I always wonder how the card game could equate to a battle between two or more wizards. I know you can't take the whole game literally but I have a few questions.
- How do lands work? Many people on these forums have said that the lands aren't summoned but just imagined and that brings forth mana. If that is the case, how do water creatures work (especially those with islandhome/islandwalk) if for example a fish is summoned onto the grass? And for that matter how does any Xwalk ability work?
- Are the creatures real or just some kind of magical clone? Most creatures will do whatever their controller tells them to do but some are unruly (like a creature that must attack every turn), are they a created from a scroll or pulled from a plane somewhere? And do these creatures continue to exist after the battle? If someone summoned a Progenitus, would it then go off and destroy the plane later at its leisure later?
- I have always wondered how walls work. When a wall is summoned does it surround the wizard on all sides? If that is the case why can a wall only block one creature a turn? If the wall is only a small section then does the wizard move it around to block creatures?
- And lastly and probably the most literal, how could the deck be explained? Are the wizards really disorganized and they are both flipping through their spellbooks trying to find spells that would be useful in the middle of the fight?
Even WotC has admitted that matching the flavor to the game mechanics is basically impossible. For any interpretation you can quickly find cards for which it becomes absurd.
Lands represent "manabonds" connections that the player has to energy on various planes.
What exactly creatures are has been inconsistent. They certainly don't linger, though.
Walls definitely move. You can even give them Swiftfoot Boots to help them run around the battlefield!
My preferred interpretation is that spells which make no physical sense are abstractions. You don't summon a wall you summon its essence in some way that satisfies the game mechanics.
Way back when I was a kiddo, playing Microprose's MTG Shandalar, I saw it as two planeswalkers (think uber sorcerors) who were in their respective towers. Playing lands wasn't as much putting them on the field as it was allocating the local resources and drew power from it. Kinda like how Robert Asprin's Myth series wizards would draw power from "magic lines" that were weaker or stronger depending on the dimension they were in.
Creatures were things they zapped into existence by the raw power of their wills. And once there, they were subject to being controlled by their maker. Walls were trashy creature types that should have had the ability to block multiple creatures. Might have actually made some playable beyond Plumeveil which was played more like a kill spell anyways.
There was a very brief time when we didn't have walls and instead we had creatures with defenders.
And it was good.
And then Wizards said they bring back walls, because they make so much flavour sense, except that nothing, literally nothing about them makes sense within the game.
They shouldn't even be creatures!
As for talking about personal interpretations, I like to imagine games in Magic to be actually about two armies or factions fighting it out over a long period of time. This removes so many flavour issues you might have. Each creatue represents an army, so you can explain how a bunch of squirrels can kill Emrakul, because each squirrel token would represent a whole swarm. Also the timeframe makes situations in which 6 spells or effects are on the stack plausible.
Unfortunately, that headcanon is so much removed from actual canon that it'll never catch on, but it lets me sleep at night.
Basically the deeper you think about it the less sense it makes?
I like to think that the walls are on little wheels and a stand and the wizard puts it in the way of things. I would love to see a drawing of a wall wearing boots, however that could occur.
Also kind of confusing to think about the names of spells, where did wizards learn the spell "Yawgmoths will" from.
Did Microprose's Shandalar have any animations that showed their idea on how a battle would happen?
Perhaps the wall type could have blocked up to two or three creature (the others climb on the heads of the creatures attacking with them to get over )
I really wish they brought back deck boxes like that!
Each creatue represents an army, so you can explain how a bunch of squirrels can kill Emrakul, because each squirrel token would represent a whole swarm.
But wouldn't Emrakul represent an army of Emrakuls? j/k I think it's a shame Wizards doesn't do more with cards that represent multiple creatures.
The way Planeswalkers were described -- we call the "Pre Mending" nowadays -- was designed around the powers that a player in a game of Magic possesses. Duels are battles between Walkers. Even now, just consider that you are a Pre-mending level Walker and your summoned Walkers are post-mending weenie walkers, and that's pretty much how you should conceive of it.
Basically the deeper you think about it the less sense it makes?
I like to think that the walls are on little wheels and a stand and the wizard puts it in the way of things. I would love to see a drawing of a wall wearing boots, however that could occur.
Also kind of confusing to think about the names of spells, where did wizards learn the spell "Yawgmoths will" from.
Did Microprose's Shandalar have any animations that showed their idea on how a battle would happen?
