I think it's becoming a little clearer with the spoiled cards that things aren't as honky dory on Tarkir 1.1 as the dragonlords would like it to be. 1,280 years after their edict for the clans to do away with significant parts of their identity, to not say khan or clan or mention their past or die and whatnot, and it seems that there are still 'rebels' of some kind. As far as flavor for evidence, there's Anafenza's new flavor text: "They tortured her for honoring her ancestors; now she walks among them." Then there's Hidden Dragonslayer, and one would assume people in Tarkir 1.1 shouldn't be killing dragons, since that was the basis of the 'peace'. There's also Arashin Foremost, flavor text "I would gladly give my life if it would inspire my clan to victory," which is strange because I thought the word 'clan' was outlawed as a concept, and instead they just followed the dragonlords. I think this is probably a result of Daghatar's UR where he was told all the Abzan would not agree with his actions and would split off and refuse to bend the knee. Which seems to show these rebels survived 1,280 years of attempts to get rid of them.
Arashin Sovereign's flavor text implies that other clans are dealing with rebellion as well, if not often, then on a regular basis: "Dromoka dragons foster trust among their subjects, while the other clans must spend their time quelling rebellion."
If all the dragonlords weren't continuing to be tyrannical over humans to some degree after the events of FRF until DTK, or at least generally being a bunch of bigtime jerks, why would rebellion continue to survive 1,280 years without being finally wiped out? They have to get new recruits for rebellion somewhere.
Until we get the UR's for DTK, we can't be 100% sure, but it seems pretty apparent to me that things aren't perfect under the wings of the dragonlords, and that now Tarkir has gone to the opposite extreme from Tarkir 1.0 (except that humans are still alive instead of extinct).
Yes, but if someone gets into your house, tells you what to do under the threat of capital punishment and then justifies their actions by saying "well, your life wasn't perfect before I came either" then you'd also prefer the way before, wouldn't you?
Also, what I find pretty strange is that Anafenza has the dragon clan water mark, even though she is a rebel and is associated with kin-trees, even though they shouldn't exist under the Dromoka rule?
Looks like the URs and the card flavour don't line up that well.
Yes, but if someone gets into your house, tells you what to do under the threat of capital punishment and then justifies their actions by saying "well, your life wasn't perfect before I came either" then you'd also prefer the way before, wouldn't you?
Not if I'd been living under threat of death already, which they were. On old-Tarkir either you join a clan and obey its khan or you leave to die in the wilderness. So far nothing says that people are forbidden to leave the dragon broods. It strikes me as a lateral move from one absolute authority to another.
Yes, but if someone gets into your house, tells you what to do under the threat of capital punishment and then justifies their actions by saying "well, your life wasn't perfect before I came either" then you'd also prefer the way before, wouldn't you?
Not if I'd been living under threat of death already, which they were. On old-Tarkir either you join a clan and obey its khan or you leave to die in the wilderness. So far nothing says that people are forbidden to leave the dragon broods. It strikes me as a lateral move from one absolute authority to another.
Basically the thing is that the life standard of the humans didn't change much, but now their fate isn't even in their own hands.
The Abzan used to rule the clan through a system of families, but now the dragons are at the top. The Jeskai rulers could be reasoned with, but now Ojutai is, well, a dragon and doesn't have the interests of non-dragons in mind. Mardu could at least challenge their Khan for leadership, try to do that with a dragon. And the Temur probably only followed their Khan, because they prove themselves. All that has been taken away by the dragons.
Just remember what the Mardu did when they grew unhappy with Zurgo's leadership. They just left him and presumably got a new Khan. If they turned their back on Kolaghan, they'd just be toast within seconds. The people on Tarkir no longer have the choice. They're slaves! This is probably the biggest irony, because Sarkhan himself was a slave of a dragon himself and still seems to seek subordinance. Good job, Sarkhan, didn't Ugin tell you to be your own person? Now you enslaved a whole plane. *slow clap*
I think the awakening of Ugin will shed some light with regards to what the future of Tarkir is, but there's definitely been a shift for the worse with regards to several of the clans.
There is that calm look on her face in contrast to her Khans incarnation. Also why is she holding her sword like that? Did it got dull like Zurgo's did.
Basically the thing is that the life standard of the humans didn't change much, but now their fate isn't even in their own hands.
The only people who's fate has been taken out of their hands are the Khans. If its a species thing note that Sidsi and Zurgo weren't human either and the Abzan used to be largely ruled by a spirit that lived in a club.
