They already said they killed the W/B Angel. Don't think that one's coming back.
She was killed offscreen. The only character who has related the event did not actually witness the event. She could have been imprisoned in the Helvault. Even if she was killed, it's possible that, like demons, her essence reformed into a new being. It wouldn't be the most egregious resurrection Wizards has done, not by a long shot.
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"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Thought concerning the B/W angel. The Chain Veil is the vessel of the Onakke's resurrection and Liliana has a geistmage doing something with/to it. I think that may lead to the resurrection of the angel.
So heres my theory about Sigarda:
She will join the order of saint taft.
but the real reason we got that story was to talk about the white/black angel, who we will see in the next set. when sorin kills avacyn next chapter, Innistrad will need a new guardian, but not of the avacynian style of protection, but instead in our black/white angel's style of joining up, unifying, which will also make sense of our Arlinn Kord intro. we will leave innistrad with the dark and light unified.
They already said they killed the W/B Angel. Don't think that one's coming back.
Law of conservation of detail: if something of that magnitude is mentioned, it has to featured in.
Remember that Innistrad's mana based beings generate new ones if they die. Maybe, in the same way Griselbrand's death led to Ormendahl's life, so will this fourth angel produce a new one.
so I just re-read the passage about the BW angel, gonna put it here for reference and so everyone can read it with ease:
"And then Avacyn had turned on their sister. It was true their wayward sister engaged in unconventional actions and made unwelcome allies. Sometimes she would consort with vampires and witches, even demons and devils. We must know our enemies if we are to defeat our enemies, she would say. She was often distrusted and disliked by the other angels, even sometimes by her three sisters. But the four of them had a deep bond, and though their sister charted a very different path, still she was their sister.
Until the sister had formed an alliance with a demon lord, an act condemned by them all. Avacyn had declared her a heretic, an accomplice to the very monsters Avacyn and all the angels were sworn to defeat. The three other sisters had agreed with Avacyn, but did not join Avacyn in her crusade against their dark sister. Avacyn had not needed their help. A thousand years ago, Avacyn single-handedly destroyed their sister and her entire small flight, and they had made the very mention of her name forbidden."
Some notes of my own:
-"an alliance with a demon lord" Im gonna say that this could totally be sorin. If WotC had said vampire lord, it would have been a total giveaway, ruining the whole mystery.
-"A thousand years ago, Avacyn single-handedly destroyed their sister..." One thousand years ago, we get the flashbacks from Sorin. This means that within the same year, Avacyn is created and "kills" the BW angel. (No eyewitness accounts)
-From earlier in the chapter, not in the quoted material, the angels talk about how they dont see eachother often.
so heres my (revised) theory:
1)BW angel (henceforth to be abbreviated to BWA) forms alliance with sorin. From what we know about their personalities, this would be a perfect match.
2)Sorin transforms BWA into avacyn.
3)The newly created Avacyn goes back the the other angels, declaring the BWA a heretic in need of destruction, knowing the other angels would be uncomfortable to go along with it. (Possibly Sorin's calculation)
4) Avacyn has now explained the disappearance of the BWA. its sort of an Anakin to Darth vader scenario.
*Nahiri's episode may have been the trip Avacyn went on claiming that she was destroying BWA*
I surely can't read through 85 pages of arguments, but if it really was Emrakul and Nahiri is summoning her? Wouldn't she have the skill and ability to lock away her scions from reaching innostrad like a stasis field. She did trap them the first time.
I surely can't read through 85 pages of arguments, but if it really was Emrakul and Nahiri is summoning her?
We're not 100% sure what Nahiri is summoning and we're only about 50% why she's even doing this plot in the first place.
Evidence for Emrakul:
1. The tendril lattice in art
2. The clue tokens have a message in them that is a call back to Ugin warning Jace that there were 3 Eldrazi, not just Ulamog.
3. Markov Manor has a gravity problem, and the residents of the plane start mutating right after Emrakul is retconned to have that power.