Perhaps the wall type could have blocked up to two or three creature (the others climb on the heads of the creatures attacking with them to get over )
I really wish they brought back deck boxes like that!
hahahaha it had the greatest tutorial video ever. It was so awesomely bad.
Fast forward to about the 13 minute mark and enjoy my nostalgia.
Oh, and this game is also free because of abandonware. So if you want to look for it and download it like I have, it's actually worth it. It was primarily set for ABUR to 4th edition, but the online version "Duels of the Planeswalkers" for deckbuilding was updated all the way to the Urza's Saga I think.
Original (Alpha) flavor was indeed a fight of two planeswalkers - for the control of a plane. It wasn't a six-second-per-turn D&D battle of two wizards literally reading spells from a book, but two sorcerer-warlords trying to control a world. A turn could very well represent days of campaign, each combat was a full combat not a exchange of blows, lands were territory you actually controlled and could draw mana and other resources. Card draw is random because it represents the resources you could grab during that period of time - the artifact you were building, the wide-area enchantment you had the necessary components to ritually finish, the armies you had ready to deploy into the battlefield, the special land you had just found.
For the "each creature card is actually an army", there's a reason much more cards cards from that time literally represent groups of creatures (Llanowar elves, grizzly bears).
Considering how there are artifacts that act as walls I am not sure why wizards feel the need to have creature walls as well.
Sweet, real actors in Shandalar!? Its so cheesy I love it, if only the new Duel of the planeswalker games had as much life and love put into them.
Thinking of the battle as a long war on over a plane, like one of Paradox's turn based strategy games or Civilization makes sense in some ways, I like the idea that drawing from your deck could represent your various lands and holdings having a regiment ready for you to command or completed the construction of an artifact. But when it comes to spells it makes less sense, Like if you Counterspell a single spell that was just cast in a heated duel you that works, but if the counterspell is somehow removing an entire army of goblins who came down from the mountains to fight that is harder to imagine. Certainly makes land destruction make a bit more sense.
The way Planeswalkers were described -- we call the "Pre Mending" nowadays -- was designed around the powers that a player in a game of Magic possesses. Duels are battles between Walkers. Even now, just consider that you are a Pre-mending level Walker and your summoned Walkers are post-mending weenie walkers, and that's pretty much how you should conceive of it.
That's not really how Wizards presents it. At all.
Planeswalker cards use loyalty because it's "calling in a favor from a buddy." You have Ajani on interplanar speeddial. You cast a spell that calls him and says "Hey, I'm fighting a really important battle, and remember when I helped you with that thing on the place? Can you come lend me a hand? Oh, and don't be an vengeant and angry, I just need you to come help my other friends." Ajani shows up, ready to mentor some heroes, and sticks around until things get too rough. You let him do what he enjoys, he becomes more loyal. He takes damage or starts casting the hard spells, he becomes less likely to stay by your side because he's hurt and tired. Eventually his loyalty reaches zero and he leaves, because he's got his own stuff to do and this isn't really his fight anyway.
Also, gameplay and story segregation is a real phenomenon, and something to keep in mind. Not everything flavor-wise has a one-to-one correspondence to game mechanics.
That's not the point. The point is that the original, pre-mending planeswalkers were equivalent to players. That's why they explained initially that Walkers were too strong to include in the game. It's only the wimpy, post-mending walkers that are low enough in power level to represent in the game. Even so, they do their best to make walkers into kind of "allies" that cast their own spells and can be attacked like players can.
The way Planeswalkers were described -- we call the "Pre Mending" nowadays -- was designed around the powers that a player in a game of Magic possesses. Duels are battles between Walkers. Even now, just consider that you are a Pre-mending level Walker and your summoned Walkers are post-mending weenie walkers, and that's pretty much how you should conceive of it.
That doesn't really work that well though since Liliana, Nicol Bolas, Ugin, Sorin, Ob Nixilis and Karn etc. are all Pre-Mending planeswalkers too. How comes they were all effected despite all their power and experience while you were not?
I think this is one of the things where you really have the segregate gameplay from flavor. I think none of the black-aligned planeswalkers would probably even show up just to help you without getting something in return.
The way Planeswalkers were described -- we call the "Pre Mending" nowadays -- was designed around the powers that a player in a game of Magic possesses. Duels are battles between Walkers. Even now, just consider that you are a Pre-mending level Walker and your summoned Walkers are post-mending weenie walkers, and that's pretty much how you should conceive of it.
