Well, it was a gray area before and normally it shouldn't be raised, but with the Dragonlords revealed to be Neo-Elder-Dragons, I thought it now exists as a possibility - I didn't state any specific methods, just implying Ugin achieved the same thing whoever created Bolas did, except on a "smaller scale", which the Mending may or may not be involved in.
If Ugin managed to "create" Elder Dragons, he should be more powerful than them, right? Like how Sorin created Avacyn - there's no question who was more powerful. Then how did Ugin manage to get beaten by Nicol Bolas, also an Elder Dragon?
Well, it was a gray area before and normally it shouldn't be raised, but with the Dragonlords revealed to be Neo-Elder-Dragons, I thought it now exists as a possibility - I didn't state any specific methods, just implying Ugin achieved the same thing whoever created Bolas did, except on a "smaller scale", which the Mending may or may not be involved in.
If Ugin managed to "create" Elder Dragons, he should be more powerful than them, right? Like how Sorin created Avacyn - there's no question who was more powerful. Then how did Ugin manage to get beaten by Nicol Bolas, also an Elder Dragon?
Besides, Ugin was in a cocoon all the while...
They have confirmed that the 'Elder' in DTK is simply a description of the fact that they are old. They are not the same as the Elder Dragons from Dominaria.
But working on the assumption that age does equate to power, Bolas and Ugin were already 'Elder' dragons during the events of FRF. If the Neo-Elders have grown to be powerful due to the course of time, the Proto-Elders would have grown even more powerful over that same time (well, Bolas at least - who knows whats going on with Ugin).
Therefore it is a safe assumption that the Neo-Elders are not in the same league as Nicol Bolas at present in terms of power.
Well, it was a gray area before and normally it shouldn't be raised, but with the Dragonlords revealed to be Neo-Elder-Dragons, I thought it now exists as a possibility - I didn't state any specific methods, just implying Ugin achieved the same thing whoever created Bolas did, except on a "smaller scale", which the Mending may or may not be involved in.
If Ugin managed to "create" Elder Dragons, he should be more powerful than them, right? Like how Sorin created Avacyn - there's no question who was more powerful. Then how did Ugin manage to get beaten by Nicol Bolas, also an Elder Dragon?
Besides, Ugin was in a cocoon all the while...
Simple. Ugin meets the criteria for being a creator of Elder Dragons by nature of his existence, the same way whatever created Bolas did.
No one said the creators were almighty beings that cannot be killed - Ugin proved that. Had the original creator perished, Bolas wouldn't exist at all, in this case.
Ugin did not create Bolas for sure (took Bolas long enough to even know of Ugin, for starters, whereas the 5 Neo-Elders know Ugin very well). Bolas belongs to another creator, who was around at least over 26,000 years ago. Not all Elder Dragons are created equal, even in the same brood (otherwise Bolas wouldn't have emerged the Victor of his war at all), let alone a Brood with a creator over 26,000 years old and Elder Dragons of 26,000 years versus a creator of less than that.
Since Ugin was not an Elder Dragon of Bolas' Brood (or an Elder Dragon at all), he most likely is the "the creator of the next generation of Elder Dragons". We don't even know whether you have be a Dragon of some form to be qualified as an Elder Dragon creator.
If Bolas knew that the existence of such a being, would he permit that being to exist for long (Yeah, he took a lot of years, but I guess it wasn't that long for Bolas)? Considering the First Dragon War? Of course, we don't know how he found that out, but that's the same question we had since Fate Reforged (How Bolas knew of Ugin, at least - without the implications).
I'm just thinking that this is possible based on what little information we have on Elder Dragons and Bolas' involvement in anything related to them (basically, remove all of them).
Well, it was a gray area before and normally it shouldn't be raised, but with the Dragonlords revealed to be Neo-Elder-Dragons, I thought it now exists as a possibility - I didn't state any specific methods, just implying Ugin achieved the same thing whoever created Bolas did, except on a "smaller scale", which the Mending may or may not be involved in.
If Ugin managed to "create" Elder Dragons, he should be more powerful than them, right? Like how Sorin created Avacyn - there's no question who was more powerful. Then how did Ugin manage to get beaten by Nicol Bolas, also an Elder Dragon?
Besides, Ugin was in a cocoon all the while...
They have confirmed that the 'Elder' in DTK is simply a description of the fact that they are old. They are not the same as the Elder Dragons from Dominaria.
But working on the assumption that age does equate to power, Bolas and Ugin were already 'Elder' dragons during the events of FRF. If the Neo-Elders have grown to be powerful due to the course of time, the Proto-Elders would have grown even more powerful over that same time (well, Bolas at least - who knows whats going on with Ugin).
Therefore it is a safe assumption that the Neo-Elders are not in the same league as Nicol Bolas at present in terms of power.
I meant it more as an argument that Ugin is not sufficiently powerful to create Elder Dragons, seeing as he is on about the same power level as the only known Elder Dragon before the Tarkir Elder Dragons existed.
I meant it more as an argument that Ugin is not sufficiently powerful to create Elder Dragons, seeing as he is on about the same power level as the only known Elder Dragon before the Tarkir Elder Dragons existed.
Nothing implies you have to be more powerful than an Elder Dragon (or a squirrel, for that matter) to be able to create dragons that have Elder potential. I mean, Bolas was more powerful than Ugin, but why isn't he naturally creating Dragon Tempests? I think it's a property of Ugin as a creator and his power level does not relate to that.
