Just wondering if anyone noticed that the new dispel has Ugin and JAce arguing about what to do with the eldrazi. One wants to destroy the other wants to contain. That plus the new Ugin land makes me think we might get new version of both in the next playset. What do you guys think?
One wants to destroy the other wants to contain. That plus the new Ugin land makes me think we might get new version of both in the next playset. What do you guys think?
That this belongs to RM speculation subforum, and not to Storyline.
That said, with the pics of Oath of the Gatewatch out, I expect to see new version of Nissa, and either Jace or Chandra. Ugin is too in the background here to be directly involved, and getting a card.
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Yeah I don't think Ugin is someone they want showing up in running blocks.
As for the flavor text it's hard to take it seriously considering Aligned Hedron Network. I mean Jace may want to destroy Ulamog but does he even know what that entails? Ugin has a valid reason to not destroy them without further research into what important purpose the Eldrazi might have. For all of Jace's snark in the flavor text of Hedron Archive The seal on the Eldrazi was pretty much still functioning if it hadn't been for a certain mind mage feeling the need to stalk a fiery red head into a cave.
The seal on the Eldrazi was pretty much still functioning if it hadn't been for a certain mind mage feeling the need to stalk a fiery red head into a cave.
But that's exactly the point. Three random planeswalkers showing up was enough to kick off setting the Eldrazi free. And Ugin clearly didn't care about studying the Eldrazi, since as soon as the Eldrazi trap was complete he left.
But that's exactly the point. Three random planeswalkers showing up was enough to kick off setting the Eldrazi free. And Ugin clearly didn't care about studying the Eldrazi, since as soon as the Eldrazi trap was complete he left.
To be fair I don't think that at the time Ugin believed anyone would go searching for the Eye. He may not have believed that Bolas would have any reason to release them and set all of this up. As for the studying part we don't know that. He may have left, he may have stayed for some time then left, he may have left and returned periodically. I mean we know that Tarkir literally needs him to function properly. Besides I would think that him studying the removal of the Eldrazi from the multiverse would require leaving to see the effects of them not being there. Hindsight being 20/20 I think Ugin wishes he had designed the lock differently now.
I wouldn't blame Jace for releasing Eldrazi. It might be cheap excuses from a fan, but he had no way to know what will happen, and even if he would somehow step back and not pursue Chandra I doubt Bolas would just abandon this plan because of one planeswalker not appearing.
As for this precise flavor text... sadly that's far from the most ********ish flavor text by Jace, and I also need to see the context to make a decision on how crazy this phrase actually was.
To be fair I don't think that at the time Ugin believed anyone would go searching for the Eye. He may not have believed that Bolas would have any reason to release them and set all of this up. As for the studying part we don't know that. He may have left, he may have stayed for some time then left, he may have left and returned periodically. I mean we know that Tarkir literally needs him to function properly. Besides I would think that him studying the removal of the Eldrazi from the multiverse would require leaving to see the effects of them not being there. Hindsight being 20/20 I think Ugin wishes he had designed the lock differently now.
Sure, but that's still my point. Ugin isn't exactly a master planner and I think Jace is rightly criticizing his plan.
Especially because the plan was dependent on the three walkers being alive to help, with no contingency in place if they died somehow.
Sure, but that's still my point. Ugin isn't exactly a master planner and I think Jace is rightly criticizing his plan.
Especially because the plan was dependent on the three walkers being alive to help, with no contingency in place if they died somehow.
I don't think Jace is wrong to criticize. Also: What contingency do you have against three incomprehensible forces beyond nature escaping the one plan you had against them? Ugin wasn't sure killing them was even possible.
The seal on the Eldrazi was pretty much still functioning if it hadn't been for a certain mind mage feeling the need to stalk a fiery red head into a cave.
But that's exactly the point. Three random planeswalkers showing up was enough to kick off setting the Eldrazi free. And Ugin clearly didn't care about studying the Eldrazi, since as soon as the Eldrazi trap was complete he left.
