I've been thinking lately that with the Gatewatch founded it would be likely to see some evil league of Planeswalkers to do a hero vs villian showdown. Obviously Nicol Bolas would be in it and I could see him teaming up with Ob Nixilis and maybe Ashiok. What are your thoughts?
We've essentially already had this in multiple forms.
The Infinite Consortium, run by Tezzeret, was an interplanar sydicate.
Nicol Bolas uses a bunch of planeswalkers as agents, including the Consortium.
I would rather see it evolve more naturally than the gatewatch. In general, villains don't want to team-up because their goals are too different. Especially self-centered black villains.
Tibalt: "We can call ourselves the Behemoths Of Lascivious Actions and Seditiousness! BOLAS for short!! >:D "
Ob: Nope. Nopenopenope.
Bolas: *pops head in through dimensional fabric* " Who said Bolas? :D"
Ob: *exasperated sigh*
My instncts tell me if they tried this they may just create evil versions of the Origins 5 and throw them together, and save the established villains for other roles.
As someone said so long as this doesn't come off forced, this could be great, But it can't be shoehorned.
Like the Gatewatch and protagonists, not every antagonist should be a part of "Team-Rouge", that would get old really quick.
I can see a few characters being agents of Bolas (in addition to Tezz), some include Ashiok, Tibalt, and maybe Vraska. These are just opinions tho, no real logic to them.
I don't see Ob EVER joining with Bolas. Both are Oldwalkers, both are highly ambitious, both are powerful, Bolas moreso than Ob I'm afraid.
No Ob will be always remembered as the Gatewatch's first real Planeswalker nemesis, like Loki to the Avengers in the Cinema-universe. But he won't be their greatest threat for sure....
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“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I could see this starting as Ob with Tibalt as his henchman.
Ob: Tibalt! Why do you torment that thing so?
Tibalt: It's what I do.
Maybe Vraska would work for them from time to time. And I could see Ashiok coming along for the ride later.
Actually, those four would make a reasonable foil to the four current Gatewatchers. Ob v Gideon is already established; Tibalt could square off against Chandra (he surely isn't bothered by a bit of fire, after spending that long around devils?); Ashiok is already Dark Jace; and Vraska v Nissa just seems... fine. I started off thinking this was a bad idea, but actually, using those four, I could come round to it. Tibalt, Vraska and Ashiok don't seem ambitious - they just like doing what they do, so they would go along with Ob's masterplans if it gave them an excuse to indulge their own particular forms of mayhem. Just don't involve Bolas.
In general, villains don't want to team-up because their goals are too different. Especially self-centered black villains.
Very much this. In addition, the villain planeswalkers also tend to be a lot more powerful than the heroes individually (See epic smackdown by Ob Nixilis), so they'll probably just have the team focus on one big bad and his/her minions/schemes at a time.
In general, villains don't want to team-up because their goals are too different. Especially self-centered black villains.
Very much this. In addition, the villain planeswalkers also tend to be a lot more powerful than the heroes individually (See epic smackdown by Ob Nixilis), so they'll probably just have the team focus on one big bad and his/her minions/schemes at a time.
I could see the group getting more powerful and then being able to handle Ob Nixilis with relative ease. Remember 3 of the 4 were injured prior to the final fight with Nixilis. Also, as more planeswalkers join the Gatewatch I could see the need of a super villian team up.
I could see this starting as Ob with Tibalt as his henchman.
Ob: Tibalt! Why do you torment that thing so?
Tibalt: It's what I do.
Maybe Vraska would work for them from time to time. And I could see Ashiok coming along for the ride later.
Actually, those four would make a reasonable foil to the four current Gatewatchers. Ob v Gideon is already established; Tibalt could square off against Chandra (he surely isn't bothered by a bit of fire, after spending that long around devils?); Ashiok is already Dark Jace; and Vraska v Nissa just seems... fine. I started off thinking this was a bad idea, but actually, using those four, I could come round to it. Tibalt, Vraska and Ashiok don't seem ambitious - they just like doing what they do, so they would go along with Ob's masterplans if it gave them an excuse to indulge their own particular forms of mayhem. Just don't involve Bolas.
I agree about Vraska, didn't think of that one. And Ashiok would be cool to see a battle inside of Jace's mind for once (maybe in a dream).
If Creative is stupid enough to do this - and that, my friends, is something I have little doubts about -, they seriously need to get new characters, because too many of the current villain planeswalkers are Black, and the few that aren't are either saboutaged (Ral Zarek no longer being evil, Tezzeret, Tibalt and Garruk being shifted to Blue/Black, Black/Red and Black/Green respectively) or dead (Xenagos).
If Creative is stupid enough to do this - and that, my friends, is something I have little doubts about...
I firmly believe we are already seeing the shift towards comics-style storytelling (either because there is an MTG movie on the horizon, because super hero moves are huge right now, or - most likely - some combination of the two), so I think a "Legion of Doom" probably is inevitable, regardless of how cliche it might be. Likewise, Bolas becoming a Thanos / Darkseid-esque mastermind manipulating the other villains from behind the scenes also seems highly likely. (Heck, between whatever he was doing back in the original "Zendikar" and "Scars of Mirrodin" blocks and his involvement in Liliana's demonic pacts, he is pretty much already doing that.)
Since character versus their mirror archetype battles are a staple trope (and recalling that Ashiok was loosely conceived to be a Shadow Archetype to Jace with the intention of fighting Jace), I think some or all of MarkXero's proposed match-ups could eventually happen. I'm very dubious about all of this, but I don't think that's it's automatically a bad idea (in theory, at least). As said, it would have to be written in a very careful and organic way, or it will feel very, very, forced.
Last thought - I wonder if the original proposal for M16 (focusing on MtG's villains) that later turned into Magic Origins would have been about laying the foundations for a future villain team?
The whole Gatewatch idea has potential, but I feel the original method of storytelling might be superior. One where other PWs could serve as the main protagonists depending on the world that suits them. For example, Elspeth as a Knight and Xena Warrior Princess analog on Greek-Mythology world of Theros. Or Ajani and Dack in the Return. They're doing a good job giving all characters a role though, I will say. Even Kiora got a card in BFZ and played a respectable role. So adding some consistency to the storytelling to harken back to the Weatherlight saga could prove to be good. But it'll only work if other PWs are given their due screen time.
If Creative is stupid enough to do this - and that, my friends, is something I have little doubts about -, they seriously need to get new characters, because too many of the current villain planeswalkers are Black, and the few that aren't are either saboutaged (Ral Zarek no longer being evil, Tezzeret, Tibalt and Garruk being shifted to Blue/Black, Black/Red and Black/Green respectively) or dead (Xenagos).
Did you read a different Secretist than I did? Ral was never evil. I think they wanted to be more of a rival for Jace than some sort of evil antagonist. Also: we don't know that they're going to push Tibalt into black. I mean it would make sense but currently he is Red. Tezzie has always been Blue.
However I don't disgree with you in General. I think of they want to make an evil counter team they need new characters. Perhaps led by someone current like Ob(or a personal hypothesis about kiora that i wont go into).
I'm a huge super hero fan so I'm totally ok with an Oathwatch of Doom. I would've pegged Vraska as the leader of that as it frees up Ob to do his own thing. She could work with Tybalt and Ashiok. I agree though if an Injacetus league forms up it can't just be made up of Black PW with various other colors. I would want a speciesist GW "my kind is superior!" pw and a monoU "my genius knows no bounds!" pw to round out the team and make sure there's more color representation.
Lastly can we please get a good (read not fully evil) monoB pw? I know it can be done and I don't want it to be Lili, she's wayyyyyy too sadistic for me to root for her.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Ral Zarek is outright abusive to his underlings, desires to prove himself worthy at the expense of all of Ravnica, and throws a homicidal temper tantrum. Plus he is arrogant and selfish. If he isn't "evil", he is at the very least one of the two key antagonists (the other being the Dimir guild, of course).
I would want a speciesist GW "my kind is superior!" pw and a monoU "my genius knows no bounds!" pw to round out the team and make sure there's more color representation.
Lastly can we please get a good (read not fully evil) monoB pw? I know it can be done and I don't want it to be Lili, she's wayyyyyy too sadistic for me to root for her.
I can get behind all of these things. (There's even precedent: Dromoka is a specie-ist GW antagonist.) I can just imagine a mono-black Oath - "Since I live in the Multiverse too, I will keep watch."
I think the last thing magic's story needs is a carbon copy of the Legion of Doom to go with the carbon copy of the Avengers.
Let's play magic and not comic-book the gathering.
We can always pretend they're not the Legion of Doom. Rather, they're the Black Company of the new MtG lore. Bolas is their Lady. Or, they're the Bonehunters and Bolas is their Crippled God.
Problem solve-ed.
Lily's not sadistic, she gets the job done with the tools that she has. Tibalt is sadistic.
I would say based on just about every flavor text from her ever she is sadistic. It's true that flavor text isn't always the best place to gage the actual characters but if we factor in her appearances in UR and the comics she's still pretty much a scumbag. I would say she definitely isn't the worst of the pw, but I'd much rather have a new monoB character in her place. (A moot point since she's Origins 5 and we're stuck w/ her). I agree that Tibalt is absolutely sadistic and he is correctly billed as a villain (who I hope will have a bigger role going forward).
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Flavor text is 100% valid; the best part is that it is open to your interpretation. What flavor texts are your referring to, K? I'm only familiar with Liliana of the Veil and how she convinced Thalia to break open the Helvault.
Found these on her page on the wiki, I'll admit that there are less than I thought I remembered, my mistake. Anyway I feel all of these show some level of cruelty/sadism. I should mention her plotline battling her demons is one of the ones I'm most interested in, so I'm not against her as a character per se, she's just not my cup of tea. I'm fine w/ her being cruel and ruthless, but the fact that she clearly enjoys it so much makes it hard for me to like her as a character. This is just my personal preference though.
Anyway, getting back to evil gatewatch, I've been thinking about it and I'd really like to see an evil non PW character as a member. We never found out what happened to Squee and the Weatherlight. It would be kind of cool if the ship crashed somewhere and a villain who would've normally been planebound either steals the Weatherlight or builds a new ship based off it's design to become a multiplanar threat.
I was thinking a white villain would be important to the Gatebreakers. An evil Gideon. Someone charismatic that can bring the various other villains together in spite of each of their selfish goals.
The Infinite Consortium, run by Tezzeret, was an interplanar sydicate.
Nicol Bolas uses a bunch of planeswalkers as agents, including the Consortium.
I would rather see it evolve more naturally than the gatewatch. In general, villains don't want to team-up because their goals are too different. Especially self-centered black villains.
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Ob: Nope. Nopenopenope.
Bolas: *pops head in through dimensional fabric* " Who said Bolas? :D"
Ob: *exasperated sigh*
Edit: bah I goofed.
Goof fixed.
Like the Gatewatch and protagonists, not every antagonist should be a part of "Team-Rouge", that would get old really quick.
I can see a few characters being agents of Bolas (in addition to Tezz), some include Ashiok, Tibalt, and maybe Vraska. These are just opinions tho, no real logic to them.
I don't see Ob EVER joining with Bolas. Both are Oldwalkers, both are highly ambitious, both are powerful, Bolas moreso than Ob I'm afraid.
No Ob will be always remembered as the Gatewatch's first real Planeswalker nemesis, like Loki to the Avengers in the Cinema-universe. But he won't be their greatest threat for sure....
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Ob: Tibalt! Why do you torment that thing so?
Tibalt: It's what I do.
Maybe Vraska would work for them from time to time. And I could see Ashiok coming along for the ride later.
Actually, those four would make a reasonable foil to the four current Gatewatchers. Ob v Gideon is already established; Tibalt could square off against Chandra (he surely isn't bothered by a bit of fire, after spending that long around devils?); Ashiok is already Dark Jace; and Vraska v Nissa just seems... fine. I started off thinking this was a bad idea, but actually, using those four, I could come round to it. Tibalt, Vraska and Ashiok don't seem ambitious - they just like doing what they do, so they would go along with Ob's masterplans if it gave them an excuse to indulge their own particular forms of mayhem. Just don't involve Bolas.
Very much this. In addition, the villain planeswalkers also tend to be a lot more powerful than the heroes individually (See epic smackdown by Ob Nixilis), so they'll probably just have the team focus on one big bad and his/her minions/schemes at a time.
I could see the group getting more powerful and then being able to handle Ob Nixilis with relative ease. Remember 3 of the 4 were injured prior to the final fight with Nixilis. Also, as more planeswalkers join the Gatewatch I could see the need of a super villian team up.
I agree about Vraska, didn't think of that one. And Ashiok would be cool to see a battle inside of Jace's mind for once (maybe in a dream).
Let's play magic and not comic-book the gathering.
I firmly believe we are already seeing the shift towards comics-style storytelling (either because there is an MTG movie on the horizon, because super hero moves are huge right now, or - most likely - some combination of the two), so I think a "Legion of Doom" probably is inevitable, regardless of how cliche it might be. Likewise, Bolas becoming a Thanos / Darkseid-esque mastermind manipulating the other villains from behind the scenes also seems highly likely. (Heck, between whatever he was doing back in the original "Zendikar" and "Scars of Mirrodin" blocks and his involvement in Liliana's demonic pacts, he is pretty much already doing that.)
Since character versus their mirror archetype battles are a staple trope (and recalling that Ashiok was loosely conceived to be a Shadow Archetype to Jace with the intention of fighting Jace), I think some or all of MarkXero's proposed match-ups could eventually happen. I'm very dubious about all of this, but I don't think that's it's automatically a bad idea (in theory, at least). As said, it would have to be written in a very careful and organic way, or it will feel very, very, forced.
Last thought - I wonder if the original proposal for M16 (focusing on MtG's villains) that later turned into Magic Origins would have been about laying the foundations for a future villain team?
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Did you read a different Secretist than I did? Ral was never evil. I think they wanted to be more of a rival for Jace than some sort of evil antagonist. Also: we don't know that they're going to push Tibalt into black. I mean it would make sense but currently he is Red. Tezzie has always been Blue.
However I don't disgree with you in General. I think of they want to make an evil counter team they need new characters. Perhaps led by someone current like Ob(or a personal hypothesis about kiora that i wont go into).
Lastly can we please get a good (read not fully evil) monoB pw? I know it can be done and I don't want it to be Lili, she's wayyyyyy too sadistic for me to root for her.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I can get behind all of these things. (There's even precedent: Dromoka is a specie-ist GW antagonist.) I can just imagine a mono-black Oath - "Since I live in the Multiverse too, I will keep watch."
We can always pretend they're not the Legion of Doom. Rather, they're the Black Company of the new MtG lore. Bolas is their Lady. Or, they're the Bonehunters and Bolas is their Crippled God.
Problem solve-ed.
Lily's not sadistic, she gets the job done with the tools that she has. Tibalt is sadistic.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Found these on her page on the wiki, I'll admit that there are less than I thought I remembered, my mistake. Anyway I feel all of these show some level of cruelty/sadism. I should mention her plotline battling her demons is one of the ones I'm most interested in, so I'm not against her as a character per se, she's just not my cup of tea. I'm fine w/ her being cruel and ruthless, but the fact that she clearly enjoys it so much makes it hard for me to like her as a character. This is just my personal preference though.
Anyway, getting back to evil gatewatch, I've been thinking about it and I'd really like to see an evil non PW character as a member. We never found out what happened to Squee and the Weatherlight. It would be kind of cool if the ship crashed somewhere and a villain who would've normally been planebound either steals the Weatherlight or builds a new ship based off it's design to become a multiplanar threat.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I could see that happen.