The old web comics were quite excellent, and show that Doug and the creative team know how to tell a story.
I think BFZ, at least so far, is having problems because of the amount of restructuring they've had to do to meet the two blocks a year schedule.
More than that, Origins/BFZ are the beginning of a new Creative paradigm, and what we're seeing right now are the growing pains of trying to make their vision for the future work with what came before. They're not letting themselves be hamstrung by the past, but they're having to pick and choose what parts of the past they want to keep going forward. I think the goal is noble: going forward, they're telling a more cohesive story. Unfortunately, they're getting too aggressive in the picking and choosing and so the seams are really showing. Starting the new paradigm with a Return To block was not the best decision. I'll be interested to see how they handle creating a new world with the new paradigm.
So about Nissa, I think the problem with her is that creative over invested in her greeness. What I read from Nissa's URs is a character that embodies the archetype of green's focus on the communal and interconnection. This could work as a great basis for a fully fleshed character but there's nothing else to Nissa (other than hinting at a past that doesn't exist anymore?).
Coming off that, she has no small scale. She doesn't have any little habits or smaller investments that help to really define someone. Jace loves a good puzzle and can be snark master supreme, Gideon has Munda and the Boros crew, Kiora tells the rules to go screw themselves and has her sister to worry about. There just isn't anything on that level for Nissa, she's got Ashaya but Ahsaya is literally Zendikar which is literally everything in the story that isn't white, chalky or Ob Nixilis.
Also hello, did you know ranting is a terrible way of introducing yourself?
So about Nissa, I think the problem with her is that creative over invested in her greeness. What I read from Nissa's URs is a character that embodies the archetype of green's focus on the communal and interconnection. This could work as a great basis for a fully fleshed character but there's nothing else to Nissa (other than hinting at a past that doesn't exist anymore?).
Coming off that, she has no small scale. She doesn't have any little habits or smaller investments that help to really define someone. Jace loves a good puzzle and can be snark master supreme, Gideon has Munda and the Boros crew, Kiora tells the rules to go screw themselves and has her sister to worry about. There just isn't anything on that level for Nissa, she's got Ashaya but Ahsaya is literally Zendikar which is literally everything in the story that isn't white, chalky or Ob Nixilis.
Also hello, did you know ranting is a terrible way of introducing yourself?
Ranting is perfectly normal way of introduction to forum. Strong emotions are often what it takes for lurker to start posting.
Salvatore's fight scenes don't quite hit the spot for me, they kind of feel like padding.
I do enjoy the fight scenes from Joe Abercrombie and Richard Morgan; wouldn't mind seeing their kind of nuance brought into the URs. I'd like more understated humor in the storyline. Like in that Tezzeret comic where he kept killing the imps Bolas sent after him. Should these be done in the style of anthologies like George Martin's Wild Cards, perhaps? Certain author(s) get a certain character and go whatever with them so long as it's given the OK by the head honcho?
When it comes to fight scenes, Matthew Stover's one of the best there is. His Star Wars fight scenes are like a sultry massage on the imagery sections of the brain. His fight scenes in Test of Metal are good too.
When it comes to fight scenes, Matthew Stover's one of the best there is. His Star Wars fight scenes are like a sultry massage on the imagery sections of the brain. His fight scenes in Test of Metal are good too.
Yeah, it was pretty solid. It's a shame Test of Metal gets bogged down by clockworking, Tezz is one of my favorite characters (top three with Daretti and Dack) and it's great on characterization, but the plot itself is just nonsensical.
Clockworking was way too needlessly confusing. That makes me feel like it was Creative that came up with the concept because there's no way Matt would just make that ish up lol.
Clockworking was way too needlessly confusing. That makes me feel like it was Creative that came up with the concept because there's no way Matt would just make that ish up lol.
For all we know, it was a test run for Tarkir. Sarkhan essentially did the same thing on a planar-scale (with a way-wider scope of impact but only 1 real choice), but only with the use of something that can possibly only exist in one timeline (otherwise you'd think Ugin would go to every other timeline and grab all the Nexuses there like Bolas did with his zombies.) Eldrazi Titans released? No problem!
Clockworking was way too needlessly confusing. That makes me feel like it was Creative that came up with the concept because there's no way Matt would just make that ish up lol.
From what I understand, the authors of the 'A Planeswalker Novel's were given free reign. Laura Resnick was given a very broad angle for Gideon, and she created everything about his character. And honestly, due to the timing of Test of Metal being around the same time as the implosion of the novels/webcomics/story, it wouldn't surprise me if it was just that no one was paying attention.