Except that falls apart with pre-mending Ugin the Spirit Dragon, Nahiri the Lithomancer, Nicol Bolas, Ob-Nixilis, Teferi Temporal Archmage, and Freyalise. The official explanation is that you are drawing on the help of a planeswalker who is allied with you. That is why they do not die but instead lose loyalty counters and leave when they die.
The way Planeswalkers were described -- we call the "Pre Mending" nowadays -- was designed around the powers that a player in a game of Magic possesses. Duels are battles between Walkers. Even now, just consider that you are a Pre-mending level Walker and your summoned Walkers are post-mending weenie walkers, and that's pretty much how you should conceive of it.
That doesn't really work that well though since Liliana, Nicol Bolas, Ugin, Sorin, Ob Nixilis and Karn etc. are all Pre-Mending planeswalkers too. How comes they were all effected despite all their power and experience while you were not?
I think this is one of the things where you really have the segregate gameplay from flavor. I think none of the black-aligned planeswalkers would probably even show up just to help you without getting something in return.
Even black characters are allowed to have friends and allies. And who is to say that Liliana isn't playing the Galerion planeswalker card to help her in her Magical duels?
Even black characters are allowed to have friends and allies.
True.
But this kind of stuff is a lot more shallow between black-aligned characters. You run the risk of being stabbed in the back after all.
Just ask Kothophed and Griselbrand how their alliance and deal with Liliana turned out.
And who is to say that Liliana isn't playing the Galerion planeswalker card to help her in her Magical duels?
You know I could now make a joke about how Liliana can play as much as she wants with me but I will refrain from doing that.
Oh wait
Anyway you really can't make sense of it in general since it also depends on which decks the people are playing with each other. A Burn mirror for example is pretty easy to portray as a duel between wizards. Two dudes throwing Lightning Bolts at each other faces. Totally sounds like wizard stuff.
But then you also get weird stuff like the Ad Nauseam mirror where both sides are just doing something I guess just not battling each other really since they could just straight up loose if they go for it.
Just ask Kothophed and Griselbrand how their alliance and deal with Liliana turned out.
They didn't have any alliance; they didn't even have contact with each other. They exist on two completely different planes. Liliana made a series of deals where what she got from one bargain was used as collateral for a different bargain; a sort of ponzi scheme with her soul, if you will. The four demons she struck deals with don't even know the other bargains are in place.
Just ask Kothophed and Griselbrand how their alliance and deal with Liliana turned out.
They didn't have any alliance; they didn't even have contact with each other. They exist on two completely different planes. Liliana made a series of deals where what she got from one bargain was used as collateral for a different bargain; a sort of ponzi scheme with her soul, if you will. The four demons she struck deals with don't even know the other bargains are in place.
I know.
I was talking about them independently. They both paid the price for dealing with Liliana. That is all.
A couple of thoughts based on several points raised:
1. Walls - Prior to 6th Edition, Creatures cards said "Summon X" on the type line, and I always took this to mean that Wall cards represented a spell summoning a Wall out of magical force (e.g. Wall of Fire or Wall of Shadows) similar to summoning an elemental. They were just treated as Creatures for mechanical simplicity - thematically, most of them were more akin to Enchantments (made of magic) than Artifacts (physical object).
2. Lands - WotC has said several times that Lands represent mental mana links or connections to a location's leylines (which is obvious at odds with what the Landhome cards like Sea Serpent imply about Lands, but there you go.)
3. Hand and Library - Your hand represents the spells you are currently holding in your mind, a la Vancian magic (the "fire and forget" system used in Dungeons and Dragons based on how magic was depected in "The Dying Earth" stories by Jack Vance) Your library, as stated, represents some combination of your spellbooks and the spells in your deeper memory that must be called to more conscious mind to use. (Once again, the symbolism isn't always consistent, as the differing flavor of discard and mill spells indicates.)
4. Black Planeswalkers - I can think of plenty of reasons why planeswalkers like Liliana Vess and Nicol Bolas might be willing to answer your summons, although I think the simplest way to look at it is, now you owe them a favor. (Bolas would assuredly try to twist any debt into servitude, and I can definitely see Liliana as the type that might horde favors for future use.) Actually, I rather like the idea that planeswalkers routinely trade favors - "I'll answer you summons the next time you call, but you had better reciprocate when I come calling." - and see a lot of interesting story possibilities in that idea.