4. A new control deck featuring Nahiri, the Harbinger ultimateing into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn wins the last major Modern tournament before Eternal Masters previews and Announcements starts making Shadows over Innistrad (and maybe even the entire Modern Format) old news and irrelevant. Coincidence? I think so not.
so I just re-read the passage about the BW angel, gonna put it here for reference and so everyone can read it with ease:
"And then Avacyn had turned on their sister. It was true their wayward sister engaged in unconventional actions and made unwelcome allies. Sometimes she would consort with vampires and witches, even demons and devils. We must know our enemies if we are to defeat our enemies, she would say. She was often distrusted and disliked by the other angels, even sometimes by her three sisters. But the four of them had a deep bond, and though their sister charted a very different path, still she was their sister.
Until the sister had formed an alliance with a demon lord, an act condemned by them all. Avacyn had declared her a heretic, an accomplice to the very monsters Avacyn and all the angels were sworn to defeat. The three other sisters had agreed with Avacyn, but did not join Avacyn in her crusade against their dark sister. Avacyn had not needed their help. A thousand years ago, Avacyn single-handedly destroyed their sister and her entire small flight, and they had made the very mention of her name forbidden."
Some notes of my own:
-"an alliance with a demon lord" Im gonna say that this could totally be sorin. If WotC had said vampire lord, it would have been a total giveaway, ruining the whole mystery.
-"A thousand years ago, Avacyn single-handedly destroyed their sister..." One thousand years ago, we get the flashbacks from Sorin. This means that within the same year, Avacyn is created and "kills" the BW angel. (No eyewitness accounts)
-From earlier in the chapter, not in the quoted material, the angels talk about how they dont see eachother often.
so heres my (revised) theory:
1)BW angel (henceforth to be abbreviated to BWA) forms alliance with sorin. From what we know about their personalities, this would be a perfect match.
2)Sorin transforms BWA into avacyn.
3)The newly created Avacyn goes back the the other angels, declaring the BWA a heretic in need of destruction, knowing the other angels would be uncomfortable to go along with it. (Possibly Sorin's calculation)
4) Avacyn has now explained the disappearance of the BWA. its sort of an Anakin to Darth vader scenario.
*Nahiri's episode may have been the trip Avacyn went on claiming that she was destroying BWA*
That seems unlikely. The passage implies Avacyn was created before the BW Sister made her demon deal. Likely the Demon Lord in question was Ormendahl or Griselbrand, not Sorin. The paragraphs before the line indicate all four sister angels still met and conferred with each other when Avacyn first appeared.
That seems unlikely. The passage implies Avacyn was created before the BW Sister made her demon deal. Likely the Demon Lord in question was Ormendahl or Griselbrand, not Sorin. The paragraphs before the line indicate all four sister angels still met and conferred with each other when Avacyn first appeared.
While the passage does imply this, it doesnt state it outright. The creation of Avacyn and her destroying the BWA happen in the same year, and the sisters dont get together much.
What motive would BWA have to make an alliance with Griselbrand? With Sorin, they would be reaching out from opposite sides to create an ultimate protection solution for the humans. (Helvault and avacyn)
Nowhere does it say that the 4 angels are ever together again after the introduction of Avacyn. Remember we have no eyewitness accounts for a seemingly major event. WotC wouldnt give us all this detail about BWA if she wasnt significant... She has to have some role.
Based on the passage quoted there is an obvious, though undetermined, amount of time that takes place between the sisters meeting Avacyn and them condemning the BWA. It seems you really want the BWA to matter which is causing your to say insane things like
WotC wouldnt give us all this detail about BWA if she wasnt significant... She has to have some role.
We know this is not true, unimportant characters get entire stories dedicated to them far too often. Seemingly important characters are never heard from again with out any real resolution to their story. I can understand the desire for the BWA because BW is my favorite color combination and angels are my favorite creature type. Few people want the BWA more than I do, but I won't get my hopes up for a character Wizards has said is dead showing up when so many characters that are alive(and occasionally plot relevant) don't show up.
Based on the passage quoted there is an obvious, though undetermined, amount of time that takes place between the sisters meeting Avacyn and them condemning the BWA. It seems you really want the BWA to matter which is causing your to say insane things like
WotC wouldnt give us all this detail about BWA if she wasnt significant... She has to have some role.
We know this is not true, unimportant characters get entire stories dedicated to them far too often. Seemingly important characters are never heard from again with out any real resolution to their story. I can understand the desire for the BWA because BW is my favorite color combination and angels are my favorite creature type. Few people want the BWA more than I do, but I won't get my hopes up for a character Wizards has said is dead showing up when so many characters that are alive(and occasionally plot relevant) don't show up.
