Ah, yes. Now I remember why I so seldom join message board communities - the constant negativity is so depressing.
But against my better judgement, I really have to ask this: to everyone out there screaming "ruined FOREVER" at every individual development in the current lore, convinced that the villains losing robs a narrative of credibility: what did you want? Since the Mending, there have been about as many blocks where the villains win as not - do you really want them to always triumph? Are you pulling for stories wherein the protagonists are portrayed as consistently stronger than their opponents, so their wins are credible? Do you have some examples of works which adhere to these baffling standards?
If I come off as frustrated, it's because I am, but the question is an honest one. I truly wish to understand this complaint which seems so universal. To be clear, if you're frustrated with the writing quality of some URs - in particular, Nissa's alternating cycles of gaining cosmic power, losing cosmic power, and crying about it - I totally understand that. It's the idea that the shape of this arc in broad terms means the end of the universe which I am confused by.
I'd like a storyline where the ended makes some modicum of sense?
Like take Rocky IV. Rocky is the underdog. He trains to the absolute limit to defeat an opponent everyone knows is stronger than he is. Ultimately bloodied and barely able to stand he eeks out the win.
Now imagine the same story except Rocky never trains and then finds out he has to fight two Draco's at once and he KOs them both in the first round. To me, in my opinion, that would be unsatisfying.
I'd like it if the story ends with the collapse of Zendikar. The Gatewatch summons all the might of the plane to basically pummel the titans into defeat, then that saps whatever was left holding Zendikar together. Without anything to keep the plane alive it collapses in on itself and the heroes flee. You can even imply Ulamog and Kozilek were only severely injured, and not actually destroyed. Bittersweet end for the heroes, eldritch monstrosities stay credible as a threat and lays open the ground for future stories. For any complaints about power levels, Neowalkers + entire plane should be enough firepower to injure/slow down an eldrazi.
I get the feeling this isn't what we're getting but hey here's hoping.
My complaint isn't that the bad guys should win,it's how it's done,especially facing these type of villains,they need to feel credible.Zendikar wasn't destroyed,none of the planeswalkers died.There were no real ramifications,it just made these Erdrich monstrosities look like chumps.If you look through the storyline threads you'll find better more detailed explanations than mine.
I think the mistake here is that people view the past with nostalgia glasses. Magic's story has always had problems, some more problematic than others. Don't let the negativity get to you too much, because it pops up almost EVERY set. For example:
Tarkir: Time Travel
Theros: Killing Elspeth
RTR: I can't name just one
Innistrad: No story, but mechanically people HATED DFC before they played them
Scars: Alternatively that they won't destroy Mirrodin/that they DID destroy Mirrodin
Zendikar: Bolas involvement in every set
Alara: Ajani beating Bolas is unrealistic
The story will never be as good as I think a lot of people want it to be. But you have to take complaints with a grain of salt, people are going to have hyperbolic reactions to problems with the story regardless. It'll pass.
Unfortunately, there is a pattern in speculative fiction, where a lore's original writers will craft a genuinely Lovecraftian threat, in order to create a sense that there are forces in the universe that cannot be defeated, but must instead be worked around. And then a bunch of less talented writers will come in and completely destroy the threat's raison d'etre, by having the heroes miraculously find a way to beat it.
In the Star Trek: TNG episode Q Who, Roddenberry created the quasi-Lovecraftian Borg, as nemesis to Picard's hubris. It was awesome to hear Picard boast about Starfleet's capabilities, only for Q to show him how little his little Federation really was in the grand scheme of things. When Picard realised he couldn't defeat the Borg, he evolved as a character, as he was forced to eat humble pie and beg Q to help him escape. And the Borg themselves, a force against whom resistance really was futile, made the Star Trek universe suddenly seem far larger, more dangerous, and more compelling. That made me want to watch further.
Contrast that with Voyager's depiction of the Borg, where Brannon Braga (et al.) had Captain Janeway run through the Borg city, *****-slapping them to death before finding and hulk-smashing the "Borg Queen" (which was another stupid idea). Thus, Janeway single-handedly defeated what was by all accounts the gravest threat in the galaxy, invalidating any reason to suppose that she or her crew would ever be in any real danger again. And I stopped watching.
A similar case occurred with Games Workshop. In the late 1980s, Rick Priestley, Andy Chambers, and others created the Chaos Gods. They began as very much Lovecraftian beings, with one Chaos God, Tzeentch, described as sitting at the centre of a nine-dimensional labyrinth, and having daemonic servants who took the form of twisted Birds of Paradise, with plumages of incomprehensible colours. Their merest presence warped human flesh, and their gazes caused insanity.
Early in GW's lore, Tzeentch and his brother Gods would toy with human beings from their realm beyond the universe, playing them like puppets for unknown reasons, but speculated to be merely their own amusement. Meanwhile, they sought to enter our universe by ripping open holes in space, but were prevented by The Emperor of Mankind, a drooling, psychic savant-carcass sitting on a life-support machine. As time went on , the Emperor got weaker and weaker, and the fabric between our universe and the Realm of Chaos (known as the Warp) became more fragile.
I found this universe utterly riveting, and it was in no small part due to the sense of scale, terror and mystery exuded by the Chaos Gods.
