What troubles me is how interconnected things are becoming. They're shrinking the multiverse by having so many characters come from known planes, and walking to old familiar planes. I hope this trend stops with Gideon. I also hope that Chandra, Jace and Liliana are from unknown worlds. We already know from In The Teeth of Akoum that Nissa's first walks were to Ravnica and Mirrodin.
The magic.wizards.com article about Origins says that "most" planes featured will be worlds we already visited, with only "some" new planes in the set. With 10 planes, that means at least 6 already visited (including Zendikar, Theros and Bant/Alara), and no more than 4 new ones - with Chandra's home plane being confirmed as a new world on that same article.
It really bothers me that Gideon and Elspeth have such close story lines. Both have been to Theros. Both have been to Bant. It feels like they are blurring the lines between the two characters.
It really bothers me that Gideon and Elspeth have such close story lines. Both have been to Theros. Both have been to Bant. It feels like they are blurring the lines between the two characters.
They're also both white aligned walkers with a penchant for personally getting involved armed combat.
Their cards are well differentiated but Gideon and Elspeth are almost identical characters right now.
What troubles me is how interconnected things are becoming. They're shrinking the multiverse by having so many characters come from known planes, and walking to old familiar planes.
But the known multiverse is growing much more quickly than it used to. The setting used to rotate around Dominaria and a few other planes. Now we're visiting on plane per year on average, much more than that if you count Planechase.
What troubles me is how interconnected things are becoming. They're shrinking the multiverse by having so many characters come from known planes, and walking to old familiar planes.
But the known multiverse is growing much more quickly than it used to. The setting used to rotate around Dominaria and a few other planes. Now we're visiting on plane per year on average, much more than that if you count Planechase.
They could've used one of the Planechase planes for Gideon. I don't know, with all these walkers' lives constantly intersecting, it makes the multiverse feel smaller. There's a myriad of non-visited worlds they could use for these things, but they keep going back to the same wells. Last year's Duels of the Planeswalkers is a good example.
As for Dominaria... I got into Magic in late 2013, and I found it equally ridiculous that so much of old Magic's lore took place on one little world.
Their cards are well differentiated but Gideon and Elspeth are almost identical characters right now.
I completely disagree. Elspeth runs away from danger, while Gideon jumps into it head-first. You have to force Elspeth's hand for her to put her life on the line, because as much as she'll stick up for the little guy, she's still suffering from a lot of emotional baggage stemming from years under Phyrexian rule. Gideon will put aside what he's doing to put himself into mortal danger for strangers. They're really very different people.
This is really interesting, and I like that it feels more natural and planned. Makes sense with Gideon's darker complexion, and the idea of an alternate name is compelling too. The best news out of this, though, is that Theros themed cards will appear in Magic Origins. As a White PW, and the whole Order of Heliud thing, I wonder if we'll see white themed Theros cards and whether they'll focus on Heliod or Iroas (gods Gideon might have worshipped).
But what about Kruphix? He should know about Gideon then. Was Elspeth, as a child, the first PW to land on Theros? I thought the UR was referencing her as the first, but I can't be sure. Knowing whether Elspeth is older than Gideon might clarify whether or not she was the first there. Part of me feels it might have been a different female PW since Kruphix didn't specify it as Elspeth depite the fact he speaks about Elspeth to Kydele already, who watched Elspeth save Theros AND get murdered (and thus would know who he was talking about). I wonder if Gideon has been back to Theros after planeswalking. I always wanted a Human PW from Theros, and Gideon turned out to be it all along - pretty neat.
I didn't find the Daxos and Elspeth relationship forced - just a little too subtle and ambiguous. Like it was implied strongly, but not explored. Godsend was more of an action book though so I can see why Jenna skipped the romance factor.
Elsepth was in her twenties, and Gideon is in his early thirties (according to Purifying Fire). Also, given the fact that Kruphix is thousands of years old, when he says "long ago" I don't imagine him meaning a decade or so.
I imagine the reason he doesn't mention the gods is because he knows Heliod is a massive douchenozzle, and became disillusioned with the divinity of his world. The only reason he worked for the Order of Heliud was because they kept peace, and not because of some fanatic devotion.
Kruphix: "There are beings who can walk between these worlds. The first such to set foot on our world did so long ago. I am the knower of all things that are known in this world, and I learned all that she knew."