Personally, I think Ugin belongs to the "Creator" species and transcending color may (or may not) be a criteria, which is why he was naturally attracted to studying the Eldrazi (Well, he wasn't doing it solely for the good of the Multiverse, at least.)
I meant it more as an argument that Ugin is not sufficiently powerful to create Elder Dragons, seeing as he is on about the same power level as the only known Elder Dragon before the Tarkir Elder Dragons existed.
Well that's the thing, in the FRF age when the Dragonlords were young, they were not 'Elder Dragons', they were just dragons. The only thing that has defined them as 'Elder' Dragons is the fact that they are now old.
Think of it this way, if Ugin is responsible for the dragon rifts, which are the means in which dragons are born in Trakir, then the Neo-Elders (along with all the other dragons) are logically his sons and daughters. This means that every Dragon on Tarkir has Elder Dragon heratage, and the potential to grow to be as powerful as Ugin.
The 5 Dragon lords just happen to be the ones who seized the opportunity.
We only know that 5 Elder Dragons survived the Dragon War. Which means we only know there were more Elder Dragons before that. We don't know what created the Elder Dragons - they may be an entirely different species from dragons, but nothing implied they didn't "evolve" from "regular" dragons through some unknown method / some unknown force did that to them.
Well, it was a gray area before and normally it shouldn't be raised, but with the Dragonlords revealed to be Neo-Elder-Dragons, I thought it now exists as a possibility - I didn't state any specific methods, just implying Ugin achieved the same thing whoever created Bolas did, except on a "smaller scale", which the Mending may or may not be involved in.
2 things blow this completely apart:
1) The Elder Dragons of old did not evolve from regular dragons. Regular dragons DEVOLVED from them. It went the opposite direction from all sources we know.
2) There is absolutely ZERO evidence that Bolas was "created". In fact, given the fact that he actually had siblings and cousins, that implies a strong biological component, meaning creation is NOT viable.
The Tarkir dragons are, first and foremost, WEIRD anomalies. Every other instance, in the ENTIRE HISTORY of Magic has biological dragons. We can't try and pin correlation from an aberrant source. They are an exception, not a data point to be applied to anything else.
And as a final note, Doug specified they are elders only because of age, and are NOT the same as the previous Elder Dragons.
2 things blow this completely apart:
1) The Elder Dragons of old did not evolve from regular dragons. Regular dragons DEVOLVED from them. It went the opposite direction from all sources we know.
2) There is absolutely ZERO evidence that Bolas was "created". In fact, given the fact that he actually had siblings and cousins, that implies a strong biological component, meaning creation is NOT viable.
The Tarkir dragons are, first and foremost, WEIRD anomalies. Every other instance, in the ENTIRE HISTORY of Magic has biological dragons. We can't try and pin correlation from an aberrant source. They are an exception, not a data point to be applied to anything else.
And as a final note, Doug specified they are elders only because of age, and are NOT the same as the previous Elder Dragons.
Actually, it was the first point that encouraged the second - Was it proven that Elder Dragons could even produce other Elder Dragons biologically? All we have are siblings but no parents or children (that aren't lesser Elders or normal Dragons) in the Elder Dragon family chart - it heavily implies Bolas and his siblings/cousins couldn't have been produced biologically, since there has been no species capable of doing so yet revealed - the closest we have are Ugin's abnormal storms. Or did Elder Dragons of old devolve from something even greater?
Ugin is a terrible example, but it's the only one we have, since all Bolas talks about is the war with his siblings, but not so much his parents/creator (whichever is the truth). It's not like we have a whole other wide ranges of Elder Dragon family trees to choose from.
Of course, with Doug's words, it is sort of pointless since on Tarkir you are granted it as an title with age.
2 things blow this completely apart:
1) The Elder Dragons of old did not evolve from regular dragons. Regular dragons DEVOLVED from them. It went the opposite direction from all sources we know.
2) There is absolutely ZERO evidence that Bolas was "created". In fact, given the fact that he actually had siblings and cousins, that implies a strong biological component, meaning creation is NOT viable.
The Tarkir dragons are, first and foremost, WEIRD anomalies. Every other instance, in the ENTIRE HISTORY of Magic has biological dragons. We can't try and pin correlation from an aberrant source. They are an exception, not a data point to be applied to anything else.
And as a final note, Doug specified they are elders only because of age, and are NOT the same as the previous Elder Dragons.
Actually, it was the first point that encouraged the second - Was it proven that Elder Dragons could even produce other Elder Dragons biologically? All we have are siblings but no parents or children (that aren't lesser Elders or normal Dragons) in the Elder Dragon family chart - it heavily implies Bolas and his siblings/cousins couldn't have been produced biologically, since there has been no species capable of doing so yet revealed - the closest we have are Ugin's abnormal storms. Or did Elder Dragons of old devolve from something even greater?
Ugin is a terrible example, but it's the only one we have, since all Bolas talks about is the war with his siblings, but not so much his parents/creator (whichever is the truth). It's not like we have a whole other wide ranges of Elder Dragon family trees to choose from.
Of course, with Doug's words, it is sort of pointless since on Tarkir you are granted it as an title with age.
You keep ignoring that Bolas and the others were the survivors, the winners of the war. If anything, that implies Bolas fought on the same side as his siblings-and-cousin against other elder dragon factions, and his was the victorious side. There were many other elder dragons. They just all died or where stripped of their wings and their power after the war and became elder land wurms.
So they weren't the only elder dragons originally, and nowhere is said they were the original elders either - in fact, if Nicol Bolas and Arcades Sabboth are called brothers but Vaevictis Asmadi is called their cousin, that implies an older generation of four dragons, two of them siblings themselves, who could only be elder dragons themselves.