In the mid 90s, Games Workshop was floated on the stock exchange, and suddenly had to start catering to shareholders. GW fired Rick Priestley and the other writers who'd created the original lore, and replaced them with new blood. They then decided to take Warhammer 40K into a new direction: maximum profitability.
Over the next decade, the Chaos Gods ceased to be an unfathomable threat from beyond. Instead, they became more and more like Bond Villains, with human plans and human motivations. New GW writers like Matt Ward came along, and created new heroes, one of whom was a guy called Draigo. This guy was so powerful that he personally entered the Warp (akin to the Blind Eternities), destroyed the daemonic armies of the Chaos Gods, and then proceeded to lay the smack-down on the Gods themselves. While beating down one of the Gods, Draigo grabbed the God, held him down, and then LITERALLY wrote a signature on the God's heart.
Needless to say, GW has seen massive depreciation of its stock, and faces doubts over its future.
Yet, neither it nor other companies have learned the lesson. The same pattern, of unfathomably powerful villains being reduced to hero-fodder, can be found in pretty much any mainstream franchise featuring "Lovecraftian" entities, to such an extent that the very word "Lovecraftian" is now misused more often than it is used.
All the signs point to WOTC's writers continuing the trend, which really depresses me. If nothing else, I just hope they understand one simple point: Lovecraftian monsters exist to tell us that there are some problems in life that HAVE NO solutions. The compelling part comes not in "how will our heroes defeat them?", but in "how will our heroes learn to live with the knowledge that they can't defeat them?"
Like I pointed out in another thread, heroes can still be heroes in a Lovecraftian story, but they need to be heroic with subtlety, such as by successfully evacuating some innocents, or sacrificing themselves to save their friends. But if the heroes defeat the Eldrazi -- the most powerful beings in the entire lore -- then there will no longer be sufficient grounds to take any future threat seriously.
Oh, what's that, Jace is up against a grand alliance of Bolas, Liliana, Nixilis and Phyrexia? Bah, he'll beat them, just like he beat the Eldrazi.
This is one of my favorite explanation that someone else used.
I don't get that, killing Elspeth is the highlight of the Theros block and as far as ways to kill the main character go, betrayed by god is pretty far up the list.
I'll cut them some slack for Tarkir, time travel is the challenge mode of fiction writing. If they bring the clans back for the return block, all is forgiven.
I expect a thought out story that makes me question stuff and feel entertaining.
Take for example Star Wars Return of the Jedi. In the end the good guys win, but the plot twist is that the worst bad guy of them all turns to the good side. That was cool. Here the plot twist is that FRIENDSHIP saves the day.
Look at shows like Gravity Falls and Steven Universe. Nobody expects the bad guy to win, but the story is enjoyable. And they are written for kids.
Look at Harry Potter even. We knew he will kill Voldemort. The actual battle in the end is not even a big deal, but the story is enjoyable, because it has mystery and all things have already been established.
Deus Ex Machina is bad writing. It wouldn't be bad writing if the stage was set up for this, but everything we know until now has been invalidated.
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I don't get that, killing Elspeth is the highlight of the Theros block and as far as ways to kill the main character go, betrayed by god is pretty far up the list.
I'll cut them some slack for Tarkir, time travel is the challenge mode of fiction writing. If they bring the clans back for the return block, all is forgiven.
I'm not saying that killing Elspeth was BAD, it was a great story move.
For me, what loxiloxus said bhogal83 said. It all feels... unlikely. Too easy. Diminishing to the older walkers. But come on, we've seen a few tiny bits of text about it all so far. I'm holding onto the good feels of the Jace & Ugin UR from BFZ for hope that they'll deliver it in a more compelling way, but right now, the conclusion feels deeply unsatisfying.
I also hate that, in life, practicality seems to always trump a good story. In this instance, it feels like valuable Hasbro IP might be making it impossible to kill Kiora and destroy Zendikar, because profit. It's like r/l practicality is intruding on my escapist fantasy. And I *really* hate that.
Assuming I could go back as far as RoE, I would have probably not released them fully. Saying something like the seals are broken and these entities are beginning to manifest, their spawn and even their avatars roam the land, but they aren't fully "awaken" yet. All the Eldrazi seen in ROE would be more like "sleep twitches" of the titans, which is why I could explain that several years later Zendikar is still not destroyed by this apparent "multiversal threat x3".
Then, we would return to Zendikar in BFZ, and find out that the Titans have managed to destroy most of Zendikar while STILL sleeping, but we learn that it looks like they could wake up any moment now, the walkers are decided to seal them back. Ob actually awakens Ulamog fully, drains the energy released and escapes. AwakenUlamog easily slaps Gideon and friends around, but Ugin, Nahiri and Chandra show up to help, yet that is still NOT ENOUGH. Nahiri reveals that she had been preparing a weapon since the mending and with everyone's help seals Ulamog back in, at the cost of the weapon and her life. But it is too late to reseal Kozilek and Emrakul, because apparently they have vanished from Zendikar during the battle. Presumably because they woke up and found that Zendikar is largely unappetizing now that it is 95% void of mana and they want a more nutritious breakfast, or because they fear a weapon like the one Nahiri used on Ulamog, or maybe because they expect Ulamog to wake up again and finish the job one day, or because they feel curious about the post-mending nature of the multiverse, or maybe some other reason we can't comprehend.
