Okay, with the new Silumgar's reveal, we now know that the 5 big Dragonlords are going to be elder dragons.
I'm wondering how everyone feels about that.
I was led to believe that Elder dragons were kind of off-limits after the ED wars. Sure, they retroactively said Ugin was an Elder, but Bolas killed him.
I have sooooooooo many questions about what this means for the future of MTG.
so does having this new batch of elders diminish the originals?
and do you think this opens the door for them to make more elder dragons in the future?
and is that a good thing?
and just how powerful should an elder dragon be in relation to a "regular" dragon?
If we look at Tarkir block in a vacuum, the Elder type makes perfect sense. These dragons are now 1280 years older. I can totally get behind them being "elder" within the context of Tarkir.
It's just when we take a step back and look at Magic as a whole that it becomes a problem. Elder comes with a lot of baggage, like the ability to travel between planes (not by being planeswalkers, that's unique to Bolas, but the Elder Dragon Wars spanned worlds), and being the progenitors of the entire dragon species, and absurd levels of power. Let's also take Niv-Mizzet. He's at least 10,000 years old (being a signatory of the original Guildpact and all), yet he doesn't get the Elder type.
What the heck, Wizards? Is elder now fair game for anyone? Are we going to recon Fyndhorn Elder to be Elder Elf Druid? Is Lambholt Elder now an Elder Human Werewolf? Is Elder Spawn now an Elder Spawn?
You know, I, personally, was always in the camp that Ugin being an Elder Dragon would not necessarily break the continuity at all. Sure it's weird we have never heard about him, but only from our perspective. To be honest, I also thought that Ugin would work well as an Elder Dragon due to the pysiological similarities with Bolas.
However, the Tarkir dragonlords have literally nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. I'm not even sure if dragons can "mature" into an Elder form. Is that how it works? Is that how it is supposed to work? And then there's the whole issue that, aside from the typeline, there is literally nothing that sets these apart from regular dragons. Ugin at least kind of looks different, together with Bolas, but these are just big lizards with wings, just like any run-of-the-mill dragon ever.
However, the Tarkir dragonlords have literally nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. I'm not even sure if dragons can "mature" into an Elder form. Is that how it works? Is that how it is supposed to work? And then there's the whole issue that, aside from the typeline, there is literally nothing that sets these apart from regular dragons. Ugin at least kind of looks different, together with Bolas, but these are just big lizards with wings, just like any run-of-the-mill dragon ever.
They're all less "traditional dragon" than the original Elders were, less so than Niv-Mizzet even.
As I understand it however the Elder Dragons are specifically the dragons who emerged victorious from the Elder Dragon Wars on ancient Dominaria, not simply a mark of age. This is a bit like getting Classic Rock mixed up with Classical Greece.
We chose to use the term “Elder” here for a few reasons:
1. As you’ll see as preview season continues on, Dragons of Tarkir contains a lot (!) of dragons. It was crucial to emphasize the importance of these dragonlords — both in the setting, and compared to other dragons in the set. They’re dragons who have risen to become the heads of entire clans. They are revered as wise and awe-inspiring leaders. Their commands are seen almost as divine edicts, even by other dragons. Other than Ugin himself, these dragons are the quintessential elder beings of Tarkir.
2. Similar to the time of the Dominarian Elder Dragons, Tarkir now sees dragons battle one another for supremacy. Silumgar and the other dragon leaders are the most powerful members of massive broods of dragons (it’s thought that the mana of the terrain causes the tempests to spawn “families” of dragons with similar characteristics). Although they do not dwell on Dominaria, these five dragons are worthy of the same term. They are the movers and the shakers of a world full of, and led by, and reverent to, dragons. They are Tarkir’s Elder Dragons.
3. This is a time travel story, and the term “Elder” helps tell part of the ending of that story. Tarkir and these five dragonlords are, in fact, 1280 years older than we saw them last time — it helps point out the difference not only between one legendary Silumgar and the other, but between the middle of the story and its completion. In one word, “Elder” serves to enshrine the story of the way an entire world progressed from an earlier state.
