Why can't we look forward to this, that we get Elder Dragons that aren't dead? First, isn't an age qualifier kind of weird in the first place. I mean really -
Elderly Ultimatum
All Elders you control get +2/+2.
Untap all Wheelchairs you control. They gain trample until end of turn.
I know it's supposed to be like Lords, but I can't get this out of my head. If it's here to stay, I guess I don't care if I see it on other stuff either.
...
Also, the guy who made that video brought up a good point: Wasn't it established in Urza's block that Karn was created because silver was the only thing that could go back in time without being obliterated? Urza did use magic, no, to send Karn back? So how does Sarkhan manage it with Ugin's magic, being biological and not silver? If this was addressed in another forum post somewhere, please excuse my ignorance and point me in that direction.
Urza did use magic to send Karn back in time. Sarkhan only used Ugin's body which acted as a time rift/portal (the similar way when in Time Spiral we saw many legends from the past - alive and not made from silver).
...
Also, the guy who made that video brought up a good point: Wasn't it established in Urza's block that Karn was created because silver was the only thing that could go back in time without being obliterated? Urza did use magic, no, to send Karn back? So how does Sarkhan manage it with Ugin's magic, being biological and not silver? If this was addressed in another forum post somewhere, please excuse my ignorance and point me in that direction.
Urza did use magic to send Karn back in time. Sarkhan only used Ugin's body which acted as a time rift/portal (the similar way when in Time Spiral we saw many legends from the past - alive and not made from silver).
Wait, wat? Is that seriously the official explanation? That doesn't make sense. Time Spiral and legends of the past were like looking through a history book, not pulling them into the present physically via time travel, right?
Time Spiral and legends of the past were like looking through a history book, not pulling them into the present physically via time travel, right?
No, they were physically displaced in time. (for purposes of flavor)
Okay, so what about Sarkhan's trip back? Did they explain how that works yet in comparison to Urza and Karn? From what I recall, it took a lot of energy to send Karn back just a short period of time, and he needed to be silver to survive the trip. I hadn't even thought about that until the video that one person posted.
@Trivmvirate
To become an elder dragon, bolas and his siblings stripped the power of dragons across the multiverse during the draconic wars. Thus creating viashano and wurms. That power they probably kept to themselves. Kinda like in the film One by Jet Li. After decimating the draconic multiverse Bolas' family rose to elder status. Not to mention Elders can pass through planes without the need of a spark. So Bolas being a walker only means he has access to the perks of a walker but not like he needed it. I don't mind Ugin being an elder because if he hid for millenias on Tarkir during the war and spent his time gathering his power from other sources (Blind Eternities or other Tarkir Dragons) then yeah I can kinda see it. But these neo-elder dragons have not done any of that and have simply waited around and became elders.
Also technically Nivmizzet is stronger than them because he has a)lived longer, b)mastered his own form of magic, c)gathered the knowledge of mages for over 2000 years and is said to be nigh indestructible.
By the way, that link and the information there was pretty amazing. Very informative, told me a lot that I didn't already know. It also changed my perception of the Elder Dragons of old. The information seems scattered, and without brave souls like you and others, I don't know how anyone can really know their history these days. It made me view the Elder Dragons as less than something sacred, because even within your link it seemed to be a bit scattered. But at the same time, it shows the significance of the title Elder Dragon. So while people may not know the lore, the meaning behind Elder Dragon transcends the lack of information. People know that King has significance, even if they know nothing about the history of any King in particular. But, if people began to call Counts and Dukes the word King, it diminishes the significance of those who are actually kings. So that's where I get a bit annoyed.
Time Spiral and legends of the past were like looking through a history book, not pulling them into the present physically via time travel, right?
No, they were physically displaced in time. (for purposes of flavor)
Okay, so what about Sarkhan's trip back? Did they explain how that works yet in comparison to Urza and Karn? From what I recall, it took a lot of energy to send Karn back just a short period of time, and he needed to be silver to survive the trip. I hadn't even thought about that until the video that one person posted.
Unfortunately no. When asked about it Doug just put us off saying "we'll explain later" and hinted it should be coming around about the time Sarkhan learns of it in DTK.
Wizards is playing the role of Ojutai. Funny that they created a refection of themselves in the very game we play.
Indeed, just like someone in the other thread said, "Ojutai wasn't lying, it was just his version of history". That's what Wizards actually believe.
The War, the fact that Elder Dragons are a race, that the losers became Elder Land Wurms etc. comes from an old tearaway calendar that is, as far as we know, lost to us
and one big assumption (Piru and Scarzam being Sub-Elders. Lee has later stated that this came not from any official source, but was the consensus opinion of the early storyline forums)
So everything we know about Bolas and the Elders might be lies, a history rewritten by the cabal of strangers. Looks like Ojutai ways are strong here.
I was able to briefly speak to Doug 1 on 1 after the panel.
I've written (to the best of my memory) what we spoke about. Please take it with a grain of salt because I did a LOT that weekend, and I'm not sure anecdotal evidence is the best way to recount something, but I figure it's better than nothing
Basically, with any of the super old lore stuff, creative currently takes it with a grain of salt. A lot of the stuff back then was outsources, and plenty of it was contradictory to other lore being produced.
Furthermore, a lot of fans have over the years filled in the holes with their own headcanons and creative simply won't cater to that if it means stifling the sort of stories they can tell.
Furhtermore, they don't want current magic lore to be held hostage to stuff from twenty years ago because that lore can be problematic, for the reasons I detailed above.
Specifically about the Elder thing, Doug had a few points to make.
Like he said in the panel, R&D wants to do cool things for people, and newer players getting the chance to open elders and be there when elders happened is a cool thing.
One of the other reasons is that they wanted a really clear, straight forward way to illustrate that these versions of the dragonlords are the ones that are older and more powerful than the cards from Fate Reforged. That way players years from now who get ahold of both have a really simple way of telling at a glance which one is more impressive and powerful from a lore standpoint.
I hope some of that helps, and I do want to stress that Doug did ask for feedback on this sort of thing in the post he made on his tumblr about the elders, so feel free to let him know. Respectfully, please.
Let's all remember that we don't know if it was Doug's decision, or if he even had any say in it. If it wasn't then it would be very bad form of him to question the decisions of the company he's working at, especially since he is kind of the spokesperson of creative. Depending on the company, he could even be demoted or fired because of that, because he'd make the company appear in a bad light.
As someone who's working in the game industry myself I'm always appalled at how quick to judge players are. As a player you simply know so little about the decision progress and company structure to accuse any individual of anything. I also work on features that I don't like or even think may make the game worse, but I can't tell my bosses to screw it and do my own stuff. I also can't go out to the public and say "yes, this feature sucks, but my boss liked it". That's not something you do, if you want to keep working there.
Let's all remember that we don't know if it was Doug's decision, or if he even had any say in it. If it wasn't then it would be very bad form of him to question the decisions of the company he's working at, especially since he is kind of the spokesperson of creative. Depending on the company, he could even be demoted or fired because of that, because he'd make the company appear in a bad light.
As someone who's working in the game industry myself I'm always appalled at how quick to judge players are. As a player you simply know so little about the decision progress and company structure to accuse any individual of anything. I also work on features that I don't like or even think may make the game worse, but I can't tell my bosses to screw it and do my own stuff. I also can't go out to the public and say "yes, this feature sucks, but my boss liked it". That's not something you do, if you want to keep working there.
He's not the spokesman, he's the HEAD of creative. He's in charge. Its his call unless word comes down from corporate, which I doubt since corporate wouldn't give a *****. So even if it wasn't his idea, he signed off on it.
And lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it was forced on him. He still had the power to do it in a way that didn't suck. If corporate came down and said "We heard Elder Dragons will sell packs, put them in" he could have at least put in some effort to make it jive with the existing lore. As we've seen in this very thread, it wouldn't have even been hard. Instead, he took the laziest possible course. He deserves the blame. Maybe not all the blame, but most of it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Let's all remember that we don't know if it was Doug's decision, or if he even had any say in it. If it wasn't then it would be very bad form of him to question the decisions of the company he's working at, especially since he is kind of the spokesperson of creative. Depending on the company, he could even be demoted or fired because of that, because he'd make the company appear in a bad light.
I've heard from the grapevine that Brady's involvement with the Tarkir set (and Magic as a whole) was only until Fate Reforged. So take that as you will.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
I could go for them having the creature type "Elderly Dragon", complete with wigs, canes, overly large spectacles, and crocodile(dragon?)-skin handbags.
Would that open us up for a new set of planechase cards including Tarkir Kitchen Buffet? Its chaos effect could be untap every Elderly dragon if playing between 3:30 and 4:30PM?
Elderly Ultimatum
All Elders you control get +2/+2.
Untap all Wheelchairs you control. They gain trample until end of turn.
I know it's supposed to be like Lords, but I can't get this out of my head. If it's here to stay, I guess I don't care if I see it on other stuff either.
Urza did use magic to send Karn back in time. Sarkhan only used Ugin's body which acted as a time rift/portal (the similar way when in Time Spiral we saw many legends from the past - alive and not made from silver).
Wait, wat? Is that seriously the official explanation? That doesn't make sense. Time Spiral and legends of the past were like looking through a history book, not pulling them into the present physically via time travel, right?
Okay, so what about Sarkhan's trip back? Did they explain how that works yet in comparison to Urza and Karn? From what I recall, it took a lot of energy to send Karn back just a short period of time, and he needed to be silver to survive the trip. I hadn't even thought about that until the video that one person posted.
By the way, that link and the information there was pretty amazing. Very informative, told me a lot that I didn't already know. It also changed my perception of the Elder Dragons of old. The information seems scattered, and without brave souls like you and others, I don't know how anyone can really know their history these days. It made me view the Elder Dragons as less than something sacred, because even within your link it seemed to be a bit scattered. But at the same time, it shows the significance of the title Elder Dragon. So while people may not know the lore, the meaning behind Elder Dragon transcends the lack of information. People know that King has significance, even if they know nothing about the history of any King in particular. But, if people began to call Counts and Dukes the word King, it diminishes the significance of those who are actually kings. So that's where I get a bit annoyed.
Indeed, just like someone in the other thread said, "Ojutai wasn't lying, it was just his version of history". That's what Wizards actually believe.
So everything we know about Bolas and the Elders might be lies, a history rewritten by the cabal of strangers. Looks like Ojutai ways are strong here.
I've written (to the best of my memory) what we spoke about. Please take it with a grain of salt because I did a LOT that weekend, and I'm not sure anecdotal evidence is the best way to recount something, but I figure it's better than nothing
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
As someone who's working in the game industry myself I'm always appalled at how quick to judge players are. As a player you simply know so little about the decision progress and company structure to accuse any individual of anything. I also work on features that I don't like or even think may make the game worse, but I can't tell my bosses to screw it and do my own stuff. I also can't go out to the public and say "yes, this feature sucks, but my boss liked it". That's not something you do, if you want to keep working there.
He's not the spokesman, he's the HEAD of creative. He's in charge. Its his call unless word comes down from corporate, which I doubt since corporate wouldn't give a *****. So even if it wasn't his idea, he signed off on it.
And lets give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it was forced on him. He still had the power to do it in a way that didn't suck. If corporate came down and said "We heard Elder Dragons will sell packs, put them in" he could have at least put in some effort to make it jive with the existing lore. As we've seen in this very thread, it wouldn't have even been hard. Instead, he took the laziest possible course. He deserves the blame. Maybe not all the blame, but most of it.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I've heard from the grapevine that Brady's involvement with the Tarkir set (and Magic as a whole) was only until Fate Reforged. So take that as you will.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Modern: (G/U)Infect (G/U)Tron
Legacy: (U/B)Tezzeret (U/B)(W/U)Miracles(W/U)(B/G)Dredge(R/W)
Commander:(U/R)Mizzix (U/R)(W/U)Sydri(U/B)(W/U)Zur(U/B)