Nicol Bolas is currently one of the most major villains in the story of this game, and it is easy to see why: he is both a planeswalker and an elder dragon, so he is very powerful, but he is also fiendishly clever and manipulative, making him a perfect candidate to play the role of "big bad" in this game.
However, with the fact that Ugin shall almost certainly appear in the next set, Fate Reforged, I wonder if Ugin is also an elder dragon. While Bolas has long been presumed to be the only remaining elder dragon, there is nothing to prevent WotC from saying that Ugin is one, also. Bolas personally fought Ugin in direct combat, rather than having a minion of his do so, meaning that he regards Ugin as an equal and possibly even a threat, which, combined with the fact that Ugin is vaguely similar in appearance to Bolas and is also a very powerful dragon planeswalker, makes him an ideal candidate to be the "big good" of this game, which is something that the game currently lacks.
What does everyone else say about this? Is Ugin an elder dragon? And, if he survives his battle with Bolas due to Sarkhan intervening, will he become the "big good" of this game?
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It was also said the only survivors of the Elder Dragon Wars were the five three-colored ones from Legends. Bolas is the only survivor of this group, centuries later. But yes, it is possible for Ugin to be revealed as another Elder, who survived by hiding from his brethren in Tarkir earlier into or before the War, or whatever story they come with.
At the time, Bolas did not have planeswalkers minions like he does now, as far as we know, so that is a good reason to fight another dragon planeswalker, even if not Elder, by himself.
It is possible, there is still debate on whether another dragon called Piru was an Elder Dragon or a Lesser Elder Dragon. Won't be surprising to find out Ugin is an Elder Dragon seeing as Ugin and Nicol Bolas are both similar in body structure and the fact that when Bolas "died" the first time he remained in a ghostly state that only got reborn during the time rifts on Dominaria similar to what is happening with Ugin now.
I would say that no, it is unlikely.
For one, we've been told that Ugin's homeworld is Tarkir itself, and unless that is true of all the Elder Dragons, then that fact alone sort of precludes the possibility.
Even further, is that we know Ugin isn't just a dragon to start with. He's a Spirit Dragon. We don't actually know what that entails, but it would be rather gilding the lily to have him be an Elder on top of that.
Also, you hurt Karn's feelings for not considering him a Big Good.
I would say that no, it is unlikely.
For one, we've been told that Ugin's homeworld is Tarkir itself, and unless that is true of all the Elder Dragons, then that fact alone sort of precludes the possibility.
Even further, is that we know Ugin isn't just a dragon to start with. He's a Spirit Dragon. We don't actually know what that entails, but it would be rather gilding the lily to have him be an Elder on top of that.
Also, you hurt Karn's feelings for not considering him a Big Good.
Personally, I wouldn't count Ugin as a Big Good, considering what we know about him. He seems more neutral than anything. You don't have to be particularly 'good' to decide to fight the Eldrazi.
For one, we've been told that Ugin's homeworld is Tarkir itself, and unless that is true of all the Elder Dragons, then that fact alone sort of precludes the possibility.
Just out of curiosity, why would all Dragon Elders need to come from the same plane?
For one, we've been told that Ugin's homeworld is Tarkir itself, and unless that is true of all the Elder Dragons, then that fact alone sort of precludes the possibility.
Just out of curiosity, why would all Dragon Elders need to come from the same plane?
Strictly speaking, given the extraplanar nature of their empire, they wouldn't have to be.
However, the thing about it the issue is that I don't feel they'd go through the effort to establish the clarity of the situation. It's an extra step I just don't think they'd take. Most people's assumption would be that the Elders all came from the same world, so we'd have people declaring Tarkir the Elder homeworld because of Ugin.
Strictly speaking, given the extraplanar nature of their empire, they wouldn't have to be.
However, the thing about it the issue is that I don't feel they'd go through the effort to establish the clarity of the situation. It's an extra step I just don't think they'd take. Most people's assumption would be that the Elders all came from the same world, so we'd have people declaring Tarkir the Elder homeworld because of Ugin.
It's worth noting that the Elder Dragons were on Dominaria, and of them, only Nicol Bolas has been indicated to be a Planeswalker. The Lore was also pretty clear about the number of Elder Dragons that survived the Elder Dragon War (the five Legends + Piru).
So that pretty much makes it impossible for Ugin to be an "Elder Dragon", in the official sense. They *could* potentially retcon the lore and say that Ugin planeswalked to Dominaria and took place in the Elder Dragon War, and managed to escape death/depowering (the fate of every other Elder Dragon) by Planeswalking away. But what incentive do they have to do that? Just to make Ugin *identically*-powered in comparison to Bolas?
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If ugin isn't an elder dragon, why is he so similar to bolas? the creative just made him almost identical to bolas because.... i don't know?
i hope they'll explain that, otherwise it will just look like a lazy choice
None of the other elder dragons look like Bolas, so we can't assume anything based on appearances.
If ugin isn't an elder dragon, why is he so similar to bolas? the creative just made him almost identical to bolas because.... i don't know?
i hope they'll explain that, otherwise it will just look like a lazy choice
Are they that similar, actually?
Now compare them to: Bogardan Hellkite is even closer to Bolas than Ugin is, and it's still just a regular dragon with no ties with the Elder.
If ugin isn't an elder dragon, why is he so similar to bolas? the creative just made him almost identical to bolas because.... i don't know?
i hope they'll explain that, otherwise it will just look like a lazy choice
Are they that similar, actually?
Yes, yes they are. I bet my left and right arm that if you were only be able to see a silhouette of the three dragons for a split second you'd mix up Bolas and Ugin all the time, while being able to identify Bogardan Hellkite with relative ease.
It could be that Bolas and Ugin are in the same subtype of dragon, like how Gherri is a Shivan Dragon. This card calls Gherri a hellkite, but later on Darigaaz is referred to as a shivan dragon, so I assumed his mother would be a shivan dragon as well.
If ugin isn't an elder dragon, why is he so similar to bolas? the creative just made him almost identical to bolas because.... i don't know?
i hope they'll explain that, otherwise it will just look like a lazy choice
None of the other elder dragons look like Bolas, so we can't assume anything based on appearances.
To be fair, if we compare the old and the new art, Bolas doesn't even look like himself, so this point is somewhat moot. We don't know what the other elders would look like, if creative would give them a makeover.
Definitely. As others pointed out, they have the exact same body type (very long, snakey torso, almost Eastern Dragon-like in appearance), large prominent horns, both have that "arm gauntlet" armor, both have relatively long arms and very short, squatty legs...Ugin looks way more related to Bolas than any of the other Elder Dragons do. They have to be more than just old rivals.
Interestingly, if you look at the two images you posted side-by-side, it almost looks as if the Ugin art was made to mirror the Nicol Bolas art. They're both in the same pose (relatively) with their heads drawn back, chest puffed out, arms hanging at their sides, one knee out, standing atop rock spires with their wings folded, 'facing' each other. Looks like something right out of a duel deck.
Baseless speculation: could Bolas and Ugin be "twins" - not like humans, but born out of the same initial event (no idea where ancient dragons come from actually), like a mirror image of each other.
As for the similarity between Bolas and other elder dragons, I still have in front of me my Chronicles cards on which at least Bolas, Sabboth and Asmadi look alike to me.
Still, there's differences in Palladia-Mors, Chromium and Asmadi when you compare them to Bolas. Chromium is the closest to the traditional dragon, while Asmadi has a more tapering, serpentine look versus Bolas's crocodilian snout and simian facial features. Palladia-Mors also has a more canine snout versus that of the other dragons. It is hard to tell with Sabboth, since he's looking directly outward from the card's art.
Darigaaz, for example, looks nothing like the Shivan Dragon, even though he is identified as a Shivan Dragon. This is true for all of Darigaaz's appearances in the game: he has that distinctive beaksnout, and the quill-mane.
As are the Shivan Hellkites, though Gherridarigaaz's card (the Urza Block version of Shivan Hellkite) does bear some resemblance to Darigaaz in terms of skull shape.
So that pretty much makes it impossible for Ugin to be an "Elder Dragon", in the official sense. They *could* potentially retcon the lore and say that Ugin planeswalked to Dominaria and took place in the Elder Dragon War, and managed to escape death/depowering (the fate of every other Elder Dragon) by Planeswalking away. But what incentive do they have to do that? Just to make Ugin *identically*-powered in comparison to Bolas?
The Elder Dragon War actually predates Dominaria. Just for the sake of complete accuracy.
Bolas is petty enough to blow the most miniscule slight possible way of out proportion and into a full-on hatred. Barin, does that mean the Elder Dragon War took place within the actual blind eternities?
Bolas is petty enough to blow the most miniscule slight possible way of out proportion and into a full-on hatred. Barin, does that mean the Elder Dragon War took place within the actual blind eternities?
No, it took place across the entire empire, which stretched across gods only know how many worlds.
But Dominaria was not one of them. The Elder Dragons predate that world.
A little off-topic, but: Nicol Bolas (Old art) has some massive books there, or is he picted in his youth there? I can't imagine a young humanoidish dragon being that small even if he's just been hatched. Any theories?
... the Elder Dragons from the Elder Dragon Empire wrote their own dragon-sized books?
... He knows blue magic so he can Downsize himself?
A little off-topic, but: Nicol Bolas (Old art) has some massive books there, or is he picted in his youth there? I can't imagine a young humanoidish dragon being that small even if he's just been hatched. Any theories?
No, the OTHER art from the From the Vault: Dragons depicts Bolas in his youth.
That particular picture from Legends shows him in his dotage.
If that gets you hung up, look at the size of the globe with Arcades Sabboth.
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However, with the fact that Ugin shall almost certainly appear in the next set, Fate Reforged, I wonder if Ugin is also an elder dragon. While Bolas has long been presumed to be the only remaining elder dragon, there is nothing to prevent WotC from saying that Ugin is one, also. Bolas personally fought Ugin in direct combat, rather than having a minion of his do so, meaning that he regards Ugin as an equal and possibly even a threat, which, combined with the fact that Ugin is vaguely similar in appearance to Bolas and is also a very powerful dragon planeswalker, makes him an ideal candidate to be the "big good" of this game, which is something that the game currently lacks.
What does everyone else say about this? Is Ugin an elder dragon? And, if he survives his battle with Bolas due to Sarkhan intervening, will he become the "big good" of this game?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
At the time, Bolas did not have planeswalkers minions like he does now, as far as we know, so that is a good reason to fight another dragon planeswalker, even if not Elder, by himself.
For one, we've been told that Ugin's homeworld is Tarkir itself, and unless that is true of all the Elder Dragons, then that fact alone sort of precludes the possibility.
Even further, is that we know Ugin isn't just a dragon to start with. He's a Spirit Dragon. We don't actually know what that entails, but it would be rather gilding the lily to have him be an Elder on top of that.
Also, you hurt Karn's feelings for not considering him a Big Good.
For one, we've been told that Ugin's homeworld is Tarkir itself, and unless that is true of all the Elder Dragons, then that fact alone sort of precludes the possibility.
Even further, is that we know Ugin isn't just a dragon to start with. He's a Spirit Dragon. We don't actually know what that entails, but it would be rather gilding the lily to have him be an Elder on top of that.
Also, you hurt Karn's feelings for not considering him a Big Good.
Just out of curiosity, why would all Dragon Elders need to come from the same plane?
However, the thing about it the issue is that I don't feel they'd go through the effort to establish the clarity of the situation. It's an extra step I just don't think they'd take. Most people's assumption would be that the Elders all came from the same world, so we'd have people declaring Tarkir the Elder homeworld because of Ugin.
It's worth noting that the Elder Dragons were on Dominaria, and of them, only Nicol Bolas has been indicated to be a Planeswalker. The Lore was also pretty clear about the number of Elder Dragons that survived the Elder Dragon War (the five Legends + Piru).
So that pretty much makes it impossible for Ugin to be an "Elder Dragon", in the official sense. They *could* potentially retcon the lore and say that Ugin planeswalked to Dominaria and took place in the Elder Dragon War, and managed to escape death/depowering (the fate of every other Elder Dragon) by Planeswalking away. But what incentive do they have to do that? Just to make Ugin *identically*-powered in comparison to Bolas?
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None of the other elder dragons look like Bolas, so we can't assume anything based on appearances.
Are they that similar, actually?
Bogardan Hellkite is even closer to Bolas than Ugin is, and it's still just a regular dragon with no ties with the Elder.
This is very good point too.
Yes, yes they are. I bet my left and right arm that if you were only be able to see a silhouette of the three dragons for a split second you'd mix up Bolas and Ugin all the time, while being able to identify Bogardan Hellkite with relative ease.
To be fair, if we compare the old and the new art, Bolas doesn't even look like himself, so this point is somewhat moot. We don't know what the other elders would look like, if creative would give them a makeover.
Definitely. As others pointed out, they have the exact same body type (very long, snakey torso, almost Eastern Dragon-like in appearance), large prominent horns, both have that "arm gauntlet" armor, both have relatively long arms and very short, squatty legs...Ugin looks way more related to Bolas than any of the other Elder Dragons do. They have to be more than just old rivals.
Interestingly, if you look at the two images you posted side-by-side, it almost looks as if the Ugin art was made to mirror the Nicol Bolas art. They're both in the same pose (relatively) with their heads drawn back, chest puffed out, arms hanging at their sides, one knee out, standing atop rock spires with their wings folded, 'facing' each other. Looks like something right out of a duel deck.
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As for the similarity between Bolas and other elder dragons, I still have in front of me my Chronicles cards on which at least Bolas, Sabboth and Asmadi look alike to me.
I do believe however, that Creative did a massive doodoo with that character design of Ugin.
Darigaaz, for example, looks nothing like the Shivan Dragon, even though he is identified as a Shivan Dragon. This is true for all of Darigaaz's appearances in the game: he has that distinctive beaksnout, and the quill-mane.
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The Elder Dragon War actually predates Dominaria. Just for the sake of complete accuracy.
They don't HAVE to be anything of the sort.
But Dominaria was not one of them. The Elder Dragons predate that world.
... the Elder Dragons from the Elder Dragon Empire wrote their own dragon-sized books?
... He knows blue magic so he can Downsize himself?
That particular picture from Legends shows him in his dotage.
If that gets you hung up, look at the size of the globe with Arcades Sabboth.