Griselbrand. Is he the most powerful demon in the multiverse (before Lily killed him)? Which demon is stronger than him if there is any? Anything else that relates to the topic?
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Griselbrand. Is he the most powerful demon in the multiverse (before Lily killed him)?
Probably not.
Which demon is stronger than him if there is any?
One of the following:
* the All-Consuming Oni of Chaos
* Ob Nixilis
* Whichever unnamed demon Liliana is planning to take down last, from the four she made pacts with (Griselbrand was just #2).
Anything else that relates to the topic?
Griselbrand was certainly strong enough to need Avacyn sacrificing herself to stop him the first time. His essence still exist on the plane and will eventually take form again.
When Liliana killed him, it was more because The Chain Veil is stupidly strong, not that he was weak.
One of the following:
* the All-Consuming Oni of Chaos
* Ob Nixilis
* Whichever unnamed demon Liliana is planning to take down last, from the four she made pacts with (Griselbrand was just #2).
I wouldn't really county Ob Nixilis on this list, as he's a planeswalker who took the form of a demon and lost his spark. He's not a true demon in the sense that he's a being formed of black mana.
Withengar (Withengar Unbound) is probably more powerful than Griselbrand, but he doesn't have a story focus. Power-wise, he's the strongest Demon in the game. Story-wise, he's the guy who killed Saint Traft (Geist of Saint Traft)
Also important--when Grislebrand's essence reforms, it will be as a brand new demon. When a demon on Innistrad is killed, its essence returns to the hell-place-who's-name-I-can't-recall where it's recycled to spawn new demons.
I assume Liliana's going after her demons in order of least powerful to most, although that's not confirmed.
The most powerful acting demon on Innistrad was Griselbrand, likely due to the fact that Withengar was sealed in a dagger. We know Griselbrand is nothing compared to Avacyn, however, and was weak enough to be oneshot by Liliana. As far as planar threats go, he's not at all impressive.
I wouldn't really county Ob Nixilis on this list, as he's a planeswalker who took the form of a demon and lost his spark. He's not a true demon in the sense that he's a being formed of black mana.
We was turned into a demon by the chain veil curse. It was not shapeshifting like Sarkhan turning into a dragon, but actually changing what he was into something that is considered a Demon to the game.
I didn't read the original poster as requiring only "true mana-construct demons" to be ranked.
Withengar (Withengar Unbound) is probably more powerful than Griselbrand, but he doesn't have a story focus. Power-wise, he's the strongest Demon in the game. Story-wise, he's the guy who killed Saint Traft (Geist of Saint Traft)
Yeah, I could see Withengar being stronger than Griselbrand - both being demons so strong someone had to make a sacrifice and bound them rather than let their essence be free.
But just remember card stats doesn't always perfectly reflect character strength (I very much doubt Krosan Cloudscraper could actually fight Ulamog or Kozilek at all).
We was turned into a demon by the chain veil curse. It was not shapeshifting like Sarkhan turning into a dragon, but actually changing what he was into something that is considered a Demon to the game.
Oh right, the Curse Veil. I forgot about that.
Yeah, I could see Withengar being stronger than Griselbrand - both being demons so strong someone had to make a sacrifice and bound them rather than let their essence be free.
But just remember card stats doesn't always perfectly reflect character strength (I very much doubt Krosan Cloudscraper could actually fight Ulamog or Kozilek at all).
I wouldn't really county Ob Nixilis on this list, as he's a planeswalker who took the form of a demon and lost his spark. He's not a true demon in the sense that he's a being formed of black mana.
How about Ob's original patron/patrons? They scoured an entire plane clean of life.
I wouldn't really county Ob Nixilis on this list, as he's a planeswalker who took the form of a demon and lost his spark. He's not a true demon in the sense that he's a being formed of black mana.
How about Ob's original patron/patrons? They scoured an entire plane clean of life.
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Griselbrand is probably among the most powerful demons in the Multiverse, but likely not *the* most powerful. He was top demon on a black-aligned horror plane; I think he's a big deal even if he isn't *the* big deal. Despite being defeated by Avacyn, he's still tricky enough to seal her with him for a time. He's a slippery one even when defeated. It's just that the Chain Veil, wielded by a Planeswalker, was too powerful. It may be able to one-shot big shots like Griselbrand and Kothephed but we've seen its use comes at a drastic price. For what it's worth Lilliana attempted returning the Chain Veil and presumably killing the remaining two demons without it so IDK if that suggests something about the remaining two or if that says more about her reluctance to be in debt to the artifact down the line instead, or both.
