I quite liked this story. Alhammaret's reasoning was cool, I finally GET why Jace keeps removing all his memories (At a young age. he killed some general, possibly some kid, and was betrayed by his mentor whom he killed). Cliched story is cliched, but it's not bad. I really want an origin story that doesn't revolve around some totally antagonistic character. I would have preferred ONE of the antagonists to at least be somewhat relate-able, because all these stories are starting to sound unfortunately similar. Hoping Gideon's is closer to "Gideon does his thing because he wants to be a hero of the people" rather then "Gideon does his thing because trauma caused by someone he then later beats, igniting his spark," but it's gunna be the latter one probably, calling it now. Place your bets.
Gideon will be a person trying to do the right thing. He may work outside the law a bit, (we know he grew up on the street before being found by Hixus, it was either stated or implied he led a Robin-Hood style group of street kids who thought they were doing the right thing). Gideon has been characterized as the perfect "hero" figure, doing good for the sake of good, no side issues.
As for being sympathetic with walkers, yes Jace was shown in a more sympathetic light, but he has in general shown to be a decent person (who sometimes makes questionable moral decisions). Liliana's origin story does NOT paint her as a decent person. She is trying to save her brother, but she barely hesitates to use dark magic and kill the witches to do so. Having a tragic backstory is pretty common for an engaging villian, someone who is evil and sadistic just for the sake of it tend to be a little too linear to be the center of a story. Having a tragic backstory doesnt make her a good person; the second half of the story is literally her selling her soul for power and immortality. Knowing someone's motivations can make you empathize with almost anyone. Nissa could be a pretty questionable character (perhaps having the same views toward outsiders as the Llanowar, kill anyone who tresspasses? Her earlier self has already shown to be rascist, so perhaps she had that view since childhood (or she could have learned it on Lorwyn)
Ugh, Jace still isn't an interesting character to me. I can't sympathize with him at all. His major flaws are that he's super smart and powerful?
Alhammaret's reason for deceiving Jace was unbelievable, too. He kept the war going because without it he'd be out of a job? I'm sure a giant mind-reading sphinx could find something to do to keep himself occupied.
Vryn doesn't seem that fascinating of a plane, either. They have... magic. Okay. What else? What makes the plane special?
I agree with Jace being a bit boring. If only they had made the thoughts of others able to overwhelm him, like they did to Watercrafters in the Codex of Alara series if you've ever read it.
As far as Vryn goes, I think it has a lot of potential. It's a plane stuck in perpetual, global war, instigated by the arbiters of "peace". It reminded me of 1984, which is pretty sweet in my mind. Alhammaret's reasoning is solid in my book, he has a place of massive power, and can shape the world as he see fit, while never having to deal with the consequences of his actions. He had the perfect dictatorship, playing both sides off of each other. Now that we know more about the Sphinx, I am pretty upset that he wasn't UB. In my mind, it's the perfect UB character.
I liked Alhammaret's character. He was doing what he thought was the logical decision. His strategy of playing the two sides off of each other to keep either side from destroying the rings when they lose (which is a very realistic fear). Blue is perfectly fine with the logical thing to do, even if it hurts some people, as long as it is what's better overall. (And is more likely to value the structure and civilization of the mage rings over such a little thing like human life).
I imagine that if we return to Vryn again, it would be after the whole eternal war thing has fallen apart because of Alhammaret's death. It'd actually be kinda funny if Jace actually ended up creating a post-apocalyptic setting with people fighting over control of the mines using technology scraps from the Mana Rings golden era.
Fallout 4!!!
and Jace can create and wear Power Armor and become Iron Jace
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
What's the downside of being beholden to a demon? I mean, obviously bad stuff, but why does Lilli need to kill them?
The demons will want to collect on their bargains. It's kinda like a magical loan. It's fun for a while, but sooner or later the bank comes-a-calling and you're much less happy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A giant dork. Who likes to eat with forks. Never used a spork.
