So I've been playing Magic for a few years now (since Scars of Mirridion) and I just started learning the MTG lore. I couldn't figure it out for myself, so what/whom do you think is the most powerful entity (single entity) is that is alive today? By the way, I mean their power today, not the peak of their power (looking at you Nicol Bolas)
Here are some that I came up with:
Emrakul
Ulamog
Kozilek
Nicol Bolas
Ugin (Spirit)
Jace
Sorin
Karn? (Not sure if Karn is still alive)
Possibly one of the Theros gods
Just tell me who you think is the most powerful thing in magic currently, and if I missed any.
Jace, Sorin, and the Theros gods are immediately off the list. The Theros gods might have a lot of power on that plane, but they're limited, and Elspeth has shown they can be killed by a moderately strong planeswalker. It's been proven that Jace couldn't hold a candle to Bolas, lasting only a second against him. Sorin is much more powerful, but the two dragons will dwarf him just due to their natural strength and magical affinity. Ugin and Bolas are comparable in power, and even pre-mending Ugin couldn't stop the Eldrazi alone. That leaves the Eldrazi Titans, and since Emrakul seems to be the main one, my vote is Emrakul. Karn is still alive, but would probably be about as strong as Sorin.
Yeah Jace definitely has no business on that list. If you want to talk about any of the new walkers in terms of power, Ajani battled Bolas to a draw at the Maelstrom on Alara.
It's probably the Eldrazi are the most powerful but that's to be expected of things that eat entire planes. From their it's probably Bolas, then Ugin, then Karn and then there's an enormous gap between them and the likes of Sorin and a large gap between him and the rest.
If we're talking about Plane bound entities I wouldn't even go straight to the Theros Gods. The most powerful planebound threats are probably the Phyrexian Praetors. And Phyrexia can get off the plane via the oil so their a much larger threat. What would have happened if Elspeth had accidentally taken some of the glistening oil to Theros? Phyrexian Gods?
Jace, Sorin, and the Theros gods are immediately off the list. The Theros gods might have a lot of power on that plane, but they're limited, and Elspeth has shown they can be killed by a moderately strong planeswalker. It's been proven that Jace couldn't hold a candle to Bolas, lasting only a second against him. Sorin is much more powerful, but the two dragons will dwarf him just due to their natural strength and magical affinity. Ugin and Bolas are comparable in power, and even pre-mending Ugin couldn't stop the Eldrazi alone. That leaves the Eldrazi Titans, and since Emrakul seems to be the main one, my vote is Emrakul. Karn is still alive, but would probably be about as strong as Sorin.
Its debatable if Theroes gods can be killed, Xenagos still had a mortal core, still was injured by Nyleas bow and needed to drain a ton of nix born to keep his godly statues when Elsepth killed him. Could they be killed? Sure, but we don't know since the only god to have shown to be killed* was still somewhat mortal.
*Not talking about being absorbed like Cacophony or turning into a new version of themselves.
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Yeah Jace definitely has no business on that list. If you want to talk about any of the new walkers in terms of power, Ajani battled Bolas to a draw at the Maelstrom on Alara.
It's probably the Eldrazi are the most powerful but that's to be expected of things that eat entire planes. From their it's probably Bolas, then Ugin, then Karn and then there's an enormous gap between them and the likes of Sorin and a large gap between him and the rest.
If we're talking about Plane bound entities I wouldn't even go straight to the Theros Gods. The most powerful planebound threats are probably the Phyrexian Praetors. And Phyrexia can get off the plane via the oil so their a much larger threat. What would have happened if Elspeth had accidentally taken some of the glistening oil to Theros? Phyrexian Gods?
I don't think it works - Theros Gods exist because of devotion. Deprive them enough, they weaken. Cut it off completely, they cease to exist. I think that is what Ajani is attempting to do now to avenge Elspeth.
The oil can only affect the physical, so 14 remaining won't be affected physically. But since Phyrexians have no thought other than "All will be One" - their devotion supply is cut off, and they cease to exist. The only issue is whether "All will be One" is considered devotion. If it is, then possibly a singular Phyrexian Entity will be formed due to Nyx.
But considering Kruphix knows of the Phyrexians due to Elspeth landing on Theros, it is possible to counteract to it beforehand, unlike the Eldrazi. And considering their pragmatism at sacrificing things to get things done their way, they could even possibly repel Phyrexia successfully. The Eldrazi, not so much.
I'd say the Eldrazi titans are probably at the top, as it took 3 oldwalkers just to lock them up. No idea how any combination of new walkers are going to be able to even slow them down.
Next is Bolas, followed by Ugin, then Karn. Bolas sits atop this group because A, while Ugin's been asleep for 1200 years, Bolas has been adding to his arsenal AND shredding the likes of Teferi and Leshrac at full oldwalker power, and B, Karn was never shown to have as much raw power as either dragon and just got done being crazy. Karn is probably a decent distance behind the two dragons, but he's closer to their level than any of the other new walkers, save maybe Sorin.
Sorin comes next, as one of the last remaining oldwalkers, and the only other one shown to work plane-wide magic. There's a huge gap between him and everyone else on the list after him, and I don't think the gap between him and Karn is all that big, but he's still well behind the dragons.
The rest of the new walkers probably fall in here; I'm leaning toward Liliana + Chain Veil being the strongest, but a toss-up with Jace isn't out of the question. After those two, probably Ajani, and I tend to think in single combat Ashiok is pretty freaking dangerous, but I can't really draw any solid conclusions there. The others are pretty much interchangeable, and most of them probably couldn't even handle the strongest fixed-plane entities (the Praetors, the primary Theros Gods, Progenitus, O-Kagachi, Avacyn, and whatever Marit Lage is) by themselves.
I believe Emmy and Kozi should be switched. In terms of sheer power in cards, Emmy is the grandest, but in terms of story, Kozi is supposed to reign supreme. At least, so I've been told. I would then rank Karn and Ugin the same, both after Bolas. Then comes Sorin due to his life draining abilities and age. Sarkhan, in my theory, is above that of Jace and possibly leveled with Garruk. Speaking of Garruk, I would say a powered up Lili is on par with Sorin. Tezz is just slightly below Jace, and though it pains me to say Tezz is weak, I feel it's the truth. The praetors are probably lingering around just above Jace, maybe more on par with Elspeth who is right with Sarkhan. Every other demi-god/planetary being can go kick rocks as I don't care about them. I'm basing my opinions on cards and story.
Its debatable if Theroes gods can be killed, Xenagos still had a mortal core, still was injured by Nyleas bow and needed to drain a ton of nix born to keep his godly statues when Elsepth killed him. Could they be killed? Sure, but we don't know since the only god to have shown to be killed* was still somewhat mortal.
*Not talking about being absorbed like Cacophony or turning into a new version of themselves.
Elspeth's spear-that-was-a-sword (Godsend) was forged by Purphoros as the Sword of Chaos and was able to hurt Nyxborn creatures. This ability was Heliod's greatest fear.
Maybe Elspeth couldn't kill a 'real' God with it... but Purphoros could, or at least believed he could.
I believe Emmy and Kozi should be switched. In terms of sheer power in cards, Emmy is the grandest, but in terms of story, Kozi is supposed to reign supreme. At least, so I've been told.
No, Emrakul is the greater of the three. From UR - The Lithomancer:
The one Sorin and Nahiri had seen before, the enormous thing that Ugin called Ulamog, was in fact the smallest of the three. The titan called Kozilek picked its way through the hedron fields, great black blades of senseless obsidian floating around what should have been its head. And above them, in every sense, was Emrakul, a hideous tower of latticed flesh and grasping tentacles floating lazily over the shattered earth.
Emrakul is greater and more powerful than the other two, with Kozi as the middle one and Ulamog the smaller, just like in the cards.
Emrakul in the blind eternities is probably the most powerful being given that old-walkers (albeit ones written today) were certain they were no match for the Eldrazi. I'm not sure this counts, though, since interactions with Emrakul will always be through shadows and avatars on a plane.
We can say with some confidence that the Theros gods have power that is at best slightly greater than most neo-walkers. Elspeth totally resists Heliod's magic and I think there was a UR where Ashiok manipulates Phenax or Ephara.
I'd rank the upper echelons of power like this.
Eldrazi
Bolas/Karn/Ugin
Liliana, with the Veil
Sorin
I think the most powerful entity alive right now is Emrakul.
I think the most dangerous entity alive right now is Bolas, because he has an agenda more complicated than the Eldrazi's apparent goal of "go to a place and eat" and he is willing to do awful things to people out of spite.
We can say with some confidence that the Theros gods have power that is at best slightly greater than most neo-walkers. Elspeth totally resists Heliod's magic and I think there was a UR where Ashiok manipulates Phenax or Ephara.
I doubt this is true.
First off, the gods are gods in a very literal sense. It stands to reason that they have a very great control over their specific domain (on Theros). If they are at the power level of the neowalkers, they simply wouldn't be gods.
As for the Ashiok thing. He didn't manipulate the gods per se. He manipulated their worshippers which in turn created a new entity. This entity however was nigh infinitely small compared to Ephara, as seen when she simply just absorbs that entity without much trouble.
There are powerful planeswalkers, no doubt, and some may even challenge gods in terms of power, but the gods of Theros are still gods and 99% of all planeswalkers couldn't even scratch them. Just note how Elspeth was only able to kill Xenagos due to help from multiple other gods (Nylea, Purphoros, Heliod and even Kruphix). There is no way your average neowalker could even make a dent to a god, unless they don't take them on directly. (Like what Ajani is doing or what Ashiok would be capapable of, if he continues tainting the gods with nightmare concepts.)
We can say with some confidence that the Theros gods have power that is at best slightly greater than most neo-walkers. Elspeth totally resists Heliod's magic and I think there was a UR where Ashiok manipulates Phenax or Ephara.
I doubt this is true.
First off, the gods are gods in a very literal sense. It stands to reason that they have a very great control over their specific domain (on Theros). If they are at the power level of the neowalkers, they simply wouldn't be gods.
And yet Elspeth, who is not particularly powerful, easily stops Heliod from incinerating her early in the Theros book. Thassa obviously sees Kiora as a legitimate threat and rival, not someone who can be easily gotten rid of. If the Theroes gods are more powerful than neowalkers it isn't by very much. They could probably overpower Domri or Tibalt but experienced walkers are repeatedly shown dealing with the Theros gods as equals.
'Most Powerful' isn't really a good way to look at it. Each 'walker has strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited. Many have a specific place of power where they would be stronger than they otherwise would be. Many extremely powerful beings can't cross the Blind Eternities. Tetsuo Umezawa 'killed' Nicol Bolas, who was still an oldwalker at that time. There are also a lot of different kinds of power: a planeswalker may hold more personal power than another, but someone with an Army could be stronger.
So, my list would look more like this:
Theros Gods: While on Theros only
Avacyn: post-Helvault breaking (Her power is related to the amount of evil on the plane)
Jace: While on Ravnica (due to his status as the Living Guildpact, although that is just speculation, it's unclear how much power that gives him both personally and over the guilds, but a significant amount of power is invested in him. Whether or not he can use it other than to tell the Guilds what they can't do is up in the air.)
Myojin of Night's Reach: Non-walker but can travel the Blind Eternities, has a powerful mask and is strong enough to survive a fight with Bolas (but not win)
Eldrazi Titans
Father/Mother of Machines (Currently unknown, but hinted at being Elesh Norn, here mostly due to their power over Phyrexia and the corruption)
Nicol Bolas
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Karn
And yet Elspeth, who is not particularly powerful, easily stops Heliod from incinerating her early in the Theros book. Thassa obviously sees Kiora as a legitimate threat and rival, not someone who can be easily gotten rid of. If the Theroes gods are more powerful than neowalkers it isn't by very much. They could probably overpower Domri or Tibalt but experienced walkers are repeatedly shown dealing with the Theros gods as equals.
Elspeth knew very specific protective magic. The fact that she survived should not tell you that the Theros Gods aren't all that strong, just that the one particular match-up cancelled each other out. Without the Godsend, she wouldn't stand a chance against the Theros Gods, and obviously surviving one attack didn't keep her alive.
We can say with some confidence that the Theros gods have power that is at best slightly greater than most neo-walkers. Elspeth totally resists Heliod's magic and I think there was a UR where Ashiok manipulates Phenax or Ephara.
I doubt this is true.
First off, the gods are gods in a very literal sense. It stands to reason that they have a very great control over their specific domain (on Theros). If they are at the power level of the neowalkers, they simply wouldn't be gods.
And yet Elspeth, who is not particularly powerful, easily stops Heliod from incinerating her early in the Theros book. Thassa obviously sees Kiora as a legitimate threat and rival, not someone who can be easily gotten rid of. If the Theroes gods are more powerful than neowalkers it isn't by very much. They could probably overpower Domri or Tibalt but experienced walkers are repeatedly shown dealing with the Theros gods as equals.
And yet Elspeth, who is not particularly powerful, easily stops Heliod from incinerating her early in the Theros book. Thassa obviously sees Kiora as a legitimate threat and rival, not someone who can be easily gotten rid of. If the Theroes gods are more powerful than neowalkers it isn't by very much. They could probably overpower Domri or Tibalt but experienced walkers are repeatedly shown dealing with the Theros gods as equals.
Elspeth knew very specific protective magic. The fact that she survived should not tell you that the Theros Gods aren't all that strong, just that the one particular match-up cancelled each other out. Without the Godsend, she wouldn't stand a chance against the Theros Gods, and obviously surviving one attack didn't keep her alive.
That gods of Theros exist in a unique way that makes it difficult for them to die by normal means doesn't make them tremendously powerful, in my opinion. Their abilities are impressive but nothing we see them do suggests any sort of immense power. All that Elspeth needs to kill Xenagos is a weapon and access to him, she's capable of surviving the fight with her own abilities. No one on Theros see a large difference in power between gods and walkers either. Kiora easily poses as Thassa and doesn't get crushed for it, in fact Kiora seems confident she is the match of the sea god.
Father/Mother of Machines (Currently unknown, but hinted at being Elesh Norn, here mostly due to their power over Phyrexia and the corruption)
Karn is the Father of Machines.
He was never more than a figurehead, and now that he's gone, he sure as hell isn't.
Elesh Norn conquered a majority of New Phyrexia. She's gonna be sitting in the throne pretty quickly.
As I understand it Umezawa contrived events so that Bolas was "merely" a powerful dragon during their fight.
If he was capable of contriving events to depower Bolas, wouldn't that make him powerful? That's exactly the point. Circumstance and cleverness are a big part of who wins what. It'd be easier if the challenge was 'Who can destroy a plane the fastest' or 'who can kill the most average people', which would be an entirely different argument.
Karn was the Father of Machines. The current leader of New Phyrexia hasn't been decided yet as far as we know. None of the Praetors really wanted him in charge anyway, they were all competing to use him as a proxy.
That gods of Theros exist in a unique way that makes it difficult for them to die by normal means doesn't make them tremendously powerful, in my opinion. Their abilities are impressive but nothing we see them do suggests any sort of immense power. All that Elspeth needs to kill Xenagos is a weapon and access to him, she's capable of surviving the fight with her own abilities. No one on Theros see a large difference in power between gods and walkers either. Kiora easily poses as Thassa and doesn't get crushed for it, in fact Kiora seems confident she is the match of the sea god.
Their power is tied to what people believe their power is, and the reality is that while they're limited to their domains, they have a pretty significant amount of power in that domain. Heliod showed he was powerful enough to boil the oceans. Most of the Gods simply have more subtle powers over nature and the working of the world (similar to the Greek Gods).
Kiora is pretty arrogant, by all accounts. Her confidence that she is a match shouldn't really mean much, the reality is we don't actually see Thassa trying to fight her.
Father/Mother of Machines (Currently unknown, but hinted at being Elesh Norn, here mostly due to their power over Phyrexia and the corruption)
Karn is the Father of Machines.
He was never more than a figurehead, and now that he's gone, he sure as hell isn't.
Elesh Norn conquered a majority of New Phyrexia. She's gonna be sitting in the throne pretty quickly.
I didn't realize it was a title. I assumed that he was called that on account of literally being the father Mirrodin.
The Theran gods On Theros? Still Heck of a lot. Elspeth appeared to be lacking zeal towards them and still got killed. I admit that your phrasing tho is interesting as Xenagos made the same argument with Nylea and was only wounded, not slain. However, even by marking him, Nylea's actions proved disastrous for Xenagod with the assist from Elspeth. I would not be surprised if we touch more on your theory next visit to Theros. I dunno about the Theran pantheon, they are hard to configure
My personal answer to the question?
Eldrazi Titans
Bolas
Ugin
Karn,Sorin
Guildpact Jace, Chain Veil Lili, Cursed Garruk
Elspeth,Nissa, Chandra, Tezz,Sarkhan, Ajani, Gideon
Xenagos, Koth, Dack, Tamiyo, Ral, Vraska
Tibalt, Domri, Ashiok
This is kinda a dumb question as its comparing apples to oranges, irrelevant to context. Plus there have been walkers currently shown in new story lines tht ended up much more powerful than I thought. They each have different skills, strengths, weaknesses. Just watch as seemingly weak Tibalt becomes a main antagonist and summons an Infernal army to threaten a plane. Or Ignorant (but awesomely stubborn) Domri call up the wild to restore a primordial world from an encroaching Ice age. These things haven't happened obviously but I wouldn't be surprised if Creative gives each character the limelight to be vastly powerful for good, Evil, or something more ambiguous. In such a Grand sandbox for storytelling, who knows what RnD have up their sleeve.
We can say with some confidence that the Theros gods have power that is at best slightly greater than most neo-walkers. Elspeth totally resists Heliod's magic and I think there was a UR where Ashiok manipulates Phenax or Ephara.
I doubt this is true.
First off, the gods are gods in a very literal sense. It stands to reason that they have a very great control over their specific domain (on Theros). If they are at the power level of the neowalkers, they simply wouldn't be gods.
And yet Elspeth, who is not particularly powerful, easily stops Heliod from incinerating her early in the Theros book. Thassa obviously sees Kiora as a legitimate threat and rival, not someone who can be easily gotten rid of. If the Theroes gods are more powerful than neowalkers it isn't by very much. They could probably overpower Domri or Tibalt but experienced walkers are repeatedly shown dealing with the Theros gods as equals.
No its because the Theros gods only know Theros magic, where as planeswalkers can lean spells from all the different planes. Only reason Elspeth was able to protect herself from Heliod was because she used a protection spell that Heliod had never seen before and didn't know now to break.
As for Kiora/Thasssa fight it isn't Thassa vs Kiora, its Thassa vs Kiora and an army of sea monsters including a karen the size of a city and we don't even know yet how that fight ended
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We can say with some confidence that the Theros gods have power that is at best slightly greater than most neo-walkers. Elspeth totally resists Heliod's magic and I think there was a UR where Ashiok manipulates Phenax or Ephara.
I doubt this is true.
First off, the gods are gods in a very literal sense. It stands to reason that they have a very great control over their specific domain (on Theros). If they are at the power level of the neowalkers, they simply wouldn't be gods.
And yet Elspeth, who is not particularly powerful, easily stops Heliod from incinerating her early in the Theros book. Thassa obviously sees Kiora as a legitimate threat and rival, not someone who can be easily gotten rid of. If the Theroes gods are more powerful than neowalkers it isn't by very much. They could probably overpower Domri or Tibalt but experienced walkers are repeatedly shown dealing with the Theros gods as equals.
Surviving the attempt of getting killed is not the same as being more powerful. If I try to swat a fly and the fly gets away before the newspaper hits, is the fly more powerful than me?
As for Kiora, I don't actually know how much Thassa cares at the moment. With all the other stuff going on, including Xenagos' attempt at usurping the gods' position and Ajani continuing his work in a way, I'm not sure if Thassa really cares that much about Kiora at the moment. It's not like Kiora's tentacled pets can harm Thassa in Nyx anyway.
That gods of Theros exist in a unique way that makes it difficult for them to die by normal means doesn't make them tremendously powerful, in my opinion. Their abilities are impressive but nothing we see them do suggests any sort of immense power. All that Elspeth needs to kill Xenagos is a weapon and access to him, she's capable of surviving the fight with her own abilities. No one on Theros see a large difference in power between gods and walkers either. Kiora easily poses as Thassa and doesn't get crushed for it, in fact Kiora seems confident she is the match of the sea god.
As explained before, Xenagos is not a good barometer since he's a false god, still mortal within and sustained by the nyxborn, not to mention wounded by Nylea. Elspeth surviving Heliod's rays is also not a good display of her power over his, especially since she needed to be veiled later on to be concealed from the gods, and was ultimately offed by him (via Godsend, but still). It also relied on Heliod being caught completely off guard; simply seeing someone not instantly terrorised by his tactics stunned him.
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Here are some that I came up with:
It's probably the Eldrazi are the most powerful but that's to be expected of things that eat entire planes. From their it's probably Bolas, then Ugin, then Karn and then there's an enormous gap between them and the likes of Sorin and a large gap between him and the rest.
If we're talking about Plane bound entities I wouldn't even go straight to the Theros Gods. The most powerful planebound threats are probably the Phyrexian Praetors. And Phyrexia can get off the plane via the oil so their a much larger threat. What would have happened if Elspeth had accidentally taken some of the glistening oil to Theros? Phyrexian Gods?
Its debatable if Theroes gods can be killed, Xenagos still had a mortal core, still was injured by Nyleas bow and needed to drain a ton of nix born to keep his godly statues when Elsepth killed him. Could they be killed? Sure, but we don't know since the only god to have shown to be killed* was still somewhat mortal.
*Not talking about being absorbed like Cacophony or turning into a new version of themselves.
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I don't think it works - Theros Gods exist because of devotion. Deprive them enough, they weaken. Cut it off completely, they cease to exist. I think that is what Ajani is attempting to do now to avenge Elspeth.
The oil can only affect the physical, so 14 remaining won't be affected physically. But since Phyrexians have no thought other than "All will be One" - their devotion supply is cut off, and they cease to exist. The only issue is whether "All will be One" is considered devotion. If it is, then possibly a singular Phyrexian Entity will be formed due to Nyx.
But considering Kruphix knows of the Phyrexians due to Elspeth landing on Theros, it is possible to counteract to it beforehand, unlike the Eldrazi. And considering their pragmatism at sacrificing things to get things done their way, they could even possibly repel Phyrexia successfully. The Eldrazi, not so much.
Next is Bolas, followed by Ugin, then Karn. Bolas sits atop this group because A, while Ugin's been asleep for 1200 years, Bolas has been adding to his arsenal AND shredding the likes of Teferi and Leshrac at full oldwalker power, and B, Karn was never shown to have as much raw power as either dragon and just got done being crazy. Karn is probably a decent distance behind the two dragons, but he's closer to their level than any of the other new walkers, save maybe Sorin.
Sorin comes next, as one of the last remaining oldwalkers, and the only other one shown to work plane-wide magic. There's a huge gap between him and everyone else on the list after him, and I don't think the gap between him and Karn is all that big, but he's still well behind the dragons.
The rest of the new walkers probably fall in here; I'm leaning toward Liliana + Chain Veil being the strongest, but a toss-up with Jace isn't out of the question. After those two, probably Ajani, and I tend to think in single combat Ashiok is pretty freaking dangerous, but I can't really draw any solid conclusions there. The others are pretty much interchangeable, and most of them probably couldn't even handle the strongest fixed-plane entities (the Praetors, the primary Theros Gods, Progenitus, O-Kagachi, Avacyn, and whatever Marit Lage is) by themselves.
UBDragonlord Silumgar WGKarametra, God of Harvests
BRUNekusar, the Mindrazer BGMazirek, Kraul Death Priest
URMelek, Izzet Paragon UGPrime Speaker Zegana
WUHanna, Ship's Navigator BWUSydri, Galvanic Genius
WUBRGSliver Queen RBBladewing the Risen
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council RGXenagos, God of Revels
GFreyalise, Llanowar's Fury RWAurelia, the Warleader
RIb Halfheart, Goblin Tactician BDrana, Liberator of Malakir
UAzami, Lady of Scrolls WNahiri, the Lithomancer
WBGDoran, the Siege Tower CEmrakul, the Promised End
Elspeth's spear-that-was-a-sword (Godsend) was forged by Purphoros as the Sword of Chaos and was able to hurt Nyxborn creatures. This ability was Heliod's greatest fear.
Maybe Elspeth couldn't kill a 'real' God with it... but Purphoros could, or at least believed he could.
No, Emrakul is the greater of the three. From UR - The Lithomancer:
The one Sorin and Nahiri had seen before, the enormous thing that Ugin called Ulamog, was in fact the smallest of the three. The titan called Kozilek picked its way through the hedron fields, great black blades of senseless obsidian floating around what should have been its head. And above them, in every sense, was Emrakul, a hideous tower of latticed flesh and grasping tentacles floating lazily over the shattered earth.
Emrakul is greater and more powerful than the other two, with Kozi as the middle one and Ulamog the smaller, just like in the cards.
We can say with some confidence that the Theros gods have power that is at best slightly greater than most neo-walkers. Elspeth totally resists Heliod's magic and I think there was a UR where Ashiok manipulates Phenax or Ephara.
I'd rank the upper echelons of power like this.
Eldrazi
Bolas/Karn/Ugin
Liliana, with the Veil
Sorin
I think the most dangerous entity alive right now is Bolas, because he has an agenda more complicated than the Eldrazi's apparent goal of "go to a place and eat" and he is willing to do awful things to people out of spite.
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I doubt this is true.
First off, the gods are gods in a very literal sense. It stands to reason that they have a very great control over their specific domain (on Theros). If they are at the power level of the neowalkers, they simply wouldn't be gods.
As for the Ashiok thing. He didn't manipulate the gods per se. He manipulated their worshippers which in turn created a new entity. This entity however was nigh infinitely small compared to Ephara, as seen when she simply just absorbs that entity without much trouble.
There are powerful planeswalkers, no doubt, and some may even challenge gods in terms of power, but the gods of Theros are still gods and 99% of all planeswalkers couldn't even scratch them. Just note how Elspeth was only able to kill Xenagos due to help from multiple other gods (Nylea, Purphoros, Heliod and even Kruphix). There is no way your average neowalker could even make a dent to a god, unless they don't take them on directly. (Like what Ajani is doing or what Ashiok would be capapable of, if he continues tainting the gods with nightmare concepts.)
And yet Elspeth, who is not particularly powerful, easily stops Heliod from incinerating her early in the Theros book. Thassa obviously sees Kiora as a legitimate threat and rival, not someone who can be easily gotten rid of. If the Theroes gods are more powerful than neowalkers it isn't by very much. They could probably overpower Domri or Tibalt but experienced walkers are repeatedly shown dealing with the Theros gods as equals.
So, my list would look more like this:
Theros Gods: While on Theros only
Avacyn: post-Helvault breaking (Her power is related to the amount of evil on the plane)
Jace: While on Ravnica (due to his status as the Living Guildpact, although that is just speculation, it's unclear how much power that gives him both personally and over the guilds, but a significant amount of power is invested in him. Whether or not he can use it other than to tell the Guilds what they can't do is up in the air.)
Myojin of Night's Reach: Non-walker but can travel the Blind Eternities, has a powerful mask and is strong enough to survive a fight with Bolas (but not win)
Eldrazi Titans
Father/Mother of Machines (Currently unknown, but hinted at being Elesh Norn, here mostly due to their power over Phyrexia and the corruption)
Nicol Bolas
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Karn
Elspeth knew very specific protective magic. The fact that she survived should not tell you that the Theros Gods aren't all that strong, just that the one particular match-up cancelled each other out. Without the Godsend, she wouldn't stand a chance against the Theros Gods, and obviously surviving one attack didn't keep her alive.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
This is a good point but it always gets in the way of this sort of fun.
As I understand it Umezawa contrived events so that Bolas was "merely" a powerful dragon during their fight.
Karn is the Father of Machines.
That gods of Theros exist in a unique way that makes it difficult for them to die by normal means doesn't make them tremendously powerful, in my opinion. Their abilities are impressive but nothing we see them do suggests any sort of immense power. All that Elspeth needs to kill Xenagos is a weapon and access to him, she's capable of surviving the fight with her own abilities. No one on Theros see a large difference in power between gods and walkers either. Kiora easily poses as Thassa and doesn't get crushed for it, in fact Kiora seems confident she is the match of the sea god.
Elesh Norn conquered a majority of New Phyrexia. She's gonna be sitting in the throne pretty quickly.
The problem is that these arguments always devolve if you don't lay out specifics here. Nothing is ever as simple as DBZ's Power Levels.
If he was capable of contriving events to depower Bolas, wouldn't that make him powerful? That's exactly the point. Circumstance and cleverness are a big part of who wins what. It'd be easier if the challenge was 'Who can destroy a plane the fastest' or 'who can kill the most average people', which would be an entirely different argument.
Karn was the Father of Machines. The current leader of New Phyrexia hasn't been decided yet as far as we know. None of the Praetors really wanted him in charge anyway, they were all competing to use him as a proxy.
Their power is tied to what people believe their power is, and the reality is that while they're limited to their domains, they have a pretty significant amount of power in that domain. Heliod showed he was powerful enough to boil the oceans. Most of the Gods simply have more subtle powers over nature and the working of the world (similar to the Greek Gods).
Kiora is pretty arrogant, by all accounts. Her confidence that she is a match shouldn't really mean much, the reality is we don't actually see Thassa trying to fight her.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I didn't realize it was a title. I assumed that he was called that on account of literally being the father Mirrodin.
My personal answer to the question?
Eldrazi Titans
Bolas
Ugin
Karn,Sorin
Guildpact Jace, Chain Veil Lili, Cursed Garruk
Elspeth,Nissa, Chandra, Tezz,Sarkhan, Ajani, Gideon
Xenagos, Koth, Dack, Tamiyo, Ral, Vraska
Tibalt, Domri, Ashiok
This is kinda a dumb question as its comparing apples to oranges, irrelevant to context. Plus there have been walkers currently shown in new story lines tht ended up much more powerful than I thought. They each have different skills, strengths, weaknesses. Just watch as seemingly weak Tibalt becomes a main antagonist and summons an Infernal army to threaten a plane. Or Ignorant (but awesomely stubborn) Domri call up the wild to restore a primordial world from an encroaching Ice age. These things haven't happened obviously but I wouldn't be surprised if Creative gives each character the limelight to be vastly powerful for good, Evil, or something more ambiguous. In such a Grand sandbox for storytelling, who knows what RnD have up their sleeve.
The Vorthos community will await the consequences of the Eldrazi Titans' deaths/sealing. We will keep the watch.
“The wind whispers, ‘come home,’ but I cannot.”
— Teferi
Yawgmoth was the previous Father of the Machines (See here)
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
No its because the Theros gods only know Theros magic, where as planeswalkers can lean spells from all the different planes. Only reason Elspeth was able to protect herself from Heliod was because she used a protection spell that Heliod had never seen before and didn't know now to break.
As for Kiora/Thasssa fight it isn't Thassa vs Kiora, its Thassa vs Kiora and an army of sea monsters including a karen the size of a city and we don't even know yet how that fight ended
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Surviving the attempt of getting killed is not the same as being more powerful. If I try to swat a fly and the fly gets away before the newspaper hits, is the fly more powerful than me?
As for Kiora, I don't actually know how much Thassa cares at the moment. With all the other stuff going on, including Xenagos' attempt at usurping the gods' position and Ajani continuing his work in a way, I'm not sure if Thassa really cares that much about Kiora at the moment. It's not like Kiora's tentacled pets can harm Thassa in Nyx anyway.
As explained before, Xenagos is not a good barometer since he's a false god, still mortal within and sustained by the nyxborn, not to mention wounded by Nylea. Elspeth surviving Heliod's rays is also not a good display of her power over his, especially since she needed to be veiled later on to be concealed from the gods, and was ultimately offed by him (via Godsend, but still). It also relied on Heliod being caught completely off guard; simply seeing someone not instantly terrorised by his tactics stunned him.