I don't know if Griselbrand's essence will reform as the other demons had when Avacyn killed them. Lilliana and the Chain Veil are extra-planar and he was said to have been destroyed utterly and presumably permanently. If he does return though, he won't be the same demon anyway I suppose but I have a feeling he will not, being killed by a force foreign to the plane and quite powerful at that.
Withgenger is an interesting contender, but I doubt he is more powerful than Girselbrand. Withgenger was successfully sealed after all, so someone had effectively defeated him. And presumably before the time of Avacyn too, since he was sealed in an artifact and not the Helvault.
Griselbrand is probably among the most powerful demons in the Multiverse, but likely not *the* most powerful. He was top demon on a black-aligned horror plane; I think he's a big deal even if he isn't *the* big deal. Despite being defeated by Avacyn, he's still tricky enough to seal her with him for a time. He's a slippery one even when defeated. It's just that the Chain Veil, wielded by a Planeswalker, was too powerful. It may be able to one-shot big shots like Griselbrand and Kothephed but we've seen its use comes at a drastic price. For what it's worth Lilliana attempted returning the Chain Veil and presumably killing the remaining two demons without it so IDK if that suggests something about the remaining two or if that says more about her reluctance to be in debt to the artifact down the line instead, or both.
I don't know if Griselbrand's essence will reform as the other demons had when Avacyn killed them. Lilliana and the Chain Veil are extra-planar and he was said to have been destroyed utterly and presumably permanently. If he does return though, he won't be the same demon anyway I suppose but I have a feeling he will not, being killed by a force foreign to the plane and quite powerful at that.
Withgenger is an interesting contender, but I doubt he is more powerful than Girselbrand. Withgenger was successfully sealed after all, so someone had effectively defeated him. And presumably before the time of Avacyn too, since he was sealed in an artifact and not the Helvault.
Withengar is an interesting example. The story which features him suggests that demons on Innistrad come back as themselves if destroyed. So if Griselbrand isn't dead (although I think creative has been clear that he's gone) he'll come back and know exactly what happened.
We don't know exactly what happened to Withengar to result in him being bound so I don't know if its fair to say being bound means he's less powerful than Griselbrand. Currently he seems likely to be the top demon on Innistrad. I mean even while bound he was powerful enough to either control St Traft or completely deceive his senses.
Griselbrand is probably among the most powerful demons in the Multiverse, but likely not *the* most powerful. He was top demon on a black-aligned horror plane; I think he's a big deal even if he isn't *the* big deal. Despite being defeated by Avacyn, he's still tricky enough to seal her with him for a time. He's a slippery one even when defeated. It's just that the Chain Veil, wielded by a Planeswalker, was too powerful. It may be able to one-shot big shots like Griselbrand and Kothephed but we've seen its use comes at a drastic price. For what it's worth Lilliana attempted returning the Chain Veil and presumably killing the remaining two demons without it so IDK if that suggests something about the remaining two or if that says more about her reluctance to be in debt to the artifact down the line instead, or both.
I don't know if Griselbrand's essence will reform as the other demons had when Avacyn killed them. Lilliana and the Chain Veil are extra-planar and he was said to have been destroyed utterly and presumably permanently. If he does return though, he won't be the same demon anyway I suppose but I have a feeling he will not, being killed by a force foreign to the plane and quite powerful at that.
Withgenger is an interesting contender, but I doubt he is more powerful than Girselbrand. Withgenger was successfully sealed after all, so someone had effectively defeated him. And presumably before the time of Avacyn too, since he was sealed in an artifact and not the Helvault.
Withengar is an interesting example. The story which features him suggests that demons on Innistrad come back as themselves if destroyed. So if Griselbrand isn't dead (although I think creative has been clear that he's gone) he'll come back and know exactly what happened.
We don't know exactly what happened to Withengar to result in him being bound so I don't know if its fair to say being bound means he's less powerful than Griselbrand. Currently he seems likely to be the top demon on Innistrad. I mean even while bound he was powerful enough to either control St Traft or completely deceive his senses.
Demons on Innistrad reform as new demons, not as the same. There will be no return of Griselbrand.
Demons on Innistrad reform as new demons, not as the same. There will be no return of Griselbrand.
I agree that Griselbrand is gone but the lore isn't clear about whether or not they come back as the same demon. Withengar is destroyed by angels in The Saint, the Geist, and the Angel and the expectation is clearly that Withengar specifically is going to return eventually.
Obsy becomes a Planeswalker after Demons kill all life on his home plane (That's 'Black Oath') and at some point becomes cursed by the Chain Veil and turns into a Demon. He becomes trapped on Zendikar (it's unclear if Zendikar or the Chain Veil is responsible for the loss of his Spark, but 'The Fallen's' Flavor Text implies he at least believes it was Zendikar). Nahiri implants the hedron in his Forehead and significantly reduces his power ('The Fallen') until the unnamed planeswalker from DOTP 2014 removes it to stop Garruk, at which point he becomes 'Unshackled'.
I assume we won't have to wait long to find out what happens to him next, since we're returning to Zendikar in the fall.
We was turned into a demon by the chain veil curse. It was not shapeshifting like Sarkhan turning into a dragon, but actually changing what he was into something that is considered a Demon to the game.
Yeah, I could see Withengar being stronger than Griselbrand - both being demons so strong someone had to make a sacrifice and bound them rather than let their essence be free.
But just remember card stats doesn't always perfectly reflect character strength (I very much doubt Krosan Cloudscraper could actually fight Ulamog or Kozilek at all).
Power/toughness is reliable once you stay within a block's setting. They become wonky when you start looking at cards in the scope of the entirety of Magic. Think about it: a guy on Theros that's say a 5/5 would probably be a 1/1 on any other world because he no longer has the blessings of the gods affecting him. Maybe a 13/13 on Krosa is what happens when you have all that richKrosan mana flowing through you, but once you take it out of its ecosystem it loses all that boosted up strength.
We was turned into a demon by the chain veil curse. It was not shapeshifting like Sarkhan turning into a dragon, but actually changing what he was into something that is considered a Demon to the game.
Really? When was that established?
Duels of the Planeswalkers 2015 has Garruk slowly being transformed into a demon. Ob Nixilis was a previous owner of the Chain Veil and underwent the same transformation.
Garruk is a neowalker. It seems like Ob was an oldwalker when he got stranded on Zendikar. There is no way the Veil would hold that kind of power over an oldwalker and not blow up Liliana on the spot after Mending. The power scales just don't match.
Then again, perhaps I should not expect consistency from a character that had three sentences of back story before he became popular.
Garruk is a neowalker. It seems like Ob was an oldwalker when he got stranded on Zendikar. There is no way the Veil would hold that kind of power over an oldwalker and not blow up Liliana on the spot after Mending. The power scales just don't match.
Then again, perhaps I should not expect consistency from a character that had three sentences of back story before he became popular.
We don't know if the Veil was controlling him. We know that the power contained in it slowly transforms the person into a demon. He could've been in complete control of himself as far as we know, but slowly became a demon.
Remember, it's not regaining some semblance of his sanity that made Garruk's transformation recede, but actually getting that power sealed away.
One of the following:
* the All-Consuming Oni of Chaos
* Ob Nixilis
* Whichever unnamed demon Liliana is planning to take down last, from the four she made pacts with (Griselbrand was just #2).
I'm tempted to toss my vote in for The All-Consuming Oni of Chaos, but I'd have to say my vote goes to the All-Consuming Oni after Hidetsugu merged with it (since, before that, it was taken down by O-Kagachi and Hidetsugu sought it out for vengeance).
How would Griselbrands card abilities factor into determining his power?
I know he may not be as physically strong as Withengar but his other abilities should count for something.
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Probably not.
One of the following:
* the All-Consuming Oni of Chaos
* Ob Nixilis
* Whichever unnamed demon Liliana is planning to take down last, from the four she made pacts with (Griselbrand was just #2).
Griselbrand was certainly strong enough to need Avacyn sacrificing herself to stop him the first time. His essence still exist on the plane and will eventually take form again.
When Liliana killed him, it was more because The Chain Veil is stupidly strong, not that he was weak.
Withengar (Withengar Unbound) is probably more powerful than Griselbrand, but he doesn't have a story focus. Power-wise, he's the strongest Demon in the game. Story-wise, he's the guy who killed Saint Traft (Geist of Saint Traft)
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I assume Liliana's going after her demons in order of least powerful to most, although that's not confirmed.
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Remember, in Ob we trust.
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We was turned into a demon by the chain veil curse. It was not shapeshifting like Sarkhan turning into a dragon, but actually changing what he was into something that is considered a Demon to the game.
I didn't read the original poster as requiring only "true mana-construct demons" to be ranked.
Yeah, I could see Withengar being stronger than Griselbrand - both being demons so strong someone had to make a sacrifice and bound them rather than let their essence be free.
But just remember card stats doesn't always perfectly reflect character strength (I very much doubt Krosan Cloudscraper could actually fight Ulamog or Kozilek at all).
Well that's true. Ludevic's Abomination probably couldn't take either of them.
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How about Ob's original patron/patrons? They scoured an entire plane clean of life.
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"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
I don't know if Griselbrand's essence will reform as the other demons had when Avacyn killed them. Lilliana and the Chain Veil are extra-planar and he was said to have been destroyed utterly and presumably permanently. If he does return though, he won't be the same demon anyway I suppose but I have a feeling he will not, being killed by a force foreign to the plane and quite powerful at that.
Withgenger is an interesting contender, but I doubt he is more powerful than Girselbrand. Withgenger was successfully sealed after all, so someone had effectively defeated him. And presumably before the time of Avacyn too, since he was sealed in an artifact and not the Helvault.
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Withengar is an interesting example. The story which features him suggests that demons on Innistrad come back as themselves if destroyed. So if Griselbrand isn't dead (although I think creative has been clear that he's gone) he'll come back and know exactly what happened.
We don't know exactly what happened to Withengar to result in him being bound so I don't know if its fair to say being bound means he's less powerful than Griselbrand. Currently he seems likely to be the top demon on Innistrad. I mean even while bound he was powerful enough to either control St Traft or completely deceive his senses.
Demons on Innistrad reform as new demons, not as the same. There will be no return of Griselbrand.
I agree that Griselbrand is gone but the lore isn't clear about whether or not they come back as the same demon. Withengar is destroyed by angels in The Saint, the Geist, and the Angel and the expectation is clearly that Withengar specifically is going to return eventually.
So in chronological order, it's:
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath -> Ob Nixilis, the Fallen -> Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
Obsy becomes a Planeswalker after Demons kill all life on his home plane (That's 'Black Oath') and at some point becomes cursed by the Chain Veil and turns into a Demon. He becomes trapped on Zendikar (it's unclear if Zendikar or the Chain Veil is responsible for the loss of his Spark, but 'The Fallen's' Flavor Text implies he at least believes it was Zendikar). Nahiri implants the hedron in his Forehead and significantly reduces his power ('The Fallen') until the unnamed planeswalker from DOTP 2014 removes it to stop Garruk, at which point he becomes 'Unshackled'.
I assume we won't have to wait long to find out what happens to him next, since we're returning to Zendikar in the fall.
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The main source is beginning of Dreams of the Damned.
Power/toughness is reliable once you stay within a block's setting. They become wonky when you start looking at cards in the scope of the entirety of Magic. Think about it: a guy on Theros that's say a 5/5 would probably be a 1/1 on any other world because he no longer has the blessings of the gods affecting him. Maybe a 13/13 on Krosa is what happens when you have all that rich Krosan mana flowing through you, but once you take it out of its ecosystem it loses all that boosted up strength.
Duels of the Planeswalkers 2015 has Garruk slowly being transformed into a demon. Ob Nixilis was a previous owner of the Chain Veil and underwent the same transformation.
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Isn't Liliana also a pre-mending walker?
We don't know if the Veil was controlling him. We know that the power contained in it slowly transforms the person into a demon. He could've been in complete control of himself as far as we know, but slowly became a demon.
Remember, it's not regaining some semblance of his sanity that made Garruk's transformation recede, but actually getting that power sealed away.
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I'm tempted to toss my vote in for The All-Consuming Oni of Chaos, but I'd have to say my vote goes to the All-Consuming Oni after Hidetsugu merged with it (since, before that, it was taken down by O-Kagachi and Hidetsugu sought it out for vengeance).
I know he may not be as physically strong as Withengar but his other abilities should count for something.