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I always wonder how the card game could equate to a battle between two or more wizards. I know you can't take the whole game literally but I have a few questions.
- How do lands work? Many people on these forums have said that the lands aren't summoned but just imagined and that brings forth mana. If that is the case, how do water creatures work (especially those with islandhome/islandwalk) if for example a fish is summoned onto the grass? And for that matter how does any Xwalk ability work?
- Are the creatures real or just some kind of magical clone? Most creatures will do whatever their controller tells them to do but some are unruly (like a creature that must attack every turn), are they a created from a scroll or pulled from a plane somewhere? And do these creatures continue to exist after the battle? If someone summoned a Progenitus, would it then go off and destroy the plane later at its leisure later?
- I have always wondered how walls work. When a wall is summoned does it surround the wizard on all sides? If that is the case why can a wall only block one creature a turn? If the wall is only a small section then does the wizard move it around to block creatures?
- And lastly and probably the most literal, how could the deck be explained? Are the wizards really disorganized and they are both flipping through their spellbooks trying to find spells that would be useful in the middle of the fight?
Cheers!
[glib]Vaugely.[/glib]
Even WotC has admitted that matching the flavor to the game mechanics is basically impossible. For any interpretation you can quickly find cards for which it becomes absurd.
Lands represent "manabonds" connections that the player has to energy on various planes.
What exactly creatures are has been inconsistent. They certainly don't linger, though.
Walls definitely move. You can even give them Swiftfoot Boots to help them run around the battlefield!
My preferred interpretation is that spells which make no physical sense are abstractions. You don't summon a wall you summon its essence in some way that satisfies the game mechanics.
Creatures were things they zapped into existence by the raw power of their wills. And once there, they were subject to being controlled by their maker. Walls were trashy creature types that should have had the ability to block multiple creatures. Might have actually made some playable beyond Plumeveil which was played more like a kill spell anyways.
And yes, the deck was basically an analogy for a spellbook. This could be seen in the early edition deck boxes that actually looked like little books. http://940ee6dce6677fa01d25-0f55c9129972ac85d6b1f4e703468e6b.r99.cf2.rackcdn.com/products/pictures/94544.jpg
And it was good.
And then Wizards said they bring back walls, because they make so much flavour sense, except that nothing, literally nothing about them makes sense within the game.
They shouldn't even be creatures!
As for talking about personal interpretations, I like to imagine games in Magic to be actually about two armies or factions fighting it out over a long period of time. This removes so many flavour issues you might have. Each creatue represents an army, so you can explain how a bunch of squirrels can kill Emrakul, because each squirrel token would represent a whole swarm. Also the timeframe makes situations in which 6 spells or effects are on the stack plausible.
Unfortunately, that headcanon is so much removed from actual canon that it'll never catch on, but it lets me sleep at night.
I like to think that the walls are on little wheels and a stand and the wizard puts it in the way of things. I would love to see a drawing of a wall wearing boots, however that could occur.
Also kind of confusing to think about the names of spells, where did wizards learn the spell "Yawgmoths will" from.
Did Microprose's Shandalar have any animations that showed their idea on how a battle would happen?
Perhaps the wall type could have blocked up to two or three creature (the others climb on the heads of the creatures attacking with them to get over )
I really wish they brought back deck boxes like that!
But wouldn't Emrakul represent an army of Emrakuls? j/k I think it's a shame Wizards doesn't do more with cards that represent multiple creatures.
hahahaha it had the greatest tutorial video ever. It was so awesomely bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCSwYO2TEhk
Fast forward to about the 13 minute mark and enjoy my nostalgia.
Oh, and this game is also free because of abandonware. So if you want to look for it and download it like I have, it's actually worth it. It was primarily set for ABUR to 4th edition, but the online version "Duels of the Planeswalkers" for deckbuilding was updated all the way to the Urza's Saga I think.
For the "each creature card is actually an army", there's a reason much more cards cards from that time literally represent groups of creatures (Llanowar elves, grizzly bears).
Sweet, real actors in Shandalar!? Its so cheesy I love it, if only the new Duel of the planeswalker games had as much life and love put into them.
