As someone who finds Jace the most interesting character of the Origins 5, save Liliana, I really don't mind. I actually wouldn't mind if SOI is a Jace/Liliana team-up. If written well, both of these characters can be great. But I guess you could say that about anyone. I'm all Gideon'd out and Nissa is the most annoying character in recent memory. And Chandra is pretty much an arrested immature adolescent with a hot temper (though, again, Laura Resnick made Chandra very enjoyable.)
Why are there so many theories about Avacyn's being Nahiri? They don't really have any similarities other than they are both women and pale. If Sorin were to turn Nahiri into something wouldn't a vampire be more logical? Sorin makes people into vampires fairly regularly and it would at least help explain how/why Nahiri could still be alive.
I don't get why people keep saying that Jace is being used too much. He was an active player in Zendikar (and it's return) and Ravnica. That's it. What other times has he showed up? Origins and M15? I'll admit that the stories he's in may be a bit too close, but then again, Elspeth's stories had about the same length of time in between.
Gideon and Liliana both needed a planeswalker to help them. Gideon was going to take any help he could get, and Jace happened to be the first one he found. Liliana needed (wanted) help with her demon problem, and seeing as how Jace is really the only walker that would even consider helping her, she went to Jace.
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Jace was making fun of Ugin. He was cocky, and tried proving his point, but at no point did I see him saying that Ugin's arguments were "dumb and flawed".
Not to mention that we don't even know if Jace is really the main character of SOI yet.
It's fine if you don't like Jace, but don't say that he's worse than he is, and certainly don't say that the lore as a whole is completely ruined because of it.
Don't worry, that's why I'm here. I'll help you "get it".
Jace has been featured non-stop in lore since Return to Ravnica in 2012. When Ravnica ended, he just so happened to intrude into Garruk's M15 story. When that ended, he ends up a central figure in Magic Origins. Now he's in BFZ and when that ends he'll be in Innistrad.
Not to mention that he's the face of pretty much every non-card Magic product out there and has received 5 novels, whereas most other walkers are lucky to be tangential characters in 1.
Jace absolutely shows up more than every other character, and the narrative will bend over backwards to find ways to include him ("Hey, this is a PUZZLE *nudge nudge wink wink* of Leylines. Better go find someone that's good at PUZZLES *nudge nudge wink wink*.").
Jace was a "central character" in Origins because out of all the blue walkers we have Tamiyo is the only other one that we don't know the origins of. And no matter what the vorthos community wants, Tamiyo is not going to be a major character in the overall plot of MTG.
Yep, Jace is definitely being shoehorned into a plotline that he was already a part of and had a legitimate reason to be involved in. Definitely.
I will give you the novels. I may even give you SOI, once we learn more about Jace's role in the upcoming story. But I still feel like people exaggerate how much Jace is being shoved down their throats.
Like I said, it's fine if you don't like Jace. I get it. But saying that the ENTIRE STORYLINE AND LORE of MTG are ruined because of him? No.
Jace is certainly involved as ONE of the main characters for the block, but not the only one. And he's wearing something besides his standard pajamas-and-cloak getup for the first time since he left Vryn, apparently. I think it's a good look for him.
I do have to admit, he does look pretty good. Though part of that is because I already really liked Innistrad aesthetics. The Gothic fashion is a good one. Though I'm also in the minority here that doesn't hate Jace.
Maybe they're actually weaving these stories for reals!
Jace is gonna be sent by Ugin to find Sorin after Oath to Gatewatch!
Maybe it's just SOI that Jace is gonna be in and Tamiyo is gonna be on the second set!
*puts any form of anticipation for this set to hibernation*
Puts on +2 rose goggles of naivete: "Maybe they're saving Tamiyo because they've decided to give Kamigawa another chance somewhere down the road!"
Seriously though, of both Planeswalkers introduced in Avacyn Restored, how is it Tibalt became popular and Tamiyo didn't? Crappy Devil kid is more beloved than cute Moonfolk girl? I can't understand.
Seriously though, of both Planeswalkers introduced in Avacyn Restored, how is it Tibalt became popular and Tamiyo didn't? Crappy Devil kid is more beloved than cute Moonfolk girl? I can't understand.
2 reasons.
1. Regardless of what Creative does or tries, most players will never be invested in story. Those players saw a TWO MANA PLANESWALKER that got a DUEL DECK. Tibalt naturally got more attention for these two qualities.
2. For the people that DO care about lore, Tibalt went up against Sorin and is a man-turned-devil, whereas Tamiyo's entire character is this line: "She likes Innistrad's moon."
Seriously though, of both Planeswalkers introduced in Avacyn Restored, how is it Tibalt became popular and Tamiyo didn't? Crappy Devil kid is more beloved than cute Moonfolk girl? I can't understand.
People will point out his awesome backstory or his apparently awesome fashion sense. I suspect he's just way too popular with the ladies. Every time I show his card to one of my female friends they can't stop fawning over him for some reason
I don't think this block will contain Eldrazi, but I'd be perfectly fine with it if it does. Cosmic horror can potentially work a lot better on Innistrad than Zendikar.
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Seriously though, of both Planeswalkers introduced in Avacyn Restored, how is it Tibalt became popular and Tamiyo didn't? Crappy Devil kid is more beloved than cute Moonfolk girl? I can't understand.
Apparently people were really confused by Tamiyo. They couldn't wrap their heads around Planeswalkers being on other planes.
I don't think this block will contain Eldrazi, but I'd be perfectly fine with it if it does. Cosmic horror can potentially work a lot better on Innistrad than Zendikar.
The Eldrazi have not been Cosmic Horror; they've just been weird aliens you beat up, like the James Cameron movie. We're told they are, but the writing doesn't actually deliver on it. They wouldn't fit in Innistrad because Innistrad is hardly a war plane. If Creative, in the time since BFZ, has figured out the underlying themes of Lovecraft's work and now understand that the monsters aren't the threat, but what they represent is, then we could have an interesting Cosmic-Gothic Horror mashup.
You should read The Shadow Over Innsmouth to see how it's really done.
On Zendikar, they aren't written as cosmic horror. Zendikar is/was adventure world: horrific revelations about our place in the universe don't fit there. On a more fitting setting like Innistrad, though, where evil lurks around every corner, I think they can be written as cosmic horror. I disagree with the idea that there is only one absolute way to play a trope.
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On Zendikar, they aren't written as cosmic horror. Zendikar is/was adventure world: horrific revelations about the nature of human-like beings don't fit there. On a more fitting setting like Innistrad, though, where evil lurks around every corner, I think they can be written as cosmic horror. I disagree with the idea that there is only one absolute way to play a trope.
I think his point is more that on Zendikar they aren't written as horror at all. They're just physically dangerous. Actual cosmic horror doesn't translate well to what Wizards wants to do.
It would be easy to place Lovecraftian cosmic horror on Zendikar, after all. Imagine a story about a Sea Gate librarian. He survives the Eldrazi attack only to find that many people have gone mad. While researching in ancient books he learns of ways to avoid the madness. The methods are horrible but they give him reprieve from the torturous psychic presence of Ulamog. Eventually he is attacked by the others, now all driven to insanity, and seeks out Gideon knowing that only the secrets he has found can save Zendikar. Switch perspective to Gideon. Tarzi brings in a body killed by the scouts. Its the librarian. His left forearm is split in two laterally so that the bones are separated. The flesh of his forehead has been carved away to expose the skull. They open the book he had with him. The first pages are in an indecipherable tongue but near the end it is one word over and over again in an increasingly shaky hand. ULAMOG. ULAMOG. ULAMOG.
I'm not sure about Eldrazi coming over... But is there a possibility that Avacyn gets tainted by phyrexian oil? May be pretty far fetched though.
Another theory is Tibalt's meddling causes Avacyn to undergo extremes of bloodlust.
The third theory is perhaps Garruk has encountered Avacyn and injured her, spreading some curse. This one seems the most apt.
On Jace: I would think it's fairly obvious that once Jace has saved Zendikar, he will attend to the troubles of Garruk, because he knows a fully corrupted Garruk will go on a serial walker-hunt across the multiverse. And there may be almost no walker to stop him. Plus, Garruk wears a Magneto helmet. While in Innistrad Jace might even get to fulfil his date with lili, who's presumably there to settle unfinished business?
Seriously though, of both Planeswalkers introduced in Avacyn Restored, how is it Tibalt became popular and Tamiyo didn't? Crappy Devil kid is more beloved than cute Moonfolk girl? I can't understand.
2. For the people that DO care about lore, Tibalt went up against Sorin and is a man-turned-devil, whereas Tamiyo's entire character is this line: "She likes Innistrad's moon."
Except nope, he did not. There is zero backstory for these Duel Decks. Even in the Duel Decks themselves. All that is there is "Tibalt likes to harm and torture Innistradi people and Sorin protects the Innistradi. There is a possibility of a conflict." The end. They did not even friggin' MET, for all we know.
Nevertheless, Tibalt's ascension and backstory is more interesting than Tamiyo's. I'll leave you that.
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In that case, someone better get on editing their wiki pages to remove the bit about them fighting.
I'd say whether someone wrote a story about it or not is pretty irrelevant when you have heavily promoted Brad Rigney art with the two of them getting ready to fight. The other duel decks are just two images of the walkers.
I'd say whether someone wrote a story about it or not is pretty irrelevant when you have heavily promoted Brad Rigney art with the two of them getting ready to fight. The other duel decks are just two images of the walkers.
Really?
Aside from the most blatant example above, Jace vs. Chandra and to some extent Elspeth vs. Tezzeret begs to differ.
Liliana killed Griselbrand and that could have caused Innistrad to go out of balance.
Maybe, maybe not. Demons killed on Innistrad reform as new demons.
I feel like it'll have more to do with the power vacuum left over in the church, especially as the Luminarch's Journal, which admitted Avacyn and the church are lies, was discovered.
I also think it'll have a lot to do with the moon, which had a lot of hints as to it being important in the original block but never became a part of the plot (probably because the actual plot was so small).
So thematically Eldrazi are connected to this block in that Jace is looking for Sorin, and Sorin is looking for Nahiri. Honestly I don't know why there is hesitation for Eldrazi on Innistrad, it is a better setting for them. I can even see the desire for the pairing between the two being one of the tipping points for the two block paradigm.
Now for it to work the Eldrazi have to be a subtle threat, not the all out battle we are seeing on Zendikar. Kozilek is ideal for this task. In fact something referred to as the butcher of truth seems like a slam dunk for dual faced cards. Cast side being the distortion, flip side being the truth.
What if Avacyn isn't being corrupted it's all a trick? Look outside the box. The sky is not falling, far from it.
Set symbol looks like Kozilek's crown with a halo over it...
Jay13x bringing up the moon got me thinking too, the strange power of the moon on Innistrad could have something to do with lithomancy no?
So many threads could be woven quite nicely if executed properly, crossing my fingers!
Jay13x bringing up the moon got me thinking too, the strange power of the moon on Innistrad could have something to do with lithomancy no?
So many threads could be woven quite nicely if executed properly, crossing my fingers!
Preferably not, but they might retcon. We had this same discussion in kind-of reverse a while ago, a lot of us theorized that Karn was the lithomancer, but Karn was a silver golem, not a stone golem, so it ultimately didn't make sense.
Here's the thing: The Moon and the Helvault on Innistrad (also: beaches, daggers, many other weapons) are made from magical Silver. Nahiri is a Lithomancer, and while she may have some control over metals the way it's used on Innistrad just doesn't seem her style. Plus, the Helvault looks like it's just a straight up chunk of the moon - no magical shaping whatsover.
Didn't know the moon was made of silver. There is precedent enough though that Nahiri's lithomancy includes metals. Look at all the sweet swords her and her mystics make.
Didn't know the moon was made of silver. There is precedent enough though that Nahiri's lithomancy includes metals. Look at all the sweet swords her and her mystics make.
Yeah, the moon is silver, as is most of the sand on the beaches. I'll be doing a 'World of Innistrad' Archive trap as soon as I finish the Liliana/Garruk one (which admitted is 95% of Innistrad's plot).
I think the potential for the moon is interesting enough that we don't need Eldrazi to make it interesting.
If the Helvault held ALL THE DEMON, what could the moon be holding?
Bolas and Ajani did fight though. The art may be misrepresenting how the fight occurred, but it did happen. Elspeth didn't jump and stab XenaGOD in the chest as Deicide showed, but threw the spear into his chest.
Jace and Chandra did fight at Keral keep over the scroll she stole from that plane whose name escapes me at the moment. This fight is also in those old comics if you care to look it up.
Koth and Venser had a bit of a scuffle.
The point is, vorthosians see the art of two characters fighting and then that pretty much sticks it into their head that those characters fought. The rest of the duel decks are bs though, but thankfully do not have art of the featured walkers fighting to confuse people.
I think Innistrad is a fine place for cosmic horror and I'm not particularly annoyed that the Eldrazi don't fit perfectly into the ideas of Cthulhu or whatever. The Theran God's were based on the Greek Pantheon but that does not imply they must follow the rules as set by Lovecraftian mythos. Major themes such as the God's interloping and having children with mortals was missing from Theros so it stands that not all of the Cthulhu tropes will be hit either.
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Didn't know the moon was made of silver. There is precedent enough though that Nahiri's lithomancy includes metals. Look at all the sweet swords her and her mystics make.
Yeah, the moon is silver, as is most of the sand on the beaches. I'll be doing a 'World of Innistrad' Archive trap as soon as I finish the Liliana/Garruk one (which admitted is 95% of Innistrad's plot).
I think the potential for the moon is interesting enough that we don't need Eldrazi to make it interesting.
If the Helvault held ALL THE DEMON, what could the moon be holding?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a theory? The Innistrad Planeswalkers Guide said that someone theorized this, but it hasn't been confirmed, no?
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Jace was a "central character" in Origins because out of all the blue walkers we have Tamiyo is the only other one that we don't know the origins of. And no matter what the vorthos community wants, Tamiyo is not going to be a major character in the overall plot of MTG.
Yep, Jace is definitely being shoehorned into a plotline that he was already a part of and had a legitimate reason to be involved in. Definitely.
I will give you the novels. I may even give you SOI, once we learn more about Jace's role in the upcoming story. But I still feel like people exaggerate how much Jace is being shoved down their throats.
Like I said, it's fine if you don't like Jace. I get it. But saying that the ENTIRE STORYLINE AND LORE of MTG are ruined because of him? No.
I do have to admit, he does look pretty good. Though part of that is because I already really liked Innistrad aesthetics. The Gothic fashion is a good one. Though I'm also in the minority here that doesn't hate Jace.
Puts on +2 rose goggles of naivete: "Maybe they're saving Tamiyo because they've decided to give Kamigawa another chance somewhere down the road!"
Seriously though, of both Planeswalkers introduced in Avacyn Restored, how is it Tibalt became popular and Tamiyo didn't? Crappy Devil kid is more beloved than cute Moonfolk girl? I can't understand.
2 reasons.
1. Regardless of what Creative does or tries, most players will never be invested in story. Those players saw a TWO MANA PLANESWALKER that got a DUEL DECK. Tibalt naturally got more attention for these two qualities.
2. For the people that DO care about lore, Tibalt went up against Sorin and is a man-turned-devil, whereas Tamiyo's entire character is this line: "She likes Innistrad's moon."
Your mods are terrified of me.
People will point out his awesome backstory or his apparently awesome fashion sense. I suspect he's just way too popular with the ladies. Every time I show his card to one of my female friends they can't stop fawning over him for some reason
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USticher GeralfU
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UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
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Apparently people were really confused by Tamiyo. They couldn't wrap their heads around Planeswalkers being on other planes.
The Eldrazi have not been Cosmic Horror; they've just been weird aliens you beat up, like the James Cameron movie. We're told they are, but the writing doesn't actually deliver on it. They wouldn't fit in Innistrad because Innistrad is hardly a war plane. If Creative, in the time since BFZ, has figured out the underlying themes of Lovecraft's work and now understand that the monsters aren't the threat, but what they represent is, then we could have an interesting Cosmic-Gothic Horror mashup.
You should read The Shadow Over Innsmouth to see how it's really done.
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I think his point is more that on Zendikar they aren't written as horror at all. They're just physically dangerous. Actual cosmic horror doesn't translate well to what Wizards wants to do.
It would be easy to place Lovecraftian cosmic horror on Zendikar, after all. Imagine a story about a Sea Gate librarian. He survives the Eldrazi attack only to find that many people have gone mad. While researching in ancient books he learns of ways to avoid the madness. The methods are horrible but they give him reprieve from the torturous psychic presence of Ulamog. Eventually he is attacked by the others, now all driven to insanity, and seeks out Gideon knowing that only the secrets he has found can save Zendikar. Switch perspective to Gideon. Tarzi brings in a body killed by the scouts. Its the librarian. His left forearm is split in two laterally so that the bones are separated. The flesh of his forehead has been carved away to expose the skull. They open the book he had with him. The first pages are in an indecipherable tongue but near the end it is one word over and over again in an increasingly shaky hand. ULAMOG. ULAMOG. ULAMOG.
Another theory is Tibalt's meddling causes Avacyn to undergo extremes of bloodlust.
The third theory is perhaps Garruk has encountered Avacyn and injured her, spreading some curse. This one seems the most apt.
On Jace: I would think it's fairly obvious that once Jace has saved Zendikar, he will attend to the troubles of Garruk, because he knows a fully corrupted Garruk will go on a serial walker-hunt across the multiverse. And there may be almost no walker to stop him. Plus, Garruk wears a Magneto helmet. While in Innistrad Jace might even get to fulfil his date with lili, who's presumably there to settle unfinished business?
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Except nope, he did not. There is zero backstory for these Duel Decks. Even in the Duel Decks themselves. All that is there is "Tibalt likes to harm and torture Innistradi people and Sorin protects the Innistradi. There is a possibility of a conflict." The end. They did not even friggin' MET, for all we know.
Nevertheless, Tibalt's ascension and backstory is more interesting than Tamiyo's. I'll leave you that.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I'd say whether someone wrote a story about it or not is pretty irrelevant when you have heavily promoted Brad Rigney art with the two of them getting ready to fight. The other duel decks are just two images of the walkers.
Your mods are terrified of me.
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Really?
Aside from the most blatant example above, Jace vs. Chandra and to some extent Elspeth vs. Tezzeret begs to differ.
I am gonna dig it up. But it says about as much as I summarized.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I feel like it'll have more to do with the power vacuum left over in the church, especially as the Luminarch's Journal, which admitted Avacyn and the church are lies, was discovered.
I also think it'll have a lot to do with the moon, which had a lot of hints as to it being important in the original block but never became a part of the plot (probably because the actual plot was so small).
That sounds about right. There really isn't much on Tibalt at all anywhere.
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Jay13x bringing up the moon got me thinking too, the strange power of the moon on Innistrad could have something to do with lithomancy no?
So many threads could be woven quite nicely if executed properly, crossing my fingers!
Here's the thing: The Moon and the Helvault on Innistrad (also: beaches, daggers, many other weapons) are made from magical Silver. Nahiri is a Lithomancer, and while she may have some control over metals the way it's used on Innistrad just doesn't seem her style. Plus, the Helvault looks like it's just a straight up chunk of the moon - no magical shaping whatsover.
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I think the potential for the moon is interesting enough that we don't need Eldrazi to make it interesting.
If the Helvault held ALL THE DEMON, what could the moon be holding?
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Jace and Chandra did fight at Keral keep over the scroll she stole from that plane whose name escapes me at the moment. This fight is also in those old comics if you care to look it up.
Koth and Venser had a bit of a scuffle.
The point is, vorthosians see the art of two characters fighting and then that pretty much sticks it into their head that those characters fought. The rest of the duel decks are bs though, but thankfully do not have art of the featured walkers fighting to confuse people.
I mean, did Elspeth even MEET Tezz?
Your mods are terrified of me.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that just a theory? The Innistrad Planeswalkers Guide said that someone theorized this, but it hasn't been confirmed, no?