As a White PW, and the whole Order of Heliud thing, I wonder if we'll see white themed Theros cards and whether they'll focus on Heliod or Iroas (gods Gideon might have worshipped).
Heliud is not Heliod.
But aside from that, there's no certainty which, if any, of the gods he would have paid respect to. After all, Cymede, queen of Akros, was a disciple of Keranos.
You were meant to. They were essentially leading you to that conclusion and if it had been Elspeth as a child, that would have still put it over a decade ago.
I kind of have a problem with the fact that all the planeswalkers seem to start their careers so young. It's starting to feel like Harry Potter, with all these super special children who become great and powerful for no apparent reason. It's not feasible that someone could be a master swordfighter in their early 20s; and it's almost as hard to believe that nobody experiences a spark-igniting moment of trauma or insight any later in their life than the age of 17.
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not watching.
What troubles me is how interconnected things are becoming. They're shrinking the multiverse by having so many characters come from known planes, and walking to old familiar planes.
But the known multiverse is growing much more quickly than it used to. The setting used to rotate around Dominaria and a few other planes. Now we're visiting on plane per year on average, much more than that if you count Planechase.
They could've used one of the Planechase planes for Gideon. I don't know, with all these walkers' lives constantly intersecting, it makes the multiverse feel smaller. There's a myriad of non-visited worlds they could use for these things, but they keep going back to the same wells. Last year's Duels of the Planeswalkers is a good example.
As for Dominaria... I got into Magic in late 2013, and I found it equally ridiculous that so much of old Magic's lore took place on one little world.
In all fairness, if they introduced more worlds than creative could handle, we would only get a bunch of shallow planet-of-hats worlds, which I think can be equally bad or even worse.
However, I do agree with you. I can understand when they do this for sets, like Origins, but they also keep visiting the same worlds in URs as well, like the planeswalker Garruk killed was a native from Innistrad AND spent lots of time on Esper. In the written medium they could just make up or mention new worlds, and nothing feels more forced than having the same plane show up in five or so unrelated stories, especially if the Multiverse is supposed to be near-endless.
In the written medium they could just make up or mention new worlds
I think they've learned their lesson from Planechase on this, if they name a plane that creates an expectation to one day visit it. This is what happened with Mongseng for instance, people saw it figured Sarkhan was from there and then Wizards ended up making Tarkir instead (almost certainly because Mongseng is too close to a British slur). An author can throw casual references into their work no problem but Wizards in the position of potentially having to market and sell a product with that name. That means they have to screen the name in relevant languages, determine it doesn't step on any IP toes, and potentially pay royalties to their writer (if the world was fleshed out).
In the written medium they could just make up or mention new worlds
I think they've learned their lesson from Planechase on this, if they name a plane that creates an expectation to one day visit it. This is what happened with Mongseng for instance, people saw it figured Sarkhan was from there and then Wizards ended up making Tarkir instead (almost certainly because Mongseng is too close to a British slur). An author can throw casual references into their work no problem but Wizards in the position of potentially having to market and sell a product with that name. That means they have to screen the name in relevant languages, determine it doesn't step on any IP toes, and potentially pay royalties to their writer (if the world was fleshed out).
The difference between URs and planechase is that since no art is required you can leave out as much information as you want in the URs. You don't even have to show any artstyle for the plane. For instance you could describe a world as a plane torn by warlords, it could be almost any setting, but if you have art for it it sets very specific expectations that are hard to cater to in a later product.
Also, Mongseng was not used, because they couldn't copyright the name.
One thing I am curious about is how Gideon is going to take what Ajani is up to on Theros right now. I suppose that would partly depend on how he feels about the gods, and how well he knows Ajani. Have Gideon and Ajani crossed paths yet?
In the written medium they could just make up or mention new worlds
I think they've learned their lesson from Planechase on this, if they name a plane that creates an expectation to one day visit it. This is what happened with Mongseng for instance, people saw it figured Sarkhan was from there and then Wizards ended up making Tarkir instead (almost certainly because Mongseng is too close to a British slur). An author can throw casual references into their work no problem but Wizards in the position of potentially having to market and sell a product with that name. That means they have to screen the name in relevant languages, determine it doesn't step on any IP toes, and potentially pay royalties to their writer (if the world was fleshed out).
I would much rather keep hearing about the same worlds than get another case of "Arkhos is Theros!" situation again. That and we're following around a small cast of characters rather than every PW out there. What we're seeing in the stories so far isn't necessarily what is exclusively going on in the Multiverse. It's not so much that the Multiverse is small so much that PWs are rare and the story is told through them and their exploits.
Maybe in the eventual return to theros, gideon goes back to theros because he's heard about what happened there and runs into ajani. Only for xenagos to make his comeback and take over the plane now that heliod doesn't have a champion anymore. But I may just be a little hopeful and biased
In the written medium they could just make up or mention new worlds
I think they've learned their lesson from Planechase on this, if they name a plane that creates an expectation to one day visit it. This is what happened with Mongseng for instance, people saw it figured Sarkhan was from there and then Wizards ended up making Tarkir instead (almost certainly because Mongseng is too close to a British slur). An author can throw casual references into their work no problem but Wizards in the position of potentially having to market and sell a product with that name. That means they have to screen the name in relevant languages, determine it doesn't step on any IP toes, and potentially pay royalties to their writer (if the world was fleshed out).
In all honesty, they could've just said Mongseng was Ob's original plane. From what we see on the card, and from what's known about the place it fits what we were told Ob's native plane was like before it was destroyed.
Unrelated to the discussion at hand, but I felt that needed to be stated.
I would much rather keep hearing about the same worlds than get another case of "Arkhos is Theros!" situation again. That and we're following around a small cast of characters rather than every PW out there. What we're seeing in the stories so far isn't necessarily what is exclusively going on in the Multiverse. It's not so much that the Multiverse is small so much that PWs are rare and the story is told through them and their exploits.
It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. You can have your Equilors and your Innistrads. If some random plane's mentioned in an Uncharted Realms, and a random walker from that plane shows up, I doubt it creates any kind of future expectation.
One thing I am curious about is how Gideon is going to take what Ajani is up to on Theros right now. I suppose that would partly depend on how he feels about the gods, and how well he knows Ajani. Have Gideon and Ajani crossed paths yet?
Given Gideon's characterization and the fact that he doesn't ever mention Theros at any point, I'm of the belief he doesn't care for the gods and their petty nature. Someone like Heliod, for example, is a person Gideon would despise (you know, if he was capable of such dark emotions).
We sort of did get that with the M15 stories she Garuuk killed the cryomancer PW from the unnamed icy plane. They just avoided naming it, and rightfully so IMO.
The magic.wizards.com article about Origins says that "most" planes featured will be worlds we already visited, with only "some" new planes in the set. With 10 planes, that means at least 6 already visited (including Zendikar, Theros and Bant/Alara), and no more than 4 new ones - with Chandra's home plane being confirmed as a new world on that same article.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
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They're also both white aligned walkers with a penchant for personally getting involved armed combat.
Their cards are well differentiated but Gideon and Elspeth are almost identical characters right now.
But the known multiverse is growing much more quickly than it used to. The setting used to rotate around Dominaria and a few other planes. Now we're visiting on plane per year on average, much more than that if you count Planechase.
They could've used one of the Planechase planes for Gideon. I don't know, with all these walkers' lives constantly intersecting, it makes the multiverse feel smaller. There's a myriad of non-visited worlds they could use for these things, but they keep going back to the same wells. Last year's Duels of the Planeswalkers is a good example.
As for Dominaria... I got into Magic in late 2013, and I found it equally ridiculous that so much of old Magic's lore took place on one little world.
I completely disagree. Elspeth runs away from danger, while Gideon jumps into it head-first. You have to force Elspeth's hand for her to put her life on the line, because as much as she'll stick up for the little guy, she's still suffering from a lot of emotional baggage stemming from years under Phyrexian rule. Gideon will put aside what he's doing to put himself into mortal danger for strangers. They're really very different people.
Your mods are terrified of me.
But what about Kruphix? He should know about Gideon then. Was Elspeth, as a child, the first PW to land on Theros? I thought the UR was referencing her as the first, but I can't be sure. Knowing whether Elspeth is older than Gideon might clarify whether or not she was the first there. Part of me feels it might have been a different female PW since Kruphix didn't specify it as Elspeth depite the fact he speaks about Elspeth to Kydele already, who watched Elspeth save Theros AND get murdered (and thus would know who he was talking about). I wonder if Gideon has been back to Theros after planeswalking. I always wanted a Human PW from Theros, and Gideon turned out to be it all along - pretty neat.
I didn't find the Daxos and Elspeth relationship forced - just a little too subtle and ambiguous. Like it was implied strongly, but not explored. Godsend was more of an action book though so I can see why Jenna skipped the romance factor.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I imagine the reason he doesn't mention the gods is because he knows Heliod is a massive douchenozzle, and became disillusioned with the divinity of his world. The only reason he worked for the Order of Heliud was because they kept peace, and not because of some fanatic devotion.
Your mods are terrified of me.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Your mods are terrified of me.
Kruphix: "There are beings who can walk between these worlds. The first such to set foot on our world did so long ago. I am the knower of all things that are known in this world, and I learned all that she knew."
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Your mods are terrified of me.
It helps that his master constantly warned him not to trust red magic since his own master had been killed by a pyromancer.
Order of Heliud. With a U, not an O.
According to the UR that covers some of Desperate Stand, if you get caught stealing, you get the option to join the military.
Also, Ashiok is NOT from Theros.
Heliud is not Heliod.
But aside from that, there's no certainty which, if any, of the gods he would have paid respect to. After all, Cymede, queen of Akros, was a disciple of Keranos.
You were meant to. They were essentially leading you to that conclusion and if it had been Elspeth as a child, that would have still put it over a decade ago.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
In all fairness, if they introduced more worlds than creative could handle, we would only get a bunch of shallow planet-of-hats worlds, which I think can be equally bad or even worse.
However, I do agree with you. I can understand when they do this for sets, like Origins, but they also keep visiting the same worlds in URs as well, like the planeswalker Garruk killed was a native from Innistrad AND spent lots of time on Esper. In the written medium they could just make up or mention new worlds, and nothing feels more forced than having the same plane show up in five or so unrelated stories, especially if the Multiverse is supposed to be near-endless.
I think they've learned their lesson from Planechase on this, if they name a plane that creates an expectation to one day visit it. This is what happened with Mongseng for instance, people saw it figured Sarkhan was from there and then Wizards ended up making Tarkir instead (almost certainly because Mongseng is too close to a British slur). An author can throw casual references into their work no problem but Wizards in the position of potentially having to market and sell a product with that name. That means they have to screen the name in relevant languages, determine it doesn't step on any IP toes, and potentially pay royalties to their writer (if the world was fleshed out).
The difference between URs and planechase is that since no art is required you can leave out as much information as you want in the URs. You don't even have to show any artstyle for the plane. For instance you could describe a world as a plane torn by warlords, it could be almost any setting, but if you have art for it it sets very specific expectations that are hard to cater to in a later product.
Also, Mongseng was not used, because they couldn't copyright the name.
I would much rather keep hearing about the same worlds than get another case of "Arkhos is Theros!" situation again. That and we're following around a small cast of characters rather than every PW out there. What we're seeing in the stories so far isn't necessarily what is exclusively going on in the Multiverse. It's not so much that the Multiverse is small so much that PWs are rare and the story is told through them and their exploits.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Maybe in the eventual return to theros, gideon goes back to theros because he's heard about what happened there and runs into ajani. Only for xenagos to make his comeback and take over the plane now that heliod doesn't have a champion anymore. But I may just be a little hopeful and biased
Major thanks to Traprootkami for the signature.
In all honesty, they could've just said Mongseng was Ob's original plane. From what we see on the card, and from what's known about the place it fits what we were told Ob's native plane was like before it was destroyed.
Unrelated to the discussion at hand, but I felt that needed to be stated.
It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. You can have your Equilors and your Innistrads. If some random plane's mentioned in an Uncharted Realms, and a random walker from that plane shows up, I doubt it creates any kind of future expectation.
Given Gideon's characterization and the fact that he doesn't ever mention Theros at any point, I'm of the belief he doesn't care for the gods and their petty nature. Someone like Heliod, for example, is a person Gideon would despise (you know, if he was capable of such dark emotions).
Your mods are terrified of me.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
In my headcanon I kinda find it suspicious how Soul of Theros' weapon kinda matches preascension Kytheon
Are you kidding me white is the biggest ends justify the means color. anililate free will for order. Sacrifice the individuals for the group etc