Thinking of the battle as a long war on over a plane, like one of Paradox's turn based strategy games or Civilization makes sense in some ways, I like the idea that drawing from your deck could represent your various lands and holdings having a regiment ready for you to command or completed the construction of an artifact. But when it comes to spells it makes less sense, Like if you Counterspell a single spell that was just cast in a heated duel you that works, but if the counterspell is somehow removing an entire army of goblins who came down from the mountains to fight that is harder to imagine. Certainly makes land destruction make a bit more sense.
Planeswalker cards use loyalty because it's "calling in a favor from a buddy." You have Ajani on interplanar speeddial. You cast a spell that calls him and says "Hey, I'm fighting a really important battle, and remember when I helped you with that thing on the place? Can you come lend me a hand? Oh, and don't be an vengeant and angry, I just need you to come help my other friends." Ajani shows up, ready to mentor some heroes, and sticks around until things get too rough. You let him do what he enjoys, he becomes more loyal. He takes damage or starts casting the hard spells, he becomes less likely to stay by your side because he's hurt and tired. Eventually his loyalty reaches zero and he leaves, because he's got his own stuff to do and this isn't really his fight anyway.
Also, gameplay and story segregation is a real phenomenon, and something to keep in mind. Not everything flavor-wise has a one-to-one correspondence to game mechanics.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
That doesn't really work that well though since Liliana, Nicol Bolas, Ugin, Sorin, Ob Nixilis and Karn etc. are all Pre-Mending planeswalkers too. How comes they were all effected despite all their power and experience while you were not?
I think this is one of the things where you really have the segregate gameplay from flavor. I think none of the black-aligned planeswalkers would probably even show up just to help you without getting something in return.
Except that falls apart with pre-mending Ugin the Spirit Dragon, Nahiri the Lithomancer, Nicol Bolas, Ob-Nixilis, Teferi Temporal Archmage, and Freyalise. The official explanation is that you are drawing on the help of a planeswalker who is allied with you. That is why they do not die but instead lose loyalty counters and leave when they die.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Even black characters are allowed to have friends and allies. And who is to say that Liliana isn't playing the Galerion planeswalker card to help her in her Magical duels?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
True.
But this kind of stuff is a lot more shallow between black-aligned characters. You run the risk of being stabbed in the back after all.
Just ask Kothophed and Griselbrand how their alliance and deal with Liliana turned out.
You know I could now make a joke about how Liliana can play as much as she wants with me but I will refrain from doing that.
Oh wait
Anyway you really can't make sense of it in general since it also depends on which decks the people are playing with each other. A Burn mirror for example is pretty easy to portray as a duel between wizards. Two dudes throwing Lightning Bolts at each other faces. Totally sounds like wizard stuff.
But then you also get weird stuff like the Ad Nauseam mirror where both sides are just doing something I guess just not battling each other really since they could just straight up loose if they go for it.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
I know.
I was talking about them independently. They both paid the price for dealing with Liliana. That is all.
I'm waiting wotsee.
I suppose that's as close as we'll get. Discarding in black isn't always a negative, though.
1. Walls - Prior to 6th Edition, Creatures cards said "Summon X" on the type line, and I always took this to mean that Wall cards represented a spell summoning a Wall out of magical force (e.g. Wall of Fire or Wall of Shadows) similar to summoning an elemental. They were just treated as Creatures for mechanical simplicity - thematically, most of them were more akin to Enchantments (made of magic) than Artifacts (physical object).
2. Lands - WotC has said several times that Lands represent mental mana links or connections to a location's leylines (which is obvious at odds with what the Landhome cards like Sea Serpent imply about Lands, but there you go.)
3. Hand and Library - Your hand represents the spells you are currently holding in your mind, a la Vancian magic (the "fire and forget" system used in Dungeons and Dragons based on how magic was depected in "The Dying Earth" stories by Jack Vance) Your library, as stated, represents some combination of your spellbooks and the spells in your deeper memory that must be called to more conscious mind to use. (Once again, the symbolism isn't always consistent, as the differing flavor of discard and mill spells indicates.)
4. Black Planeswalkers - I can think of plenty of reasons why planeswalkers like Liliana Vess and Nicol Bolas might be willing to answer your summons, although I think the simplest way to look at it is, now you owe them a favor. (Bolas would assuredly try to twist any debt into servitude, and I can definitely see Liliana as the type that might horde favors for future use.) Actually, I rather like the idea that planeswalkers routinely trade favors - "I'll answer you summons the next time you call, but you had better reciprocate when I come calling." - and see a lot of interesting story possibilities in that idea.