After the Obzedat embarrassed Teysa in this most recent UR I got to wondering just how powerful the various guildleaders are,in general and in relation to each other. This is not taking into account the paruns of guilds where the parun is no longer an active leader. Factoring in physical power, intelligence, and magical ability I would say they rank out somewhat like this:
1. Obzedat: Clearly very powerful, unkillable since they are already dead, and apparently exempt from the binding laws of the guild-pact.
1. Niv-Mizzet: A hyper-intelligent dragon, likely the smartest being on Ravnica
1. Rakdos: Regardless of whether his followers are correct in believing he can destroy Ravnica if he so chooses, he killed both a nephilim and Kraj and only needed a nap to get better. He is clearly extremely powerful.
2. Trostani: The real power here is Mat'Selesnya, but Trostani is sort of a conduit of that so I feel she has a lot of weight to throw around if need be.
3. Isperia: Gigantic sphinx, so physically she has that. I don't feel like we know much about Isperia tbh but I'm assuming she's a powerful lawmage in addition to her physical abilities.
4. Lazav: Although physically unimpressive compared to the guild-leaders preceding him, his shapeshifting, cunning, and knowledge of other guilds puts him higher than he might otherwise fall.
5. Aurelia: Other than zeal and the support of the legion, I don't think there's really anything separating Aurelia from any other firemane angel in the Boros, this still makes her a force to be reckoned with, but not I feel on par with those listed above.
6. Jarad: Hard to kill as a lich, he's also a powerful necromancer who was a skilled warrior/bounty hunter in life. Maybe not enough to take on any of those above but stronger than the two remaining.
7. Borborygmos: Giant cyclops, big, strong, not much else. Certainly a powerful and skilled warrior but that's not always enough.
8. Zeganna: Very intelligent, and probably a gifted biomancer, but on her own I feel she's far and away the weakest of the bunch.
What do you guys think? Does this seem like a fair assessment of the guildleaders? This isn't so much a "who would win in a fight" as a "on their own merits and infrastructure who is objectively most powerful"
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I like you rank, even though I don't know much about Ravnica characters since I didn't read the first three books. I've read about Lazav though, and I believe just considering his magical power and his intelligence alone he should be higher in the rank. I feel like Niv-Mizzet and Rakdos are above him, but he would be in second place.
I think it is hard to rank the Obzedat, because first it is not actually one entity, but multiple beings. Second it was stated that their members have no magical power, and definitely they have no physical power, so given your criteria for ranking the leaders I would put the Obzedat in third place (at least). The rest seems like a fair assessment, maybe I would swap Jarad and Aurelia, leaving it like this:
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Lazav's power comes from the weakness of his enemies. In fact, there would be no reason for Dimir to exist if there was no other Guild out there. They literally love to be hated.
About his abilities now, he is perhaps the most dangerous of all of them but certainly not the most powerful in a vaccum. This what i love about his design, there is no reason to ever put him side by side with anyone, Guild Leader or not. He will have you fight with ghosts just for the LoLs and then keep up his plans with another face.
Niv and Rakdos battled and won the Nephilims, are paruns and they are a frikkin smartass dragon and a frikkin partyguy demon. Its like you already have the duo of a theatrical perfomance! Those 2 should be the strongest.
Also, Zeganna is much like Lazav. Her intelligence and plans should not be understimated and puts her in a different category from the other 8. For now, i do aggree that her Guild is the weakest because of the events of the old block, but progress is the name from Simic.
That is definitely a hard thing to rank, especially for the more "magical" guild leaders. Some of them barely had any showtime too.
I remember Trostani defeating Rakdos in the DGM novel, but not sure about the details since it went kinda fast (like everything in that novel), so I don't remember how much other guild members were involved.
I'm glad people generally like the ranking. I agree that Lazav and the Obzedat are kind of difficult to gage. The way I'm looking at it is in terms of personal ability and powers they have access too. For example, Trostani summoning elementals or the Obzedat activating whatever of their enchantments create the merciless eviction are ok because those are abilities that those characters have access to on their own. Aurelia getting legionaries to help her or Zeganna releasing some giant mutant would not count because they are enlisting the help of other guild members. If either of them could spontaneously summon/create soldiers/mutants that would be different. That said, we really haven't seen what Zeganna is capable of, and she may very well belong at least above Borborygmos.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Probs Niv-Mizzles. The Obzedat is looking fairly powerful right now, considering they can overrule Jace, the most powerful being on Ravnica (A Plane with probably billions and billions and potentially trillions of beings).