You keep ignoring that Bolas and the others were the survivors, the winners of the war. If anything, that implies Bolas fought on the same side as his siblings-and-cousin against other elder dragon factions, and his was the victorious side. There were many other elder dragons. They just all died or where stripped of their wings and their power after the war and became elder land wurms.
So they weren't the only elder dragons originally, and nowhere is said they were the original elders either - in fact, if Nicol Bolas and Arcades Sabboth are called brothers but Vaevictis Asmadi is called their cousin, that implies an older generation of four dragons, two of them siblings themselves, who could only be elder dragons themselves.
I'm aware of that... I'm pointing out there's absolutely no identification regarding all those Elder Land Wurms. We only know they were all Elder Dragons once, but what were their relationship to the Victorious Five? Were they siblings/cousins as well, or were they from another "brood" not related to them at all?
I'm well aware Bolas and the other 4 definitely weren't the only Elder Dragons and not the originals. My question is who created/produced all the (currently unknown) numbers of Elder Dragons for the wars? There are no names nor identification for these creators/parents, we cannot assume them to be Elder Dragons themselves. Brothers and cousins can also imply given titles the same way the Tarkir Dragonlords get their Elder Titles - except it is a show of alliance between a group of Elder Dragons.
Even if it does turn out Elder Dragons were a biological race, who then created the Original Elder Dragons (Ancestors of Bolas way back)? Were they as unnatural as Ugin's storms then? Well, I thought that Ugin could provide an answer to the actual creation of Elder Dragons, but seeing that it's just a title given for age now, pretty much we can't draw inference from that.
I apologize, I think using Bolas and his generation was a bad idea - just think of the question as a whole "What created the Old Elder Dragons species?" I thought the Neo-Elder-Dragon species could provide some insight on that, but seeing Creative's current stand on it as an age title for Tarkir, not so much now.
I thought it was odd when I first saw it, but I guess can see why they did it. I've been hoping they'd make new legends of the Elder Dragons, but I guess they decided to use the creature type because they'll never use it for a "classic elder dragon" again. So far, I like the FRF versions more. If they are going to re-purpose "Elder," it seems a bit of a waste. I guess it's just a little disappointing. This doesn't bother me nearly as much as the Shandalar Slivers
Since Doug mentioned wanting to distinguish between the regular dragons and the Dragonlords, maybe they went with the Elder characteristic so a card not yet spoiled has an extra effect while targeting them; it would be similar to how Deicide removes all copies of your God enchantment. Not adding God to the Dragonlords has the extra bonus of not having those cards removed from your deck when someone Decides your Dragonlord while Enchanted Evening is out during casual play.
It's not just cleaning out the copies, but any tribal effects. Why do people always want to go hyper competitive for comments when I had already clearly mentioned casual?
Is there anything saying that the original elder dragons were in fact an elder dragon species and not just a dragon species? I mean, perhaps elder was just a title for them to signify their status as rulers and progenitors of dragons on various planes, the same as it is just a title for the Tarkiri dragonlords.
Look at it this way... Lorwyn elves are clearly not the same species as Dominarian elves, yet they're both species of elves. They could have easily called themselves satyr elves and got satyr tribal bonuses, as well as elf bonuses, but they didn't know anything about satyrs on Lorwyn, so they didn't. We know they have a lot in common with satyrs, but they don't, so they won't put themselves in that group. Ok, that's two biological species forming a half-breed and we're talking about a title, so let's look at it another way... On Kamigawa, knights are called samurai. Had they taken the title of knights, they'd get that creature type and get knight tribal bonuses, but they didn't. As a planeswalker summoning a Devoted Retainer, we know he's basically a knight (maybe a soldier, since he has no mount), but an equipped Auriok Steelshaper does nothing to pump it because he doesn't see himself as just a knight or a soldier--he's a samurai.
The same logic can be a applied to Nicol Bolas, the Tarkiri dragonlords, and even Niv-Mizzet. Nicol Bolas still claims the elder title from back during the events surrounding the end of the Dragon War, so that title goes in his type line. The Tarkiri dragonlords have been given, by themselves or by others, the title of elder dragons, so it goes in their type line. Niv-Mizzet needs Ravnica to know only that he is a dragon wizard. Those other vermin flying around with just dragon in their type line, such as Hunted Dragon, are no different than common dragons of other planes with only dragon in their type line, such as Shivan Dragon. The fact that he is also a wizard is enough to convey that he is more than the other dragons of the plane, and being the last intelligent dragon is enough prestige for him. Perhaps he tried to take the title of elder dragon at some point in Ravnica's history and it just didn't stick for being extraneous, or perhaps Bolas showed up to have a little chat with Niv about stealing the thunder of his title (and as someone stated before, perhaps Bolas will have something to say at some point about these new kids taking the title he fought to be the sole bearer of).
At some point, I feel they're really beating around the bush with Ugin and Elder Dragon status. It's been said before, but I'll repeat it as I get to my point. It's not an accident that they created Ugin to look largely similar to Bolas (horns, face shape, elongated torso, location of upper limbs), and they were fighting on Tarkir for what, a few hours or something? I forget what it said in the UR where Sarkhan was watching, but it wasn't a short battle, and it was pre-Mending. That means these two planeswalkers were going tit for tat for a long period of time when planeswalkers were god-like. If that's not indicative of near-equality in terms of power, I don't know what is. Bolas may even have lost, if he hadn't been tricksy like a hobbit and turned Ugin's strength against him at the last minute.