The Abzan used to rule the clan through a system of families, but now the dragons are at the top.
What? The Abzan system of government used to be "the Khan is the supreme military, religious, and legal authority and the families may say their piece." Now the Abzan system system of government is "the Dragonlord is the supreme military, religious, and legal authority and the families may say their piece."
Mardu could at least challenge their Khan for leadership, try to do that with a dragon.
Kolghan is intelligent. Who says you can't challenge her? I mean sure, you'd lose, but being able to win was never the point. Unless you think that all Mardu weaker than Zurgo or Alesha were "slaves".
Its almost as if for the small folk, it doesn't really matter what lord sits the throne, they still have to rake ***** for a living and die in wars that don't benefit them.
If I remember the conversation from the UR thread, one side of this conversation basically boiled down to "Wow, Dromoka is surprisingly reasonable, I thought she would do a lot worse than ask the Abzan to give up necromancy." and the other side was "No, its evil and genocidal." Why can't both sides be kind of right? Can't the dragon lords all be kind of *****ty and yet still be really no worse than the Khans for the most part? Are the Mardu really worse being led by a marauding murderous dragon than a marauding, murderous warlord? Are the Abzan worse off being led by a rigid dictator that bans necromancy than by a slightly less rigid dictator and a society that binds the souls of the dead to eternal servitude? Are the Jeskai worse off under an enlightened dragon teacher than an enlightened human one? Are the Temur worse off hunting in the mountains on behalf of dragons than they were hiding in the mountains from the other clans? Are the Sultai worse off under a cruel, greedy dragon who abuses them and makes zombies than they were under nagas, humans, and cat demons that did the exact same crap? It sucked under the khans, it sucks under the dragons, and it sucked when there was balance. Some people expected the dragons to be worse and were surprised when it turned out to be a lateral shift.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Its almost as if for the small folk, it doesn't really matter what lord sits the throne, they still have to rake ***** for a living and die in wars that don't benefit them.
If I remember the conversation from the UR thread, one side of this conversation basically boiled down to "Wow, Dromoka is surprisingly reasonable, I thought she would do a lot worse than ask the Abzan to give up necromancy." and the other side was "No, its evil and genocidal." Why can't both sides be kind of right? Can't the dragon lords all be kind of *****ty and yet still be really no worse than the Khans for the most part? Are the Mardu really worse being led by a marauding murderous dragon than a marauding, murderous warlord? Are the Abzan worse off being led by a rigid dictator that bans necromancy than by a slightly less rigid dictator and a society that binds the souls of the dead to eternal servitude? Are the Jeskai worse off under an enlightened dragon teacher than an enlightened human one? Are the Temur worse off hunting in the mountains on behalf of dragons than they were hiding in the mountains from the other clans? Are the Sultai worse off under a cruel, greedy dragon who abuses them and makes zombies than they were under nagas, humans, and cat demons that did the exact same crap? It sucked under the khans, it sucks under the dragons, and it sucked when there was balance. Some people expected the dragons to be worse and were surprised when it turned out to be a lateral shift.
This^^ And to be fair the Dragons allowed the clans to join with them. The khans didn't even give the dragons that much. The biggest thing is Ugin is alive and will be a good help to fight the Eldrazi.
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The non-draconic races as a whole no longer have a say in their own fate. The khans of the Abzan had the people's interests in mind, because they were one of them. Now they are led by a huge dragon that either doesn't care about human(oid) interests or is not even able to wrap their heads around the needs of little balls of fur with voices.
Also, the Abzan were only led by the club-spirit (what was its name?) because they chose to. It was their culture. I don't agree with it, but at least the population wasn't enslaved by the spirits. They could (and did!) abandon the spirits at any time.
The humanoid races are literally at the whims of the dragons. Yes, the life of the individual might not have changed much (and I would say that not even this is true) but the entire population is now nothing more than servants. Just look at the Temur. The Temur as a whole were free people. They did what they wanted and/or needed to do to survive. Now they are quite literally waiters for Atarka's brood.
You are saying that living as a slave under the constant threat of death is not different at all from living life as a more or less free citizen under the constant threat of death. And I don't agree with that at all.
Hmmmm hopefully the UR will answer this but why does anafenza have a dromoka symbol? Like if she was killed for doing something that was outlawed by dromoka why would she fight with the brood?
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You are saying that living as a slave under the constant threat of death is not different at all from living life as a more or less free citizen under the constant threat of death. And I don't agree with that at all.
Except most of them weren't more or less free citizens. I don't know why you can't see that not much has changed. We know that there really weren't unaligned humanoids under the Khans, because without a clan you'd be good as dead. You could leave one clan to join another, but there isn't anything saying this changed under the dragons. And the Abzan didn't care about their people as individuals, only about the clan as a whole. Not much different than how you paint Dromoka.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
The more jarring thing to me is that apparently there are still kin-trees.
After 1280 years...
Some trees have been known to have exceptionally long life spans. All it'd need is to be in some isolated place where Dromoka's goons couldn't get to it (like at an oasis among other trees) and it could thrive.
The more jarring thing to me is that apparently there are still kin-trees.
After 1280 years...
many Redwoods are around 2.000 years old, and the longest living organism (albeit a fungus) is over 6,000.
As to Anafenza's symbol, just because she worshiped her ancestors doesn't mean she doesn't want to continue to help protect her people...Curious though how Dromoka see's spirits that persist through death without being brought back from the dead without necromantic magic being used.
eh i'd say the dragons, the clans, and the world as a whole are light years better off than they were with one entire species totally extinct the dragons would have to do a whole heck of a lot of killing to tip the balance away from that.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The non-draconic races as a whole no longer have a say in their own fate. The khans of the Abzan had the people's interests in mind, because they were one of them. Now they are led by a huge dragon that either doesn't care about human(oid) interests or is not even able to wrap their heads around the needs of little balls of fur with voices.
I believe that good governance is good governance. So far the actual ruling of the clans seems perfectly competent. It doesn't seem like anyone fails to recognize non-dragons as full members of the clan, both Ojutai and Dromoka are obviously capable of understanding. Are the worse off than an orc krumar living with the Abzan? Not only did the Abzan not understand Mardu culture they were actively hostile to it.
Also, the Abzan were only led by the club-spirit (what was its name?) because they chose to. I don't agree with it, but at least the population wasn't enslaved by the spirits. They could (and did!) abandon the spirits at any time.
It's not clear that anyone but the Khan knew the spirit existed but that's sort of beside the point. The population did not choose to reject the spirit, their absolute dictator made that decision for them. Remember, Daghatar had the power to ban his people's entire religion on a whim. All Abzan served at his pleasure and his alone.
Yes, the life of the individual might not have changed much (and I would say that not even this is true) but the entire population is now nothing more than servants.
I don't see how they're servants any more than they were before. (You're right that the Atarka might be but so far all we've seen is a few minutes from 1280 years ago, I hope we get more information soon.) I suppose I fail to see how humanoids are worse off as servants to dicatorial dragons who sort of care about them than they were to dicatorial humans who sort of cared about them.
The Temur as a whole were free people. They did what they wanted and/or needed to do to survive. Now they are quite literally waiters for Atarka's brood.
If you believe that the Abzan chose to reject the spirit then why don't you believe the Temur chose to survive by feeding Atarka's brood?
You are saying that living as a slave under the constant threat of death is not different at all from living life as a more or less free citizen under the constant threat of death. And I don't agree with that at all.
You're assuming that the relevant difference is whether we call them "slaves" or "citizens" and not whether or not they have any rights or self determination.
The more jarring thing to me is that apparently there are still kin-trees.
After 1280 years...
many Redwoods are around 2.000 years old, and the longest living organism (albeit a fungus) is over 6,000.
Oh, I'm not talking about the age of the tree. I'd actually expect a tree that houses spirits of ancestors to never die of an old age. (Because that'd be incredibly awkward some thousand years in.)
However, I find it weird that these kin-trees have not been detected and uprooted for over a millenium. 1280 is so much time and there's not many places you can hide a tree in a desert.
As to Anafenza's symbol, just because she worshiped her ancestors doesn't mean she doesn't want to continue to help protect her people...Curious though how Dromoka see's spirits that persist through death without being brought back from the dead without necromantic magic being used.
Usually, when you have factions, especially in a medium like Magic, you want to communicate these factions as loud and clear as possible. Having fuzzy edges kind of breaks the whole idea of factions. From a storytelling perspective I like it, because it makes the world feel bigger, but if I look at the card and see the Dromoka watermark it just feels weird. But then again, I don't like the idea of watermarks in general, exactly because of this reason.
gotcha, I'm sure some have protected their trees/seeds/saplings over the centuries, either planting them at random througout the world or within Dormoka territory, or just the main trees were destroyed and the younger ones that didn't have spirits attached to them were allowed to survive. I'm sure we will get a UR on it.
Is that not a Kin Tree on top of what looks like one of the Abzan Rolling Fortresses on the art of Arashin Sovereign?
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Arashin Sovereign's flavor text implies that other clans are dealing with rebellion as well, if not often, then on a regular basis: "Dromoka dragons foster trust among their subjects, while the other clans must spend their time quelling rebellion."
If all the dragonlords weren't continuing to be tyrannical over humans to some degree after the events of FRF until DTK, or at least generally being a bunch of bigtime jerks, why would rebellion continue to survive 1,280 years without being finally wiped out? They have to get new recruits for rebellion somewhere.
Until we get the UR's for DTK, we can't be 100% sure, but it seems pretty apparent to me that things aren't perfect under the wings of the dragonlords, and that now Tarkir has gone to the opposite extreme from Tarkir 1.0 (except that humans are still alive instead of extinct).
/sarcasm
Anafenza's flavor text
Your mods are terrified of me.
Things weren't 100% perfect on Tarkir 1.0 either. So what?
Also, what I find pretty strange is that Anafenza has the dragon clan water mark, even though she is a rebel and is associated with kin-trees, even though they shouldn't exist under the Dromoka rule?
Looks like the URs and the card flavour don't line up that well.
Not if I'd been living under threat of death already, which they were. On old-Tarkir either you join a clan and obey its khan or you leave to die in the wilderness. So far nothing says that people are forbidden to leave the dragon broods. It strikes me as a lateral move from one absolute authority to another.
Basically the thing is that the life standard of the humans didn't change much, but now their fate isn't even in their own hands.
The Abzan used to rule the clan through a system of families, but now the dragons are at the top. The Jeskai rulers could be reasoned with, but now Ojutai is, well, a dragon and doesn't have the interests of non-dragons in mind. Mardu could at least challenge their Khan for leadership, try to do that with a dragon. And the Temur probably only followed their Khan, because they prove themselves. All that has been taken away by the dragons.
Just remember what the Mardu did when they grew unhappy with Zurgo's leadership. They just left him and presumably got a new Khan. If they turned their back on Kolaghan, they'd just be toast within seconds. The people on Tarkir no longer have the choice. They're slaves! This is probably the biggest irony, because Sarkhan himself was a slave of a dragon himself and still seems to seek subordinance. Good job, Sarkhan, didn't Ugin tell you to be your own person? Now you enslaved a whole plane. *slow clap*
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There is that calm look on her face in contrast to her Khans incarnation. Also why is she holding her sword like that? Did it got dull like Zurgo's did.
The only people who's fate has been taken out of their hands are the Khans. If its a species thing note that Sidsi and Zurgo weren't human either and the Abzan used to be largely ruled by a spirit that lived in a club.
What? The Abzan system of government used to be "the Khan is the supreme military, religious, and legal authority and the families may say their piece." Now the Abzan system system of government is "the Dragonlord is the supreme military, religious, and legal authority and the families may say their piece."
As much as I dislike Ojutai I don't think this is true. He has adopted the other races as part of his brood.
Kolghan is intelligent. Who says you can't challenge her? I mean sure, you'd lose, but being able to win was never the point. Unless you think that all Mardu weaker than Zurgo or Alesha were "slaves".
You don't think Atarka has proven herself to be a powerful warrior? The Temur idolized Atarka's might in the original timeline as well.
There's no evidence you can't leave and join another clan in Tarkir 1.1, I already brought that up.
They're feudal lords and serfs, exactly like they were before.
If I remember the conversation from the UR thread, one side of this conversation basically boiled down to "Wow, Dromoka is surprisingly reasonable, I thought she would do a lot worse than ask the Abzan to give up necromancy." and the other side was "No, its evil and genocidal." Why can't both sides be kind of right? Can't the dragon lords all be kind of *****ty and yet still be really no worse than the Khans for the most part? Are the Mardu really worse being led by a marauding murderous dragon than a marauding, murderous warlord? Are the Abzan worse off being led by a rigid dictator that bans necromancy than by a slightly less rigid dictator and a society that binds the souls of the dead to eternal servitude? Are the Jeskai worse off under an enlightened dragon teacher than an enlightened human one? Are the Temur worse off hunting in the mountains on behalf of dragons than they were hiding in the mountains from the other clans? Are the Sultai worse off under a cruel, greedy dragon who abuses them and makes zombies than they were under nagas, humans, and cat demons that did the exact same crap? It sucked under the khans, it sucks under the dragons, and it sucked when there was balance. Some people expected the dragons to be worse and were surprised when it turned out to be a lateral shift.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
This^^ And to be fair the Dragons allowed the clans to join with them. The khans didn't even give the dragons that much. The biggest thing is Ugin is alive and will be a good help to fight the Eldrazi.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The non-draconic races as a whole no longer have a say in their own fate. The khans of the Abzan had the people's interests in mind, because they were one of them. Now they are led by a huge dragon that either doesn't care about human(oid) interests or is not even able to wrap their heads around the needs of little balls of fur with voices.
Also, the Abzan were only led by the club-spirit (what was its name?) because they chose to. It was their culture. I don't agree with it, but at least the population wasn't enslaved by the spirits. They could (and did!) abandon the spirits at any time.
The humanoid races are literally at the whims of the dragons. Yes, the life of the individual might not have changed much (and I would say that not even this is true) but the entire population is now nothing more than servants. Just look at the Temur. The Temur as a whole were free people. They did what they wanted and/or needed to do to survive. Now they are quite literally waiters for Atarka's brood.
You are saying that living as a slave under the constant threat of death is not different at all from living life as a more or less free citizen under the constant threat of death. And I don't agree with that at all.
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
After 1280 years...
Except most of them weren't more or less free citizens. I don't know why you can't see that not much has changed. We know that there really weren't unaligned humanoids under the Khans, because without a clan you'd be good as dead. You could leave one clan to join another, but there isn't anything saying this changed under the dragons. And the Abzan didn't care about their people as individuals, only about the clan as a whole. Not much different than how you paint Dromoka.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Some trees have been known to have exceptionally long life spans. All it'd need is to be in some isolated place where Dromoka's goons couldn't get to it (like at an oasis among other trees) and it could thrive.
Your mods are terrified of me.
many Redwoods are around 2.000 years old, and the longest living organism (albeit a fungus) is over 6,000.
As to Anafenza's symbol, just because she worshiped her ancestors doesn't mean she doesn't want to continue to help protect her people...Curious though how Dromoka see's spirits that persist through death without being brought back from the dead without necromantic magic being used.
I believe that good governance is good governance. So far the actual ruling of the clans seems perfectly competent. It doesn't seem like anyone fails to recognize non-dragons as full members of the clan, both Ojutai and Dromoka are obviously capable of understanding. Are the worse off than an orc krumar living with the Abzan? Not only did the Abzan not understand Mardu culture they were actively hostile to it.
It's not clear that anyone but the Khan knew the spirit existed but that's sort of beside the point. The population did not choose to reject the spirit, their absolute dictator made that decision for them. Remember, Daghatar had the power to ban his people's entire religion on a whim. All Abzan served at his pleasure and his alone.
I don't see how they're servants any more than they were before. (You're right that the Atarka might be but so far all we've seen is a few minutes from 1280 years ago, I hope we get more information soon.) I suppose I fail to see how humanoids are worse off as servants to dicatorial dragons who sort of care about them than they were to dicatorial humans who sort of cared about them.
If you believe that the Abzan chose to reject the spirit then why don't you believe the Temur chose to survive by feeding Atarka's brood?
You're assuming that the relevant difference is whether we call them "slaves" or "citizens" and not whether or not they have any rights or self determination.
Oh, I'm not talking about the age of the tree. I'd actually expect a tree that houses spirits of ancestors to never die of an old age. (Because that'd be incredibly awkward some thousand years in.)
However, I find it weird that these kin-trees have not been detected and uprooted for over a millenium. 1280 is so much time and there's not many places you can hide a tree in a desert.
Usually, when you have factions, especially in a medium like Magic, you want to communicate these factions as loud and clear as possible. Having fuzzy edges kind of breaks the whole idea of factions. From a storytelling perspective I like it, because it makes the world feel bigger, but if I look at the card and see the Dromoka watermark it just feels weird. But then again, I don't like the idea of watermarks in general, exactly because of this reason.
Probably an error by the artist. So far every other image of Abzan buildings show them with either an empty top or a dragon perched there.