Lazav's power comes from the weakness of his enemies. In fact, there would be no reason for Dimir to exist if there was no other Guild out there. They literally love to be hated.
About his abilities now, he is perhaps the most dangerous of all of them but certainly not the most powerful in a vaccum. This what i love about his design, there is no reason to ever put him side by side with anyone, Guild Leader or not. He will have you fight with ghosts just for the LoLs and then keep up his plans with another face.
Niv and Rakdos battled and won the Nephilims, are paruns and they are a frikkin smartass dragon and a frikkin partyguy demon. Its like you already have the duo of a theatrical perfomance! Those 2 should be the strongest.
Also, Zeganna is much like Lazav. Her intelligence and plans should not be understimated and puts her in a different category from the other 8. For now, i do aggree that her Guild is the weakest because of the events of the old block, but progress is the name from Simic.
The others are fine.
Pretty much this. I'd put Rakdos higher than niv in terms of raw strength and physical combat. Rakdos fought the Nephillim and Kraj at the same time and killed them. Niv fought 2-3 of the Nephillim, killed one and then turned tail and run, citing ''this is no longer interesting''. Niv is probably the smartest and possibly the most magically adept being in Ravnica, but his big weakness is his volatile personality.
Haha yeah that's true, but I think if we included the organizations they are leading too it would just become "Which Ravnican Guilds are more powerful than others" and I don't think that is necessarily the same as the power ranking of the respective leaders. For example, while Rakdos is more powerful than Aurelia, I think the Boros guild as a whole is more powerful and influential than the Rakdos guild.
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
"This week on Ten's Company: One of Lazav's alter egos has to make a deposition in an Azorius courtroom. The presiding judge? Lavav himself. *laughtrack* Tune in at 8/9c to see how he gets out of this one."
"This week on Ten's Company: One of Lazav's alter egos has to make a deposition in an Azorius courtroom. The presiding judge? Lavav himself. *laughtrack* Tune in at 8/9c to see how he gets out of this one."
probably billions and billions and potentially trillions of beings
I mean if you count birds and stuff sure but surely the population of people isn't so large. I though Ravnica was a bit smaller than Earth.
Even if Ravnica is considerably smaller than Earth, its population of thinking beings would have to be tremendous - a trillion is probably a conservative estimate. Numerous sources indicate that a vast majority of the plane is completely covered by a teeming cityscape, one which rises higher in places than the height of terrestrial skyscrapers and extends deep beneath the surface. Even if one factors in the Gruul wastes and thinly populated areas like the furnace zones depicted on Ravnica Mountains, the plane would have to have a population far, far great than Earth's.
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"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt
probably billions and billions and potentially trillions of beings
I mean if you count birds and stuff sure but surely the population of people isn't so large. I though Ravnica was a bit smaller than Earth.
Even if Ravnica is considerably smaller than Earth, its population of thinking beings would have to be tremendous - a trillion is probably a conservative estimate. Numerous sources indicate that a vast majority of the plane is completely covered by a teeming cityscape, one which rises higher in places than the height of terrestrial skyscrapers and extends deep beneath the surface. Even if one factors in the Gruul wastes and thinly populated areas like the furnace zones depicted on Ravnica Mountains, the plane would have to have a population far, far great than Earth's.
</blockquote>
Hmmm...
Supposedly Ravnica is "half the size of Earth". Generously assuming that means half the surface area it covers about 100 million square miles. Population density probably isn't outrageously high since given that it doesn't look like Mumbai or Bejing, the streets are pretty open. So maybe 10000 per square mile since the Gruul, Selesyna, and Azorius all maintain large open areas like parks and plazas.
That does work out to a trillion people. So I guess I'm wrong. The population is enormous.
He's a high-ranking member, so he probably doesn't need to show up much to meetings and such. When I read this bit in The Secretist Pt. 2 I was pretty impressed. A lot of franchises have shapeshifters, but never explore the fact that those shapeshifters could literally be anyone anywhere. When I saw that Magic was exploring that I knew the writing for mtg was deffo good.
Hmmmm. The Timmy in me wants to say Rakdos, but I feel like he's mostly brawn. He's smart, but not calculating, like Niv-Mizzet. He's smart, but more lackluster in a one-on-one brawl. Though, does Niv breathe fire? 'Cause that'd be an asset in a fight. Lazav is also smart, but would never engage in open combat. Trostani is also smart (something they all seem to have in common, 'cept Borby), but also wouldn't engage in one-on-one combat. Borborgmos is clearly very physically powerful, but he's not terribly eloquent, or house-trained. The Obzedat hold immense magical power, and, as a whole, are very intelligent, but they too wouldn't engage in open combat. Zegana seems like she's really smart, but physically more frail. Jarad is probably the least powerful in terms of smarts and sheer force, as while he may be undead, he hasn't shown to have many other tricks aside from possessing himself. Aurelia could definitely hold her own in a one-on-one fight, as she's used to fighting all the time, and she's got charisma too. A bit hot-headed, though. Isperia is huge, but she probably wouldn't engage in confrontation, unless it was needed.
If there was a guild-leader royal rumble, my money'd be on Rakdos.
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Niv-Mizzet is supposed to be one of the oldest being on Ravnica, right? He's around 25K years old if I remember correctly.
Add that to being incredibly smart, probably a very capable mage, and a dragon on top of all that, making him physically powerful aswell. In fact, I remember an Uncharted Realms where Jace went into Niv-Mizzet's mind, and found himself lost in an endless ocean of thoughts so vast and powerful he almost lost himself. I think he takes top. Otherwise, I agree with your list.
Going off the OP's categories of: physical power, intelligence, magical prowess, I'd say Zegana can't be too far at the bottom. After all she comes in with an extra +1 of power above the strongest thing out. Not to mention it takes a lot to raise the Simic from ruin as she did.
Hmmmm. The Timmy in me wants to say Rakdos, but I feel like he's mostly brawn. He's smart, but not calculating, like Niv-Mizzet. He's smart, but more lackluster in a one-on-one brawl. Though, does Niv breathe fire? 'Cause that'd be an asset in a fight. Lazav is also smart, but would never engage in open combat. Trostani is also smart (something they all seem to have in common, 'cept Borby), but also wouldn't engage in one-on-one combat. Borborgmos is clearly very physically powerful, but he's not terribly eloquent, or house-trained. The Obzedat hold immense magical power, and, as a whole, are very intelligent, but they too wouldn't engage in open combat. Zegana seems like she's really smart, but physically more frail. Jarad is probably the least powerful in terms of smarts and sheer force, as while he may be undead, he hasn't shown to have many other tricks aside from possessing himself. Aurelia could definitely hold her own in a one-on-one fight, as she's used to fighting all the time, and she's got charisma too. A bit hot-headed, though. Isperia is huge, but she probably wouldn't engage in confrontation, unless it was needed.
If there was a guild-leader royal rumble, my money'd be on Rakdos.
I wonder what she ate between Ravnica - RTR to get so big. I just imagine the Azorius holding meetings and her peeking into the building from outside like a giant cat.
1. Rakdos: Regardless of whether his followers are correct in believing he can destroy Ravnica if he so chooses, he killed both a nephilim and Kraj and only needed a nap to get better. He is clearly extremely powerful.
He didn't actually kill Kraj, though - not directly. Kraj absorbed him, rendering hik unconscious. It did die afterwards, though. As for the list, I don't see any real issues.
1. Obzedat: Clearly very powerful, unkillable since they are already dead, and apparently exempt from the binding laws of the guild-pact.
1. Niv-Mizzet: A hyper-intelligent dragon, likely the smartest being on Ravnica
1. Rakdos: Regardless of whether his followers are correct in believing he can destroy Ravnica if he so chooses, he killed both a nephilim and Kraj and only needed a nap to get better. He is clearly extremely powerful.
2. Trostani: The real power here is Mat'Selesnya, but Trostani is sort of a conduit of that so I feel she has a lot of weight to throw around if need be.
3. Isperia: Gigantic sphinx, so physically she has that. I don't feel like we know much about Isperia tbh but I'm assuming she's a powerful lawmage in addition to her physical abilities.
4. Lazav: Although physically unimpressive compared to the guild-leaders preceding him, his shapeshifting, cunning, and knowledge of other guilds puts him higher than he might otherwise fall.
5. Aurelia: Other than zeal and the support of the legion, I don't think there's really anything separating Aurelia from any other firemane angel in the Boros, this still makes her a force to be reckoned with, but not I feel on par with those listed above.
6. Jarad: Hard to kill as a lich, he's also a powerful necromancer who was a skilled warrior/bounty hunter in life. Maybe not enough to take on any of those above but stronger than the two remaining.
7. Borborygmos: Giant cyclops, big, strong, not much else. Certainly a powerful and skilled warrior but that's not always enough.
8. Zeganna: Very intelligent, and probably a gifted biomancer, but on her own I feel she's far and away the weakest of the bunch.