Isn't is 3 walkers AND ghostfire? The last part seems to be why Ugin thought it was somewhat safe. Could he really count on Bolas manipulating things (Chandra) through Ramaz?
The seal on the Eldrazi was pretty much still functioning if it hadn't been for a certain mind mage feeling the need to stalk a fiery red head into a cave.
But that's exactly the point. Three random planeswalkers showing up was enough to kick off setting the Eldrazi free. And Ugin clearly didn't care about studying the Eldrazi, since as soon as the Eldrazi trap was complete he left.
Isn't is 3 walkers AND ghostfire? The last part seems to be why Ugin thought it was somewhat safe. Could he really count on Bolas manipulating things (Chandra) through Ramaz?
Given that apparently anyone can learn Ghostfire he probably should have considered something a little bit more than three walkers and one spell. Admittedly it worked for thousands of years but it would have been way more secure for Ugin to just have a key.
The seal on the Eldrazi was pretty much still functioning if it hadn't been for a certain mind mage feeling the need to stalk a fiery red head into a cave.
But that's exactly the point. Three random planeswalkers showing up was enough to kick off setting the Eldrazi free. And Ugin clearly didn't care about studying the Eldrazi, since as soon as the Eldrazi trap was complete he left.
Isn't is 3 walkers AND ghostfire? The last part seems to be why Ugin thought it was somewhat safe. Could he really count on Bolas manipulating things (Chandra) through Ramaz?
Given that apparently anyone can learn Ghostfire he probably should have considered something a little bit more than three walkers and one spell. Admittedly it worked for thousands of years but it would have been way more secure for Ugin to just have a key.
1) We don't know how easy it is to learn Ghostfire.
2) Complaints about Ugin's system seem similar to complaints about the original Guildpact and they're equally as petty. When a system lasts for thousands of years it seems to have worked, even if it isn't perfect or worse, fails. Because the alternatives are infinitely worse.
Complaints about Ugin's system seem similar to complaints about the original Guildpact and they're equally as petty. When a system lasts for thousands of years it seems to have worked, even if it isn't perfect or worse, fails. Because the alternatives are infinitely worse.
It is possible to acknowledge a success and still point out problems that were completely preventable. The design of the Guildpact was way worse than Ugin's plan, though, his only mistake seems to have been in assuming that no one else could use Ghostfire which is understandable (although I still think a key would be better).
Technically the ghostfire+walkers was the key. Also remember that grouping Oldwalkers up was much more of an event than currently, as they were all demigods with varying degrees of sanity.
And I think 10000 years of stability under the Guildpact speaks for itself.
A physical key would be objectively worse than a combination lock. What happens when Bolas kills Ugin and steals the key? Physical keys can be copied, their locks can be picked easier. Having a "combination" lock like he did makes much more safe. Chandra kind of accidentally cast a ghostfire and other than her we only know of a few Jeskai who can use Ghostfire. Then again we don't even know for certain that what the Tarkirans can use is actually ghostfire rather than just another name for colorless mana.
Hell I'd be interested in knowing how Bolas figured out the combination to the Eye.
Perhaps Bolas found out about the eldrazi and that is why he(attempted?) to kill Ugin and it took him that long to figure out how to open the hedrons. I wouldn't be surprised if Bolas knows more now than Ugin does about the eldrazi and their place in the Universe.
And I think 10000 years of stability under the Guildpact speaks for itself.
I just don't see how anyone can not see the potential problem in using the Guildpact to empower a group of people to destroy the Guildpact. Again, 10000 years of relative peace is good but it could have been a million if they didn't set themselves up to fail for no reason.
I just don't see how anyone can not see the potential problem in using the Guildpact to empower a group of people to destroy the Guildpact. Again, 10000 years of relative peace is good but it could have been a million if they didn't set themselves up to fail for no reason.