Emrakul and Kozilek show up in later blocks. Ulamog would be captured, but his brood would continue to rampage around Zendikar for the next hundreds of years, which would mean all future visits.
Of course, this can only be done with 20/20 hindsight and giving story a larger priority than marketing and gameplay, which wouldn't be possible since marketing and gameplay are where Wizards makes their money.
It isn't so much for me an issue of who wins in the end; either the Gatewatch or the Eldrazi. I'd just like the setup to mean something. We have the entirety of the BFZ storyline sething up Ulamog as damaging the plane irrevocably, possibly, though never fully implied to have destroyed it. There was an open door to the plane's survival or not. It felt at a minimum, though, that some major players would die. We cared about Theros' story due to Elspeth "dying" and Xenagos' fate being unclear. They're more or less gone, but their ultimate fates left some sort of resolution to the plot. It was a true Greek tragedy for elspeth and a karmatic or pure sense of hubris for Xenagos. Theros was a set story based on walkers that completed a full story with peril, uncertainty and impact.
Tarkir was a walker story that involved Sarkhan, Ugin and Sorin more as plot movers than central, key figures. Now hear me out. Yes, Sarkhan grew and found a cure for his madness and longing. HOWEVER, Sarkhan moved the plot along more than he devloped. The development was for the world of Tarkir itself told through its legendary cards. Compare Narset legendary versus walker and the loss of red leading her to be more focused on study than combat. Anafenza went from the ruler of a clan focused on ancestry and family by bonds over blood to a murdered practicioner of ancestry. Same method, different outcome. Zurgo went from Sarkhan's biggest rival and a legitimate threat, as well as the somewhat brutal leader of the Mardu to a subservient bell ringer for Kolaghan. Surrak gave up the shamanistic tendencies of the Temur for just feeding Atarka so the Temur aren't eaten themselves, and Sidisi just became a zombie one lower on the SulTai pecking order. Most of us found the lore of the world and legends far more appealing than Sarkhan's story, due to the story having an impact on the legends and world. The impact was real and clear.
Here in Zendikar, and I'm trying to hold onto th hope that Ugin is right and Jace and the rest have just foolishly unleashed the Eldrazi back into the Multiverse to manifest in new forms after burning the 'hands" of the titans off, nothing seems to matter. No one is going to die, likely, given the story and promotions. We were set up for zendikar to likely be devastated, possibly destroyed, but that seems unlikely. The Titans are described as unfathomable behemoths of reality-warping magic that now seem capable of being stopped and destroyed by 4 young wipper-snappers who figured out something out of the blue. Why was it so much buildup and planning to trap Ulamog only for that to fail and now Kozilek to be trapped as well? Isn't Kozilek supposed to be smarter than that based on Kiora's merfolk legend about Kosi and the pearl? No, nevermind, that didn't matter either. And then Ob shows up and beats the crap out of 3 of the 4 Magix Avengers, only to be scared off by Chandra and THEN they get their crap together to solve the problem? Really?
If the titans were simply sealed, or if Kozilek bounced and Zendikar was destroyed, or just simply if SOMEONE other than Lorthos was killed off by a titan, I could forgive it. If Ugin shows up and berates the Oath for their lack of forethought, I might be placated. It bugs me that 3 old walkers with nigh-unlimited powers and thousands of years in Sorin and Ugin's case of insight into how the Multiverse work wouldnt be able to stop or easily seal the titans without years of planning and effort, and Jace just deus ex machina stumbles his way into a solution. None of the buildup meant anything, and that's what bugs me. Unless almost all of Zendikar is killed off before the Oath can finish this, I'm not going to approve of this story. Even then I'd be disappointed. I need the stakes to matter. Magic Creative seemed to finally get that with Mirrodin and Elspeth, and then they go and forget all about that here. Even Colson died in the Avengers. There was a reason to work together and fight the good fight. Quicksilver in Avengers 2. I don't care that the Oath wins. I just wanted the Titans to be the monsters that we were led to believe and there to be some sense of stakes to all of this; that the Eldrazi ravaging a plane mattered in terms of some character we cared about. So far, that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Vorthos-player with way too much time on his hands and a love of thematic decks.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
I think the biggest problem is that people don't give the story the chance it needs. Part of this is because of the current storytelling model being so different than what we've been used to in the past. We're getting snippets of crucial story moments now, during preview weeks, yet we won't know the full story until the last UR goes up a couple of weeks after the set releases. People are judging the plot based on these tiny glimpses and summaries of summaries, and when these plot summaries aren't what they want they get angry.
It'd be like watching the Star Wars trailer and deciding that because those moments in the trailer weren't exactly the ending you wanted you aren't going to see the movie. The trailer isn't supposed to have the plot of the entire movie, just enough key moments to draw you in. We're seeing key story moments out of order and out of context (the Oaths, Fall of the Titans), which is causing people to come to conclusions about the story without having actually experienced it.
It's an adjustment in expectations on the part of the audience that hyper-invested enfranchised people on the internet aren't willing to make because of the nature of being an enfranchised entitled internet person.