So they've made these five dragonlords Elder Dragons (of Tarkir), fine, like in basketball you can't yell at the ref and make them change the call. What's done is done. But indications are, to me, that Ugin is near enough to an Elder Dragon to be one, since he went toe to toe with Bolas, presumably the most powerful Elder Dragon. If Wizards can make the dragonlords of Tarkir 'Elder Dragons (of Tarkir)' and know that there will be a lot of vitriol coming at them for it, why not make Ugin an Elder Dragon? I mean, it would not require too much retconning of the term and history, compared to creating neo-Elder Dragons. "Hey, there was another survivor who transcended the petty rivalries of his family and went elsewhere to study the Multiverse". The nerd of the Elder Dragons, family outcast, didn't want anything to do with their stupidity, etc. I just feel they're really beating around the bush here with hemming and hawing about whether Ugin is an Elder Dragon. Just rip off the bandaid and say it. When they say "Huh, we never really discussed it", I wear my extremely skeptical face. These guys plan things years in the future, had Ugin designed the way he is, planned for him to fight Bolas for a long while and not die until the last moment, and we're supposed to just be like, yeah, NO one brought this up in a serious way. This wouldn't even be as completely crazy and inexplicable as suddenly sentient Phyrexian oil leaking out of Karn, who transcended his physical form into energy as a pre-Mending planeswalker, but still managed to leak oil (without noticing) on Mirrodin and other possible planes. I think we can at least agree on that.
So if you're going to reintroduce Elder Dragons by having neo-Elder Dragons (of Tarkir), and as we see here a bunch of people at least are upset about that in and of itself, why not just make it complete and say Ugin is one too. In for a penny, in for a pound. What have they got to lose, honestly?
EDIT: Before I get slammed with "OMG UGIN ISN'T AN ELDER DRAGON, HOW MANY TIMES DO I/WE HAVE TO SAY IT", I'm not saying he is (officially), and I've read plenty of the Elder Dragon lore by now. I'm saying that at this point, he's similar enough to be one, and if Wizards isn't worried about creating neo-Elder Dragons, I can't see what's holding them back from just saying "yeah, he is."
I apologize, I think using Bolas and his generation was a bad idea - just think of the question as a whole "What created the Old Elder Dragons species?" I thought the Neo-Elder-Dragon species could provide some insight on that, but seeing Creative's current stand on it as an age title for Tarkir, not so much now.
As far as we can be aware, NATURE "created" the Elder Dragons.
There is simply no reason to make the assumption that they are an artificial race.
EDIT: Before I get slammed with "OMG UGIN ISN'T AN ELDER DRAGON, HOW MANY TIMES DO I/WE HAVE TO SAY IT", I'm not saying he is (officially), and I've read plenty of the Elder Dragon lore by now. I'm saying that at this point, he's similar enough to be one, and if Wizards isn't worried about creating neo-Elder Dragons, I can't see what's holding them back from just saying "yeah, he is."
Basically at this point it'd be even crazier for WotC to say Ugin was not an Elder Dragon, while his offspring is.
Of course, I may be unique, but I rather enjoy having my beliefs challenged and shattered because then I can learn a new perspective.
I get your pain, and I am not saying this is a good move (I think it is, but that's a purely personal opinion). I am merely making the case that WoTC naming these dragons with the "Elder" type isn't ridiculous or blasphemous. They will anger some people, but they will make at least as many happy.
As a game designer, WoTC can't please everyone: they would rather make some people really happy and some really sad then to have everyone be lukewarm in everything, as long as they distribute those peaks among their differing audiences. You may not like this change, but I guarantee you that they have and will make many more cards that will make you happy enough to ignore this.
"God" is a necessary new creature type because no existing creature type could possibly describe beings that are, well, Gods.
"Dragon Elder" sounds right, on that I agree. Except WoTC's formatting system has to be consistent across 10000+ cards in their database for which types must be archived. Thais is why you never see "Wizard Human" or "Soldier Human." It is also why the Kamigawa dragons are "Dragon Spirits," and why, if Ugin is ever printed as a legendary creature and is a Spirit and a Dragon, his type would be "Dragon Spirit," not "Spirit Dragon."
This is WoTC's proprietary formatting system, and they don't make exceptions on creature type.
Could WoTC have simply not used "Elder" in the first place? Perhaps. Should "Dragon Elder" be used instead? Maybe. But the company's typecasting system has certain rules that cannot be broken. Put it this way, if the new dragons are typecast to "Dragon Elder," then the original Elder Dragons must also be retconned to "Dragon Elder" in the oracle text.
Finally, using "Elder Dragon" as the type confuses and even angers some people and I get that. I guarantee you, however, that for every person made angry by this use, at least two are made very happy and excited. And when you are a game designer, that's important.
"Dragon Elder" sounds right, on that I agree. Except WoTC's formatting system has to be consistent across 10000+ cards in their database for which types must be archived. Thais is why you never see "Wizard Human" or "Soldier Human." It is also why the Kamigawa dragons are "Dragon Spirits," and why, if Ugin is ever printed as a legendary creature and is a Spirit and a Dragon, his type would be "Dragon Spirit," not "Spirit Dragon."
I very highly doubt that. Ugin is refered to as a Spirit Dragon literally everywhere and they won't make an exception to that on the typeline. Types are usually ordered in the ways that are most logical sounding. Wizard Human is just very weird and awkward sounding. There is no actual hard rule, as you try to make it sound. They just go with whatever order is the most logical and so far no contradicting case has been brought up.