Decks: Casual R Burn R
EDH R Godo Voltron R RUG ETB Overload RUG BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW GW Spirits!!! GW RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
Retcon, retcon, retcon everywhere! I wonder how they will retcon the remaining planeswalker stories. It would have been nicer if they've given the community a heads up that retconville is on the horizon.
That aside, is spell casting aside from mind magic can only be done at certain places on Vryn? It feels that magic is scarce enough for school-type bullying for those who have the ability to wield it. It would also explain why they need the mage rings in the first place since they cannot use magic willy-nilly and have to channel mana from the core.
I am interested in the Mage Rings. Do they affect Alhammaret's ability to use magic? If so I can see he wanting to keep them around, if not it's all to keep the other beings on the plane fighting the war in order to maintain dominance. I can't see this character being benevolent they way he went about doing several of the things he did.
I would have like to hear about the sphinx's motives for keeping the mage rings around, and what his real end goals were. Could have easily given it to us when Jace entered his mind.
The demons will want to collect on their bargains. It's kinda like a magical loan. It's fun for a while, but sooner or later the bank comes-a-calling and you're much less happy.
One would think so. It also is worth noting that Liliana probably doesn't want to be under anyone's thumb, and while she is indentured to these demons that is exactly what she is. She went to them to extend her life, and now that she feels that they are not longer needed to do that she doesn't want to be under their control in the slightest. This was her plan from the beginning as well.
Any retconning that took place in the last two stories is very minor and can easily be explained away. In fact, I think they have done quite well to maintain most of the integrity of information that we have already gotten, such as places like Silmots Crossing and names such as Alhammaret and Lady Ana, especially considering most of these creative decisions did not originate with anyone one the creative team.
Retcon, retcon, retcon everywhere! I wonder how they will retcon the remaining planeswalker stories. It would have been nicer if they've given the community a heads up that retconville is on the horizon.
What are you talking about? There was hardly any retcon in Jace's story, and similarly, almost none in Liliana's. Only Chandra.
Jace's story just took known facts and used them, though sometimes in an unexpected way. That is NOT a retcon.
They are really building up on Liliana's hatred for angels. I wonder if that will be the plot line for her next UR.
I think we'll get it together with the Griselbrand pact story - seeing Dark Petition implies we'll be getting one (and the fact Griselbrand is as dead as Kothophed means his pact-story needs to be told in Origins) and Innistrad is the most "Angels vs Demons on a single plane" we've seen so far.
To my surprise I really enjoyed this story depsite being netural on Jace as a character. I was a little iffy that they mentioned the Boros, Izzet and Orzhov, since the guilds should be in ruins at this point, though I think those just got three chaotic and disorganized but still around.
Edit: Anyone notice that Jace wears symbols on this clothing that is shapped like Alhammarret collar?
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
The story had its weak points, but overall, I liked it. I went in with zero expectations and actually enjoyed reading about Jace's home plane and how he became a walker.
Some of Jace's character development was indeed pretty clichéd though. I found especially cheap how easily his talent was discovered by his mother. She literally immediately realized he's a telepath through that small conversation. From what was implied he didn't exactly start reading minds the day before the exams, so that bit felt kind of forced.
Vryn really seemed like an interesting place though and I liked Alhammarret as a character, although bringing "money" into the mix as a motivation was a bit strange. If he really was the incredibly powerful being he was portrayed as, money should've been one of his least concerns.
Quick note as to why Alhammaret sent Jace - Jace was human, and could easily blend in where a giant sphinx could not.
Also, it was mentioned that telepathic powers have some kind of range. Because even Alhammarret could not read minds across the whole plane, he used Jace in order to get more information in a shorter period of time.
For future stories (as others have already said), I would like to see one where the ignition of a character's spark isn't caused by some kind of trauma. Sure, such a thing might be a powerful catalyst, but you can only tell that story so often before it becomes repetitive.
Ob Nixilis awakened his spark when he realized he killed everyone on his plane and now has nothing to rule over. The trauma of a war-less world sunk in and made his spark activate.
Gideon, after defeating an opponent he really had no business beating, reflected on his win and his spark activated.