With Oath of the Gatewatch specifically, Creative is setting up the Gatewatch to be the multiversal Avengers. For this to happen, there has to be a threat exists large enough that these people (who other than Gideon suck in the teamwork department) decide they need to work together. As Creative set up the Eldrazi as that threat, there are only two outcomes that lead to the Avengers Assemble! moment: Zendikar is destroyed and the titans move on (and it's not likely that WotC would destroy one of their most popular worlds) or the 'walkers manage to drive the Eldrazi off (which is a terrible thing because they saved Zendikar at the expense of the multiverse, but makes the most sense for the narrative). I fully expect Ugin to show up, call out the younger 'walkers for being idiots and freeing the Titans back into the Eternities, and tell them they have to clean up this mess (hence they swear their respective oaths)*.
From a narrative standpoint, the only way to have the Gatewatch formed is for there to still be a looming threat. You can't have the Superfriends if there's not some reason for them to join forces.
*Or, say they actually do destroy Ulamog and Kozilek, utterly and completely. We still don't know what the actual role(s) of the Eldrazi are in the greater ecosystem of the multiverse, so Ugin still shows up to call out the younger 'walkers because now they've damaged some fundamental function of existence, and he tells them they have to clean up this mess (hence they swear their respective oaths). This is the new looming threat.
I feel you Planescrawler. People are upset because we know the outcome, but they all forget we don't know how we get to that outcome.
All I really want is good character driven plot. Nixilis has been killing it in that department. The biggest drag during this block has actually been too much action, and in all the wrong places. Where we should have been getting character development the protagonists split up, and we were left with surral waving and Nissa monologs. Characters are best when they are interacting, hopefully the Gatewatch brings more of that.
I don't think calling us "entitled" is helping your argument, kaburi. All we ask is for a story that is believable without being entirely predictable. Part of the complaining on here is made in the hope that someone from Creative is reading, and willing to relay the "butthurt" on to the writers. Well, I can dream.
Nor is our expression of dislike in any way similar to basing a movie's verdict on the trailer. Trailers are specifically designed to tease without spoiling. MTG cards and art books, however, are designed to accurately summarise a story's entire arc. One rule we always had when analysing scripts was this: if the summary of a story sounds stupid, then there is no need to read further: the story will be too. Obviously, there are exceptions to this rule, but they are exceedingly rare, and confined to unconventional literature and cinema.
And sure, I fully understand the reasoning behind the new story decision, which only makes me dislike it more. But I feel I've already said what I wanted to say about this whole issue, and anything more is just wasting my breath, so I'll simply end my contribution by saying that I genuinely envy the people who can read the latest lore without cringing.
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"For the sake of Hasbro's half-year financial report, we will keep watch."
-- The Gatewatch
I don't see where the current storyline is any different than the past. The Weatherlight Saga, for example, ends with the defeat of Phyrexia and the saving of Dominaria.
They didn't blow up the world the last time we had an apocalypse.
The SET was called Apocalypse and they didn't blow up the world.
There's a difference between taking narrative risks and being dark for the sake of dark. I get the impression people are upset that Zendikar isn't being destroyed because if Zendikar lives we get a happy ending, and happy endings aren't cool. I want Zendikar to not be destroyed. I like Zendikar. I want our heroes to win.
It felt cheesy "With our powers combined we can beat planetary destroyers"
It dimished the threat level of the Eldrazis that were seriouslly hyped as one of the biggest antagonists of the universe and they only had like 3 sets of showcase while Phyrexia and Nicol Bolas had tons of of sets hyping them, showing that they were credible threats.
Hell even these days phyrexia is still a threat, even with the defeat of the big baddie Yagmoth wich he was by far the scariest and msot powerfull entity of the Magic Universe so far.It took lots of sets with the story bulding up with Urza planing tons of years for the upcoming invasion.He needed the help of oldwalkers + his titans to actually fight off Yawgmoth.Hell during the set Urza, a oldwalker, had lots of trouble with Yawgmoth's minions like Gix and Kerrick .Even with Yawgmoth's defeat it took the lives of tons of named characters including the 2 main protagonists Urza and gerrard.It made the victory both grand and bittersweet.Phyrexia's defeat felt grand and epic because it had the buildup for it.
The Eldrazi din't had that chance, well Ulamog and Kozilek atleast.They din't have their momments of glory.Hoenstly Zendikar should have been sacrificied for making the eldrazi look betetr then what we got. Emrakul is our last hope to give the Eldrazi credibility as a top antagonist group
It felt cheesy "With our powers combined we can beat planetary destroyers"
It dimished the threat level of the Eldrazis that were seriouslly hyped as one of the biggest antagonists of the universe and they only had like 3 sets of showcase while Phyrexia and Nicol Bolas had tons of of sets hyping them, showing that they were credible threats.
Hell even these days phyrexia is still a threat, even with the defeat of the big baddie Yagmoth wich he was by far the scariest and msot powerfull entity of the Magic Universe so far.It took lots of sets with the story bulding up with Urza planing tons of years for the upcoming invasion.He needed the help of oldwalkers + his titans to actually fight off Yawgmoth.Hell during the set Urza, a oldwalker, had lots of trouble with Yawgmoth's minions like Gix and Kerrick .Even with Yawgmoth's defeat it took the lives of tons of named characters including the 2 main protagonists Urza and gerrard.It made the victory both grand and bittersweet.Phyrexia's defeat felt grand and epic because it had the buildup for it.