So in short, their hands weren't tied to making them Elder Dragons instead of Dragon Elders, it's just that they didn't want to.
---
By the way, making them into Dragon Elders may be an even worse decision overall, because it would have been even more jarring and confusing for players. "What, why aren't they just Elder Dragons instead of Dragon Elders? Why is it even important?"
---
Oh and for everyone who says that this is a slap in continuity's face and a grave offense. Let's all take a step back and actually think about it. It's a bit annoying sure, and I personally also don't agree with it, but if you blow this issue out of proportion like this it is very hard to take any future arguments from the Vorthos community seriously at all. If you are so quick to use the superlative, what happens if they actually do something really big?
I cannot remember such an uproar when Mirrodin was retconned to have people back or when Ravnica suddenly went all "lol merfolk". I mean, yes there was an uproar, but it was more like "oh man". The two I listed are probably even bigger things, because those aren't just issues of semantics, unlike the Elder Dragon thing. I mean come on, if you say they are "elder dragons" but not "Elder dragons" it's hard to take the severity of this issue seriously at all. And when you then add "this flies into the face of the ENTIRE prerevisionist continuity" it's hard to see the Vorthos community as anything but a bunch of rambling lunatics.
I think many people are blowing this out of proportion.
Many elves are different than each other. Many Knights are different. Orcs can be radically different from plane to plane. Even dragons can be radically different from plane to plane (feathered wings?). Why would elder dragons get some magical protection? Just because it was only used once? There are many creature types like that; when a 2nd version came out that was different it was OK. This is no different.
Elder Dragons of Dominia are still that. Elder Dragons of Tarkir are what they are. They are different, but they are of the same creature type.
Creature types have always been very rough approximations (e.g. how the mount is never included, the massive differences between creatures of the same type, etc.). I think taking a step back, looking at what creature types really mean (and have meant) may shed some welcomed light on the topic.
Elder Dragons of Dominia are still that. Elder Dragons of Tarkir are what they are. They are different, but they are of the same creature type.
The problem is that they actually aren't the same creature type.
Now, I'm not one that has been ranting about it, I've just expressed annoyance at how convoluted this makes the entire issue. And CLEARLY it is not cut and dry because people don't seem to grok the difference between the two natures of the elder dragons. Your statement alone proves that.
Elder Dragons weren't just older dragons. They were a separate removed species.
The new elder dragons are just older dragons who have accumulated power. This doesn't make them the same ilk as Nicol Bolas despite them having the same creature type.
(and as an aside, Dominia is the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE, so making a distinction of Tarkir and Dominia is sort of like putting a cup into a larger cup)
If it sells, it only means many, many more people like it, even amongst those who knew of the Elder Dragons. The vocal minority is exactly that, a minority. You think the backlash was too big that a distinction must be made. I think the backlash is negligent and only comes from a very vocal minority. Almost everyone in my town who plays magic either doesn't care too much or are excited as hell, and of those many have played since Alpha.
On top of that Lore execution has been arguably better with each set, especially when tying in cards with the stories.
The Elder Dragons were introduced in Legends, and what story did Legends cohesively tell in order to showcase those Dragon? Not much: most of our knowledge of the Elder Dragons didn't come from the cards at all. But now, RtR, Theros, Khans, Innistrad, Scars, and most others have had direct tie ins with the storyline. WoTC has never cared more about lore, and that's a good thing.
WoTC had to distinguish with great clarity the age and power difference in the lore between Silumgar, the Drifting Death and Dragonlord Silumgar. To do that, they need to hammer a difference in creature type that reflect that ascension, and Elder was the best existing creature type to do it. If the creatures didn't have Elder in their type, people can get confused whether the Drifting Death or Dragonlord was supposed to be the more powerful version.
Inventing new creature types means bringing mechanical baggage, actual or potential, and no games should add unnecessary mechanical baggage. The Gods of Theros were necessary to the set, so God as a creature type was necessary. Inventing a new type designation for the Dragonlords is unnecessary, but making the distinction between different iterations of those dragons was necessary, hence Elder being used.
I get some people are salty about what they see is a flavor violation (let's face it, that too is debatable), adhering to flavor on a negligent distinction between elder dragons and Elder Dragons is not worth the cost of unnecessary mechanical baggage, now or in the future.
Elder Dragons weren't just older dragons. They were a separate removed species.
Just like Llanowar elves are a separate removed species from other types of elves. Perhaps this is just my view, but I see the way they treated "elder dragon" the same way they have treated all creatures types.
I look at creature types similar to power and toughness. Sometimes a humanoid has 7 power and something far more gigantic and obviously stronger (by sheer mass alone) has 3. It doesn't make sense but it's important for how the game operates. I think creature types are often poorly defined as well and many don't make total sense but help the game work the way it does. So in a system like this, getting upset about using the term elder dragon might be overdoing it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If Ugin managed to "create" Elder Dragons, he should be more powerful than them, right? Like how Sorin created Avacyn - there's no question who was more powerful. Then how did Ugin manage to get beaten by Nicol Bolas, also an Elder Dragon?
Besides, Ugin was in a cocoon all the while...
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
They have confirmed that the 'Elder' in DTK is simply a description of the fact that they are old. They are not the same as the Elder Dragons from Dominaria.
But working on the assumption that age does equate to power, Bolas and Ugin were already 'Elder' dragons during the events of FRF. If the Neo-Elders have grown to be powerful due to the course of time, the Proto-Elders would have grown even more powerful over that same time (well, Bolas at least - who knows whats going on with Ugin).
