And see that bolded idea is precisely why I think that Sarkhan and Narset should NOT be a couple. I have a real problem with this idea in fiction that the significant other is a prize or reward for the main character having gone through something difficult. It's especially prominent with male leads and female love interests but with any character it reduces them to the status of "prize to be won." Heck, as much as I like Narset's little duel with Zurgo it still bothered me a bit because even though they planned on bringing her back through time travel shenanigans, killing Narset to motivate Sarkhan, even if they're only friends (as I believe they are intended to be) smacked of the Women in Refrigerators trope for me.
That's not at all what I mean and I'm sorry I worded it in such a way that it came across like that. Certainly no one is a prize to be one for a difficult trial. All I meant is that it would be a nice change of pace for Sarkhan. It doesn't even have to be a romantic relationship really. I'm fine with them being nothing more than friends. Thing is you can tell that Sarkhan fell for her in the way he talked about the new Tarkir. He had made it this way for her, she would thrive in a Tarkir of dragons and, depending on how she reacts to meeting him after finding out his connection to the events of the past she may or may not want to stay connected to him in some form of relationship, romantic or not. I would think Sarkhan perfectly justified for feeling the way he does. Her touch stilled the voices in his mind. He was mentally at peace with her. I can say for certain that that is one of the many reasons I love my girlfriend so much is that when I'm with her I can put aside everything else and be at peace. Certainly Narset can and likely will object but I think that every once in a while it's okay for a franchise to throw in a "and the boy gets the firl and lives happily ever after" thing, even if that is sorta cheesy.
Barinellos: Yeah I'm fully aware that part of the reason it seems romantic is because Sarkhan is all sorts of screwy and probably has no idea how to handle an actual relationship.
As for Narset and Sarkhan I don't see any difference between they're "random hookup" and a romantic relationship between Chandra and Gideon. Narset made Sarkhan feel peaceful in his otherwise ravaged mind. Chandra makes Gideon question his alliances and his beliefs. I think either of these relationships is fine but I don't think calling one a random hookup while thinking the other is fine is a good way to look at it. Personally I think Sarkhan deserves a nice lady to accompany him after all the crap he's been through. And if Chandra can get Gideon to lighten(heh) up a little then great. I do think it would be interesting if they explored planeswalkers relationships with each other more which it seems is what they will be doing in the future. I mean we know that Jace and Lilli were a thing once upon a time.
I suppose I should respond to this too.
The difference between Chandra and Gideon and Narset and Sarkhan is the sort of chemistry and tension that was present.
Narset and Sarkhan lacked pretty much all of that. They met and got along, but there wasn't really anything there that made sense as a relationship. Sarkhan went all agog and smitten with her, but it was very much a projection onto Narset instead of a mutually built relationship. To quote Barbara Streissand from a movie (I honestly don't remember which one) "You aren't in love with me, you're in love with the idea of me."
Gideon and Chandra, on the other hand, had an obvious tension and worked together well. The fact that they didn't want to admit it, and finally the pair confided in each other felt much more developed than the few days Sarkhan and Narset spent with each other even though it was probably roughly the same amount of time spent together. I mean, part of that might have genuinely been the difference between a foxhole romance and roadtrip buddy, but ultimately, there seemed to be genuine chemistry between Gideon and Chandra that was totally missing from Mister crazy pants and his bride to be.
Essentially, I just don't see how Sarkhan could actually be in a relationship because he IS crazy. And not functionally either, but completely outside society crazy.
Regardless though, I still don't see why Narset and Sarkhan need to be romantically involved or how their relationship (in the we know each other sense) can't be viewed as kindred spirits but platonic ones. I have friends who've helped to quiet the difficult point in my life and with two red aligned characters (Narset in the Khans timeline was at least partially red) and when you have a character as emotional as Sarkhan you need not be desirous of someone romantically to grow attached quickly. Pairing them up romantically to me goes beyond cheesy and actually would be a bit of a step backwards from the cook kind of progressive attempts Wizards has made recently by continuing the trite concept that if a male and female character meet in a story and are leads or close to it, they must end up together.