Basically every governmental system empowers some group with the ability to destroy said government. The Queen of England can disband Parliament when she deems it needed, the American people are actually obliged by the Constitution and the Declaration of Independance to rise against erroneous governance. I'm not sure on the details you're talking about but it's not surprising that there's a caveat in the Guildpact allowing some group to disband the governing power, even if it's an enchantment.
Hell I'd be interested in knowing how Bolas figured out the combination to the Eye.
Bolas has mind magic, I'm guessing Bolas was able to mind**** Ugin when they fought and to got all the info before he "killed" Ugin. I think Bolas said as much in one of the webcomics.
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I just don't see how anyone can not see the potential problem in using the Guildpact to empower a group of people to destroy the Guildpact. Again, 10000 years of relative peace is good but it could have been a million if they didn't set themselves up to fail for no reason.
You mean the Dimir? The theory was that threats to the Guildpact by the Dimir would work to create new/more effective defenses against attacks. Sort of like hiring hackers to test your susceptibility to hacking. Granted it turns out to have been a ruse from the beginning but still, it was a solid plan in theory.
Sure, but that's still my point. Ugin isn't exactly a master planner and I think Jace is rightly criticizing his plan.
Especially because the plan was dependent on the three walkers being alive to help, with no contingency in place if they died somehow.
I don't think Jace is wrong to criticize. Also: What contingency do you have against three incomprehensible forces beyond nature escaping the one plan you had against them? Ugin wasn't sure killing them was even possible.
Enlist more allies in his quest. As I say below, he had plenty of time.
The seal on the Eldrazi was pretty much still functioning if it hadn't been for a certain mind mage feeling the need to stalk a fiery red head into a cave.
But that's exactly the point. Three random planeswalkers showing up was enough to kick off setting the Eldrazi free. And Ugin clearly didn't care about studying the Eldrazi, since as soon as the Eldrazi trap was complete he left.
Isn't is 3 walkers AND ghostfire? The last part seems to be why Ugin thought it was somewhat safe. Could he really count on Bolas manipulating things (Chandra) through Ramaz?
Well, he clearly knew of Bolas, right? And he had somewhere around 4,800 years to do something more about the Eldrazi before he was taken out.
I'm not sure we know how long Ugin knew of Bolas. And after several thousand years maybe Ugin thought the plan worked well enough to not risk any change in the Eldrazi containment.
I just don't see how anyone can not see the potential problem in using the Guildpact to empower a group of people to destroy the Guildpact. Again, 10000 years of relative peace is good but it could have been a million if they didn't set themselves up to fail for no reason.
Basically every governmental system empowers some group with the ability to destroy said government. The Queen of England can disband Parliament when she deems it needed, the American people are actually obliged by the Constitution and the Declaration of Independance to rise against erroneous governance. I'm not sure on the details you're talking about but it's not surprising that there's a caveat in the Guildpact allowing some group to disband the governing power, even if it's an enchantment.
I mean that the Guildpact magically empowers the Dimir and compells them to attempt to destroy the Guildpact. They're basically a terrorist state funded by the people they're trying to wipe out.
Anyway we should probably move this discussion to another thread.
The Eye of Ugin, assuming the location is still canon, is hardly easy to find. Once you get on the path to getting in, you're faced with a nesting place for giant drakes. Once you get past them, you need 3 Planeswalkers, one having mastered Ghostfire. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through, and if Sorin, Nahiri or Ugin did not tell you about these necessary hoops, you'd never unlock it.
Just about...everyone. ;-)
That this belongs to RM speculation subforum, and not to Storyline.
That said, with the pics of Oath of the Gatewatch out, I expect to see new version of Nissa, and either Jace or Chandra. Ugin is too in the background here to be directly involved, and getting a card.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
As for the flavor text it's hard to take it seriously considering Aligned Hedron Network. I mean Jace may want to destroy Ulamog but does he even know what that entails? Ugin has a valid reason to not destroy them without further research into what important purpose the Eldrazi might have. For all of Jace's snark in the flavor text of Hedron Archive The seal on the Eldrazi was pretty much still functioning if it hadn't been for a certain mind mage feeling the need to stalk a fiery red head into a cave.
