I created this thread because I was thinking about Ugin and his connection to the plane of Tarkir and I realized that there are some holes in my knowledge and understanding of how Ugin interacts with the world... and about how his very existence is possible.
For example we know that Ugin is a native of Tarkir. We also know, that Dragons on Tarkir are born from the dragon tempests (so dragon eggs for example don't exist on Tarkir) so it should follow that Ugin, as a dragon, is born from one of the tempests... except that the wiki states that the dragons stormed are CAUSED due to Ugin's transmutation magic. Also, Ugin looks nothing like any of the dragons from the broods formed by the storms. So my confusion is, how could Ugin even exist? I'm probably simply missing something but I can't say as to what. Would anyone be willing to help me out?
Ugin is an Elder Dragon. This is more or less suggested (confirmed?) by the Planeswalker Guide to Fate Reforged, where his battle with Bolas is called the 'Battle of the Elder Dragons'. Because he is put on equal footing with Bolas, it can be assumed his 'Elder Dragon' status has the same origin (and that's different from the new elder dragons we now have on Dragons of Tarkir).
This is not necessarily true.
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Ugin and Nicol Bolas are certainly both "elder" in the little-e sense of "very old." We haven't talked internally about whether Ugin was involved in that particular war that killed lots and lots of dragons on Dominaria long ago, so I would hesitate to either confirm it or rule it out here.
It's at best unclear, and given that we've already established "elder" has a completely different meaning in terms of Tarkir, I'd lean towards "he's old but not a True Elder like Bolas".
We know shockingly little about Ugin except that his is a powerful aetherial being, at least several thousand years old (6000 years ago Sorin described him, hyperbolically, as being "as old as time"), that looks like a dragon and goes by the name Ugin. He identifies Tarkir as his home but never confirms he was born there. Everything else is speculation. His body is laid out a lot like Bolas's which lead to speculation that he might also be an Elder Dragon. The waters have been muddied a bit recently with new Elder Dragons that have no relation to the originals but are Ugin's "children".
Ugin is an Elder Dragon. This is more or less suggested (confirmed?) by the Planeswalker Guide to Fate Reforged, where his battle with Bolas is called the 'Battle of the Elder Dragons'. Because he is put on equal footing with Bolas, it can be assumed his 'Elder Dragon' status has the same origin (and that's different from the new elder dragons we now have on Dragons of Tarkir).
Why do people keep repeating this nonsense from the PW guide when it was officially explained by Doug Beyer?
Ugin is an Elder Dragon. This is more or less suggested (confirmed?) by the Planeswalker Guide to Fate Reforged, where his battle with Bolas is called the 'Battle of the Elder Dragons'. Because he is put on equal footing with Bolas, it can be assumed his 'Elder Dragon' status has the same origin (and that's different from the new elder dragons we now have on Dragons of Tarkir).
Why do people keep repeating this nonsense from the PW guide when it was officially explained by Doug Beyer?
Because the average player who reads the Mothership's articles, and expects it to be an official and legitimate source about Magic: The Gathering various aspects, is not supposed to know he has to parse through other employees and contributor's private blogs to get erratas and rectifications.
Ugin is an Elder Dragon. This is more or less suggested (confirmed?) by the Planeswalker Guide to Fate Reforged, where his battle with Bolas is called the 'Battle of the Elder Dragons'. Because he is put on equal footing with Bolas, it can be assumed his 'Elder Dragon' status has the same origin (and that's different from the new elder dragons we now have on Dragons of Tarkir).
Why do people keep repeating this nonsense from the PW guide when it was officially explained by Doug Beyer?
Because the average player who reads the Mothership's articles, and expects it to be an official and legitimate source about Magic: The Gathering various aspects, is not supposed to know he has to parse through other employees and contributor's private blogs to get erratas and rectifications.
I'm just trying to reconcile something that looks like a legitimate plot hole. The last time I saw something like this; it was Claymore and that plot hole actually turned out to be a hint to the overall darker hidden truth of the story. I'm just trying to make sense of the fact that based on what we know... it doesn't seem like Ugin can exist.
I'm just trying to reconcile something that looks like a legitimate plot hole. The last time I saw something like this; it was Claymore and that plot hole actually turned out to be a hint to the overall darker hidden truth of the story. I'm just trying to make sense of the fact that based on what we know... it doesn't seem like Ugin can exist.
You're assuming that the only way a dragon can come into existence is from a dragon tempest, which is unjustified and a bit silly.
I'm saying that based on what we know about TARKIR it seems like that's the only way a dragon can exist on the plane.
Ugin is nothing like the other dragons on Tarkir and even if he were born on Tarkir (which hasn't been confirmed) its unlikely his birth was anything like the dragons we know.
Besides your argument is true of everything. Chickens are only born from chickens but there was once a time without chickens, ergo chickens are logically impossible. The reality is the the premise "chickens are only born from chickens" is false just as "dragons on Tarkir can only come from dragon tempests" is false.
Oh lord Vorthos you are not only completely misrepresenting the point but using false equivalency to a point that if I didn't know your post history I'd say was trolling. The chicken and egg thing is completely not even close to what I'm discussing here and you know it but I hope it made your day to get that poorly thought out idea trotted out in a post.
I'm aware that Ugin is very different from all the dragons we've seen on Tarkir. That's the whole point of my question. With what information I have, the situation makes no sense. Apparently your reading comprehension needs work so I'll reiterate the actual question. What am I missing? There is obviously something here that makes this NOT a plot hole but based on the data I have Ugin shouldn't exist. I'm out right admitting my data is incomplete but I'm wondering if anyone has anything extra I don't. Maro has said that the cosmology of Tarkir takes the egg thing out of the equation so I'm asking is there anything else that's been covered that I don't know about?
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Oh lord Vorthos you are not only completely misrepresenting the point but using false equivalency to a point that if I didn't know your post history I'd say was trolling. The chicken and egg thing is completely not even close to what I'm discussing here and you know it but I hope it made your day to get that poorly thought out idea trotted out in a post.
I'm aware that Ugin is very different from all the dragons we've seen on Tarkir. That's the whole point of my question. With what information I have, the situation makes no sense. Apparently your reading comprehension needs work so I'll reiterate the actual question. What am I missing? There is obviously something here that makes this NOT a plot hole but based on the data I have Ugin shouldn't exist. I'm out right admitting my data is incomplete but I'm wondering if anyone has anything extra I don't. Maro has said that the cosmology of Tarkir takes the egg thing out of the equation so I'm asking is there anything else that's been covered that I don't know about?
You're missing the fact that Ugin isn't like the other dragons on Tarkir (which you stated in the OP but missed the importance of). He's an Elder Dragon (an original one, not one of the Tarkir retcon knockoffs), which means he was probably born the same way that other Elder Dragons were.
I mean yea, we probably should not be discussing his origins. We know not nearly enough about the multiverse and its plausibility to say that he could not have created Tarkir or lost his memory or that there used to be other dragons like him on tarkir who were all walkers and all left but him because he felt dutybound to the plane, etc. This could go anywhere and everywhere. (almost)What we do know is that he considers Tarkir his home plane and atm that is all that should matter.
Edit: and that he is very old and very powerful and very whatever that guy said in the Q/A
Oh lord Vorthos you are not only completely misrepresenting the point but using false equivalency to a point that if I didn't know your post history I'd say was trolling. The chicken and egg thing is completely not even close to what I'm discussing here and you know it but I hope it made your day to get that poorly thought out idea trotted out in a post.
I'm aware that Ugin is very different from all the dragons we've seen on Tarkir. That's the whole point of my question. With what information I have, the situation makes no sense. Apparently your reading comprehension needs work so I'll reiterate the actual question. What am I missing? There is obviously something here that makes this NOT a plot hole but based on the data I have Ugin shouldn't exist. I'm out right admitting my data is incomplete but I'm wondering if anyone has anything extra I don't. Maro has said that the cosmology of Tarkir takes the egg thing out of the equation so I'm asking is there anything else that's been covered that I don't know about?
You're missing the fact that Ugin isn't like the other dragons on Tarkir (which you stated in the OP but missed the importance of). He's an Elder Dragon (an original one, not one of the Tarkir retcon knockoffs), which means he was probably born the same way that other Elder Dragons were.
I love how everyone seems to enjoy saying things that aren't necessarily true.
1. The creative team has NOT said that Ugin is an Elder dragon. In fact they've gone out of their way to say otherwise.
2. The other elder dragons started off as brood leaders that we can infer WERE born from the dragon tempests based on their affinity for the specific terrain since we're told that the dragon leaders came AFTER the storms AND have specific territories with specific terrain. They became elder dragons through both aging into the role and consolidating their power. They are elder with a lower case E as opposed to Elder with a capital one.
As for the argument "We don't know Ugin was born" that would fly if we didn't know that there has to be an origin for beings like this especially planeswalkers.
Since it's become apparent nobody actually has an answer I'll kindly request a mod lock and delete the thread.
I created this thread because I was thinking about Ugin and his connection to the plane of Tarkir and I realized that there are some holes in my knowledge and understanding of how Ugin interacts with the world... and about how his very existence is possible.
For example we know that Ugin is a native of Tarkir. We also know, that Dragons on Tarkir are born from the dragon tempests (so dragon eggs for example don't exist on Tarkir) so it should follow that Ugin, as a dragon, is born from one of the tempests... except that the wiki states that the dragons stormed are CAUSED due to Ugin's transmutation magic. Also, Ugin looks nothing like any of the dragons from the broods formed by the storms. So my confusion is, how could Ugin even exist? I'm probably simply missing something but I can't say as to what. Would anyone be willing to help me out?
Source here.
Also note that Doug is wrong; the Elder Dragon War did not take place on Dominaria, but spanned across multiple planes.
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Why do people keep repeating this nonsense from the PW guide when it was officially explained by Doug Beyer?
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/108287169989/i-noticed-that-in-the-planeswalkers-guide-to-fate
Note the "not confirm or rule out" part...
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Because the average player who reads the Mothership's articles, and expects it to be an official and legitimate source about Magic: The Gathering various aspects, is not supposed to know he has to parse through other employees and contributor's private blogs to get erratas and rectifications.
Yeah they really screwed up on that front.
You're assuming that the only way a dragon can come into existence is from a dragon tempest, which is unjustified and a bit silly.
Ugin is nothing like the other dragons on Tarkir and even if he were born on Tarkir (which hasn't been confirmed) its unlikely his birth was anything like the dragons we know.
Besides your argument is true of everything. Chickens are only born from chickens but there was once a time without chickens, ergo chickens are logically impossible. The reality is the the premise "chickens are only born from chickens" is false just as "dragons on Tarkir can only come from dragon tempests" is false.
I'm aware that Ugin is very different from all the dragons we've seen on Tarkir. That's the whole point of my question. With what information I have, the situation makes no sense. Apparently your reading comprehension needs work so I'll reiterate the actual question. What am I missing? There is obviously something here that makes this NOT a plot hole but based on the data I have Ugin shouldn't exist. I'm out right admitting my data is incomplete but I'm wondering if anyone has anything extra I don't. Maro has said that the cosmology of Tarkir takes the egg thing out of the equation so I'm asking is there anything else that's been covered that I don't know about?
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Common sense.
Moderator Action: Warning for Trolling
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~kaburi
You're missing the fact that Ugin isn't like the other dragons on Tarkir (which you stated in the OP but missed the importance of). He's an Elder Dragon (an original one, not one of the Tarkir retcon knockoffs), which means he was probably born the same way that other Elder Dragons were.
Edit: and that he is very old and very powerful and very whatever that guy said in the Q/A
I love how everyone seems to enjoy saying things that aren't necessarily true.
1. The creative team has NOT said that Ugin is an Elder dragon. In fact they've gone out of their way to say otherwise.
2. The other elder dragons started off as brood leaders that we can infer WERE born from the dragon tempests based on their affinity for the specific terrain since we're told that the dragon leaders came AFTER the storms AND have specific territories with specific terrain. They became elder dragons through both aging into the role and consolidating their power. They are elder with a lower case E as opposed to Elder with a capital one.
As for the argument "We don't know Ugin was born" that would fly if we didn't know that there has to be an origin for beings like this especially planeswalkers.
Since it's become apparent nobody actually has an answer I'll kindly request a mod lock and delete the thread.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!