Heliod is arrogant but not a jerk or villain IMO. He's simply misinformed white philosophy. Godsend elaborated his thought pattern well. For example, as an onlooker his fight with Thassa made him look like a prick. But in reality, his intentions were to highlight a major problem with the metaphysics of Theros and uniting the gods in addressing what eventually became Xenagos. Let's be honest here - whatever a Planeswalker was to a being who only knows about Theros the way Heliod does isn't something that reflects well. Xenagos damages Nyx, becomes a god and throws off the natural order, and Elspeth manages to enter Nyx and kill him with a god-forged weapon (which arguably is a greater feat than any Theros hero before her). Whatever these Nyx-damaging, god weapon wielding, god-killing entities that walk worlds are, they're a threat to the natural order of Theros as Heliod sees it through white philosophy, and if killing Elspeth preserves Theros for all Therans, then he chose the community over the individual.
Heliod could have killed Ajani. But he didn't know Ajani was a Planeswalker too. Heliod isn't Kruphix. Heliod is genuinely worried about Theros as I see it, despite his selfish reasons. Sure he wants something to rule, sure he's asserting control over what he unrightfully sees as his sole domain, sure he's hated for this attitude, but at the end of the day, I don't feel he killed Elspeth out of spite or malice, but because he was misinformed and feared her as a threat to the status quo.
Imagine if he knew about Dack stealing artifacts on the Dakra Isles, or Ashiok making dream deities and manipulating Ephara, or obliterating Iretis, or as Kiora stealing krakens and the Bident itself, and infuriating Thassa. Let's be honest, Planeswalkers were a complete menace on Theros.
------
I LOVED Jace's story and it helps me identify with him more, and understand him as a character and understand his motives more now. I always admired Jace for his genuine curiosity and pursuit of knowledge/advancing intellect (such as being excited to see Kamigawa and learn of its magic in Agents of Artifice) but he feels more accessible as a character now. Let alone one that many can feel with. I don't see a cliche story, I see a well executed attempt at inclusion where it makes the best sense. Magic is all about community and similar interest and Jace as someone who is searching for an identity after feeling like an outcast but realizing the potential he has is very admirable to me.
Retcon, retcon, retcon everywhere! I wonder how they will retcon the remaining planeswalker stories. It would have been nicer if they've given the community a heads up that retconville is on the horizon.
What are you talking about? There was hardly any retcon in Jace's story, and similarly, almost none in Liliana's. Only Chandra.
Jace's story just took known facts and used them, though sometimes in an unexpected way. That is NOT a retcon.
Retcon, retcon, retcon everywhere! I wonder how they will retcon the remaining planeswalker stories. It would have been nicer if they've given the community a heads up that retconville is on the horizon.
What are you talking about? There was hardly any retcon in Jace's story, and similarly, almost none in Liliana's. Only Chandra.
Jace's story just took known facts and used them, though sometimes in an unexpected way. That is NOT a retcon.
Retcon, retcon, retcon everywhere! I wonder how they will retcon the remaining planeswalker stories. It would have been nicer if they've given the community a heads up that retconville is on the horizon.
What are you talking about? There was hardly any retcon in Jace's story, and similarly, almost none in Liliana's. Only Chandra.
Jace's story just took known facts and used them, though sometimes in an unexpected way. That is NOT a retcon.
You know something, the longer I think about it the more I know why Vryn bothered me. I wanted a kind of lost technology world with Vryn. Those Mage Rings looked like tech that was impressive... but not all that well maintained. I was seeing a world where people for some reason lost the knowledge of a far more advanced civilization and were just trying to survive as best they could with the leftovers with some problem on the rise and needing the best minds available to solve it.
That said, the more I thought about it the more I'm okay with what we've got here. I did see the opening as a bit cliche (I'm dealing with a story that handles the main character being bullied even though he's much smarter than the people he deals with in a much more clever way so I'm being a bit spoiled) but I can deal with it. The friendship with Emmara being as long as it's been for Jace though, that's kind of interesting to me.
You know something, the longer I think about it the more I know why Vryn bothered me. I wanted a kind of lost technology world with Vryn. Those Mage Rings looked like tech that was impressive... but not all that well maintained. I was seeing a world where people for some reason lost the knowledge of a far more advanced civilization and were just trying to survive as best they could with the leftovers with some problem on the rise and needing the best minds available to solve it.
One thing that I simply didn't care too much was the setting. On both Jace and Chandra's history (and liliana too) we see almost nothing about the world - because they have a VERY limited space to tell the history they want to tell. In the end, I'd like to see more about both worlds, but won't be like "When we're going to Vryn MaRo?".
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You know something, the longer I think about it the more I know why Vryn bothered me. I wanted a kind of lost technology world with Vryn. Those Mage Rings looked like tech that was impressive... but not all that well maintained. I was seeing a world where people for some reason lost the knowledge of a far more advanced civilization and were just trying to survive as best they could with the leftovers with some problem on the rise and needing the best minds available to solve it.
One thing that I simply didn't care too much was the setting. On both Jace and Chandra's history (and liliana too) we see almost nothing about the world - because they have a VERY limited space to tell the history they want to tell. In the end, I'd like to see more about both worlds, but won't be like "When we're going to Vryn MaRo?".
I was definitely getting a Shadow of the Colossus-esque vibe from the Planechase card.
Hopefully they'll do a UR or Arcana just dedicated to the planes of Origins, the way they've done for Planechase. Normally we would get setting detail from the cards themselves but they seem to be reserving a disproportionate amount to showing off characters and story moments.
Gideon will be a person trying to do the right thing. He may work outside the law a bit, (we know he grew up on the street before being found by Hixus, it was either stated or implied he led a Robin-Hood style group of street kids who thought they were doing the right thing). Gideon has been characterized as the perfect "hero" figure, doing good for the sake of good, no side issues.
As for being sympathetic with walkers, yes Jace was shown in a more sympathetic light, but he has in general shown to be a decent person (who sometimes makes questionable moral decisions). Liliana's origin story does NOT paint her as a decent person. She is trying to save her brother, but she barely hesitates to use dark magic and kill the witches to do so. Having a tragic backstory is pretty common for an engaging villian, someone who is evil and sadistic just for the sake of it tend to be a little too linear to be the center of a story. Having a tragic backstory doesnt make her a good person; the second half of the story is literally her selling her soul for power and immortality. Knowing someone's motivations can make you empathize with almost anyone. Nissa could be a pretty questionable character (perhaps having the same views toward outsiders as the Llanowar, kill anyone who tresspasses? Her earlier self has already shown to be rascist, so perhaps she had that view since childhood (or she could have learned it on Lorwyn)
I liked Alhammaret's character. He was doing what he thought was the logical decision. His strategy of playing the two sides off of each other to keep either side from destroying the rings when they lose (which is a very realistic fear). Blue is perfectly fine with the logical thing to do, even if it hurts some people, as long as it is what's better overall. (And is more likely to value the structure and civilization of the mage rings over such a little thing like human life).
Fallout 4!!!
and Jace can create and wear Power Armor and become Iron Jace
What's the downside of being beholden to a demon? I mean, obviously bad stuff, but why does Lilli need to kill them?
The demons will want to collect on their bargains. It's kinda like a magical loan. It's fun for a while, but sooner or later the bank comes-a-calling and you're much less happy.
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
That aside, is spell casting aside from mind magic can only be done at certain places on Vryn? It feels that magic is scarce enough for school-type bullying for those who have the ability to wield it. It would also explain why they need the mage rings in the first place since they cannot use magic willy-nilly and have to channel mana from the core.
I would have like to hear about the sphinx's motives for keeping the mage rings around, and what his real end goals were. Could have easily given it to us when Jace entered his mind.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
But I mean, when they collect, do you just die?
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
What are you talking about? There was hardly any retcon in Jace's story, and similarly, almost none in Liliana's. Only Chandra.
Jace's story just took known facts and used them, though sometimes in an unexpected way. That is NOT a retcon.
BTW, there is a nice Vorthos-aimed preview couple of cards, AKA How Liliana Got Her Tiara: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/anttessitore-062515-story-moments-meet-archangel-of-tithes-and-unholy-hunger/
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
I think we'll get it together with the Griselbrand pact story - seeing Dark Petition implies we'll be getting one (and the fact Griselbrand is as dead as Kothophed means his pact-story needs to be told in Origins) and Innistrad is the most "Angels vs Demons on a single plane" we've seen so far.
Edit: Anyone notice that Jace wears symbols on this clothing that is shapped like Alhammarret collar?
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Some of Jace's character development was indeed pretty clichéd though. I found especially cheap how easily his talent was discovered by his mother. She literally immediately realized he's a telepath through that small conversation. From what was implied he didn't exactly start reading minds the day before the exams, so that bit felt kind of forced.
Vryn really seemed like an interesting place though and I liked Alhammarret as a character, although bringing "money" into the mix as a motivation was a bit strange. If he really was the incredibly powerful being he was portrayed as, money should've been one of his least concerns.
Also, it was mentioned that telepathic powers have some kind of range. Because even Alhammarret could not read minds across the whole plane, he used Jace in order to get more information in a shorter period of time.
For future stories (as others have already said), I would like to see one where the ignition of a character's spark isn't caused by some kind of trauma. Sure, such a thing might be a powerful catalyst, but you can only tell that story so often before it becomes repetitive.
Ob Nixilis awakened his spark when he realized he killed everyone on his plane and now has nothing to rule over. The trauma of a war-less world sunk in and made his spark activate.
Gideon, after defeating an opponent he really had no business beating, reflected on his win and his spark activated.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Heliod could have killed Ajani. But he didn't know Ajani was a Planeswalker too. Heliod isn't Kruphix. Heliod is genuinely worried about Theros as I see it, despite his selfish reasons. Sure he wants something to rule, sure he's asserting control over what he unrightfully sees as his sole domain, sure he's hated for this attitude, but at the end of the day, I don't feel he killed Elspeth out of spite or malice, but because he was misinformed and feared her as a threat to the status quo.
Imagine if he knew about Dack stealing artifacts on the Dakra Isles, or Ashiok making dream deities and manipulating Ephara, or obliterating Iretis, or as Kiora stealing krakens and the Bident itself, and infuriating Thassa. Let's be honest, Planeswalkers were a complete menace on Theros.
------
I LOVED Jace's story and it helps me identify with him more, and understand him as a character and understand his motives more now. I always admired Jace for his genuine curiosity and pursuit of knowledge/advancing intellect (such as being excited to see Kamigawa and learn of its magic in Agents of Artifice) but he feels more accessible as a character now. Let alone one that many can feel with. I don't see a cliche story, I see a well executed attempt at inclusion where it makes the best sense. Magic is all about community and similar interest and Jace as someone who is searching for an identity after feeling like an outcast but realizing the potential he has is very admirable to me.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
And this is why I hate Liliana >_>
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
You hate her because she killed someone who was going to kill her?
Fixed that for you
That said, the more I thought about it the more I'm okay with what we've got here. I did see the opening as a bit cliche (I'm dealing with a story that handles the main character being bullied even though he's much smarter than the people he deals with in a much more clever way so I'm being a bit spoiled) but I can deal with it. The friendship with Emmara being as long as it's been for Jace though, that's kind of interesting to me.
One thing that I simply didn't care too much was the setting. On both Jace and Chandra's history (and liliana too) we see almost nothing about the world - because they have a VERY limited space to tell the history they want to tell. In the end, I'd like to see more about both worlds, but won't be like "When we're going to Vryn MaRo?".
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I was definitely getting a Shadow of the Colossus-esque vibe from the Planechase card.
Hopefully they'll do a UR or Arcana just dedicated to the planes of Origins, the way they've done for Planechase. Normally we would get setting detail from the cards themselves but they seem to be reserving a disproportionate amount to showing off characters and story moments.
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!