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To be fair I don't think that at the time Ugin believed anyone would go searching for the Eye. He may not have believed that Bolas would have any reason to release them and set all of this up. As for the studying part we don't know that. He may have left, he may have stayed for some time then left, he may have left and returned periodically. I mean we know that Tarkir literally needs him to function properly. Besides I would think that him studying the removal of the Eldrazi from the multiverse would require leaving to see the effects of them not being there. Hindsight being 20/20 I think Ugin wishes he had designed the lock differently now.
As for this precise flavor text... sadly that's far from the most ********ish flavor text by Jace, and I also need to see the context to make a decision on how crazy this phrase actually was.
Especially because the plan was dependent on the three walkers being alive to help, with no contingency in place if they died somehow.
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I don't think Jace is wrong to criticize. Also: What contingency do you have against three incomprehensible forces beyond nature escaping the one plan you had against them? Ugin wasn't sure killing them was even possible.
Isn't is 3 walkers AND ghostfire? The last part seems to be why Ugin thought it was somewhat safe. Could he really count on Bolas manipulating things (Chandra) through Ramaz?
Given that apparently anyone can learn Ghostfire he probably should have considered something a little bit more than three walkers and one spell. Admittedly it worked for thousands of years but it would have been way more secure for Ugin to just have a key.
1) We don't know how easy it is to learn Ghostfire.
2) Complaints about Ugin's system seem similar to complaints about the original Guildpact and they're equally as petty. When a system lasts for thousands of years it seems to have worked, even if it isn't perfect or worse, fails. Because the alternatives are infinitely worse.
Why should it be something that can even be learned at all, though?
It is possible to acknowledge a success and still point out problems that were completely preventable. The design of the Guildpact was way worse than Ugin's plan, though, his only mistake seems to have been in assuming that no one else could use Ghostfire which is understandable (although I still think a key would be better).
And I think 10000 years of stability under the Guildpact speaks for itself.
Hell I'd be interested in knowing how Bolas figured out the combination to the Eye.
That's a good point, I hadn't considered that.
Also it makes me wonder how the eye can even recognize a post-Mending spark.
I just don't see how anyone can not see the potential problem in using the Guildpact to empower a group of people to destroy the Guildpact. Again, 10000 years of relative peace is good but it could have been a million if they didn't set themselves up to fail for no reason.
Basically every governmental system empowers some group with the ability to destroy said government. The Queen of England can disband Parliament when she deems it needed, the American people are actually obliged by the Constitution and the Declaration of Independance to rise against erroneous governance. I'm not sure on the details you're talking about but it's not surprising that there's a caveat in the Guildpact allowing some group to disband the governing power, even if it's an enchantment.
Bolas has mind magic, I'm guessing Bolas was able to mind**** Ugin when they fought and to got all the info before he "killed" Ugin. I think Bolas said as much in one of the webcomics.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
You mean the Dimir? The theory was that threats to the Guildpact by the Dimir would work to create new/more effective defenses against attacks. Sort of like hiring hackers to test your susceptibility to hacking. Granted it turns out to have been a ruse from the beginning but still, it was a solid plan in theory.
Well, he clearly knew of Bolas, right? And he had somewhere around 4,800 years to do something more about the Eldrazi before he was taken out.
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I mean that the Guildpact magically empowers the Dimir and compells them to attempt to destroy the Guildpact. They're basically a terrorist state funded by the people they're trying to wipe out.
Anyway we should probably move this discussion to another thread.
This is definitely not unrealistic though.
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Yeah but you don't usually write it into the constitution.
The Eye of Ugin, assuming the location is still canon, is hardly easy to find. Once you get on the path to getting in, you're faced with a nesting place for giant drakes. Once you get past them, you need 3 Planeswalkers, one having mastered Ghostfire. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through, and if Sorin, Nahiri or Ugin did not tell you about these necessary hoops, you'd never unlock it.
Ugin did nothing wrong.
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