The Eldrazi din't had that chance, well Ulamog and Kozilek atleast.They din't have their momments of glory.Hoenstly Zendikar should have been sacrificied for making the eldrazi look betetr then what we got. Emrakul is our last hope to give the Eldrazi credibility as a top antagonist group
And i fear they won't sacrifice Innistrad either for this end
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
I think the biggest problem is that people don't give the story the chance it needs. Part of this is because of the current storytelling model being so different than what we've been used to in the past. We're getting snippets of crucial story moments now, during preview weeks, yet we won't know the full story until the last UR goes up a couple of weeks after the set releases. People are judging the plot based on these tiny glimpses and summaries of summaries, and when these plot summaries aren't what they want they get angry.
It'd be like watching the Star Wars trailer and deciding that because those moments in the trailer weren't exactly the ending you wanted you aren't going to see the movie. The trailer isn't supposed to have the plot of the entire movie, just enough key moments to draw you in. We're seeing key story moments out of order and out of context (the Oaths, Fall of the Titans), which is causing people to come to conclusions about the story without having actually experienced it.
It's an adjustment in expectations on the part of the audience that hyper-invested enfranchised people on the internet aren't willing to make because of the nature of being an enfranchised entitled internet person.
With Oath of the Gatewatch specifically, Creative is setting up the Gatewatch to be the multiversal Avengers. For this to happen, there has to be a threat exists large enough that these people (who other than Gideon suck in the teamwork department) decide they need to work together. As Creative set up the Eldrazi as that threat, there are only two outcomes that lead to the Avengers Assemble! moment: Zendikar is destroyed and the titans move on (and it's not likely that WotC would destroy one of their most popular worlds) or the 'walkers manage to drive the Eldrazi off (which is a terrible thing because they saved Zendikar at the expense of the multiverse, but makes the most sense for the narrative). I fully expect Ugin to show up, call out the younger 'walkers for being idiots and freeing the Titans back into the Eternities, and tell them they have to clean up this mess (hence they swear their respective oaths)*.
From a narrative standpoint, the only way to have the Gatewatch formed is for there to still be a looming threat. You can't have the Superfriends if there's not some reason for them to join forces.
*Or, say they actually do destroy Ulamog and Kozilek, utterly and completely. We still don't know what the actual role(s) of the Eldrazi are in the greater ecosystem of the multiverse, so Ugin still shows up to call out the younger 'walkers because now they've damaged some fundamental function of existence, and he tells them they have to clean up this mess (hence they swear their respective oaths). This is the new looming threat.
I really hate to compare this to "that scenario", but the way the structure works now is pretty much like how the leaks for Oath of the Gatewatch had on the community. Just like Kozilek's early leak spoiled the C mechanic and it ended up with the community arguing over what the symbol could possibly stand for, releasing storyline details like "Ulamog was sealed once again" and "Ulamog and Kozilek were destroyed" creates a similar scenario, it doesn't establish what really happened and as a result causes confusion in the community.
It also bugs me that they explicitly called the effects out when the leaks happened for the cards (confusion for the community is bad), yet don't seem to admit the same effect when this happens to the storyline. I know the cards are the core of the franchise (being the actual merchandise) and have priority, but this really feels like they don't even put any effort in preventing similar confusion in the Vorthos Community at all, making it feel like "Anything not the cards needs no immediate clearance" at all instead.
I really think they ought to end the major UR Storylines at the point of a set's release and not have it halfway through if they want to continue this model and not raise the confusion everytime they do this.
Well personally I find the method of the Eldrazi's defeat plausible. They are bound using a Hedron network, and the power of Zendikar is fueled into one person to blast them with fire. Presuming Chandra uses Ghostfire, I would find it very plausible. Of course I am reserving judgement until I see the actual story. If they spend time building up to it and preparing, and do it right; I would be willing to accept it.
I really hate to compare this to "that scenario", but the way the structure works now is pretty much like how the leaks for Oath of the Gatewatch had on the community. Just like Kozilek's early leak spoiled the C mechanic and it ended up with the community arguing over what the symbol could possibly stand for, releasing storyline details like "Ulamog was sealed once again" and "Ulamog and Kozilek were destroyed" creates a similar scenario, it doesn't establish what really happened and as a result causes confusion in the community.
It also bugs me that they explicitly called the effects out when the leaks happened for the cards (confusion for the community is bad), yet don't seem to admit the same effect when this happens to the storyline. I know the cards are the core of the franchise (being the actual merchandise) and have priority, but this really feels like they don't even put any effort in preventing similar confusion in the Vorthos Community at all, making it feel like "Anything not the cards needs no immediate clearance" at all instead.
I really think they ought to end the major UR Storylines at the point of a set's release and not have it halfway through if they want to continue this model and not raise the confusion everytime they do this.