Heck I've had people I became VERY emotionally attached to VERY quickly and had no romantic attachment to them and I'm not even particularly emotional (my nickname among my friends is Mr. Spock for a reason). But Red is the color of loyalty and I can see Sarkhan especially latching on to someone new as a friend without much time elapsing.
As much as I respect your position and authority as a storyline guru and lore keeper I disagree with you whole heartedly about seeing Narset/Sarkhan as a "hook up." From what I understand, Elspeth's feelings for Daxos were pretty clearly stated but it seemed like Narset and Sarkhan were just friends and personally really hope it stays that way.
The first rule of mediocre fiction is, if there's a male character and a female character, they spend time together, are roughly of equal power and they work together for any goal, they wind up sleeping together.
TBH with Narset being WU with a potential of having been red as well 'if the past had gone differently', and Sarkhan now sane (I believe), I can see them working in a mediocre fiction way.
Regardless though, I still don't see why Narset and Sarkhan need to be romantically involved or how their relationship (in the we know each other sense) can't be viewed as kindred spirits but platonic ones.
It certainly could be read as that and that is how I read it.
But there are also those who read it as a romantic relationship and that is valid too because the interpretations are independent to each reader. The Death of the Author provides that the the personal experience people read into a passage is valid to them and we pretty much just have to come up with a popular consensus. Which is why I worry because if the consensus seems to fluctuate between the romantic and the platonic and if it sways too far to a "soul mate" situation, I fear we're going to get stuck with it in the fandom.
Essentially, it comes down to perception is reality, and that worries me.
But Red is the color of loyalty and I can see Sarkhan especially latching on to someone new as a friend without much time elapsing.
red certainly can be loyal, but I'm not sure I'd call it the color of loyalty... Loyalty is a trait that can really manifest in any color just because of what it is. Even Toshiro Umezawa was loyal to the Hyozan Reckoners, and he was mono-black.
Pairing them up romantically to me goes beyond cheesy and actually would be a bit of a step backwards from the cook kind of progressive attempts Wizards has made recently by continuing the trite concept that if a male and female character meet in a story and are leads or close to it, they must end up together.
Bolded for emphasis of me making the point about why yes it's mediocre storytelling and Wizards can do better.
Like I said. It doesn't have to be romantic. I'm not even saying I interpreted their meeting in the KTK as directly leading to a romantic relationship. It is clear how Sarkhan feels, whatever that means for someone of his mental state and it's just kind of an off hope of mine since I've grown attached to Narset as a character who has many similarities to me and feeling sorry for Sarkhan and thinking he's come about in his life and could stand to have something good in it for once. I'm not "shipping" it and I'd be fine with Wizards going so far as Narset completely blowing Sarkhan off seeing as she's never met him as far as she knows and for him to just come up to her and be all like "Narset look what I did for you, look at all the dragons isn't it perfect" would be awfully weird from her perspective.
Frankly, I think it would be astoundingly fitting if Narset blew him off. He changed the history and "saved her" but he lost his friend in the process and it would be glorious irony from Sarkhan's side. Save the dragons, lose your friend.
Frankly, I think it would be astoundingly fitting if Narset blew him off. He changed the history and "saved her" but he lost his friend in the process and it would be glorious irony from Sarkhan's side. Save the dragons, lose your friend.
They have been talking about the whole "When you time travel to change things they don't always work out the way you had hoped." thing.
Admittedly, I've seen the arts for the other young walker characters but that doesn't connect specifically to Gideon.
....Um....what? Are you saying you've therefore seen the legendary creature arts of the planeswalkers we'll be seeing for Magic Origins?
Akki_Akki thinks...
Might be referring to the artwork similar to how a young jace was shown in the foreground and his older self in the background. Similar to what say Luminum Can has for avatar.
You can Google Images Magic Duels: Origins and you'll get both Gideon images as well as art for each walker with their current self in the background and a younger self in the foreground. The young Chandra from the trailer, the promo image of Jace from the announcement article, a different angle of young healer Lilli, Gideon in perhaps his later teen years holding a spear very reminiscent of Heliod's and Nissa aiming a bow.
Those seem to not be the card art for the young planeswalkers, but rather key art depicting them for promotional purposes. The Duels story campaign screen showing young Kytheon in the OP, for example, looks far more likely to be card art than the teenaged/young adult depiction in the key art.
Weird bit is, I'm seeing a different close friend for Narset 1.1: Domri Rade, of all people. (I like the Odd Friendship precept.) As to Vol, I think it's been no more than one full day (if that) for him between seeing Narset 1.0 slain and emerging in Tarkir 1.1. No way have his emotions had a chance to cool down.
So the question germane to Kytheon is, will Bant be treated as a plane unto itself, since it was most likely pre-Conflux? Or will this be the full representation for Alara aggregate?
Weird bit is, I'm seeing a different close friend for Narset 1.1: Domri Rade, of all people. (I like the Odd Friendship precept.) As to Vol, I think it's been no more than one full day (if that) for him between seeing Narset 1.0 slain and emerging in Tarkir 1.1. No way have his emotions had a chance to cool down.
So the question germane to Kytheon is, will Bant be treated as a plane unto itself, since it was most likely pre-Conflux? Or will this be the full representation for Alara aggregate?
I'm hoping it's just the shard. I mean, if it wasn't just Bant, they'd've said Alara.
Origin stories aside, kinda disappointed that a tenth of the last core set is giving us even more Theros though. Ravnica is kind of a shoe-in, and I'll be shocked if it isn't one of the ten, but Theros block was only just last year, and the core set before this was somewhat Theros heavy. The only way there could be a less exciting plane to showcase is if they somehow made Tarkir one of the ten.
Weird bit is, I'm seeing a different close friend for Narset 1.1: Domri Rade, of all people. (I like the Odd Friendship precept.) As to Vol, I think it's been no more than one full day (if that) for him between seeing Narset 1.0 slain and emerging in Tarkir 1.1. No way have his emotions had a chance to cool down.
So the question germane to Kytheon is, will Bant be treated as a plane unto itself, since it was most likely pre-Conflux? Or will this be the full representation for Alara aggregate?
I'm hoping it's just the shard. I mean, if it wasn't just Bant, they'd've said Alara.
Origin stories aside, kinda disappointed that a tenth of the last core set is giving us even more Theros though. Ravnica is kind of a shoe-in, and I'll be shocked if it isn't one of the ten, but Theros block was only just last year, and the core set before this was somewhat Theros heavy. The only way there could be a less exciting plane to showcase is if they somehow made Tarkir one of the ten.
I think it's Bant the shard. These are the origin stories and I think this would have been before the conflux.
Incidentally, I am deeply amused by the fact that he comes from Akros and is probably going to end up getting dropped into Akrasa during his tenure on Bant.
Out of all of the Bantish nations, that one just feels most likely to me. Valeron already had Elspeth and Topa and Jhess just don't feel right to me. Could have ended up in Eos, but... I mean, come on, Akros and Akrasa is just too funny.
If this is true and intentional (Akros-Akrasa), it is very interesting. Not to mention that later in his life, Gideon was serving the Order of Heliud in The Purifying Fire. There seems to be so many suspiciously similar names...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
100% Vorthos Spike and Storyline Expert
Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
But on the wiki he is from the plane Regatha though. He also had his spark ignited after winning and defeating a losing battle. This seems like quite a change to me.
I don't think Theros is the kind of place where they would rehabilitate recurring offenders of the law also I thought it was the leonin (Elite Skirmisher) who wielded the ability to ensnare creatures. Not to mention the weapon he uses wasn't seen once on Theros or Akros. Akros is just a slightly nicer version of sparta but in essence it is still sparta. They trap deserters in searing hot metal cages (Deserter's Quarters), that doesn't really seem like Gideon's way of justice. I'm worried they just said he's from there as it's easier than making a new plane. Theros had no history of past planewalkers before Ashiok and Xenagos. Yet Gideon's teacher stated that his own teacher was a planeswalker and the greatest Heiromancer who lived, you'd think you'd have seen tales or people copying the art in Theros.
The weapon he got was from his master, who got it from his own master. If only two people used the weapon, and then the third disappeared, it's not something I expect to see in large numbers, especially when it wasn't native to the plane. From what we know of most walkers, one or two people on a plane know of them.
Kruphix also stated that Walkers had been there before Xenagos and Elspeth:
Kruphix shook what passed for his head.
No. There are beings who can walk between these worlds. The first such to set foot on our world did so long ago. I am the knower of all things that are known in this world, and I learned all that she knew.
Kydele thought for a moment about everything she had heard and seen from her perch in Kruphix's great trees.
What troubles me is how interconnected things are becoming. They're shrinking the multiverse by having so many characters come from known planes, and walking to old familiar planes. I hope this trend stops with Gideon. I also hope that Chandra, Jace and Liliana are from unknown worlds. We already know from In The Teeth of Akoum that Nissa's first walks were to Ravnica and Mirrodin.
That's not at all what I mean and I'm sorry I worded it in such a way that it came across like that. Certainly no one is a prize to be one for a difficult trial. All I meant is that it would be a nice change of pace for Sarkhan. It doesn't even have to be a romantic relationship really. I'm fine with them being nothing more than friends. Thing is you can tell that Sarkhan fell for her in the way he talked about the new Tarkir. He had made it this way for her, she would thrive in a Tarkir of dragons and, depending on how she reacts to meeting him after finding out his connection to the events of the past she may or may not want to stay connected to him in some form of relationship, romantic or not. I would think Sarkhan perfectly justified for feeling the way he does. Her touch stilled the voices in his mind. He was mentally at peace with her. I can say for certain that that is one of the many reasons I love my girlfriend so much is that when I'm with her I can put aside everything else and be at peace. Certainly Narset can and likely will object but I think that every once in a while it's okay for a franchise to throw in a "and the boy gets the firl and lives happily ever after" thing, even if that is sorta cheesy.
Barinellos: Yeah I'm fully aware that part of the reason it seems romantic is because Sarkhan is all sorts of screwy and probably has no idea how to handle an actual relationship.
The difference between Chandra and Gideon and Narset and Sarkhan is the sort of chemistry and tension that was present.
Narset and Sarkhan lacked pretty much all of that. They met and got along, but there wasn't really anything there that made sense as a relationship. Sarkhan went all agog and smitten with her, but it was very much a projection onto Narset instead of a mutually built relationship. To quote Barbara Streissand from a movie (I honestly don't remember which one) "You aren't in love with me, you're in love with the idea of me."
Gideon and Chandra, on the other hand, had an obvious tension and worked together well. The fact that they didn't want to admit it, and finally the pair confided in each other felt much more developed than the few days Sarkhan and Narset spent with each other even though it was probably roughly the same amount of time spent together. I mean, part of that might have genuinely been the difference between a foxhole romance and roadtrip buddy, but ultimately, there seemed to be genuine chemistry between Gideon and Chandra that was totally missing from Mister crazy pants and his bride to be.
Essentially, I just don't see how Sarkhan could actually be in a relationship because he IS crazy. And not functionally either, but completely outside society crazy.
Regardless though, I still don't see why Narset and Sarkhan need to be romantically involved or how their relationship (in the we know each other sense) can't be viewed as kindred spirits but platonic ones. I have friends who've helped to quiet the difficult point in my life and with two red aligned characters (Narset in the Khans timeline was at least partially red) and when you have a character as emotional as Sarkhan you need not be desirous of someone romantically to grow attached quickly. Pairing them up romantically to me goes beyond cheesy and actually would be a bit of a step backwards from the cook kind of progressive attempts Wizards has made recently by continuing the trite concept that if a male and female character meet in a story and are leads or close to it, they must end up together.
Heck I've had people I became VERY emotionally attached to VERY quickly and had no romantic attachment to them and I'm not even particularly emotional (my nickname among my friends is Mr. Spock for a reason). But Red is the color of loyalty and I can see Sarkhan especially latching on to someone new as a friend without much time elapsing.
The first rule of mediocre fiction is, if there's a male character and a female character, they spend time together, are roughly of equal power and they work together for any goal, they wind up sleeping together.
TBH with Narset being WU with a potential of having been red as well 'if the past had gone differently', and Sarkhan now sane (I believe), I can see them working in a mediocre fiction way.
But there are also those who read it as a romantic relationship and that is valid too because the interpretations are independent to each reader. The Death of the Author provides that the the personal experience people read into a passage is valid to them and we pretty much just have to come up with a popular consensus. Which is why I worry because if the consensus seems to fluctuate between the romantic and the platonic and if it sways too far to a "soul mate" situation, I fear we're going to get stuck with it in the fandom.
Essentially, it comes down to perception is reality, and that worries me.
red certainly can be loyal, but I'm not sure I'd call it the color of loyalty... Loyalty is a trait that can really manifest in any color just because of what it is. Even Toshiro Umezawa was loyal to the Hyozan Reckoners, and he was mono-black.
Bolded for emphasis of me making the point about why yes it's mediocre storytelling and Wizards can do better.
Might have gone off topic a bit however.
> . >
< . <
Mah bad.
They have been talking about the whole "When you time travel to change things they don't always work out the way you had hoped." thing.
There again, I'm also not sure how much there is to say about Gideon in relation to either Theros or Bant that hasn't already been said.
....Um....what? Are you saying you've therefore seen the legendary creature arts of the planeswalkers we'll be seeing for Magic Origins?
Akki_Akki thinks...
Might be referring to the artwork similar to how a young jace was shown in the foreground and his older self in the background. Similar to what say Luminum Can has for avatar.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
So the question germane to Kytheon is, will Bant be treated as a plane unto itself, since it was most likely pre-Conflux? Or will this be the full representation for Alara aggregate?
I'm hoping it's just the shard. I mean, if it wasn't just Bant, they'd've said Alara.
Origin stories aside, kinda disappointed that a tenth of the last core set is giving us even more Theros though. Ravnica is kind of a shoe-in, and I'll be shocked if it isn't one of the ten, but Theros block was only just last year, and the core set before this was somewhat Theros heavy. The only way there could be a less exciting plane to showcase is if they somehow made Tarkir one of the ten.
Commander Decks
WDarien, King of KjeldorW - WYomiji, Who Bars the WayW - UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
BPhage the UntouchableB - BShirei,
Shadowborn Ap-Shizo's CaretakerB - RZirilan of the ClawR(W/U)Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper(W/U) - (2/G)Phelddagrif Politics(W/U) - (U/B)Mishra, Artificer Prodigy(U/R) - Karona, God of Voltron
No and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I just meant that I've seen those teen arts like the one we saw for Jace and the Theros one for Gideon.
I think it's Bant the shard. These are the origin stories and I think this would have been before the conflux.
Martial Glory
Renounce the Guilds
If this is true and intentional (Akros-Akrasa), it is very interesting. Not to mention that later in his life, Gideon was serving the Order of Heliud in The Purifying Fire. There seems to be so many suspiciously similar names...
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Having read The Purifying Fire multiple times, nothing so far contradicts anything from the book.
Your mods are terrified of me.
The weapon he got was from his master, who got it from his own master. If only two people used the weapon, and then the third disappeared, it's not something I expect to see in large numbers, especially when it wasn't native to the plane. From what we know of most walkers, one or two people on a plane know of them.
Kruphix also stated that Walkers had been there before Xenagos and Elspeth:
What troubles me is how interconnected things are becoming. They're shrinking the multiverse by having so many characters come from known planes, and walking to old familiar planes. I hope this trend stops with Gideon. I also hope that Chandra, Jace and Liliana are from unknown worlds. We already know from In The Teeth of Akoum that Nissa's first walks were to Ravnica and Mirrodin.
Your mods are terrified of me.