Therefore it is a safe assumption that the Neo-Elders are not in the same league as Nicol Bolas at present in terms of power.
Simple. Ugin meets the criteria for being a creator of Elder Dragons by nature of his existence, the same way whatever created Bolas did.
No one said the creators were almighty beings that cannot be killed - Ugin proved that. Had the original creator perished, Bolas wouldn't exist at all, in this case.
Ugin did not create Bolas for sure (took Bolas long enough to even know of Ugin, for starters, whereas the 5 Neo-Elders know Ugin very well). Bolas belongs to another creator, who was around at least over 26,000 years ago. Not all Elder Dragons are created equal, even in the same brood (otherwise Bolas wouldn't have emerged the Victor of his war at all), let alone a Brood with a creator over 26,000 years old and Elder Dragons of 26,000 years versus a creator of less than that.
Since Ugin was not an Elder Dragon of Bolas' Brood (or an Elder Dragon at all), he most likely is the "the creator of the next generation of Elder Dragons". We don't even know whether you have be a Dragon of some form to be qualified as an Elder Dragon creator.
If Bolas knew that the existence of such a being, would he permit that being to exist for long (Yeah, he took a lot of years, but I guess it wasn't that long for Bolas)? Considering the First Dragon War? Of course, we don't know how he found that out, but that's the same question we had since Fate Reforged (How Bolas knew of Ugin, at least - without the implications).
I'm just thinking that this is possible based on what little information we have on Elder Dragons and Bolas' involvement in anything related to them (basically, remove all of them).
I meant it more as an argument that Ugin is not sufficiently powerful to create Elder Dragons, seeing as he is on about the same power level as the only known Elder Dragon before the Tarkir Elder Dragons existed.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
Nothing implies you have to be more powerful than an Elder Dragon (or a squirrel, for that matter) to be able to create dragons that have Elder potential. I mean, Bolas was more powerful than Ugin, but why isn't he naturally creating Dragon Tempests? I think it's a property of Ugin as a creator and his power level does not relate to that.
Personally, I think Ugin belongs to the "Creator" species and transcending color may (or may not) be a criteria, which is why he was naturally attracted to studying the Eldrazi (Well, he wasn't doing it solely for the good of the Multiverse, at least.)
Well that's the thing, in the FRF age when the Dragonlords were young, they were not 'Elder Dragons', they were just dragons. The only thing that has defined them as 'Elder' Dragons is the fact that they are now old.
Think of it this way, if Ugin is responsible for the dragon rifts, which are the means in which dragons are born in Trakir, then the Neo-Elders (along with all the other dragons) are logically his sons and daughters. This means that every Dragon on Tarkir has Elder Dragon heratage, and the potential to grow to be as powerful as Ugin.
The 5 Dragon lords just happen to be the ones who seized the opportunity.
2 things blow this completely apart:
1) The Elder Dragons of old did not evolve from regular dragons. Regular dragons DEVOLVED from them. It went the opposite direction from all sources we know.
2) There is absolutely ZERO evidence that Bolas was "created". In fact, given the fact that he actually had siblings and cousins, that implies a strong biological component, meaning creation is NOT viable.
The Tarkir dragons are, first and foremost, WEIRD anomalies. Every other instance, in the ENTIRE HISTORY of Magic has biological dragons. We can't try and pin correlation from an aberrant source. They are an exception, not a data point to be applied to anything else.
And as a final note, Doug specified they are elders only because of age, and are NOT the same as the previous Elder Dragons.
Actually, it was the first point that encouraged the second - Was it proven that Elder Dragons could even produce other Elder Dragons biologically? All we have are siblings but no parents or children (that aren't lesser Elders or normal Dragons) in the Elder Dragon family chart - it heavily implies Bolas and his siblings/cousins couldn't have been produced biologically, since there has been no species capable of doing so yet revealed - the closest we have are Ugin's abnormal storms. Or did Elder Dragons of old devolve from something even greater?
Ugin is a terrible example, but it's the only one we have, since all Bolas talks about is the war with his siblings, but not so much his parents/creator (whichever is the truth). It's not like we have a whole other wide ranges of Elder Dragon family trees to choose from.
Of course, with Doug's words, it is sort of pointless since on Tarkir you are granted it as an title with age.
You keep ignoring that Bolas and the others were the survivors, the winners of the war. If anything, that implies Bolas fought on the same side as his siblings-and-cousin against other elder dragon factions, and his was the victorious side. There were many other elder dragons. They just all died or where stripped of their wings and their power after the war and became elder land wurms.
So they weren't the only elder dragons originally, and nowhere is said they were the original elders either - in fact, if Nicol Bolas and Arcades Sabboth are called brothers but Vaevictis Asmadi is called their cousin, that implies an older generation of four dragons, two of them siblings themselves, who could only be elder dragons themselves.
I'm aware of that... I'm pointing out there's absolutely no identification regarding all those Elder Land Wurms. We only know they were all Elder Dragons once, but what were their relationship to the Victorious Five? Were they siblings/cousins as well, or were they from another "brood" not related to them at all?
I'm well aware Bolas and the other 4 definitely weren't the only Elder Dragons and not the originals. My question is who created/produced all the (currently unknown) numbers of Elder Dragons for the wars? There are no names nor identification for these creators/parents, we cannot assume them to be Elder Dragons themselves. Brothers and cousins can also imply given titles the same way the Tarkir Dragonlords get their Elder Titles - except it is a show of alliance between a group of Elder Dragons.