Those were some of the motivations behind the term! So: Cool? Massive betrayal of a nostalgic term? Something in between? Curious to hear what you all think as it all rolls out.
Basically, they chose the term despite the fact that they knew what Elder Dragon means, and they chose it to represent something different. They are called Elder Dragons, but they are NOT the Elder Dragons of old. Basically, they are just elder Dragons.
And yes, for me it is and will be
Massive betrayal of a nostalgic term
.
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I just proposed the whole "Elder Spawn/Elder Elf Druid" thing to Doug, solely to be a jerk and point out how absurd this whole thing is. Massive betrayal of a nostalgic term indeed. It's slivers all over again.
I just proposed the whole "Elder Spawn/Elder Elf Druid" thing to Doug, solely to be a jerk and point out how absurd this whole thing is. Massive betrayal of a nostalgic term indeed. It's slivers all over again.
Indeed. Whats the bloody point of having a 20 year history if they will retcon/mutilate it at will.
I do respect Doug's reasoning though, but the precedent it sets is absolutely disgusting.
However, the Tarkir dragonlords have literally nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. I'm not even sure if dragons can "mature" into an Elder form. Is that how it works? Is that how it is supposed to work? And then there's the whole issue that, aside from the typeline, there is literally nothing that sets these apart from regular dragons. Ugin at least kind of looks different, together with Bolas, but these are just big lizards with wings, just like any run-of-the-mill dragon ever.
They're all less "traditional dragon" than the original Elders were, less so than Niv-Mizzet even.
As I understand it however the Elder Dragons are specifically the dragons who emerged victorious from the Elder Dragon Wars on ancient Dominaria, not simply a mark of age. This is a bit like getting Classic Rock mixed up with Classical Greece.
The Elder Dragon Wars took place in Dominia, not Dominaria (a common mistake since they look so similar, also why the multiverse was renamed). So, the issue here is that it's established lore that Nicol Bolas and the other 4-5 Elder Dragons were the last of their kind. Other Elder Dragons were killed, dismembered or stripped of their powers. That's all other Elder Dragons. Across all of the multiverse. Hence why the wording is upsetting some folks. It basically un-does a lot of established lore.
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Just piping in, as a huge fan of Darigaaz, I think the five dragon legends from Invasion fall neatly into the description/explanation Doug described. And yet I doubt they'll be retconned into being Elder Dragons, as defined now by the Tarkir dragonlords. Why not Dragon Lord, by the by? I did a search for subtype 'Lord' on Gatherer, and hilariously got this result: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74251 I might've messed up the link there, but anyway.
That seems to be the only Lord. So why not just go with Dragon Lord? They're already calling them that, no? I can think of many short synonyms that would get the same message across, instead of 'Elder'.
And yet, lots of people are liking it. We cannot strip Rule Of Cool powers...
My reasoning:
Something in between, going for cool. It’s not easy to understand what was a Elder Dragon before, with history in the books. At most, we had wikis and other fan-sites up with interpretation of that material.
But now we have new Elder Dragons, with an reachable explanation of why they’re elder. And with what beying elder implies.
So, I think elder is nice. Not that I’m expecting a new Elder Dragon next set, but maybe on the next 15 years…
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That seems to be the only Lord. So why not just go with Dragon Lord? They're already calling them that, no? I can think of many short synonyms that would get the same message across, instead of 'Elder'.
The "Lord" creature type is no longer supported and got errata'd from all the (black bordered) cards that had them.
Considering that the Elder Dragon Wars lore is ancient and was practically a footnote even when it was created, I don't have a problem with this.
This is different from Phyrexians and slivers. Phyrexia had a massive impact on the story and game, the slivers weren't unimportant, and both of them keep showing up even in Modern-era sets. Comparatively, the average 1994 player looking through Legends packs would have no idea of the relevance of the Elder Dragon Wars, and would not attribute any meaning to the word "Elder" other than a cool-seeming signifier.
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Weren't the Elder Dragon Wars Pre-revisionist anyway? The negativity to Tarkir's story the last few weeks has been surprisingly high from this forum. I've enjoyed the block both game wise and story wise a lot, and this seems totally fine too.
Considering that the Elder Dragon Wars lore is ancient and was practically a footnote even when it was created, I don't have a problem with this.
This is different from Phyrexians and slivers. Phyrexia had a massive impact on the story and game, the slivers weren't unimportant, and both of them keep showing up even in Modern-era sets. Comparatively, the average 1994 player looking through Legends packs would have no idea of the relevance of the Elder Dragon Wars, and would not attribute any meaning to the word "Elder" other than a cool-seeming signifier.
It honestly wouldn't be that bad if not for the fact that Nicol Bolas is still a thing and casts a very real shadow across the story.
I thought Wizards were wiser but no, they just killed part of uniqueness of Nicol Bolas).
They didn't really kill it so much as confused the matter. It's not elegant and I'm certainly miffed with the decision, but I'm finding it hard to be really mad. I am deeply deeply annoyed though.
I thought Wizards were wiser but no, they just killed part of uniqueness of Nicol Bolas).
They didn't really kill it so much as confused the matter. It's not elegant and I'm certainly miffed with the decision, but I'm finding it hard to be really mad. I am deeply deeply annoyed though.
Kinda where I'm at. It's a bit like printing Return to Zendikar and calling the Eldrazi titans "Eldrazi Gods". It sort of works in the context of the plane, but the term "God" has a very specific flavor and mechanical meaning now, and giving it to any old creature referred to as godlike takes away from how special the Theros gods were.
It's also certainly not elegant that the two true living Elder Dragons in the storyline, Ugin and Nicol Bolas, aren't referred to as elder dragons in their planeswalker cards, but these five are. Can't help but think there could have been other flavorful type lines that were less problematic.
It's also certainly not elegant that the two true living Elder Dragons in the storyline, Ugin and Nicol Bolas, aren't referred to as elder dragons in their planeswalker cards, but these five are. Can't help but think there could have been other flavorful type lines that were less problematic.
Maybe the story line for DoT will be Bolas coming in and saying "So you're elder dragons are you?" and then wipes them out... That would be cool...
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I thought Wizards were wiser but no, they just killed part of uniqueness of Nicol Bolas).
They didn't really kill it so much as confused the matter. It's not elegant and I'm certainly miffed with the decision, but I'm finding it hard to be really mad. I am deeply deeply annoyed though.
What I thought by that part is that by printing "Elder Dragon" on non-Elder-Dragons there is clear loss of meaning/fact "Nicol Bolas is the last survivor of ancient race of dragons" (yes I can know it from 20-years-old stories but if I were a new player, I would have almost no possibility to find this out without systematic research - which is biggest problem with this(for me)).
I would also say I'm finding it hard to be really mad, rather I am really sad they did that. (I would still say they killed "The last Elder Dragon" for new players)
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Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
And yet, lots of people are liking it. We cannot strip Rule Of Cool powers...
My reasoning:
Something in between, going for cool. It’s not easy to understand what was a Elder Dragon before, with history in the books. At most, we had wikis and other fan-sites up with interpretation of that material.
But now we have new Elder Dragons, with an reachable explanation of why they’re elder. And with what beying elder implies.
So, I think elder is nice. Not that I’m expecting a new Elder Dragon next set, but maybe on the next 15 years…
The rule of cool is a trap that kills long term storylines and franchises. Maro is actually aware of this, which is why he constantly emphasizes not giving players what they want if its bad for the game. The more retconning you do, and the more often you do it, the worse it is for the story. Willy nilly use of terms that are loaded with meaning, like Elder Dragon, may seem cool, but it not only lessens the value of the term, but leads readers to assign less importance to other loaded terms, because it signals that those in charge of the story either don't care, or aren't talented enough to spin a tale worth caring about. You set up rules in a story so the reader can form expectations, and if you break the rules too often the reader stops caring, and the dumber your story looks. You can do it every once in a while, but only when it is necessary or else you'll cheapen the franchise. Now, to clarify, when I say reader expectations, I don't mean how they expect the story to play out, I mean how they expect the story to follow its own internal logic and to remain consistent. Star Wars fans hated midichlorians because the long established logic behind the force was that it was a magical connection between all things. Midichlorians violated that logic for no good reason, and that pissed off fans. Magic's storyline has done that with increasing frequency. Retconning for no good reason, and with no good payoff, pisses off dedicated fans far more than it woos new fans.
Rules and internal logic are important for creating tension and suspension of disbelief. You care that Han Solo is being lowered into the chamber to be frozen in carbonite, because he can't just force jump out of the pit and punch Vader in the throat. If he suddenly did, despite not having that ability previously, the movie would suck. You care that Frodo has to walk to Mount Doom, because he has to cross dangerous territory, and the Ring's invisibility won't hide him from Sauron. If he found a magic portal in the Grey Marshes to take him there, the story would suck. Harry Potter would suck if there was a spell to just kill Voldemort that Harry could cast from his Aunt and Uncle's house before playing some Xbox. Rule of cool too often is an excuse to allow lazy writers to do something they want without having it make sense. Rule of cool gave us pod racing. People loved it at first, then turned on it, because while it was a cool idea, Lucas didn't put the work into justifying it. Had there been a better set up and presentation, it would have worked. Had it been a side project, it would have worked. Rule of Cool gave us Jar Jar, because wouldn't it be cool to have an all CGI main character? Had he put the work into justifying it, it would have been, but he trusted its innate coolness, and failed.
Doug's justification boils down to "its cool", but its really just lazy. They could have justified it by saying that they are now actual Elder Dragons, having siphoned power from the tempests to approach the strength of the original Elders, but no, that would have required work and commitment.
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For Akki_Akki, Its fine. This one time Akki_Akki will personally let the Rule of Cool go by scott-free. Normally outrage but as long as they didn't expand beyond the now seven alive from two Elder Dragons, Akki_Akki feels it is fine. If more did get printed Akki_Akki will expect those even newer Elder Dragons to be printed ten years minimum from now and even then that would be way too soon for Akki_Akki's liking.
Akki_Akki will agree it is a bit lazy, about as lazy as elder dragon Silumgar for comparison. Though to be blunt and honest, Akki_Akki actually enjoyed seeing the type line Elder Dragon on Silumgar as it actually made Akki_Akki smile. It was a mixture of a Christmas Present and a Nostalgia Boom. Akki_Akki agree that if their type line was Dragon Elder it would be much more fine. Even if they were Elder Dragon, Akki_Akki personally like Onering's explanation of "...having siphoned power from the tempests to approach the strength of the original Elders...". Which feels a lot more plausible.
As a long-time story fan and one-time continuity guru, I can't say I care. Overall, the story is getting a much better treatment as of late, is being told cohesively, and we're getting wonderful worlds out of it. So they used the creature type "Elder Dragon"--we all know that this is not an Elder Dragon from the Dragon Wars any more than an akki goblin is a Dominarian or Mirran goblin.
The Elder Wars are steeped in shadows anyway. Yes we have the Elders, but then we get the five dragon lords from Dragons of Magic as well as the Primevals. There is enough dragon diversity that calling a few more dragons Elder Dragons is not hurting anyone.
It's clear that the time travel and dragon business is upsetting to some fans. Perhaps a decade ago I would have had a different view. Today, I take it in stride, and am pleased with the general direction of continuity. No, we don't get novels anymore, but we're arguably getting a greater output and a better balance on the cards. Yes, some things have been tweaked, but WotC has been tweaking prerevision since Grubb's Brothers' War (the comics and the novel don't match--and Jedit's story doesn't match with the comics either--and neither does Grubb's Eternal Ice).
I think sometimes we let our knowledge of continuity let us develop a chip on our shoulder. Let's enjoy the story and allow WotC to continue to develop their brand (cards, games, experience, community, etc.).
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I'm wondering how everyone feels about that.
I was led to believe that Elder dragons were kind of off-limits after the ED wars. Sure, they retroactively said Ugin was an Elder, but Bolas killed him.
I have sooooooooo many questions about what this means for the future of MTG.
so does having this new batch of elders diminish the originals?
and do you think this opens the door for them to make more elder dragons in the future?
and is that a good thing?
and just how powerful should an elder dragon be in relation to a "regular" dragon?
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It's just when we take a step back and look at Magic as a whole that it becomes a problem. Elder comes with a lot of baggage, like the ability to travel between planes (not by being planeswalkers, that's unique to Bolas, but the Elder Dragon Wars spanned worlds), and being the progenitors of the entire dragon species, and absurd levels of power. Let's also take Niv-Mizzet. He's at least 10,000 years old (being a signatory of the original Guildpact and all), yet he doesn't get the Elder type.
What the heck, Wizards? Is elder now fair game for anyone? Are we going to recon Fyndhorn Elder to be Elder Elf Druid? Is Lambholt Elder now an Elder Human Werewolf? Is Elder Spawn now an Elder Spawn?
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However, the Tarkir dragonlords have literally nothing to do with the Elder Dragons. I'm not even sure if dragons can "mature" into an Elder form. Is that how it works? Is that how it is supposed to work? And then there's the whole issue that, aside from the typeline, there is literally nothing that sets these apart from regular dragons. Ugin at least kind of looks different, together with Bolas, but these are just big lizards with wings, just like any run-of-the-mill dragon ever.
They're all less "traditional dragon" than the original Elders were, less so than Niv-Mizzet even.
As I understand it however the Elder Dragons are specifically the dragons who emerged victorious from the Elder Dragon Wars on ancient Dominaria, not simply a mark of age. This is a bit like getting Classic Rock mixed up with Classical Greece.
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Basically, they chose the term despite the fact that they knew what Elder Dragon means, and they chose it to represent something different. They are called Elder Dragons, but they are NOT the Elder Dragons of old. Basically, they are just elder Dragons.
And yes, for me it is and will be
.
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Indeed. Whats the bloody point of having a 20 year history if they will retcon/mutilate it at will.
I do respect Doug's reasoning though, but the precedent it sets is absolutely disgusting.
The Elder Dragon Wars took place in Dominia, not Dominaria (a common mistake since they look so similar, also why the multiverse was renamed). So, the issue here is that it's established lore that Nicol Bolas and the other 4-5 Elder Dragons were the last of their kind. Other Elder Dragons were killed, dismembered or stripped of their powers. That's all other Elder Dragons. Across all of the multiverse. Hence why the wording is upsetting some folks. It basically un-does a lot of established lore.
That seems to be the only Lord. So why not just go with Dragon Lord? They're already calling them that, no? I can think of many short synonyms that would get the same message across, instead of 'Elder'.
My reasoning:
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The "Lord" creature type is no longer supported and got errata'd from all the (black bordered) cards that had them.
This is different from Phyrexians and slivers. Phyrexia had a massive impact on the story and game, the slivers weren't unimportant, and both of them keep showing up even in Modern-era sets. Comparatively, the average 1994 player looking through Legends packs would have no idea of the relevance of the Elder Dragon Wars, and would not attribute any meaning to the word "Elder" other than a cool-seeming signifier.
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It honestly wouldn't be that bad if not for the fact that Nicol Bolas is still a thing and casts a very real shadow across the story.
Kinda where I'm at. It's a bit like printing Return to Zendikar and calling the Eldrazi titans "Eldrazi Gods". It sort of works in the context of the plane, but the term "God" has a very specific flavor and mechanical meaning now, and giving it to any old creature referred to as godlike takes away from how special the Theros gods were.
It's also certainly not elegant that the two true living Elder Dragons in the storyline, Ugin and Nicol Bolas, aren't referred to as elder dragons in their planeswalker cards, but these five are. Can't help but think there could have been other flavorful type lines that were less problematic.
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Ugin is not actually confirmed as an Elder Dragon.
Doug talked about the fact that they hadn't really talked about it, and never came to a decision one way or another.
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/108287169989/i-noticed-that-in-the-planeswalkers-guide-to-fate
So, Ugin might be an elder Dragon, but it's not a given that he is an Elder Dragon.
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This. A thousand times this.
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I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
The rule of cool is a trap that kills long term storylines and franchises. Maro is actually aware of this, which is why he constantly emphasizes not giving players what they want if its bad for the game. The more retconning you do, and the more often you do it, the worse it is for the story. Willy nilly use of terms that are loaded with meaning, like Elder Dragon, may seem cool, but it not only lessens the value of the term, but leads readers to assign less importance to other loaded terms, because it signals that those in charge of the story either don't care, or aren't talented enough to spin a tale worth caring about. You set up rules in a story so the reader can form expectations, and if you break the rules too often the reader stops caring, and the dumber your story looks. You can do it every once in a while, but only when it is necessary or else you'll cheapen the franchise. Now, to clarify, when I say reader expectations, I don't mean how they expect the story to play out, I mean how they expect the story to follow its own internal logic and to remain consistent. Star Wars fans hated midichlorians because the long established logic behind the force was that it was a magical connection between all things. Midichlorians violated that logic for no good reason, and that pissed off fans. Magic's storyline has done that with increasing frequency. Retconning for no good reason, and with no good payoff, pisses off dedicated fans far more than it woos new fans.
Rules and internal logic are important for creating tension and suspension of disbelief. You care that Han Solo is being lowered into the chamber to be frozen in carbonite, because he can't just force jump out of the pit and punch Vader in the throat. If he suddenly did, despite not having that ability previously, the movie would suck. You care that Frodo has to walk to Mount Doom, because he has to cross dangerous territory, and the Ring's invisibility won't hide him from Sauron. If he found a magic portal in the Grey Marshes to take him there, the story would suck. Harry Potter would suck if there was a spell to just kill Voldemort that Harry could cast from his Aunt and Uncle's house before playing some Xbox. Rule of cool too often is an excuse to allow lazy writers to do something they want without having it make sense. Rule of cool gave us pod racing. People loved it at first, then turned on it, because while it was a cool idea, Lucas didn't put the work into justifying it. Had there been a better set up and presentation, it would have worked. Had it been a side project, it would have worked. Rule of Cool gave us Jar Jar, because wouldn't it be cool to have an all CGI main character? Had he put the work into justifying it, it would have been, but he trusted its innate coolness, and failed.
Doug's justification boils down to "its cool", but its really just lazy. They could have justified it by saying that they are now actual Elder Dragons, having siphoned power from the tempests to approach the strength of the original Elders, but no, that would have required work and commitment.
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Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Akki_Akki will agree it is a bit lazy, about as lazy as elder dragon Silumgar for comparison. Though to be blunt and honest, Akki_Akki actually enjoyed seeing the type line Elder Dragon on Silumgar as it actually made Akki_Akki smile. It was a mixture of a Christmas Present and a Nostalgia Boom. Akki_Akki agree that if their type line was Dragon Elder it would be much more fine. Even if they were Elder Dragon, Akki_Akki personally like Onering's explanation of "...having siphoned power from the tempests to approach the strength of the original Elders...". Which feels a lot more plausible.
The Elder Wars are steeped in shadows anyway. Yes we have the Elders, but then we get the five dragon lords from Dragons of Magic as well as the Primevals. There is enough dragon diversity that calling a few more dragons Elder Dragons is not hurting anyone.
It's clear that the time travel and dragon business is upsetting to some fans. Perhaps a decade ago I would have had a different view. Today, I take it in stride, and am pleased with the general direction of continuity. No, we don't get novels anymore, but we're arguably getting a greater output and a better balance on the cards. Yes, some things have been tweaked, but WotC has been tweaking prerevision since Grubb's Brothers' War (the comics and the novel don't match--and Jedit's story doesn't match with the comics either--and neither does Grubb's Eternal Ice).
I think sometimes we let our knowledge of continuity let us develop a chip on our shoulder. Let's enjoy the story and allow WotC to continue to develop their brand (cards, games, experience, community, etc.).
I don't have a problem with it. They're elder dragons of Tarkir, that now have come to define the plane to a degree in this timeline.
If anything's annoying, it's how cheeky it's being about "Heeeey, put me in your EDH deck!"
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.