Correct, you can't apply Chekhov's Gun to Magic's Story. They leave the gun right where it is ALL THE TIME. It's called worldbuilding.
That said, the last time they introduced someone fully as being dead, they weren't before the end of the story.
It feels like it could go either way, honestly, in regards to the black white angel.
There is a storytelling maxim that's important here: They're not dead until you see the body. That's typically been Wizard's approach, and why on-screen deaths won't be 'retconned' but things like Ugin are okay.
That said, the last time they introduced someone fully as being dead, they weren't before the end of the story.
It feels like it could go either way, honestly, in regards to the black white angel.
There is a storytelling maxim that's important here: They're not dead until you see the body. That's typically been Wizard's approach, and why on-screen deaths won't be 'retconned' but things like Ugin are okay.
Oh, I'm well aware of the maxim. I don't even mind it. What they did with Ugin is fine. But Avacyn didn't leave a body and we're pretty sure she's dead? So again, I just feel like it could go either way in regards to the angel.
Oh, I'm well aware of the maxim. I don't even mind it. What they did with Ugin is fine. But Avacyn didn't leave a body and we're pretty sure she's dead? So again, I just feel like it could go either way in regards to the angel.
If Sorin could somehow get the power again, I'm sure he could re-create her.
Oh, I'm well aware of the maxim. I don't even mind it. What they did with Ugin is fine. But Avacyn didn't leave a body and we're pretty sure she's dead? So again, I just feel like it could go either way in regards to the angel.
If Sorin could somehow get the power again, I'm sure he could re-create her.
Well, Nahiri IS conveniently focusing huge amounts of Innistrad's mana at a central point... All it would take is for someone to come along and hijack that...
That said, the last time they introduced someone fully as being dead, they weren't before the end of the story.
It feels like it could go either way, honestly, in regards to the black white angel.
There is a storytelling maxim that's important here: They're not dead until you see the body. That's typically been Wizard's approach, and why on-screen deaths won't be 'retconned' but things like Ugin are okay.
Oh, I'm well aware of the maxim. I don't even mind it. What they did with Ugin is fine. But Avacyn didn't leave a body and we're pretty sure she's dead? So again, I just feel like it could go either way in regards to the angel.
When you say "it could go either way", this is not a 50/50 issue. Its more like 99.9% Avacyn is destroyed against 0.1% that she's not, somehow.
edit: and Ugin doesn't count. He really did die, time-travel and altering the past is kind of cheating, and they aren't going to use that very often.
That said, the last time they introduced someone fully as being dead, they weren't before the end of the story.
It feels like it could go either way, honestly, in regards to the black white angel.
There is a storytelling maxim that's important here: They're not dead until you see the body. That's typically been Wizard's approach, and why on-screen deaths won't be 'retconned' but things like Ugin are okay.
Oh, I'm well aware of the maxim. I don't even mind it. What they did with Ugin is fine. But Avacyn didn't leave a body and we're pretty sure she's dead? So again, I just feel like it could go either way in regards to the angel.
When you say "it could go either way", this is not a 50/50 issue. Its more like 99.9% Avacyn is destroyed against 0.1% that she's not, somehow.
edit: and Ugin doesn't count. He really did die, time-travel and altering the past is kind of cheating, and they aren't going to use that very often.
Sorry, when I said angel I was specifically referring to the Black-White Angel whose name we don't know. Not Avacyn. I see now that my phrasing was very poor there.
She was killed offscreen. The only character who has related the event did not actually witness the event. She could have been imprisoned in the Helvault. Even if she was killed, it's possible that, like demons, her essence reformed into a new being. It wouldn't be the most egregious resurrection Wizards has done, not by a long shot.
"You say 'learn from history,' but that does not mean 'learn the same bull***** the people in history learned alongside phrenology and alchemy.'" - The Blinking Spirit
Law of conservation of detail: if something of that magnitude is mentioned, it has to featured in.
Remember that Innistrad's mana based beings generate new ones if they die. Maybe, in the same way Griselbrand's death led to Ormendahl's life, so will this fourth angel produce a new one.
"And then Avacyn had turned on their sister. It was true their wayward sister engaged in unconventional actions and made unwelcome allies. Sometimes she would consort with vampires and witches, even demons and devils. We must know our enemies if we are to defeat our enemies, she would say. She was often distrusted and disliked by the other angels, even sometimes by her three sisters. But the four of them had a deep bond, and though their sister charted a very different path, still she was their sister.
Until the sister had formed an alliance with a demon lord, an act condemned by them all. Avacyn had declared her a heretic, an accomplice to the very monsters Avacyn and all the angels were sworn to defeat. The three other sisters had agreed with Avacyn, but did not join Avacyn in her crusade against their dark sister. Avacyn had not needed their help. A thousand years ago, Avacyn single-handedly destroyed their sister and her entire small flight, and they had made the very mention of her name forbidden."
Some notes of my own:
-"an alliance with a demon lord" Im gonna say that this could totally be sorin. If WotC had said vampire lord, it would have been a total giveaway, ruining the whole mystery.
-"A thousand years ago, Avacyn single-handedly destroyed their sister..." One thousand years ago, we get the flashbacks from Sorin. This means that within the same year, Avacyn is created and "kills" the BW angel. (No eyewitness accounts)
-From earlier in the chapter, not in the quoted material, the angels talk about how they dont see eachother often.
so heres my (revised) theory:
1)BW angel (henceforth to be abbreviated to BWA) forms alliance with sorin. From what we know about their personalities, this would be a perfect match.
2)Sorin transforms BWA into avacyn.
3)The newly created Avacyn goes back the the other angels, declaring the BWA a heretic in need of destruction, knowing the other angels would be uncomfortable to go along with it. (Possibly Sorin's calculation)
4) Avacyn has now explained the disappearance of the BWA. its sort of an Anakin to Darth vader scenario.
*Nahiri's episode may have been the trip Avacyn went on claiming that she was destroying BWA*
Evidence for Emrakul:
1. The tendril lattice in art
2. The clue tokens have a message in them that is a call back to Ugin warning Jace that there were 3 Eldrazi, not just Ulamog.
3. Markov Manor has a gravity problem, and the residents of the plane start mutating right after Emrakul is retconned to have that power.
4. A new control deck featuring Nahiri, the Harbinger ultimateing into Emrakul, the Aeons Torn wins the last major Modern tournament before Eternal Masters previews and Announcements starts making Shadows over Innistrad (and maybe even the entire Modern Format) old news and irrelevant. Coincidence? I think
sonot.candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Could it be that Kozilek's influence is causing the changes in innistrad?
What happens to the titans when their planar forms get destroyed?
Is it possible that nahiri, trying to summon emrakul, accidentally snagged a kozilek?
Are Emrakul kozilek and ulamog 3 limbs of one being perhaps?
Thoughts?
That seems unlikely. The passage implies Avacyn was created before the BW Sister made her demon deal. Likely the Demon Lord in question was Ormendahl or Griselbrand, not Sorin. The paragraphs before the line indicate all four sister angels still met and conferred with each other when Avacyn first appeared.
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While the passage does imply this, it doesnt state it outright. The creation of Avacyn and her destroying the BWA happen in the same year, and the sisters dont get together much.
What motive would BWA have to make an alliance with Griselbrand? With Sorin, they would be reaching out from opposite sides to create an ultimate protection solution for the humans. (Helvault and avacyn)
Nowhere does it say that the 4 angels are ever together again after the introduction of Avacyn. Remember we have no eyewitness accounts for a seemingly major event. WotC wouldnt give us all this detail about BWA if she wasnt significant... She has to have some role.
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It feels like it could go either way, honestly, in regards to the black white angel.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
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Oh, I'm well aware of the maxim. I don't even mind it. What they did with Ugin is fine. But Avacyn didn't leave a body and we're pretty sure she's dead? So again, I just feel like it could go either way in regards to the angel.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Well, Nahiri IS conveniently focusing huge amounts of Innistrad's mana at a central point... All it would take is for someone to come along and hijack that...
When you say "it could go either way", this is not a 50/50 issue. Its more like 99.9% Avacyn is destroyed against 0.1% that she's not, somehow.
edit: and Ugin doesn't count. He really did die, time-travel and altering the past is kind of cheating, and they aren't going to use that very often.
Sorry, when I said angel I was specifically referring to the Black-White Angel whose name we don't know. Not Avacyn. I see now that my phrasing was very poor there.
This thread is now locked.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath