return to return to Ravnica storyline in the distant future, but the others seem kind of random. Even Daxos in my opinion.
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They didn't care that he was the savior of Fort Keff, the great hunter of Ondu, the champion of Kabira. To them, he was just another piece of flesh, a thing with life to be drained away.
Honestly, it's happening at a glacial pace. The last Commander product had Daxos, who we already have a card for, as a zombie, and that's basically it. The rest were new "characters" with barely any flavor or story behind them. The only Commander product that came close was 2014 which was a Vorthos treasure trove. But it wasn't done as thoroughly with the 2015 series. If the next one is just another feature of stale new characters... IDK, I just don't like being wrapped up with past characters instead of looking to the future ones.
Ezuri would like a word with you. Which I actually think makes up a good deal for the lack of things like Teferi and Freyalis. I mean we got actual new content about old characters rather than old content with a new skin.
If Yawgmoth got a card I would prefer his human form(when he was a healer) rather than the death-cloud he was when he invaded Dominaria. If we got Glacian as a Legendary and a Dyfed walker in the same batch, maybe a Gix. I can't think of any other time frame that would yield such interesting yet to be carded characters.
Yawgmoth was dull as dishwater in the Invasion era. I did like him in The Thran, though. I wish that had made it through to the later novels (chronologically speaking). His card would need to have Yawgmoth's Will and Yawgmoth's Bargain as two of the abilities for sure. Otherwise, the players would riot.
Several years ago I read the entire 12 book cycle beginning with The Thran and ending with Apocalypse, but I honestly can't remember much of any of it except for The Thran, which I really enjoyed. The Invasion cycle was disappointing I recall. I don't remember what Yawgmoth was like or how he got defeated.
But I've always liked the character and idea of Yawgmoth. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point they make a card for him. They could just make him cost 30 or something.
That's just it though. Why not simply create them at such high casting costs with powerful effects? EDH is all about Timmy-Vorthos moments. Besides, we have Oldwalker cards for Teferi and Freylaise which were celebrated. No one who wants to play these character cards is going to look at a 15 or heck 100 CMC Yawgmoth and think "oh man, this isn't Modern playable at all, what a disappointment." Come on now.
Well, who says we won't see it? It seems like Wizards JUST caught on that people want their cards to be Vorthos-y, and are adjusting their Commander products accordingly.
Honestly, it's happening at a glacial pace. The last Commander product had Daxos, who we already have a card for, as a zombie, and that's basically it. The rest were new "characters" with barely any flavor or story behind them. The only Commander product that came close was 2014 which was a Vorthos treasure trove. But it wasn't done as thoroughly with the 2015 series. If the next one is just another feature of stale new characters... IDK, I just don't like being wrapped up with past characters instead of looking to the future ones.
Remember that Wizards works two years in advance. Since everyone seemed to enjoy the old characters who never got a card getting one I'm pretty sure we will be getting more.
Also remember the theme of the commander decks. 2014 was old characters we never got as cards/ planeswalker commanders (1/5 being a character we never got as a card, 2/5 being character who we won't know if we'd ever see in planeswalker card form again and 1/5 was a new character. Because of tricky the design is for these cards I understand why not all of them where characters who had never been in card before.) Commodore 2015 was looking at/checking in with past planes with Alara, Theros, Ravnica and Kamigawa being featured.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I think it's a bit of everything that's been mentioned here.
He was the original Big Bad for magic. When he was relevant, they weren't printing cards for the superpower planeswalkers, and Yawgmoth was more powerful than the 9 at that point, so there was this power balance issue. Printing them as opposed sides would have been difficult at best, and most would have been so far out of balance that playing them would have been nigh impossible, without them being just a limited facet of the actual character.
Secondly, there's an old Dungeons and Dragons axiom: when you stat something, players will try to kill it. If we get a Yawgmoth card, then players will compare him to eventually better cards, and he ends up being more limited, instead of having this mystique of how great he really was or how powerful a card of his could truly be.
Sure, they ended up printing planeswalker cards like Teferi and Jaya Ballard, but those were time spiral cards where they were trying something new before introducing the new concept of post-mending planeswalkers.
Yawgmoth, like Urza, is/was simply too big for one card. His story spanned millennia and his powers were myriad. JUst think of every single Old Phyrexia card as parts of him, in the same way the Legacy and Urza's assorted toys were his representation in Magic (Blind Seer doesn't exist to me).
The key is to make the actual Yawgmoth as degenerate as cards bearing his name. Speaking of Yawgmoth's Bargain and Yawgmoth's Will. Throw in a third ability that fetches artifacts, or makes generic mana and you have a fine tip o the hat to Combo Winter.
We wont get a Yawgmoth card because he is too big and powerful an entity to be portrayed in card form. The eldrazi titans probably should have been the same way in hindsight (although it's seeming they weren't quite as unstopable as Sorin and Nahiri were led to believe).
I feel a good compromise to player's desire for a Yawgmoth card would be the printing of a card for Gix. As one of Yawgmoth's most prominent demon lieutenants he would fulfill the vacuum for a powerful representation of old Phyrexia while not having to be a force so broken making him a card would be silly. That's how I see it anyway.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Not Maro referring to these character card requests in his article today! OOHHHHH.
Arixmethes mention!
Yeah, that was really excting, especially for the 'Which Characters don't have cards' thread. The only cards I really want that he hasn't mentioned would be Ashnod, Tawnos and Gix - All characters from card names who never got their own cards.
I think part of it is when we are talking about oldwalkers we are talking about entities that could literally and sometimes did create and collapse entire planes. And whose actions almost destroyed the entire multiverse. Such a card should be incredibly powerful beyond what we've seen. And here we have Yagmoth someone who also possibly created a plane who can take on several of these oldwalkers at once. Nigh unbeatable. There's no real way to put that kind of power on a card that wont disappoint those in the lore... not to mention they've also kind of purposefully kept his appearance a mystery.
That said I could see them maybe making a younger him as a thran healer.
He would not be a planeswalker, but a Legendary Creature. Maybe even Legendary Artifact Creature.
Side Note: We were talking here about characters who don't have cards who really should.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
At his peak power level, during Invasion era I believe, I would go so far as to say he would easily have whupped old walker Nicol Bolas (and probably Ugin too, perhaps even simultaneously) without so much as breaking a sweat and probably wouldn't have really had too much difficulty containing (if not just obliterating with a single ******* WHIM) any of the Eldrazi titans either. He was THAT powerful before they killed him.
COSMICALLY powerful character like him cannot possibly exist in card form. You might just run into a brick wall trying to fit his casting cost on the card..
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Having finally been reading the pre-mending lore, I think the god-like powers of planeswalkers are overstated. They certainly have an extreme level of power, but they seem more akin the Theros' gods than the omnipotent beings that they're often made out to be.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
That's just it though. Why not simply create them at such high casting costs with powerful effects? EDH is all about Timmy-Vorthos moments. Besides, we have Oldwalker cards for Teferi and Freylaise which were celebrated. No one who wants to play these character cards is going to look at a 15 or heck 100 CMC Yawgmoth and think "oh man, this isn't Modern playable at all, what a disappointment." Come on now.
I agree they're more akin to the Theros gods in terms of power. Which is a very respectable power level regardless, but not as overstated as before. Still, it's a far cry from what they are, or should be now, which I actually feel makes for better storytelling anyway when done correctly.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Honestly, it's happening at a glacial pace. The last Commander product had Daxos, who we already have a card for, as a zombie, and that's basically it. The rest were new "characters" with barely any flavor or story behind them. The only Commander product that came close was 2014 which was a Vorthos treasure trove. But it wasn't done as thoroughly with the 2015 series. If the next one is just another feature of stale new characters... IDK, I just don't like being wrapped up with past characters instead of looking to the future ones.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
You know, I'm not fully aware of all the details of his background but from what I know, that actually sounds perfect. Make it return all creatures in all graveyards to play under your control as well and I actually think that's a perfectly huge and splashy effect. An extra flavor rider would maybe have them come into play treated as artifacts but it's not necessary mechanically or even really flavorfully either.
Pre-Father of Machines, Thran Yawgmoth would probably be a different card entirely. I could see that one interacting with -1/-1 counters incrementally somehow.
Speaking of the Commander products, I did notice that C14 had more story-important characters in it than C15 which is weird since disregarding flashback nostalgia characters they've said they wanted to tie the products more to the story at large. I guess Mizzix and Karlov kind of do since both were part of stories that feel like seeds to a return to return to Ravnica storyline in the distant future, but the others seem kind of random. Even Daxos in my opinion.
But the people behind the barrier knew.
Very much this.
During Invasion block I couldn't even picture him when I was reading the novels. And I liked it that way.
Ezuri would like a word with you. Which I actually think makes up a good deal for the lack of things like Teferi and Freyalis. I mean we got actual new content about old characters rather than old content with a new skin.
But I've always liked the character and idea of Yawgmoth. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point they make a card for him. They could just make him cost 30 or something.
Remember that Wizards works two years in advance. Since everyone seemed to enjoy the old characters who never got a card getting one I'm pretty sure we will be getting more.
Also remember the theme of the commander decks. 2014 was old characters we never got as cards/ planeswalker commanders (1/5 being a character we never got as a card, 2/5 being character who we won't know if we'd ever see in planeswalker card form again and 1/5 was a new character. Because of tricky the design is for these cards I understand why not all of them where characters who had never been in card before.) Commodore 2015 was looking at/checking in with past planes with Alara, Theros, Ravnica and Kamigawa being featured.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
He was the original Big Bad for magic. When he was relevant, they weren't printing cards for the superpower planeswalkers, and Yawgmoth was more powerful than the 9 at that point, so there was this power balance issue. Printing them as opposed sides would have been difficult at best, and most would have been so far out of balance that playing them would have been nigh impossible, without them being just a limited facet of the actual character.
Secondly, there's an old Dungeons and Dragons axiom: when you stat something, players will try to kill it. If we get a Yawgmoth card, then players will compare him to eventually better cards, and he ends up being more limited, instead of having this mystique of how great he really was or how powerful a card of his could truly be.
Sure, they ended up printing planeswalker cards like Teferi and Jaya Ballard, but those were time spiral cards where they were trying something new before introducing the new concept of post-mending planeswalkers.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I feel a good compromise to player's desire for a Yawgmoth card would be the printing of a card for Gix. As one of Yawgmoth's most prominent demon lieutenants he would fulfill the vacuum for a powerful representation of old Phyrexia while not having to be a force so broken making him a card would be silly. That's how I see it anyway.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Not Maro referring to these character card requests in his article today! OOHHHHH.
Arixmethes mention!
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
That said I could see them maybe making a younger him as a thran healer.
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Face_the_Hydra