Even if it does turn out Elder Dragons were a biological race, who then created the Original Elder Dragons (Ancestors of Bolas way back)? Were they as unnatural as Ugin's storms then? Well, I thought that Ugin could provide an answer to the actual creation of Elder Dragons, but seeing that it's just a title given for age now, pretty much we can't draw inference from that.
I apologize, I think using Bolas and his generation was a bad idea - just think of the question as a whole "What created the Old Elder Dragons species?" I thought the Neo-Elder-Dragon species could provide some insight on that, but seeing Creative's current stand on it as an age title for Tarkir, not so much now.
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)
Look at it this way... Lorwyn elves are clearly not the same species as Dominarian elves, yet they're both species of elves. They could have easily called themselves satyr elves and got satyr tribal bonuses, as well as elf bonuses, but they didn't know anything about satyrs on Lorwyn, so they didn't. We know they have a lot in common with satyrs, but they don't, so they won't put themselves in that group. Ok, that's two biological species forming a half-breed and we're talking about a title, so let's look at it another way... On Kamigawa, knights are called samurai. Had they taken the title of knights, they'd get that creature type and get knight tribal bonuses, but they didn't. As a planeswalker summoning a Devoted Retainer, we know he's basically a knight (maybe a soldier, since he has no mount), but an equipped Auriok Steelshaper does nothing to pump it because he doesn't see himself as just a knight or a soldier--he's a samurai.
The same logic can be a applied to Nicol Bolas, the Tarkiri dragonlords, and even Niv-Mizzet. Nicol Bolas still claims the elder title from back during the events surrounding the end of the Dragon War, so that title goes in his type line. The Tarkiri dragonlords have been given, by themselves or by others, the title of elder dragons, so it goes in their type line. Niv-Mizzet needs Ravnica to know only that he is a dragon wizard. Those other vermin flying around with just dragon in their type line, such as Hunted Dragon, are no different than common dragons of other planes with only dragon in their type line, such as Shivan Dragon. The fact that he is also a wizard is enough to convey that he is more than the other dragons of the plane, and being the last intelligent dragon is enough prestige for him. Perhaps he tried to take the title of elder dragon at some point in Ravnica's history and it just didn't stick for being extraneous, or perhaps Bolas showed up to have a little chat with Niv about stealing the thunder of his title (and as someone stated before, perhaps Bolas will have something to say at some point about these new kids taking the title he fought to be the sole bearer of).
Commander Decks
WDarien, King of KjeldorW - WYomiji, Who Bars the WayW - UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
BPhage the UntouchableB - BShirei,
Shadowborn Ap-Shizo's CaretakerB - RZirilan of the ClawR(W/U)Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper(W/U) - (2/G)Phelddagrif Politics(W/U) - (U/B)Mishra, Artificer Prodigy(U/R) - Karona, God of Voltron
So they've made these five dragonlords Elder Dragons (of Tarkir), fine, like in basketball you can't yell at the ref and make them change the call. What's done is done. But indications are, to me, that Ugin is near enough to an Elder Dragon to be one, since he went toe to toe with Bolas, presumably the most powerful Elder Dragon. If Wizards can make the dragonlords of Tarkir 'Elder Dragons (of Tarkir)' and know that there will be a lot of vitriol coming at them for it, why not make Ugin an Elder Dragon? I mean, it would not require too much retconning of the term and history, compared to creating neo-Elder Dragons. "Hey, there was another survivor who transcended the petty rivalries of his family and went elsewhere to study the Multiverse". The nerd of the Elder Dragons, family outcast, didn't want anything to do with their stupidity, etc. I just feel they're really beating around the bush here with hemming and hawing about whether Ugin is an Elder Dragon. Just rip off the bandaid and say it. When they say "Huh, we never really discussed it", I wear my extremely skeptical face. These guys plan things years in the future, had Ugin designed the way he is, planned for him to fight Bolas for a long while and not die until the last moment, and we're supposed to just be like, yeah, NO one brought this up in a serious way. This wouldn't even be as completely crazy and inexplicable as suddenly sentient Phyrexian oil leaking out of Karn, who transcended his physical form into energy as a pre-Mending planeswalker, but still managed to leak oil (without noticing) on Mirrodin and other possible planes. I think we can at least agree on that.
So if you're going to reintroduce Elder Dragons by having neo-Elder Dragons (of Tarkir), and as we see here a bunch of people at least are upset about that in and of itself, why not just make it complete and say Ugin is one too. In for a penny, in for a pound. What have they got to lose, honestly?
EDIT: Before I get slammed with "OMG UGIN ISN'T AN ELDER DRAGON, HOW MANY TIMES DO I/WE HAVE TO SAY IT", I'm not saying he is (officially), and I've read plenty of the Elder Dragon lore by now. I'm saying that at this point, he's similar enough to be one, and if Wizards isn't worried about creating neo-Elder Dragons, I can't see what's holding them back from just saying "yeah, he is."
There is simply no reason to make the assumption that they are an artificial race.
Basically at this point it'd be even crazier for WotC to say Ugin was not an Elder Dragon, while his offspring is.
I get your pain, and I am not saying this is a good move (I think it is, but that's a purely personal opinion). I am merely making the case that WoTC naming these dragons with the "Elder" type isn't ridiculous or blasphemous. They will anger some people, but they will make at least as many happy.
As a game designer, WoTC can't please everyone: they would rather make some people really happy and some really sad then to have everyone be lukewarm in everything, as long as they distribute those peaks among their differing audiences. You may not like this change, but I guarantee you that they have and will make many more cards that will make you happy enough to ignore this.
"Dragon Elder" sounds right, on that I agree. Except WoTC's formatting system has to be consistent across 10000+ cards in their database for which types must be archived. Thais is why you never see "Wizard Human" or "Soldier Human." It is also why the Kamigawa dragons are "Dragon Spirits," and why, if Ugin is ever printed as a legendary creature and is a Spirit and a Dragon, his type would be "Dragon Spirit," not "Spirit Dragon."
This is WoTC's proprietary formatting system, and they don't make exceptions on creature type.
Could WoTC have simply not used "Elder" in the first place? Perhaps. Should "Dragon Elder" be used instead? Maybe. But the company's typecasting system has certain rules that cannot be broken. Put it this way, if the new dragons are typecast to "Dragon Elder," then the original Elder Dragons must also be retconned to "Dragon Elder" in the oracle text.
Finally, using "Elder Dragon" as the type confuses and even angers some people and I get that. I guarantee you, however, that for every person made angry by this use, at least two are made very happy and excited. And when you are a game designer, that's important.
I very highly doubt that. Ugin is refered to as a Spirit Dragon literally everywhere and they won't make an exception to that on the typeline. Types are usually ordered in the ways that are most logical sounding. Wizard Human is just very weird and awkward sounding. There is no actual hard rule, as you try to make it sound. They just go with whatever order is the most logical and so far no contradicting case has been brought up.
So in short, their hands weren't tied to making them Elder Dragons instead of Dragon Elders, it's just that they didn't want to.
---
By the way, making them into Dragon Elders may be an even worse decision overall, because it would have been even more jarring and confusing for players. "What, why aren't they just Elder Dragons instead of Dragon Elders? Why is it even important?"
---
Oh and for everyone who says that this is a slap in continuity's face and a grave offense. Let's all take a step back and actually think about it. It's a bit annoying sure, and I personally also don't agree with it, but if you blow this issue out of proportion like this it is very hard to take any future arguments from the Vorthos community seriously at all. If you are so quick to use the superlative, what happens if they actually do something really big?
I cannot remember such an uproar when Mirrodin was retconned to have people back or when Ravnica suddenly went all "lol merfolk". I mean, yes there was an uproar, but it was more like "oh man". The two I listed are probably even bigger things, because those aren't just issues of semantics, unlike the Elder Dragon thing. I mean come on, if you say they are "elder dragons" but not "Elder dragons" it's hard to take the severity of this issue seriously at all. And when you then add "this flies into the face of the ENTIRE prerevisionist continuity" it's hard to see the Vorthos community as anything but a bunch of rambling lunatics.
Many elves are different than each other. Many Knights are different. Orcs can be radically different from plane to plane. Even dragons can be radically different from plane to plane (feathered wings?). Why would elder dragons get some magical protection? Just because it was only used once? There are many creature types like that; when a 2nd version came out that was different it was OK. This is no different.
Elder Dragons of Dominia are still that. Elder Dragons of Tarkir are what they are. They are different, but they are of the same creature type.
Creature types have always been very rough approximations (e.g. how the mount is never included, the massive differences between creatures of the same type, etc.). I think taking a step back, looking at what creature types really mean (and have meant) may shed some welcomed light on the topic.
Now, I'm not one that has been ranting about it, I've just expressed annoyance at how convoluted this makes the entire issue. And CLEARLY it is not cut and dry because people don't seem to grok the difference between the two natures of the elder dragons. Your statement alone proves that.
Elder Dragons weren't just older dragons. They were a separate removed species.
The new elder dragons are just older dragons who have accumulated power. This doesn't make them the same ilk as Nicol Bolas despite them having the same creature type.
(and as an aside, Dominia is the ENTIRE MULTIVERSE, so making a distinction of Tarkir and Dominia is sort of like putting a cup into a larger cup)
On top of that Lore execution has been arguably better with each set, especially when tying in cards with the stories.
The Elder Dragons were introduced in Legends, and what story did Legends cohesively tell in order to showcase those Dragon? Not much: most of our knowledge of the Elder Dragons didn't come from the cards at all. But now, RtR, Theros, Khans, Innistrad, Scars, and most others have had direct tie ins with the storyline. WoTC has never cared more about lore, and that's a good thing.
WoTC had to distinguish with great clarity the age and power difference in the lore between Silumgar, the Drifting Death and Dragonlord Silumgar. To do that, they need to hammer a difference in creature type that reflect that ascension, and Elder was the best existing creature type to do it. If the creatures didn't have Elder in their type, people can get confused whether the Drifting Death or Dragonlord was supposed to be the more powerful version.
Inventing new creature types means bringing mechanical baggage, actual or potential, and no games should add unnecessary mechanical baggage. The Gods of Theros were necessary to the set, so God as a creature type was necessary. Inventing a new type designation for the Dragonlords is unnecessary, but making the distinction between different iterations of those dragons was necessary, hence Elder being used.
I get some people are salty about what they see is a flavor violation (let's face it, that too is debatable), adhering to flavor on a negligent distinction between elder dragons and Elder Dragons is not worth the cost of unnecessary mechanical baggage, now or in the future.
Just like Llanowar elves are a separate removed species from other types of elves. Perhaps this is just my view, but I see the way they treated "elder dragon" the same way they have treated all creatures types.
I look at creature types similar to power and toughness. Sometimes a humanoid has 7 power and something far more gigantic and obviously stronger (by sheer mass alone) has 3. It doesn't make sense but it's important for how the game operates. I think creature types are often poorly defined as well and many don't make total sense but help the game work the way it does. So in a system like this, getting upset about using the term elder dragon might be overdoing it.