What do you guys think? Does this seem like a fair assessment of the guildleaders? This isn't so much a "who would win in a fight" as a "on their own merits and infrastructure who is objectively most powerful"
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
I think it is hard to rank the Obzedat, because first it is not actually one entity, but multiple beings. Second it was stated that their members have no magical power, and definitely they have no physical power, so given your criteria for ranking the leaders I would put the Obzedat in third place (at least). The rest seems like a fair assessment, maybe I would swap Jarad and Aurelia, leaving it like this:
1. Niv-Mizzet/Rakdos
2. Lazav
3. Obzedat
4. Trostani
5. Isperia
6. Jarad
7. Aurelia
8. Borborygmos
9. Zeganna
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About his abilities now, he is perhaps the most dangerous of all of them but certainly not the most powerful in a vaccum. This what i love about his design, there is no reason to ever put him side by side with anyone, Guild Leader or not. He will have you fight with ghosts just for the LoLs and then keep up his plans with another face.
Niv and Rakdos battled and won the Nephilims, are paruns and they are a frikkin smartass dragon and a frikkin partyguy demon. Its like you already have the duo of a theatrical perfomance! Those 2 should be the strongest.
Also, Zeganna is much like Lazav. Her intelligence and plans should not be understimated and puts her in a different category from the other 8. For now, i do aggree that her Guild is the weakest because of the events of the old block, but progress is the name from Simic.
The others are fine.
I remember Trostani defeating Rakdos in the DGM novel, but not sure about the details since it went kinda fast (like everything in that novel), so I don't remember how much other guild members were involved.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
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Pretty much this. I'd put Rakdos higher than niv in terms of raw strength and physical combat. Rakdos fought the Nephillim and Kraj at the same time and killed them. Niv fought 2-3 of the Nephillim, killed one and then turned tail and run, citing ''this is no longer interesting''. Niv is probably the smartest and possibly the most magically adept being in Ravnica, but his big weakness is his volatile personality.
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USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
Seems like an odd way to judge a group of people defined by leading organizations.
I'd switch Rakdos with Trostani in your ranking either way. Rakdos may be the most powerful in a one-on-one fight but that's all he has going for him.
I mean if you count birds and stuff sure but surely the population of people isn't so large. I though Ravnica was a bit smaller than Earth.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
With that in mind, I don't think there's a single guild leader that holds as much power as him.
Your mods are terrified of me.
I'm sure it makes a great sitcom.
"This week on Ten's Company: One of Lazav's alter egos has to make a deposition in an Azorius courtroom. The presiding judge? Lavav himself. *laughtrack* Tune in at 8/9c to see how he gets out of this one."
I'd watch that hehe.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
Even if Ravnica is considerably smaller than Earth, its population of thinking beings would have to be tremendous - a trillion is probably a conservative estimate. Numerous sources indicate that a vast majority of the plane is completely covered by a teeming cityscape, one which rises higher in places than the height of terrestrial skyscrapers and extends deep beneath the surface. Even if one factors in the Gruul wastes and thinly populated areas like the furnace zones depicted on Ravnica Mountains, the plane would have to have a population far, far great than Earth's.
Hmmm...
Supposedly Ravnica is "half the size of Earth". Generously assuming that means half the surface area it covers about 100 million square miles. Population density probably isn't outrageously high since given that it doesn't look like Mumbai or Bejing, the streets are pretty open. So maybe 10000 per square mile since the Gruul, Selesyna, and Azorius all maintain large open areas like parks and plazas.
That does work out to a trillion people. So I guess I'm wrong. The population is enormous.
He's a high-ranking member, so he probably doesn't need to show up much to meetings and such. When I read this bit in The Secretist Pt. 2 I was pretty impressed. A lot of franchises have shapeshifters, but never explore the fact that those shapeshifters could literally be anyone anywhere. When I saw that Magic was exploring that I knew the writing for mtg was deffo good.
Your mods are terrified of me.
If there was a guild-leader royal rumble, my money'd be on Rakdos.
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
Add that to being incredibly smart, probably a very capable mage, and a dragon on top of all that, making him physically powerful aswell. In fact, I remember an Uncharted Realms where Jace went into Niv-Mizzet's mind, and found himself lost in an endless ocean of thoughts so vast and powerful he almost lost himself. I think he takes top. Otherwise, I agree with your list.
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I wonder what she ate between Ravnica - RTR to get so big. I just imagine the Azorius holding meetings and her peeking into the building from outside like a giant cat.
He didn't actually kill Kraj, though - not directly. Kraj absorbed him, rendering hik unconscious. It did die afterwards, though. As for the list, I don't see any real issues.
Shards of awful never
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"