Now this is a sizable issue. Errrr... at least for us it is. The thing is we are such a small group relative to this who only see cards that we are indeed secondary. That's why they included the fat pack spoilers. But you're right. They need to figure out a way to mitigate this. I don't think wrapping up a story by the time the cards start previewing is a reasonable thing at this point. It would take them skipping a set worth of story to start telling the next one. I don't think any of us want that. Someone from creative designated as a community manager of sorts would be nice. Someone who has a big picture idea of what's going on and can reliably (looking at you Doug) communicate with the readers and assaugw at least some of their feaes as the cards start to preview would be nice.
I don't think that's the case. Wizards talked about borrowing elements of Greek tragedy/lore into the storyline. It didn't have to be solely from one character. We've the hubris of Thassa and Kiora for example. We've betrayal, duty, scandal, greed etc in Theros. It was a good story, not so much for a game point of view.
The trick is being similar to Greek literature but not exactly.
Thank you guys for unintentionally making my point for me.
Magic's story is subjective, and some people's mileage varies more than others. When people say 'this is the death of magic', I don't think they realize people have been saying that since the Weatherlight saga. I just don't want anyone to get discouraged, because people will always dislike something about the story.
Whether people's expectations for the story of a card game are too high? Probably, but not unreasonably so - they're welcome to expect a consistently good story. But what is 'good' can vary, and right now we're in the growing pains phase of a major shift in creative direction, so I think people should have tempered their expectations much more than they have.
But against my better judgement, I really have to ask this: to everyone out there screaming "ruined FOREVER" at every individual development in the current lore, convinced that the villains losing robs a narrative of credibility: what did you want? Since the Mending, there have been about as many blocks where the villains win as not - do you really want them to always triumph? Are you pulling for stories wherein the protagonists are portrayed as consistently stronger than their opponents, so their wins are credible? Do you have some examples of works which adhere to these baffling standards?
If I come off as frustrated, it's because I am, but the question is an honest one. I truly wish to understand this complaint which seems so universal. To be clear, if you're frustrated with the writing quality of some URs - in particular, Nissa's alternating cycles of gaining cosmic power, losing cosmic power, and crying about it - I totally understand that. It's the idea that the shape of this arc in broad terms means the end of the universe which I am confused by.
Like take Rocky IV. Rocky is the underdog. He trains to the absolute limit to defeat an opponent everyone knows is stronger than he is. Ultimately bloodied and barely able to stand he eeks out the win.
Now imagine the same story except Rocky never trains and then finds out he has to fight two Draco's at once and he KOs them both in the first round. To me, in my opinion, that would be unsatisfying.
I'd like it if the story ends with the collapse of Zendikar. The Gatewatch summons all the might of the plane to basically pummel the titans into defeat, then that saps whatever was left holding Zendikar together. Without anything to keep the plane alive it collapses in on itself and the heroes flee. You can even imply Ulamog and Kozilek were only severely injured, and not actually destroyed. Bittersweet end for the heroes, eldritch monstrosities stay credible as a threat and lays open the ground for future stories. For any complaints about power levels, Neowalkers + entire plane should be enough firepower to injure/slow down an eldrazi.
I get the feeling this isn't what we're getting but hey here's hoping.
Especially in the oath storyline forum.
Tarkir: Time Travel
Theros: Killing Elspeth
RTR: I can't name just one
Innistrad: No story, but mechanically people HATED DFC before they played them
Scars: Alternatively that they won't destroy Mirrodin/that they DID destroy Mirrodin
Zendikar: Bolas involvement in every set
Alara: Ajani beating Bolas is unrealistic
The story will never be as good as I think a lot of people want it to be. But you have to take complaints with a grain of salt, people are going to have hyperbolic reactions to problems with the story regardless. It'll pass.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
This is one of my favorite explanation that someone else used.
I'll cut them some slack for Tarkir, time travel is the challenge mode of fiction writing. If they bring the clans back for the return block, all is forgiven.
Take for example Star Wars Return of the Jedi. In the end the good guys win, but the plot twist is that the worst bad guy of them all turns to the good side. That was cool. Here the plot twist is that FRIENDSHIP saves the day.
Look at shows like Gravity Falls and Steven Universe. Nobody expects the bad guy to win, but the story is enjoyable. And they are written for kids.
Look at Harry Potter even. We knew he will kill Voldemort. The actual battle in the end is not even a big deal, but the story is enjoyable, because it has mystery and all things have already been established.
Deus Ex Machina is bad writing. It wouldn't be bad writing if the stage was set up for this, but everything we know until now has been invalidated.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
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but there was griping.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I also hate that, in life, practicality seems to always trump a good story. In this instance, it feels like valuable Hasbro IP might be making it impossible to kill Kiora and destroy Zendikar, because profit. It's like r/l practicality is intruding on my escapist fantasy. And I *really* hate that.
Then, we would return to Zendikar in BFZ, and find out that the Titans have managed to destroy most of Zendikar while STILL sleeping, but we learn that it looks like they could wake up any moment now, the walkers are decided to seal them back. Ob actually awakens Ulamog fully, drains the energy released and escapes. AwakenUlamog easily slaps Gideon and friends around, but Ugin, Nahiri and Chandra show up to help, yet that is still NOT ENOUGH. Nahiri reveals that she had been preparing a weapon since the mending and with everyone's help seals Ulamog back in, at the cost of the weapon and her life. But it is too late to reseal Kozilek and Emrakul, because apparently they have vanished from Zendikar during the battle. Presumably because they woke up and found that Zendikar is largely unappetizing now that it is 95% void of mana and they want a more nutritious breakfast, or because they fear a weapon like the one Nahiri used on Ulamog, or maybe because they expect Ulamog to wake up again and finish the job one day, or because they feel curious about the post-mending nature of the multiverse, or maybe some other reason we can't comprehend.
Emrakul and Kozilek show up in later blocks. Ulamog would be captured, but his brood would continue to rampage around Zendikar for the next hundreds of years, which would mean all future visits.
Of course, this can only be done with 20/20 hindsight and giving story a larger priority than marketing and gameplay, which wouldn't be possible since marketing and gameplay are where Wizards makes their money.
Tarkir was a walker story that involved Sarkhan, Ugin and Sorin more as plot movers than central, key figures. Now hear me out. Yes, Sarkhan grew and found a cure for his madness and longing. HOWEVER, Sarkhan moved the plot along more than he devloped. The development was for the world of Tarkir itself told through its legendary cards. Compare Narset legendary versus walker and the loss of red leading her to be more focused on study than combat. Anafenza went from the ruler of a clan focused on ancestry and family by bonds over blood to a murdered practicioner of ancestry. Same method, different outcome. Zurgo went from Sarkhan's biggest rival and a legitimate threat, as well as the somewhat brutal leader of the Mardu to a subservient bell ringer for Kolaghan. Surrak gave up the shamanistic tendencies of the Temur for just feeding Atarka so the Temur aren't eaten themselves, and Sidisi just became a zombie one lower on the SulTai pecking order. Most of us found the lore of the world and legends far more appealing than Sarkhan's story, due to the story having an impact on the legends and world. The impact was real and clear.
Here in Zendikar, and I'm trying to hold onto th hope that Ugin is right and Jace and the rest have just foolishly unleashed the Eldrazi back into the Multiverse to manifest in new forms after burning the 'hands" of the titans off, nothing seems to matter. No one is going to die, likely, given the story and promotions. We were set up for zendikar to likely be devastated, possibly destroyed, but that seems unlikely. The Titans are described as unfathomable behemoths of reality-warping magic that now seem capable of being stopped and destroyed by 4 young wipper-snappers who figured out something out of the blue. Why was it so much buildup and planning to trap Ulamog only for that to fail and now Kozilek to be trapped as well? Isn't Kozilek supposed to be smarter than that based on Kiora's merfolk legend about Kosi and the pearl? No, nevermind, that didn't matter either. And then Ob shows up and beats the crap out of 3 of the 4 Magix Avengers, only to be scared off by Chandra and THEN they get their crap together to solve the problem? Really?
If the titans were simply sealed, or if Kozilek bounced and Zendikar was destroyed, or just simply if SOMEONE other than Lorthos was killed off by a titan, I could forgive it. If Ugin shows up and berates the Oath for their lack of forethought, I might be placated. It bugs me that 3 old walkers with nigh-unlimited powers and thousands of years in Sorin and Ugin's case of insight into how the Multiverse work wouldnt be able to stop or easily seal the titans without years of planning and effort, and Jace just deus ex machina stumbles his way into a solution. None of the buildup meant anything, and that's what bugs me. Unless almost all of Zendikar is killed off before the Oath can finish this, I'm not going to approve of this story. Even then I'd be disappointed. I need the stakes to matter. Magic Creative seemed to finally get that with Mirrodin and Elspeth, and then they go and forget all about that here. Even Colson died in the Avengers. There was a reason to work together and fight the good fight. Quicksilver in Avengers 2. I don't care that the Oath wins. I just wanted the Titans to be the monsters that we were led to believe and there to be some sense of stakes to all of this; that the Eldrazi ravaging a plane mattered in terms of some character we cared about. So far, that doesn't seem to be the case.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
60 Card Kitchen Table Decks
WUB Avacyn, Spirit Ferrier
RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
It'd be like watching the Star Wars trailer and deciding that because those moments in the trailer weren't exactly the ending you wanted you aren't going to see the movie. The trailer isn't supposed to have the plot of the entire movie, just enough key moments to draw you in. We're seeing key story moments out of order and out of context (the Oaths, Fall of the Titans), which is causing people to come to conclusions about the story without having actually experienced it.
It's an adjustment in expectations on the part of the audience that hyper-invested enfranchised people on the internet aren't willing to make because of the nature of being an enfranchised entitled internet person.
With Oath of the Gatewatch specifically, Creative is setting up the Gatewatch to be the multiversal Avengers. For this to happen, there has to be a threat exists large enough that these people (who other than Gideon suck in the teamwork department) decide they need to work together. As Creative set up the Eldrazi as that threat, there are only two outcomes that lead to the Avengers Assemble! moment: Zendikar is destroyed and the titans move on (and it's not likely that WotC would destroy one of their most popular worlds) or the 'walkers manage to drive the Eldrazi off (which is a terrible thing because they saved Zendikar at the expense of the multiverse, but makes the most sense for the narrative). I fully expect Ugin to show up, call out the younger 'walkers for being idiots and freeing the Titans back into the Eternities, and tell them they have to clean up this mess (hence they swear their respective oaths)*.