I think Clockworking was mentioned in the Planeswalker's Guide to Alara (with only a vague description of what it was), but it was probably the author's decision to build the story around it.
I think Clockworking was mentioned in the Planeswalker's Guide to Alara (with only a vague description of what it was), but it was probably the author's decision to build the story around it.
They'd need to have told him that Ren was a clockworker, which is why he was so powerful. Matt then used that as a sort of plot point.
In truth, clockworking was just a distraction of the story and didn't play a role beyond making really complex battles. Which is partly why I'm okay with it. Tezzeret had to use actual intelligence and planning to overcome Ren's (and fake Bolas') clockworking, so we were SHOWN him being smart. It was a battle of wits, and I really dug that for the character. Infinitely better than the so-called genius Jace that just runs around mind-wiping people.
Unfortunately the web comics required spending money on art, which I can see them discontinuing if it wasn't profitable. I also didn't like how the art style jumped around from comic to comic.
Also, unsure: is this the thread to ***** about the fat pack?
I don't think spoiling the entire story in the fat pack was the problem. The problem is that it took so godsdamn long to get from Point A (Sea Gate) to Point B (Khalni Heart), when there's still a Point C, D, and E left before the story catches up to the Fat Pack.
If we'd already gotten (or gotten close enough to; see below) the Battle of Sea Gate by release day, enough hints would have been dropped beforehand that Ob's reignition at the aligned hedron network would hardly have been a shocker.
Here's my projected timeline for how things should have gone:
1) Big Plot Point A: Battle at Sea Gate. So far so good. Introduce Gideon's clash with Tazri over leadership.
2) Start the story with Nissa losing Ashaya. Imply aftershocks of 1). Nissa hooks up with Gideon's camp, decides to actually do something instead of moping and whining, and is well on her way to Khalni Heart by the end of the story. In the meantime, have Nissa get to watch Gideon and Jace argue, setting up 3).
3) This is an awkward one because Drana's story must be in the next two weeks, Gideon's story must move forward so Drana's story makes sense, Jace's story must happen for Point C to make sense, and Point B must happen before Point C (and soon, so we don't all get annoyed with Nissa even more than we already are). So: Intercut Jace's travel to the Eye with Gideon's attempt to keep the camp together. Talk with Jori En>>Refugee arrival/argument with Tazri>>encounter with Ulamog>>Vorik dies, Gideon takes over as commander and decides to take back Sea Gate>>Jace realizes Ulamog is headed to Sea Gate, sends away Jori En and continues on to the Eye.
4) BFZ Preview Week #1. Big Plot Point B: The Khalni Heart. Nissa gets her groove back.
5) BFZ Preview Week #2. Drana's story. Not spoiled in the Fat Pack.
6) Big Plot Point C: Revelation at the Eye.
7) Kiora's story. Not spoiled in the Fat Pack.
The Fat Packs go on sale. By this point we've met Ob Nix, we know (more or less) Jace's plan, and we know the Zendikavengers are converging on Sea Gate. No one's role in Big Plot Point E should be a surprise by now.
8) Big Plot Point D: Liberation of Sea Gate part a). The gang all comes together.
9) Big Plot Point D: Liberation of Sea Gate part b). The actual battle that gives everyone their own fight scene.
10) Give Ob Nix a proper story, dammit, because he's the only 'walker in the set who hasn't gotten one. Set up 11). Not spoiled in the Fat Pack.
11) Big Plot Point E: Aligned Hedron Network.
12) Leave the fate of the Zendikari hanging. Nahiri. Sorin. Something hinting at the future set. Very Definitely Not Spoiled in the Fat Pack!
I pretty much can't will myself to sit through these stories now that I know the ending, and have not read this week's story as a result. That's a complaint, right?
I pretty much can't will myself to sit through these stories now that I know the ending, and have not read this week's story as a result. That's a complaint, right?
I pretty much can't will myself to sit through these stories now that I know the ending, and have not read this week's story as a result. That's a complaint, right?
This week's is the best so far.
It's so weird that I've been asking for more Gideon since I read The Purifying Fire last year, and now that I'm getting more Gideon I've lost interest. They're doing a good job with the Gideon character (only thing I disagree with is his retconned sparking; I liked that it was the serenity after battle and deep contemplation that made him awaken his spark), but the thing I'm most interested about with him hasn't gotten much of any focus: his relationship with Chandra. I've little doubt that the most recent story is good, but I just can't care about it.
I told myself I wasn't gonna ever write in here but this story I feel like could have used some help. I think the major disappointment is that it was trying to tell an epic battle but in very broad terms with few detail and character interactions. I would have preferred this story lasted over the course of 3-4 episodes with more detailed accounts from a varied cast of characters than the broad generalization given. For instance, I would have liked to see how these characters interacted with one another, The Vampire Blood-chief, the Snarky Merfolk wizard, the overly enthusiastic Kor General, and the critical military strategist. Not to mention the other planeswalkers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Wizards. listen. The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
I told myself I wasn't gonna ever write in here but this story I feel like could have used some help. I think the major disappointment is that it was trying to tell an epic battle but in very broad terms with few detail and character interactions. I would have preferred this story lasted over the course of 3-4 episodes with more detailed accounts from a varied cast of characters than the broad generalization given. For instance, I would have liked to see how these characters interacted with one another, The Vampire Blood-chief, the Snarky Merfolk wizard, the overly enthusiastic Kor General, and the critical military strategist. Not to mention the other planeswalkers.
Yeah, Gideon's charge in was just stupid, and then the rest of the battle was kind of a waste. I wish we had multiple stories about the retaking of Sea Gate instead of some of the filler stories we got early on.
So here's exactly what I've complained about: glacier plot turned into avalanche plot which swallows potentially interesting moments. Maybe next Zendikar UR will have stronger focus on characters, but for now it's just...
Vampires joined, but kor that were sent to fetch them didn't return? Not discussed.
Bunch of hungry vampires around? Mentioned in one sentence, and of course all went without any problems and troublemakers from any side.
Defeated and lost unclearly big part of army? Used for angst, caused no other consequences.
All the trouble of fetching roilshapers? For some drums and attempt to shape Nissa's elementals.
Nissa returned and saved their asses? Emotional response of "out troops gained +X to Morale".
Unknown planeswalker popped up carrying Dekella? "Good, our flank is covered". Btw, Gideon, you've just got harsh lesson on coordination of forces, why won't you try coordinating plans with Kiora?
Jori En running alone at top speed? How about some "*****, what exactly went wrong?" thoughts?
So if the goal was to show Gideon and co are so concentrated on battle that rainbow unicorns might appear and all they would think about is recapture of Sea Gate, then it's a success
Did anyone else here see John Beety's 11/05/15 column on StarCityGames about "Uncharted Realms"? I thought he had a very good analysis of why the Nissa stories have (so far) fallen flat, and what could be done about them.
It's so weird that I've been asking for more Gideon since I read The Purifying Fire last year, and now that I'm getting more Gideon I've lost interest. They're doing a good job with the Gideon character (only thing I disagree with is his retconned sparking; I liked that it was the serenity after battle and deep contemplation that made him awaken his spark), but the thing I'm most interested about with him hasn't gotten much of any focus: his relationship with Chandra. I've little doubt that the most recent story is good, but I just can't care about it.
I've been thinking about this for a while, and the planeswalkers are often at their most interesting when we are shown how they play off of each other. To your point, TerrorKingA, I think Gideon is at his most interesting when he is being contrasted with very different characters such as Chandra or Jace. (I hope we see more interaction with Kiora in the future, given the Theros connection. And I would love to see him forced by circumstances to work with a character like Liliana. Or in this currently storyline, let's have him interact directly with Drana.)
The recent Teysa story got me thinking. Why are all the female Black characters written the same? Liliana, Drana and Teysa are barely distinguishable, even on the superficial levels. They're all centuries-old schemers that manipulate the men around them to do what they want, and talk like teenage girls instead of weary old veterans. You don't see this kind of samey-ness with the male characters, and I feel the writers need to fix this issue going forward.
Tibalt, Koth, Daretti and Sarkhan are all as different as night and day. Lazav and Ashiok, despite both having the same mindfreak secret-stealing schtick are tremendously different as well. Now I don't mean to sound like the typical internet "feminist", but I think more can be done with the Black women, or just the women in general... but wizards will need to throw out any trepidation they might have lingering from Triumph of Ferocity for it to happen.
Since ranting about Nissa is okay here I'll throw my two cents in as well.
I am rather frustrated that they chose to remove Nissa's elf supremacy angle rather than owning and using it. So much of what Nissa is now would have more going on if it had the angle of her internal conflict. The recognition that she, even as an elf, was fallable with the whole releasing of the Eldrazi, the connection to the world through Ashaya and realizing the interconnectivity of all life and thus the elves were no more or less important than the human or the kor, etc, all of it could have lead to a strong arc with her fighting off her elf supremacist tendencies. It could have been very interesting for her to struggle with wrong headed ideas and have to learn fight against them. Heck, we know Wizards believes in torturing their characters and that would lead to some great moments of "who I am hates who I've been." It would have meant that you'd have to make her the sole province of teh most competent, experienced writers they had but it really feels like they tossed away a wonderful opportunity out of fear. I really don't like to think about what that fear was.
Nissa aside, I agree with what was stated on the first page. We're in the beginnings of a whole new paradigm and they're going to make creative misteps. Wizards of the Coast has demonstrated they're more than capable of learning what works and what doesn't so I know that once they get their feet under them they'll start swinging for the fences more and more.
Just a reminder that story criticisms should be posted here. Threads in storyline are for discussing the story itself, not the quality of the story. It's okay to talk about it a little bit, but if you want to get into detail come here.
Wasn't Brady the one in charge back then?
And a lot of the members of the current creative team weren't around back then.
Your mods are terrified of me.
I don't know the exact dates, but you're probably right.
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Coming off that, she has no small scale. She doesn't have any little habits or smaller investments that help to really define someone. Jace loves a good puzzle and can be snark master supreme, Gideon has Munda and the Boros crew, Kiora tells the rules to go screw themselves and has her sister to worry about. There just isn't anything on that level for Nissa, she's got Ashaya but Ahsaya is literally Zendikar which is literally everything in the story that isn't white, chalky or Ob Nixilis.
Also hello, did you know ranting is a terrible way of introducing yourself?
So hello
I do enjoy the fight scenes from Joe Abercrombie and Richard Morgan; wouldn't mind seeing their kind of nuance brought into the URs. I'd like more understated humor in the storyline. Like in that Tezzeret comic where he kept killing the imps Bolas sent after him. Should these be done in the style of anthologies like George Martin's Wild Cards, perhaps? Certain author(s) get a certain character and go whatever with them so long as it's given the OK by the head honcho?
Your mods are terrified of me.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Your mods are terrified of me.
For all we know, it was a test run for Tarkir. Sarkhan essentially did the same thing on a planar-scale (with a way-wider scope of impact but only 1 real choice), but only with the use of something that can possibly only exist in one timeline (otherwise you'd think Ugin would go to every other timeline and grab all the Nexuses there like Bolas did with his zombies.) Eldrazi Titans released? No problem!
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
They'd need to have told him that Ren was a clockworker, which is why he was so powerful. Matt then used that as a sort of plot point.
In truth, clockworking was just a distraction of the story and didn't play a role beyond making really complex battles. Which is partly why I'm okay with it. Tezzeret had to use actual intelligence and planning to overcome Ren's (and fake Bolas') clockworking, so we were SHOWN him being smart. It was a battle of wits, and I really dug that for the character. Infinitely better than the so-called genius Jace that just runs around mind-wiping people.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Also, unsure: is this the thread to ***** about the fat pack?
I don't think spoiling the entire story in the fat pack was the problem. The problem is that it took so godsdamn long to get from Point A (Sea Gate) to Point B (Khalni Heart), when there's still a Point C, D, and E left before the story catches up to the Fat Pack.
If we'd already gotten (or gotten close enough to; see below) the Battle of Sea Gate by release day, enough hints would have been dropped beforehand that Ob's reignition at the aligned hedron network would hardly have been a shocker.
Here's my projected timeline for how things should have gone:
1) Big Plot Point A: Battle at Sea Gate. So far so good. Introduce Gideon's clash with Tazri over leadership.
2) Start the story with Nissa losing Ashaya. Imply aftershocks of 1). Nissa hooks up with Gideon's camp, decides to actually do something instead of moping and whining, and is well on her way to Khalni Heart by the end of the story. In the meantime, have Nissa get to watch Gideon and Jace argue, setting up 3).
3) This is an awkward one because Drana's story must be in the next two weeks, Gideon's story must move forward so Drana's story makes sense, Jace's story must happen for Point C to make sense, and Point B must happen before Point C (and soon, so we don't all get annoyed with Nissa even more than we already are). So: Intercut Jace's travel to the Eye with Gideon's attempt to keep the camp together. Talk with Jori En>>Refugee arrival/argument with Tazri>>encounter with Ulamog>>Vorik dies, Gideon takes over as commander and decides to take back Sea Gate>>Jace realizes Ulamog is headed to Sea Gate, sends away Jori En and continues on to the Eye.
4) BFZ Preview Week #1. Big Plot Point B: The Khalni Heart. Nissa gets her groove back.
5) BFZ Preview Week #2. Drana's story. Not spoiled in the Fat Pack.
6) Big Plot Point C: Revelation at the Eye.
7) Kiora's story. Not spoiled in the Fat Pack.
The Fat Packs go on sale. By this point we've met Ob Nix, we know (more or less) Jace's plan, and we know the Zendikavengers are converging on Sea Gate. No one's role in Big Plot Point E should be a surprise by now.
8) Big Plot Point D: Liberation of Sea Gate part a). The gang all comes together.
9) Big Plot Point D: Liberation of Sea Gate part b). The actual battle that gives everyone their own fight scene.
10) Give Ob Nix a proper story, dammit, because he's the only 'walker in the set who hasn't gotten one. Set up 11). Not spoiled in the Fat Pack.
11) Big Plot Point E: Aligned Hedron Network.
12) Leave the fate of the Zendikari hanging. Nahiri. Sorin. Something hinting at the future set. Very Definitely Not Spoiled in the Fat Pack!
"Screw the rules, I have a massive dinner fork!"
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Your mods are terrified of me.
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[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
It's so weird that I've been asking for more Gideon since I read The Purifying Fire last year, and now that I'm getting more Gideon I've lost interest. They're doing a good job with the Gideon character (only thing I disagree with is his retconned sparking; I liked that it was the serenity after battle and deep contemplation that made him awaken his spark), but the thing I'm most interested about with him hasn't gotten much of any focus: his relationship with Chandra. I've little doubt that the most recent story is good, but I just can't care about it.
Your mods are terrified of me.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Vampires joined, but kor that were sent to fetch them didn't return? Not discussed.
Bunch of hungry vampires around? Mentioned in one sentence, and of course all went without any problems and troublemakers from any side.
Defeated and lost unclearly big part of army? Used for angst, caused no other consequences.
All the trouble of fetching roilshapers? For some drums and attempt to shape Nissa's elementals.
Nissa returned and saved their asses? Emotional response of "out troops gained +X to Morale".
Unknown planeswalker popped up carrying Dekella? "Good, our flank is covered". Btw, Gideon, you've just got harsh lesson on coordination of forces, why won't you try coordinating plans with Kiora?
Jori En running alone at top speed? How about some "*****, what exactly went wrong?" thoughts?
So if the goal was to show Gideon and co are so concentrated on battle that rainbow unicorns might appear and all they would think about is recapture of Sea Gate, then it's a success
I've been thinking about this for a while, and the planeswalkers are often at their most interesting when we are shown how they play off of each other. To your point, TerrorKingA, I think Gideon is at his most interesting when he is being contrasted with very different characters such as Chandra or Jace. (I hope we see more interaction with Kiora in the future, given the Theros connection. And I would love to see him forced by circumstances to work with a character like Liliana. Or in this currently storyline, let's have him interact directly with Drana.)
Tibalt, Koth, Daretti and Sarkhan are all as different as night and day. Lazav and Ashiok, despite both having the same mindfreak secret-stealing schtick are tremendously different as well. Now I don't mean to sound like the typical internet "feminist", but I think more can be done with the Black women, or just the women in general... but wizards will need to throw out any trepidation they might have lingering from Triumph of Ferocity for it to happen.
No, but I have now.
His points on Nissa are the sames ones I've been making since Origins.
Your mods are terrified of me.
I am rather frustrated that they chose to remove Nissa's elf supremacy angle rather than owning and using it. So much of what Nissa is now would have more going on if it had the angle of her internal conflict. The recognition that she, even as an elf, was fallable with the whole releasing of the Eldrazi, the connection to the world through Ashaya and realizing the interconnectivity of all life and thus the elves were no more or less important than the human or the kor, etc, all of it could have lead to a strong arc with her fighting off her elf supremacist tendencies. It could have been very interesting for her to struggle with wrong headed ideas and have to learn fight against them. Heck, we know Wizards believes in torturing their characters and that would lead to some great moments of "who I am hates who I've been." It would have meant that you'd have to make her the sole province of teh most competent, experienced writers they had but it really feels like they tossed away a wonderful opportunity out of fear. I really don't like to think about what that fear was.
Nissa aside, I agree with what was stated on the first page. We're in the beginnings of a whole new paradigm and they're going to make creative misteps. Wizards of the Coast has demonstrated they're more than capable of learning what works and what doesn't so I know that once they get their feet under them they'll start swinging for the fences more and more.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath