I read This spoiler and my jaw dropped. That page is self explanatory: http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/narsettranscendent.html How could Narset ascend to planes walker status when she died at hands of Zurgo? or when Sarkhan Vol reforged fate he saved her and altered her destiny somehow?
short story; alternate reality shenanigans
long story: what you said, in FTF the past changed...so the present will be a different present, DTK and KTK are both different presents.
and thats why i hate time travel, fall into deus ex machina logic.
I guess they could have averted time travel by having Narset awakened as a PW during her fight with Zurgo and vanished to another plane, that Sarkhan used his own dragon magic to revive Ugin through some kind of magic emanating from the nexus, and the revival and healing of Ugin revives the dragons though return of the tempests.
Linear and perhaps predictable.
The alternate storylines are still sort of interesting in their own way though, seeing how people, settings and the plane itself changed with the alteration, so there's that.
[quote]
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I wish Narset had awakened as a PW during her fight with Zurgo and vanished, that Sarkhan used his own dragon magic to revive Ugin through some kind of magic emanating from the nexus, and the revival and healing of Ugin revives the dragons though return of the tempests.
Linear and perhaps predictable, but I just don't like time travel stories ./quote]
I feel the same bro. Its one of those "Back to The Future" situations.
I guess they could have averted time travel by having Narset awakened as a PW during her fight with Zurgo and vanished to another plane, that Sarkhan used his own dragon magic to revive Ugin through some kind of magic emanating from the nexus, and the revival and healing of Ugin revives the dragons though return of the tempests.
Linear and perhaps predictable.
The alternate storylines are still sort of interesting in their own way though, seeing how people, settings and the plane itself changed with the alteration, so there's that.
The problem is that we know that the timetravel still counts for the whole Multiverse. Sure, 99% of the other planes remain completely unaffected, but that is only because of the scarcity of agents providing cross pollination across the planes. If Narset ascended and was on a different plane, the changes would still have affected her, because the events leading to her ascension would not have happened in DTK.
A better way to look at this whole thing is to just imagine that we, the viewers and Sarkhan, simply entered an alternative timeline, instead of changing everything.
I wonder how many people not following the storyline get that KTK came after FRF chronolically and takes place simoultanously as DTK.
I'd wager it's not a lot of people.
Seems obvious enough to me, considering that I don't care about Magic lore and I still knew that.
Fair enough, but as a Game Designer I can tell you that even when you expect the absolute worst from your players, you are still right 90% of the time.
It doesn't bother me as much because like you said, PWs are a limited breed in the multi-verse and thus the changes remain rather local, and occur only because of a rare, isolated event involving an oldwalker at the time (the nexus). That and MTG has time magic in Blue, albeit on a significantly smaller scale so it's not too absurd.
Either way I don't care much for this plane or storyline outside of Narset being a UW walker and Ugin living to fight the Eldrazi in a potential Zendikar storyline for the future.
I wonder how many people not following the storyline get that KTK came after FRF chronolically and takes place simoultanously as DTK.
I'd wager it's not a lot of people.
Well in terms of OP here he knew enough that Zurgo killed Narset in the original storyline. I figured if someone was deep into the story to know that much he would have known the whole time traveling/changing history thing was coming.
Because in the original KTK storyline Narset was the khan of Tarkir and the Jeskai looked to her for advice and wisdom. In the new storyline she had a very powerful and very wise teacher, Ojutai. Because Ojutai helped her to hone her natural intelligence and abilities (and because with him being a dragon he prompted her to aspire to heights unheard of in the original storyline) it helped her spark to ignite. Over the years in Magic lore it was never really clear what caused a planeswalker spark to ignite. For some it was being caught in a tragic accident (Bo Levar) and for some it was a heightened state of awareness (Narset). However, the general consensus is that a spark is ignited during an extreme of some sort. Hence why her spark didn't ignite in KTK...she was not propelled to that extreme sense of enlightenment.
Because in the original KTK storyline Narset was the khan of Tarkir and the Jeskai looked to her for advice and wisdom. In the new storyline she had a very powerful and very wise teacher, Ojutai. Because Ojutai helped her to hone her natural intelligence and abilities (and because with him being a dragon he prompted her to aspire to heights unheard of in the original storyline) it helped her spark to ignite. Over the years in Magic lore it was never really clear what caused a planeswalker spark to ignite. For some it was being caught in a tragic accident (Bo Levar) and for some it was a heightened state of awareness (Narset). However, the general consensus is that a spark is ignited during an extreme of some sort. Hence why her spark didn't ignite in KTK...she was not propelled to that extreme sense of enlightenment.
It's not enlightenment that caused her spark to ignite, rather the trauma of learning that Ojutai's teachings were lies.
But Ojutai's teachings weren't lies, simply his version of history. At the end of the story her quest for knowledge led her to discover the truth of Tarkir which made her realize that Tarkir was a much stronger and better place because of Ojutai and perhaps the other dragon lords and that is why he smiled at the end of the uncharted realms; he wanted her NOT to follow a dragon but to find the dragon within herself, hence her transcendence.
But Ojutai's teachings weren't lies, simply his version of history. At the end of the story her quest for knowledge led her to discover the truth of Tarkir which made her realize that Tarkir was a much stronger and better place because of Ojutai and perhaps the other dragon lords and that is why he smiled at the end of the uncharted realms; he wanted her NOT to follow a dragon but to find the dragon within herself, hence her transcendence.
But her spark had already ignited at that point and she'd chosen to stay on Tarkir until she understood.
It was the shock of learning that Ojutai had violently conquered the clan that triggered her spark.
But Ojutai's teachings weren't lies, simply his version of history. At the end of the story her quest for knowledge led her to discover the truth of Tarkir which made her realize that Tarkir was a much stronger and better place because of Ojutai and perhaps the other dragon lords and that is why he smiled at the end of the uncharted realms; he wanted her NOT to follow a dragon but to find the dragon within herself, hence her transcendence.
But her spark had already ignited at that point and she'd chosen to stay on Tarkir until she understood.
It was the shock of learning that Ojutai had violently conquered the clan that triggered her spark.
That I will agree with, good sir! I guess I just found it interesting that Ojutai and Narset smiled at each other at the end of the story. Perhaps Ojutai realized, before the fall of the khans, that he couldn't create the kind of balance HE thought was appropriate for the Jeskai unless the clans were revamped and dissenters against the new order had to be killed. It's probably why he decided to kill Shun Yu; because the Jeskai followed Shun Yu's teachings and he wanted them to follow his teachings instead.
All in all, though obviously Ojutai has murdered probably thousands in his lifetime, I cannot believe a being that seeks knowledge, zen and who clearly respects his pupils to be a heartless monster.
I guess they could have averted time travel by having Narset awakened as a PW during her fight with Zurgo and vanished to another plane, that Sarkhan used his own dragon magic to revive Ugin through some kind of magic emanating from the nexus, and the revival and healing of Ugin revives the dragons though return of the tempests.
Linear and perhaps predictable.
The alternate storylines are still sort of interesting in their own way though, seeing how people, settings and the plane itself changed with the alteration, so there's that.
The problem is that we know that the timetravel still counts for the whole Multiverse. Sure, 99% of the other planes remain completely unaffected, but that is only because of the scarcity of agents providing cross pollination across the planes. If Narset ascended and was on a different plane, the changes would still have affected her, because the events leading to her ascension would not have happened in DTK.
A better way to look at this whole thing is to just imagine that we, the viewers and Sarkhan, simply entered an alternative timeline, instead of changing everything.
I wonder how many people not following the storyline get that KTK came after FRF chronolically and takes place simoultanously as DTK.
I'd wager it's not a lot of people.
Seems obvious enough to me, considering that I don't care about Magic lore and I still knew that.
Fair enough, but as a Game Designer I can tell you that even when you expect the absolute worst from your players, you are still right 90% of the time.
Sorry, but I thought it was confirmed that the time change only effects Tarkir itself. That even though in this timeline Sarkhan was never born, the old him still did all the off plane things he did. Why would that not also effect other planeswalkers who are no longer on the plane?
That I will agree with, good sir! I guess I just found it interesting that Ojutai and Narset smiled at each other at the end of the story. Perhaps Ojutai realized, before the fall of the khans, that he couldn't create the kind of balance HE thought was appropriate for the Jeskai unless the clans were revamped and dissenters against the new order had to be killed. It's probably why he decided to kill Shun Yu; because the Jeskai followed Shun Yu's teachings and he wanted them to follow his teachings instead.
All in all, though obviously Ojutai has murdered probably thousands in his lifetime, I cannot believe a being that seeks knowledge, zen and who clearly respects his pupils to be a heartless monster.
I, quite honestly, think there was a certain level of vengeance involved there. After all, the Jeskai had been murdering his brood for ages and really the only casualties of the coup were the Ghostfire warriors who... all earned their tattoos by killing a dragon.
Mind, I'm not saying your reading of the situation is wrong, just that it might have been multifaceted.
That I will agree with, good sir! I guess I just found it interesting that Ojutai and Narset smiled at each other at the end of the story. Perhaps Ojutai realized, before the fall of the khans, that he couldn't create the kind of balance HE thought was appropriate for the Jeskai unless the clans were revamped and dissenters against the new order had to be killed. It's probably why he decided to kill Shun Yu; because the Jeskai followed Shun Yu's teachings and he wanted them to follow his teachings instead.
All in all, though obviously Ojutai has murdered probably thousands in his lifetime, I cannot believe a being that seeks knowledge, zen and who clearly respects his pupils to be a heartless monster.
I, quite honestly, think there was a certain level of vengeance involved there. After all, the Jeskai had been murdering his brood for ages and really the only casualties of the coup were the Ghostfire warriors who... all earned their tattoos by killing a dragon.
Mind, I'm not saying your reading of the situation is wrong, just that it might have been multifaceted.
That is an interesting perspective and I thank you for the observation. I agree that Ojutai had vengeance against the Jeskai for his race. Being a dragon I'm assuming that aggression, strength and violence are probably sewn into the core of his being. I am interested in his character moreso now because of this unique take on dragons (usually dragons are just vile bastards in Magic!)
That is an interesting perspective and I thank you for the observation. I agree that Ojutai had vengeance against the Jeskai for his race. Being a dragon I'm assuming that aggression, strength and violence are probably sewn into the core of his being. I am interested in his character moreso now because of this unique take on dragons (usually dragons are just vile bastards in Magic!)
Well, I do think it adds a little more understanding to his actions pertaining to Narset if he has a strong streak of loyalty in him for his brood. An attack against them being met with severe retribution could very well fit into the white ideals of "justice".
After taking on the Jeskai remnants, being very protective of them makes sense to me, even for the supposed heretics.
All over, the Ojutai are a distinct and intriguing blend of the two colors.
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long story: what you said, in FTF the past changed...so the present will be a different present, DTK and KTK are both different presents.
and thats why i hate time travel, fall into deus ex machina logic.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I'd wager it's not a lot of people.
Linear and perhaps predictable.
The alternate storylines are still sort of interesting in their own way though, seeing how people, settings and the plane itself changed with the alteration, so there's that.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Seems obvious enough to me, considering that I don't care about Magic lore and I still knew that.
U/R Delver
Wizard Mentor
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Location: Moonsilver Tower, Nephalia
Join Date: 9/19/2013
Posts: 594
I wish Narset had awakened as a PW during her fight with Zurgo and vanished, that Sarkhan used his own dragon magic to revive Ugin through some kind of magic emanating from the nexus, and the revival and healing of Ugin revives the dragons though return of the tempests.
Linear and perhaps predictable, but I just don't like time travel stories ./quote]
I feel the same bro. Its one of those "Back to The Future" situations.
The problem is that we know that the timetravel still counts for the whole Multiverse. Sure, 99% of the other planes remain completely unaffected, but that is only because of the scarcity of agents providing cross pollination across the planes. If Narset ascended and was on a different plane, the changes would still have affected her, because the events leading to her ascension would not have happened in DTK.
A better way to look at this whole thing is to just imagine that we, the viewers and Sarkhan, simply entered an alternative timeline, instead of changing everything.
Fair enough, but as a Game Designer I can tell you that even when you expect the absolute worst from your players, you are still right 90% of the time.
Either way I don't care much for this plane or storyline outside of Narset being a UW walker and Ugin living to fight the Eldrazi in a potential Zendikar storyline for the future.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Well in terms of OP here he knew enough that Zurgo killed Narset in the original storyline. I figured if someone was deep into the story to know that much he would have known the whole time traveling/changing history thing was coming.
But then again he has troll in his name.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
It's not enlightenment that caused her spark to ignite, rather the trauma of learning that Ojutai's teachings were lies.
But her spark had already ignited at that point and she'd chosen to stay on Tarkir until she understood.
It was the shock of learning that Ojutai had violently conquered the clan that triggered her spark.
Yes, yes, you're right. Ojutai is at war with Atarka: Ojutai has always been at war with Atarka. Obviously an agent of Gold-Yun deceived me.
That I will agree with, good sir! I guess I just found it interesting that Ojutai and Narset smiled at each other at the end of the story. Perhaps Ojutai realized, before the fall of the khans, that he couldn't create the kind of balance HE thought was appropriate for the Jeskai unless the clans were revamped and dissenters against the new order had to be killed. It's probably why he decided to kill Shun Yu; because the Jeskai followed Shun Yu's teachings and he wanted them to follow his teachings instead.
All in all, though obviously Ojutai has murdered probably thousands in his lifetime, I cannot believe a being that seeks knowledge, zen and who clearly respects his pupils to be a heartless monster.
Sorry, but I thought it was confirmed that the time change only effects Tarkir itself. That even though in this timeline Sarkhan was never born, the old him still did all the off plane things he did. Why would that not also effect other planeswalkers who are no longer on the plane?
Mind, I'm not saying your reading of the situation is wrong, just that it might have been multifaceted.
That is an interesting perspective and I thank you for the observation. I agree that Ojutai had vengeance against the Jeskai for his race. Being a dragon I'm assuming that aggression, strength and violence are probably sewn into the core of his being. I am interested in his character moreso now because of this unique take on dragons (usually dragons are just vile bastards in Magic!)
Ojutai had them all executed and that aspect of Tarkir culture repressed.
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Well, I do think it adds a little more understanding to his actions pertaining to Narset if he has a strong streak of loyalty in him for his brood. An attack against them being met with severe retribution could very well fit into the white ideals of "justice".
After taking on the Jeskai remnants, being very protective of them makes sense to me, even for the supposed heretics.
All over, the Ojutai are a distinct and intriguing blend of the two colors.