From a narrative standpoint, the only way to have the Gatewatch formed is for there to still be a looming threat. You can't have the Superfriends if there's not some reason for them to join forces.
*Or, say they actually do destroy Ulamog and Kozilek, utterly and completely. We still don't know what the actual role(s) of the Eldrazi are in the greater ecosystem of the multiverse, so Ugin still shows up to call out the younger 'walkers because now they've damaged some fundamental function of existence, and he tells them they have to clean up this mess (hence they swear their respective oaths). This is the new looming threat.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
All I really want is good character driven plot. Nixilis has been killing it in that department. The biggest drag during this block has actually been too much action, and in all the wrong places. Where we should have been getting character development the protagonists split up, and we were left with surral waving and Nissa monologs. Characters are best when they are interacting, hopefully the Gatewatch brings more of that.
Nor is our expression of dislike in any way similar to basing a movie's verdict on the trailer. Trailers are specifically designed to tease without spoiling. MTG cards and art books, however, are designed to accurately summarise a story's entire arc. One rule we always had when analysing scripts was this: if the summary of a story sounds stupid, then there is no need to read further: the story will be too. Obviously, there are exceptions to this rule, but they are exceedingly rare, and confined to unconventional literature and cinema.
And sure, I fully understand the reasoning behind the new story decision, which only makes me dislike it more. But I feel I've already said what I wanted to say about this whole issue, and anything more is just wasting my breath, so I'll simply end my contribution by saying that I genuinely envy the people who can read the latest lore without cringing.
-- The Gatewatch
They didn't blow up the world the last time we had an apocalypse.
The SET was called Apocalypse and they didn't blow up the world.
There's a difference between taking narrative risks and being dark for the sake of dark. I get the impression people are upset that Zendikar isn't being destroyed because if Zendikar lives we get a happy ending, and happy endings aren't cool. I want Zendikar to not be destroyed. I like Zendikar. I want our heroes to win.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
It felt cheesy "With our powers combined we can beat planetary destroyers"
It dimished the threat level of the Eldrazis that were seriouslly hyped as one of the biggest antagonists of the universe and they only had like 3 sets of showcase while Phyrexia and Nicol Bolas had tons of of sets hyping them, showing that they were credible threats.
Hell even these days phyrexia is still a threat, even with the defeat of the big baddie Yagmoth wich he was by far the scariest and msot powerfull entity of the Magic Universe so far.It took lots of sets with the story bulding up with Urza planing tons of years for the upcoming invasion.He needed the help of oldwalkers + his titans to actually fight off Yawgmoth.Hell during the set Urza, a oldwalker, had lots of trouble with Yawgmoth's minions like Gix and Kerrick .Even with Yawgmoth's defeat it took the lives of tons of named characters including the 2 main protagonists Urza and gerrard.It made the victory both grand and bittersweet.Phyrexia's defeat felt grand and epic because it had the buildup for it.
The Eldrazi din't had that chance, well Ulamog and Kozilek atleast.They din't have their momments of glory.Hoenstly Zendikar should have been sacrificied for making the eldrazi look betetr then what we got. Emrakul is our last hope to give the Eldrazi credibility as a top antagonist group
And i fear they won't sacrifice Innistrad either for this end
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
I really hate to compare this to "that scenario", but the way the structure works now is pretty much like how the leaks for Oath of the Gatewatch had on the community. Just like Kozilek's early leak spoiled the C mechanic and it ended up with the community arguing over what the symbol could possibly stand for, releasing storyline details like "Ulamog was sealed once again" and "Ulamog and Kozilek were destroyed" creates a similar scenario, it doesn't establish what really happened and as a result causes confusion in the community.
It also bugs me that they explicitly called the effects out when the leaks happened for the cards (confusion for the community is bad), yet don't seem to admit the same effect when this happens to the storyline. I know the cards are the core of the franchise (being the actual merchandise) and have priority, but this really feels like they don't even put any effort in preventing similar confusion in the Vorthos Community at all, making it feel like "Anything not the cards needs no immediate clearance" at all instead.
I really think they ought to end the major UR Storylines at the point of a set's release and not have it halfway through if they want to continue this model and not raise the confusion everytime they do this.
Now this is a sizable issue. Errrr... at least for us it is. The thing is we are such a small group relative to this who only see cards that we are indeed secondary. That's why they included the fat pack spoilers. But you're right. They need to figure out a way to mitigate this. I don't think wrapping up a story by the time the cards start previewing is a reasonable thing at this point. It would take them skipping a set worth of story to start telling the next one. I don't think any of us want that. Someone from creative designated as a community manager of sorts would be nice. Someone who has a big picture idea of what's going on and can reliably (looking at you Doug) communicate with the readers and assaugw at least some of their feaes as the cards start to preview would be nice.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
The trick is being similar to Greek literature but not exactly.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Magic's story is subjective, and some people's mileage varies more than others. When people say 'this is the death of magic', I don't think they realize people have been saying that since the Weatherlight saga. I just don't want anyone to get discouraged, because people will always dislike something about the story.
Whether people's expectations for the story of a card game are too high? Probably, but not unreasonably so - they're welcome to expect a consistently good story. But what is 'good' can vary, and right now we're in the growing pains phase of a major shift in creative direction, so I think people should have tempered their expectations much more than they have.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath