Pretty sad but what can I say - WotC is a company and would be more interested in repeating a known success than the creative venture of doing right by one of their previous failed designs, regardless of the latent and unrealized potential it had all along.
I think its more like Wizard is a company trying to make money first and for most and if you did something that wasn't as profitable as you like it to be then chances are you won't do it again.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Part of the issue with Kamigawa is that the story was wrapped up. There are several planes where there is basically a cliff hanger that people want a finished story to. Kamigawa is not one of them.
No, but we have not seen Kamigawa in thousands of years. It would be interesting to see what Kamigawa is like now, in the times of Tamiyo.
True enough. Ive got nothing against going to Kamigawa just wanted to point out that inaddition to the general dislike of the plane by the player base creative also has a reason to not go to it *at least not for a while.*
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
Kamigawa is still my favorite block even after ten years, and the plane is one of my all-time favorite fantasy settings (Kamitake Falls may be the most gorgeous spot in the Multiverse). Despite the block's overall low power, the flavor, the worldbuilding, and the characters were phenomenal to a degree that Magic hasn't matched since. I thought the mechanics were fun, but then again I never play Kamigawa with any other block. Toshi remains my favorite Magic protagonist, and Konda is still one of Magic's best-written Big Bads.
If Magic returned to Kamigawa and didn't taint it with Phyrexians or Eldrazi (which are cool, but Kamigawa is "pure" in a way and exists best in its own bubble), I would personally buy enough product to ensure yet another sequel.
One of the things that just kills me is that for the past 6 years I've been traveling extensively for school and playing magic all over the country. I rarely run into people who don't have nice things to say about Kamigawa and I can't help but wonder if this whole "It wasn't well liked" story is just Bologna. I know that when the set was brand new, we had more people coming into my old LGS than we ever had before, and they were all there for Draft of Kamigawa. I loved the set, and really miss playing during it. Whatever the real reason is that WOTC doesn't want to revisit it, I hope they keep it open for consideration. Also, just to note, there have been a ton of new players that have entered the game in the years since Kamigawa and opinions and attitudes of new players are different from those that were playing in the early 2000s.
One of the things that just kills me is that for the past 6 years I've been traveling extensively for school and playing magic all over the country. I rarely run into people who don't have nice things to say about Kamigawa and I can't help but wonder if this whole "It wasn't well liked" story is just Bologna. I know that when the set was brand new, we had more people coming into my old LGS than we ever had before, and they were all there for Draft of Kamigawa. I loved the set, and really miss playing during it. Whatever the real reason is that WOTC doesn't want to revisit it, I hope they keep it open for consideration. Also, just to note, there have been a ton of new players that have entered the game in the years since Kamigawa and opinions and attitudes of new players are different from those that were playing in the early 2000s.
Bingo. I'd like them to repeat the poll for modern audiences. For Lowryn too. The only complaint I've heard about Kamigawa was it having lower power cards alongside a far more power creeped block that evidently nearly killed Magic. At least in the words of those from my locals who were around for it. My only complaint about it was the abstract Kami art looking ugly instead of elegant as it could have (Spirits of Innistrad were beautiful in their own way for example). A revisit focusing on Moonfolk, Samurai, Ninjas, Orochi, etc. has potential as I see it - at least as a supplemental product. But I've resigned trying to voice this opinion to MaRo and WOTC because for whatever reason, it's just not happening. I can just hope we'd see more of Kamigawa before revisiting the worst plane of all, Ravnica, again. That would just be awful. At this rate I'm content to hope for a Return to Zendikar and an Arixmethes card at some point. As crazy as it is, they both seem more likely than RTK. Also, agreed about the Kamitaki Falls being one of the most gorgeous spots in the Multiverse (it's tied for best with some other locations though).
One of the problems Maro said with Kamigawa was the weird names. I never thought it was a problem as I never paid attention to the names, just the card text, and I only played with the 12 precons anyway, but I can understand how it is difficult to memorize the cards because of the weird names.
I don't like this "we did it wrong, therefore we won't do it again" vibe that WOTC has.
It's too late though, even if they did fix Kamigawa, it wouldn't be Kamigawa unless it had the abstract spirit art, and the weird names.
Sadly, they just had a set based on spirits with quite a heavy presence of legendary characters with a story arc that traveled between the realm of the material and the spiritual. If you look at Hokori, Dust Drinker, that creature should probably have been an Enchantment Creature. I think the uses of spirits has basically been consumed by Theros with the Eidolons. Everything that could have been salvaged from Kamigawa has been slotted into Theros besides the distinct vibe of Kamigawa. I just don't think they would discard the themes in order to salvage the story and setting of the plane besides in supplemental sets like Planechase or maybe something akin to Conspiracy.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
One thing to remmeber is that Wizards is a company. They are out to make money, not make a fringe group of players happy by bringing back a generally poorly received setting back. I believe that Wizards does their fair amount of research into this matter, after all it's in their best interest to analyse their playerbase and the market. What the people here bring up is circumstantial evidence at best and personal opinion at worst.
The thing is that WotC does not like to take unnecessary risks. Kamgiawa has been poorly received the first time, due to multiple reasons. Why would they bring something back that left a bad taste in the players' mouth? And no, saying "But I liked it." doesn't cut it, because there is literally someone for everything that they like. It's just a risk for WotC that will likely cost them money. It's easy for you to say that they should bring back Kamigawa, but making a post on the internet takes literally no effort and is completely free, but if Wizards fails with a whole block, they'll lose a crapton of money.
Additionally it should be noted it's not only about the designers and creative people. The stakeholders of the company also have something to say. And they sure as hell will not bring back something that the majority of the players didn't like the first time. At least not without a reason.
I can see Kamigawa appearing here and there in supplemental products, but I'm not holding my breath for a return to Kamigawa block in the foreseeable future.
keep in mind I'm not so up on the idea of running back to Kamigawa. But a Japanese themed set would be great! I'm not sure a "Legendary" or "Spirit" focus would be all that great, but perhaps more focus on Ninja, Samurai, etc.
It would be cool to do something where they introduce a world, and it turned out to be Kamigawa in the end, Planet of the Apes style. They did try to do something like this, with Phyrexia and Mirrodin, but they chickened out.
It would be cool to do something where they introduce a world, and it turned out to be Kamigawa in the end, Planet of the Apes style. They did try to do something like this, with Phyrexia and Mirrodin, but they chickened out.
Akki_Akki thinks...
That would be very hard to do. Ignoring words and names, stuff like: scenery, armor, weapons, serpentine wingless flying dragons, architecture, native races... those be unique to Kamigawa.
Best bet is another supplemental product like Planechase 2015 or Commander 2015 or Archenemy 2015.
Akki_Akki think this because Planechase allows for plane hopping which gives them an excuse to print some new cards or old cards from Kamigawa in addition to other planes like "All You Can Eat Buffet" and if there is still more room they could include also more specific places on the Plane like how there is Sokenzan.
Commander because after the set Legends was when Kamigawa really did make tons of cool and unique Legends, some seeing more play than others and Legends are now regarded as cool "Build-Around-Me" cards that have their own exclusive format.
Archenemy can be used to as a framing device to capture the feel of Kamigawa with various new Scheme cards and non-scheme cards.
The fourth point to make on supplemental products is that it doesn't have to be the entire product is Kamigawa themed, it could be just isolated to 1:5 or 1:4 different products within a line like how there was five different decks for Commander 2014.
Only way we are heading back to Kamigawa is if Akki_Akki's homeplane gets invaded or the plane itself was falling apart or that Kamigawa was losing mana. There needs to be strife for us to return to a specific block like Return to Ravnica or Scars of Mirrodin. There must always be a new problem.
Akki_Akki personally would despise heading back to Ravnica a third time.
If they did a return to Kamigawa, I don't know what people would complain about more? If Return to Kamigawa stayed to its roots, would people complain about how it still suck more than if Kamigawa improved in some way and people complain that it didn't stay to its roots?
If they did a return to Kamigawa, I don't know what people would complain about more? If Return to Kamigawa stayed to its roots, would people complain about how it still suck more than if Kamigawa improved in some way and people complain that it didn't stay to its roots?
If Return to Kamigawa did happen, Akki_Akki thinks the question would be like what you pointed out Signofzeta.
Akki_Akki? Akki_Akki want a mixture of it staying close to its roots on what worked and to drift away from what didn't work. The various races like Akki (Goblins), Moonfolk, Orochi (Snakes), Nezumi (Rats), Kitsune (Foxes) Akki_Akki feels worked well to its favor and flavor.
Another thing about Kamigawa is the weird names and weird art. Would Kamigawa be Kamigawa without weird names and weird art? Have you seen the art for the spirits?
If WOTC was a sports team general manager. They would always rebuild a failing team no matter what, or a team that would fire the coach and trade away all the players when the team is on a losing streak.
"Asian setting block failed to make playoffs or is on losing streak"
FIRE THE COACH AND REBUILD
result is Tarkir.
Prepare for 15 more years of disappointment Kamigawa fans. It seems bleak that they will return to the plane of Leafs.
There is a slight diference though. One sucks, is hated except by a niche group, and is not making money, and the other sucks, is hated except by a niche group, and is making tons of money.
C'mon guys, we have to stick with Kamigawa through thick and thin. Don't be like those Ravnica bandwagoners.
Off topic, but since I am already making a sports analogy, I noticed something when someone tries to defend a bad product.
In the geek culture, if someone tries so hard to defend a product or company, and that product sucked, they are called loser fanboys, and they are expected to bail to the more popular product.
In the sports culture, if someone tries so hard to defend a team, and that team sucked, they are passionate for their team, and those who bail are loser bandwagoners.
So are you Kamigawa fanboys, or passionate about Kamigawa? You decide.
Another thing about Kamigawa is the weird names and weird art. Would Kamigawa be Kamigawa without weird names and weird art? Have you seen the art for the spirits?
If WOTC was a sports team general manager. They would always rebuild a failing team no matter what.
"Asian setting block failed to make playoffs and is trending downwards"
REBUILD
result is Tarkir.
Akki_Akki think strange artwork fine. Akki_Akki agree that the names especially at Common rarity made for clunky game.
Whats interests Akki_Akki is you can actually correlate Tarkir directly to an earlier Blogatog post that came out on November 8, 2013. A few months shy of a full year before KTK.
Quote from blekkja »
Q: Instead of a return to Kamigawa, or Japanese Plane 2, could we please instead have a Chinese, Korean, Mongolian, Thai, Vietnamese, Indian, Middle Eastern, Indonesian, or Polynesian Plane? Or a combination of 2 or more of those if it makes sense? Though I'm not opposed to Magic reusing Japanese inspiration if done right, those who are into it already have the option of buying Kamigawa singles and putting together themed decks and Asia is so much wider in scope than one country/region!
A: Okay Question Marks, two questions.
1) Would you like to see an Asian-themed (non-Japanese) plane?
2) If so, which culture are you most interested in?
Tarkir has several of these themes in spades. Sultai has some Eastern Indian from what Akki_Akki can tell, Mardu appears to be Chinese mixed with Mongolian, Abzan is clearly Middle Eastern, Jeskai seem to be based on Tibetan culture, Temur seem to be Mongolian mixed with Huns.
Well, there is no Kami war. So Kamigawa could focus on Ninjas, Nezumi, Moonfolk/Soratami, etc. rather than have abstract art. And what is so wrong with names like Asuza, Lost But Seeking, or Azami, Lady of Scrolls? Or Kaho? Really?
Well, there is no Kami war. So Kamigawa could focus on Ninjas, Nezumi, Moonfolk/Soratami, etc. rather than have abstract art. And what is so wrong with names like Asuza, Lost But Seeking, or Azami, Lady of Scrolls? Or Kaho? Really?
I have no problems with them too, but I read somewhere, forgot where, that people had trouble associating the name of the card with the ability because the names were weird. I do have to say when you try to memorize all the names, it tends to get tough.
Well, there is no Kami war. So Kamigawa could focus on Ninjas, Nezumi, Moonfolk/Soratami, etc. rather than have abstract art. And what is so wrong with names like Asuza, Lost But Seeking, or Azami, Lady of Scrolls? Or Kaho? Really?
Akki_Akki thinks...
As legends/rares/mythics such names are fine. Its when you get bombarded at common and to an extent uncommon when it might be considered a tiny problem.
Theros did it proper by keeping many of the harder pronounce words away from Common Rarity as much as possible.
EDIT:
Akki_Akki will admit... there was a small problem with memory regarding how things and peoples were named. Untaidake, Cloud Keeper. Is it a legendary creature? A artifact? A enchantment? A land? Without prior knowledge to what Untaidake was (land, tallest mountain point in all Sokenzan), Akki_Akki would swear all across Sokenzan that Untaidake, Cloud Keeper was a creature.
There could be a different Kami war. Like some humans followed Konda's footstep and started trapping/enslaving Kamis. Like trapping/binding a fire Kami to a sword to make it spit out flames or be a fire sword. To the mundane of trapping/binding a lantern Kami into a glass bottle effectively creating a light bulb or a flashlight (w/o burning fossil fuels to boot ).
There could be a different Kami war. Like some humans followed Konda's footstep and started trapping/enslaving Kamis. Like trapping/binding a fire Kami to a sword to make it spit out flames or be a fire sword. To the mundane of trapping/binding a lantern Kami into a glass bottle effectively creating a light bulb or a flashlight (w/o burning fossil fuels to boot ).
A new Neo-Walker causing problems would suffice. Maybe someone with the power to control spirits.
Current state of Kamigawa? Probably the same as when we were last there.
And since this always comes up: no, changing everything about the plane to the point where it's not recognizable as Kamigawa save for the name and some races, is less smart than just creating a new world.
pd: theros is pretty lame storywise, remove elspeth and ajani (and make other X people grab they role) and you have the worst story ever in modern magic, um actually i have a hard time thinking any edition 2000+ with worse story/plot.
Let me rephrase this: "Remove the characters the story focused on and the story was pretty bad."
There could be a different Kami war. Like some humans followed Konda's footstep and started trapping/enslaving Kamis. Like trapping/binding a fire Kami to a sword to make it spit out flames or be a fire sword. To the mundane of trapping/binding a lantern Kami into a glass bottle effectively creating a light bulb or a flashlight (w/o burning fossil fuels to boot ).
A new Neo-Walker causing problems would suffice. Maybe someone with the power to control spirits.
Eh, we already had Xenagos. Don't want too many stories revolving around a neo-walker as the prime disturbance to a plane. It's be better if they went the Innistrad route where PWs influence the story and plane but aren't outright meddling with it on a major level. Like Lilliana releasing Avacyn and Girselbrand.
I think a logical answer to this would be a reverse Kami War. The spirits are weakened, and the mortals are now finally taking over their world. Tamiyo is basically left to observe what happens next, and try to keep the world from falling out of balance completely.
Kamigawa happened ages ago. I mean Umezawa landed on Dominaria, had lots of offsprings and one of them killed Bolas.
Bolas killed Myojin of Night's Reach and Leshrac tried to enter the plane but was held off by the fusion of Michiko&Thatwhichwastaken.
Michiko&Thatwhichwastaken actually decided that they would change the way spirit magic works, so the plane could have undergone lots of change (and gotten rid of Arcane spells).
I think the most recent confirmed "What is it like now" look to Kamigawa was in Agents of Artifice, where we saw small parts of the Kamigawa wilderness and a lot of the swamp. And they were largley unchanged. That's not to say that the rest of the world was the same, however.
I think its more like Wizard is a company trying to make money first and for most and if you did something that wasn't as profitable as you like it to be then chances are you won't do it again.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
True enough. Ive got nothing against going to Kamigawa just wanted to point out that inaddition to the general dislike of the plane by the player base creative also has a reason to not go to it *at least not for a while.*
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
If Magic returned to Kamigawa and didn't taint it with Phyrexians or Eldrazi (which are cool, but Kamigawa is "pure" in a way and exists best in its own bubble), I would personally buy enough product to ensure yet another sequel.
Bingo. I'd like them to repeat the poll for modern audiences. For Lowryn too. The only complaint I've heard about Kamigawa was it having lower power cards alongside a far more power creeped block that evidently nearly killed Magic. At least in the words of those from my locals who were around for it. My only complaint about it was the abstract Kami art looking ugly instead of elegant as it could have (Spirits of Innistrad were beautiful in their own way for example). A revisit focusing on Moonfolk, Samurai, Ninjas, Orochi, etc. has potential as I see it - at least as a supplemental product. But I've resigned trying to voice this opinion to MaRo and WOTC because for whatever reason, it's just not happening. I can just hope we'd see more of Kamigawa before revisiting the worst plane of all, Ravnica, again. That would just be awful. At this rate I'm content to hope for a Return to Zendikar and an Arixmethes card at some point. As crazy as it is, they both seem more likely than RTK. Also, agreed about the Kamitaki Falls being one of the most gorgeous spots in the Multiverse (it's tied for best with some other locations though).
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I don't like this "we did it wrong, therefore we won't do it again" vibe that WOTC has.
It's too late though, even if they did fix Kamigawa, it wouldn't be Kamigawa unless it had the abstract spirit art, and the weird names.
The thing is that WotC does not like to take unnecessary risks. Kamgiawa has been poorly received the first time, due to multiple reasons. Why would they bring something back that left a bad taste in the players' mouth? And no, saying "But I liked it." doesn't cut it, because there is literally someone for everything that they like. It's just a risk for WotC that will likely cost them money. It's easy for you to say that they should bring back Kamigawa, but making a post on the internet takes literally no effort and is completely free, but if Wizards fails with a whole block, they'll lose a crapton of money.
Additionally it should be noted it's not only about the designers and creative people. The stakeholders of the company also have something to say. And they sure as hell will not bring back something that the majority of the players didn't like the first time. At least not without a reason.
I can see Kamigawa appearing here and there in supplemental products, but I'm not holding my breath for a return to Kamigawa block in the foreseeable future.
Akki_Akki thinks...
That would be very hard to do. Ignoring words and names, stuff like: scenery, armor, weapons, serpentine wingless flying dragons, architecture, native races... those be unique to Kamigawa.
Best bet is another supplemental product like Planechase 2015 or Commander 2015 or Archenemy 2015.
Akki_Akki think this because Planechase allows for plane hopping which gives them an excuse to print some new cards or old cards from Kamigawa in addition to other planes like "All You Can Eat Buffet" and if there is still more room they could include also more specific places on the Plane like how there is Sokenzan.
Commander because after the set Legends was when Kamigawa really did make tons of cool and unique Legends, some seeing more play than others and Legends are now regarded as cool "Build-Around-Me" cards that have their own exclusive format.
Archenemy can be used to as a framing device to capture the feel of Kamigawa with various new Scheme cards and non-scheme cards.
The fourth point to make on supplemental products is that it doesn't have to be the entire product is Kamigawa themed, it could be just isolated to 1:5 or 1:4 different products within a line like how there was five different decks for Commander 2014.
Only way we are heading back to Kamigawa is if Akki_Akki's homeplane gets invaded or the plane itself was falling apart or that Kamigawa was losing mana. There needs to be strife for us to return to a specific block like Return to Ravnica or Scars of Mirrodin. There must always be a new problem.
Akki_Akki personally would despise heading back to Ravnica a third time.
If Return to Kamigawa did happen, Akki_Akki thinks the question would be like what you pointed out Signofzeta.
Akki_Akki? Akki_Akki want a mixture of it staying close to its roots on what worked and to drift away from what didn't work. The various races like Akki (Goblins), Moonfolk, Orochi (Snakes), Nezumi (Rats), Kitsune (Foxes) Akki_Akki feels worked well to its favor and flavor.
If WOTC was a sports team general manager. They would always rebuild a failing team no matter what, or a team that would fire the coach and trade away all the players when the team is on a losing streak.
"Asian setting block failed to make playoffs or is on losing streak"
FIRE THE COACH AND REBUILD
result is Tarkir.
Prepare for 15 more years of disappointment Kamigawa fans. It seems bleak that they will return to the plane of Leafs.
There is a slight diference though. One sucks, is hated except by a niche group, and is not making money, and the other sucks, is hated except by a niche group, and is making tons of money.
C'mon guys, we have to stick with Kamigawa through thick and thin. Don't be like those Ravnica bandwagoners.
Off topic, but since I am already making a sports analogy, I noticed something when someone tries to defend a bad product.
In the geek culture, if someone tries so hard to defend a product or company, and that product sucked, they are called loser fanboys, and they are expected to bail to the more popular product.
In the sports culture, if someone tries so hard to defend a team, and that team sucked, they are passionate for their team, and those who bail are loser bandwagoners.
So are you Kamigawa fanboys, or passionate about Kamigawa? You decide.
Akki_Akki think strange artwork fine. Akki_Akki agree that the names especially at Common rarity made for clunky game.
Whats interests Akki_Akki is you can actually correlate Tarkir directly to an earlier Blogatog post that came out on November 8, 2013. A few months shy of a full year before KTK.
Tarkir has several of these themes in spades. Sultai has some Eastern Indian from what Akki_Akki can tell, Mardu appears to be Chinese mixed with Mongolian, Abzan is clearly Middle Eastern, Jeskai seem to be based on Tibetan culture, Temur seem to be Mongolian mixed with Huns.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I have no problems with them too, but I read somewhere, forgot where, that people had trouble associating the name of the card with the ability because the names were weird. I do have to say when you try to memorize all the names, it tends to get tough.
Akki_Akki thinks...
As legends/rares/mythics such names are fine. Its when you get bombarded at common and to an extent uncommon when it might be considered a tiny problem.
Theros did it proper by keeping many of the harder pronounce words away from Common Rarity as much as possible.
EDIT:
Akki_Akki will admit... there was a small problem with memory regarding how things and peoples were named. Untaidake, Cloud Keeper. Is it a legendary creature? A artifact? A enchantment? A land? Without prior knowledge to what Untaidake was (land, tallest mountain point in all Sokenzan), Akki_Akki would swear all across Sokenzan that Untaidake, Cloud Keeper was a creature.
A new Neo-Walker causing problems would suffice. Maybe someone with the power to control spirits.
And since this always comes up: no, changing everything about the plane to the point where it's not recognizable as Kamigawa save for the name and some races, is less smart than just creating a new world.
Let me rephrase this: "Remove the characters the story focused on and the story was pretty bad."
I mean, what?
Your mods are terrified of me.
Eh, we already had Xenagos. Don't want too many stories revolving around a neo-walker as the prime disturbance to a plane. It's be better if they went the Innistrad route where PWs influence the story and plane but aren't outright meddling with it on a major level. Like Lilliana releasing Avacyn and Girselbrand.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
- Main Cube
- No Brains, All Feelings Cube
Bolas killed Myojin of Night's Reach and Leshrac tried to enter the plane but was held off by the fusion of Michiko&Thatwhichwastaken.
Michiko&Thatwhichwastaken actually decided that they would change the way spirit magic works, so the plane could have undergone lots of change (and gotten rid of Arcane spells).
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