Again, that makes me return to my original question: why did WotC even chose to use such an element, at all? Have they not ever read books or seen movies that deal with time travel? Do they not understand the sheer horror of altering timelines?
Again, it worked pretty well in the great classic, Back to the Future. Marty McFly successfully improved his own life style, and saved Doc's life, due to time travel.
It is not something to be avoided. It is not inherently wrong doing a time travel story. It is just hard to do, and frankly they shouldn't just stick to easy stories like The Hero's Journey or whatever. They just need to be careful. And if they are successful in that, I'll judge when I see it done.
And why did they (and this is a hugely important question) even bother introducing the world of Tarkir, its people, and its culture, if they were intending to alter it later in the same block?! What was the point of all that effort and world-building, if it would be undone? That is my problem with the time-travel element of the story of this block; that it essentially erases the first set and makes it irrelevant.
What is the point of showing Marty's weak father being bullied by Biff, if they were going to "undo" that and "make it irrelevant" by having an assertive father bossing Biff around in the new timeline? The same for his brother, his sister, his new car...
The contrast is the point. Is no different than Mirrodin->New Phyrexia, or Lorwyn->Shadowmoor.
If they were changing a previously established world with time travel, people would also be reacting negatively to the very idea. There's no other way to have such a story without changing a setting. That's the whole idea.
I did not notice that; thank you very much. However, that makes me wish to ask another question: how could one being be so important to the ecosystem? That makes no sense; in an ecosystem, every being is equally important, so the idea of one being being more important than any other strains credibility, at least it does for me.
He was an oldwalker. That's enough.
If Urza's war could cause the Ice Age, and Freyalise's spell could end it, I don't see any problem with a gigantic dragon that causes storms and creates apex predators from it being considered more important to the system than a little ant or a mundane rabbit or a goblin or whatever.
Again, it worked pretty well in the great classic, Back to the Future. Marty McFly successfully improved his own life style, and saved Doc's life, due to time travel.
It is not something to be avoided. It is not inherently wrong doing a time travel story. It is just hard to do, and frankly they shouldn't just stick to easy stories like The Hero's Journey or whatever. They just need to be careful. And if they are successful in that, I'll judge when I see it done.
What is the point of showing Marty's weak father being bullied by Biff, if they were going to "undo" that and "make it irrelevant" by having an assertive father bossing Biff around in the new timeline? The same for his brother, his sister, his new car...
The contrast is the point. Is no different than Mirrodin->New Phyrexia, or Lorwyn->Shadowmoor.
If they were changing a previously established world with time travel, people would also be reacting negatively to the very idea. There's no other way to have such a story without changing a setting. That's the whole idea.
When you phrase it in that manner, perhaps I can understand the situation better. However, in Back to the Future, the changes that occurred were very minor and affected only Marty's family specifically, not the entire world, but in the case of this block, the changes shall affect all of Tarkir. Perhaps I shall not be too terribly upset about the changed timeline as long as the new timeline is mostly the same, with the only significant difference being that dragons are now still alive and well (i.e., with all five clans still in existence and their khans leading them).
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When you phrase it in that manner, perhaps I can understand the situation better. However, in Back to the Future, the changes that occurred were very minor and affected only Marty's family specifically, not the entire world, but in the case of this block, the changes shall affect all of Tarkir. Perhaps I shall not be too terribly upset about the changed timeline as long as the new timeline is mostly the same, with the only significant difference being that dragons are now still alive and well (i.e., with all five clans still in existence and their khans leading them).
According to the alternate now seen by the Temur, the khans do not lead the clans. Dragons do.
This is not what's going to happen in Fate Reforged, though. Look at the alternate art cards from the Ugin's Fate booster that are to be included in Fate Reforged pre-release events. The most relevant is attached with its KTK original version.
We were told these cards represent Tarkir as it was 1,000 years ago, not an alternate future/present.
Likely things Sarkhans sees during his time travel shenanigans.
You guys know this stuff isn't real right? Sarkon is a fictional character who didn't really travel through time. Most of you are having fun speculating, but some of you guys are wierding me out man lol...
What's wrong with the Chrono Trigger solution here? That is, the fight between Ugin and Bolas appears to play out unchanged from Bolas' standpoint, but there is a change made that prevents Ugin's demise? Bolas leaves, no one in the multiverse cares about what's happening on Tarkir so the massive change to that timeline doesn't make any difference to anyone.
You can have a "chrono trigger" solution in any number of ways:
1. Ugin never actually lost, he just knew he was going to lose so he hid himself in time. Sarkhan realizes that Ugin was never actually killed at all; he stashed his essence away in the form of a Planeswalker-to-be named Sarkhan, and the time travel just puts him back in time right after the fight so that he can take his place as Ugin again. Perhaps Bolas' mind-breaking touch wiped his memory until he returned. Explains the "whispers" he experiences. Explains Bolas' use of him to release the Eldrazi.
2. Sarkhan somehow helps Ugin pretend to be dead by using a substitute or healing him or whatever, as people have said.
Seems like a fine solution without storyline problems. As long as no one ever goes to Tarkir, it's totally self-contained.
I supposed Sarkhan walks into Ugin's Nexus, is magically transported into a timeline where Bolas fought Ugin. Whether in corporeal form or not we don't know.
Perhaps what Ugin wanted from Sarkhan was to inform Ugin's older self of Tarkir's present state, or maybe Sarkhan was presented a mission to save all those Dragons.
What amuses me is that creative underestimated how bothered people would be by the entire thing.
Shocking honestly. I sort of dislike that they just assumed people would be all "Hmm time travel when there are already sort of some kind of rules to it? Sure why the hell not".
And if it's not obvious I'm still not sold on the time travel.
So now, essentially anything that happened and would not fit into their current marketing intent, any retcon they need to do could be "fixed" with "oh hey, walker 1 visited Tarkir 500 years ago, lingered there a bit because of dragons, then failed to be on Innistrad in time save a small kid on from being crushed by wagon, the kid grew up, had a kid as well, who accidentally tripped young grandfather of (insert walker) from a cliff and prevented him/her from being born"?
Might solve Tibalt ...
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So now, essentially anything that happened and would not fit into their current marketing intent, any retcon they need to do could be "fixed" with "oh hey, walker 1 visited Tarkir 500 years ago, lingered there a bit because of dragons, then failed to be on Innistrad in time save a small kid on from being crushed by wagon, the kid grew up, had a kid as well, who accidentally tripped young grandfather of (insert walker) from a cliff and prevented him/her from being born"?
Might solve Tibalt ...
Like they needed such an excuse to make retcons before... *Looks at Mirrodin*
So now, essentially anything that happened and would not fit into their current marketing intent, any retcon they need to do could be "fixed" with "oh hey, walker 1 visited Tarkir 500 years ago, lingered there a bit because of dragons, then failed to be on Innistrad in time save a small kid on from being crushed by wagon, the kid grew up, had a kid as well, who accidentally tripped young grandfather of (insert walker) from a cliff and prevented him/her from being born"?
Might solve Tibalt ...
Like they needed such an excuse to make retcons before... *Looks at Mirrodin*
Yeah. That is my point. That now they would have a half-legitimate excuse.
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While I am fairly neutral in this specific debate, I would like to point out that Doug's post does say that they did at least consider the ramifications of Planeswalkers, and that there may be some.
E.g., we don't really know why Nicol Bolas attacked Ugin, do we? If he did because he didn't like Ugin's stance on the Eldrazi (don't kill them), then perhaps this changes Nahiri's status (between alive and dead) because of the change that occurs in FRF?
There has been endless debate about the exact nature of the time travel that shall be involved in Fate Reforged, as well as the implications and exact results of that time travel, which makes me wish to ask: why is WotC even bothering with a time travel story, at all? Have they not ever read books or seen movies that involve time travel, to know that it is a very tricky and delicate matter, an action that can have far-reaching and sometimes even horrifying consequences? Would it not be much easier and simpler to understand if the story merely involved Sarkhan reviving the dragons of Tarkir in the present day? The idea of traveling backward in time to prevent the dragons from going extinct would be akin to someone in actuality traveling backwards in time to prevent the dodo or Tasmanian wolf from going extinct, when it would be much easier to revive those animals through genetic engineering (or, in this game, using magic to revive the dragons).
What does everyone else say about this? Why is WotC going to utterly change a plane to which they have only just recently introduced us, by using time travel as a story element? Why bother with it, at all?
They want to do another planar chaos. Maybe createa new run of Pantalla or new colors. Think- x-men apocalypse.
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E.g., we don't really know why Nicol Bolas attacked Ugin, do we?
Interesting to note though, on this note, that for the previously current Tarkir, unbeknownst to the population, Nicol Bolas was actually the major hero in their war against the dragons.
Let's be honest, had we simply visited Tarkir 1,208 years ago as a plane, it would focus on the war between the clans and the dragons, and just like Innistrad and Kamigawa and Scars of Mirrodin and Zendikar, the relatible(sp? Is this really not a word?) humans would be the "good guys." That leaves the oppressive dragons as the summoned playthings of one oldwalker. The imagined block supporting this event would have its second set turning point with Bolas killing Ugin and ending the storms. The third set would showcase the clans getting the upper hand and the eventual extinction of the enemy.
Though it would probably be a dues ex machina of Bolas just showing up and battling him with no explanation because "it was just a part of his grand scheme," and possibly no more than dealing with a potential threat, it still leaves Nicol Bolas as the savior of the plane. So far as we know, his only impact on Tarkir was to remove an oppressive dictator that no one misses except a few Jeskai radicals and a creepy vampire who pulled a similar shtick on his own plane, and ultimately turned the tide for the good guys and helped humanity advance in ways in couldn't under the oppression of Ugin's spawn, misguided though the clans may still be.
* * *
Another thing I haven't seen mention of yet, if Bolas battled Ugin a mere 1,208 years ago, how long has it been since the Mending at this point? Last I recall it was some in the four hundred year range with the storyline progressing a year or two at a time once the neowalker storylines got established.
I mean, I remember reading a discussion somewhere about what the effects of time traveling to a pre-Mending era would be on Sarkhan's post-Mending spark, but how could Fate Reforged take place pre-Mending 1,208 years ago and involve Bolas as a character? I assume his previous defeat by Tetsuo Umezawa was more than 1,208 years ago and Venser revived him not too long before the Mending...
Unless... the Fate Reforged part of the story takes place during the events of the Time Spiral arc, sometime between Venser reviving Bolas and the Mending, Bolas walks of to Tarkir to kill Ugin real quick while he's still an oldwalker. If this is true, it would also be interesting to note that Sarkhan will have traveled back in time right into the heart of Time Spiral, which may be the reason it's even possible.
Of course, this begs the question of whether Fate Reforged being pre-Mending was even confirmed anywhere, or just speculated about, but still.
Another thing I haven't seen mention of yet, if Bolas battled Ugin a mere 1,208 years ago, how long has it been since the Mending at this point? Last I recall it was some in the four hundred year range with the storyline progressing a year or two at a time once the neowalker storylines got established.
Whoa! No, you've got some of your wires crossed there.
It's been 400 years since the INVASION, not since the Mending.
It's... difficult to pinpoint when the Mending was because of the Scars of Mirrodin story. They originally had built the entire timeline to be about 60-100 years after the Mending in the Alara block, but by retconning people back onto Mirrodin for the Mirran-Phyrexia war, they found a way to plug Venser in, and THAT royally screwed up the rest of the timeline. With Venser around, without any explanation, it suddenly becomes less than a DECADE since the Mending.
But that doesn't match the details of the better put together timeline for Alara and Venser is DEAD anyways so... call it about 60-100 years and you'd have details to support that. If you take word of god that Venser didn't extend his life, it still doesn't make any sense.
(see? Mirrodin and Venser always manage to screw everything up. That's why I hate them.)
I mean, I remember reading a discussion somewhere about what the effects of time traveling to a pre-Mending era would be on Sarkhan's post-Mending spark, but how could Fate Reforged take place pre-Mending 1,208 years ago and involve Bolas as a character? I assume his previous defeat by Tetsuo Umezawa was more than 1,208 years ago and Venser revived him not too long before the Mending...
It's... difficult to pinpoint when the Mending was because of the Scars of Mirrodin story. They originally had built the entire timeline to be about 60-100 years after the Mending in the Alara block, but by retconning people back onto Mirrodin for the Mirran-Phyrexia war, they found a way to plug Venser in, and THAT royally screwed up the rest of the timeline. With Venser around, without any explanation, it suddenly becomes less than a DECADE since the Mending.
But that doesn't match the details of the better put together timeline for Alara and Venser is DEAD anyways so... call it about 60-100 years and you'd have details to support that. If you take word of god that Venser didn't extend his life, it still doesn't make any sense.
(see? Mirrodin and Venser always manage to screw everything up. That's why I hate them.)
That's the info I remember going off right up until the Mirrodin stuff. Guess I should have assumed it was the reason nothing seemed as I remembered.
Wow, a lot of that was more recent than it seems like it should be. If 1,208 years puts Fate Reforged during the same year that Jhoira rescued Terferi from the slowtime bubble, what was the significance of it being 1,208 years? Why not 1,209, or just 1,000?
If 1,208 years puts Fate Reforged during the same year that Jhoira rescued Terferi from the slowtime bubble, what was the significance of it being 1,208 years? Why not 1,209, or just 1,000?
It's technically 1280, not 1208, not that I think 72 years makes a huge difference.
It's technically 1280, not 1208, not that I think 72 years makes a huge difference.
Oops! At least I got the numbers right.
Pedantry is just one of the many services I provide.
I'm assuming the number isn't arbitrary and that there's a very specific reason they decided it had to be 1280 years in Tarkir's past. My assumption is it needed to be at that point to avoid causing too many other headaches and retcons of the multiverse at large.
Why did WotC choose 1,280 years? That seems to be an oddly random yet specific number, when most authors choose numbers that are rounded to the nearest hundred or thousand.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
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“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
If 1,208 years puts Fate Reforged during the same year that Jhoira rescued Terferi from the slowtime bubble, what was the significance of it being 1,208 years? Why not 1,209, or just 1,000?
It seems like it is probably not coincidental that the year is the same exact year another time-related incident takes place. Perhaps some of the temporal instabilities of the Academy allowed Ugin to form his time portal?
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Again, it worked pretty well in the great classic, Back to the Future. Marty McFly successfully improved his own life style, and saved Doc's life, due to time travel.
It is not something to be avoided. It is not inherently wrong doing a time travel story. It is just hard to do, and frankly they shouldn't just stick to easy stories like The Hero's Journey or whatever. They just need to be careful. And if they are successful in that, I'll judge when I see it done.
What is the point of showing Marty's weak father being bullied by Biff, if they were going to "undo" that and "make it irrelevant" by having an assertive father bossing Biff around in the new timeline? The same for his brother, his sister, his new car...
The contrast is the point. Is no different than Mirrodin->New Phyrexia, or Lorwyn->Shadowmoor.
If they were changing a previously established world with time travel, people would also be reacting negatively to the very idea. There's no other way to have such a story without changing a setting. That's the whole idea.
He was an oldwalker. That's enough.
If Urza's war could cause the Ice Age, and Freyalise's spell could end it, I don't see any problem with a gigantic dragon that causes storms and creates apex predators from it being considered more important to the system than a little ant or a mundane rabbit or a goblin or whatever.
When you phrase it in that manner, perhaps I can understand the situation better. However, in Back to the Future, the changes that occurred were very minor and affected only Marty's family specifically, not the entire world, but in the case of this block, the changes shall affect all of Tarkir. Perhaps I shall not be too terribly upset about the changed timeline as long as the new timeline is mostly the same, with the only significant difference being that dragons are now still alive and well (i.e., with all five clans still in existence and their khans leading them).
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
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According to the alternate now seen by the Temur, the khans do not lead the clans. Dragons do.
Likely things Sarkhans sees during his time travel shenanigans.
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You can have a "chrono trigger" solution in any number of ways:
1. Ugin never actually lost, he just knew he was going to lose so he hid himself in time. Sarkhan realizes that Ugin was never actually killed at all; he stashed his essence away in the form of a Planeswalker-to-be named Sarkhan, and the time travel just puts him back in time right after the fight so that he can take his place as Ugin again. Perhaps Bolas' mind-breaking touch wiped his memory until he returned. Explains the "whispers" he experiences. Explains Bolas' use of him to release the Eldrazi.
2. Sarkhan somehow helps Ugin pretend to be dead by using a substitute or healing him or whatever, as people have said.
Seems like a fine solution without storyline problems. As long as no one ever goes to Tarkir, it's totally self-contained.
Perhaps what Ugin wanted from Sarkhan was to inform Ugin's older self of Tarkir's present state, or maybe Sarkhan was presented a mission to save all those Dragons.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
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What amuses me is that creative underestimated how bothered people would be by the entire thing.
Told you so.
Shocking honestly. I sort of dislike that they just assumed people would be all "Hmm time travel when there are already sort of some kind of rules to it? Sure why the hell not".
And if it's not obvious I'm still not sold on the time travel.
Might solve Tibalt ...
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Like they needed such an excuse to make retcons before... *Looks at Mirrodin*
Yeah. That is my point. That now they would have a half-legitimate excuse.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
They aren't going to go all 'for want of a nail' on the neowalkers ancestors.
E.g., we don't really know why Nicol Bolas attacked Ugin, do we? If he did because he didn't like Ugin's stance on the Eldrazi (don't kill them), then perhaps this changes Nahiri's status (between alive and dead) because of the change that occurs in FRF?
They want to do another planar chaos. Maybe createa new run of Pantalla or new colors. Think- x-men apocalypse.
Modern: UR Dragonfish
Legacy: Merfolk
Tiny Leaders: Mono Anafenza
Interesting to note though, on this note, that for the previously current Tarkir, unbeknownst to the population, Nicol Bolas was actually the major hero in their war against the dragons.
Let's be honest, had we simply visited Tarkir 1,208 years ago as a plane, it would focus on the war between the clans and the dragons, and just like Innistrad and Kamigawa and Scars of Mirrodin and Zendikar, the relatible(sp? Is this really not a word?) humans would be the "good guys." That leaves the oppressive dragons as the summoned playthings of one oldwalker. The imagined block supporting this event would have its second set turning point with Bolas killing Ugin and ending the storms. The third set would showcase the clans getting the upper hand and the eventual extinction of the enemy.
Though it would probably be a dues ex machina of Bolas just showing up and battling him with no explanation because "it was just a part of his grand scheme," and possibly no more than dealing with a potential threat, it still leaves Nicol Bolas as the savior of the plane. So far as we know, his only impact on Tarkir was to remove an oppressive dictator that no one misses except a few Jeskai radicals and a creepy vampire who pulled a similar shtick on his own plane, and ultimately turned the tide for the good guys and helped humanity advance in ways in couldn't under the oppression of Ugin's spawn, misguided though the clans may still be.
Another thing I haven't seen mention of yet, if Bolas battled Ugin a mere 1,208 years ago, how long has it been since the Mending at this point? Last I recall it was some in the four hundred year range with the storyline progressing a year or two at a time once the neowalker storylines got established.
I mean, I remember reading a discussion somewhere about what the effects of time traveling to a pre-Mending era would be on Sarkhan's post-Mending spark, but how could Fate Reforged take place pre-Mending 1,208 years ago and involve Bolas as a character? I assume his previous defeat by Tetsuo Umezawa was more than 1,208 years ago and Venser revived him not too long before the Mending...
Unless... the Fate Reforged part of the story takes place during the events of the Time Spiral arc, sometime between Venser reviving Bolas and the Mending, Bolas walks of to Tarkir to kill Ugin real quick while he's still an oldwalker. If this is true, it would also be interesting to note that Sarkhan will have traveled back in time right into the heart of Time Spiral, which may be the reason it's even possible.
Of course, this begs the question of whether Fate Reforged being pre-Mending was even confirmed anywhere, or just speculated about, but still.
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It's been 400 years since the INVASION, not since the Mending.
It's... difficult to pinpoint when the Mending was because of the Scars of Mirrodin story. They originally had built the entire timeline to be about 60-100 years after the Mending in the Alara block, but by retconning people back onto Mirrodin for the Mirran-Phyrexia war, they found a way to plug Venser in, and THAT royally screwed up the rest of the timeline. With Venser around, without any explanation, it suddenly becomes less than a DECADE since the Mending.
But that doesn't match the details of the better put together timeline for Alara and Venser is DEAD anyways so... call it about 60-100 years and you'd have details to support that. If you take word of god that Venser didn't extend his life, it still doesn't make any sense.
(see? Mirrodin and Venser always manage to screw everything up. That's why I hate them.)
Bolas was only "dead" for about 500 years.
You can find more info here:
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Timeline
Commander Decks
WDarien, King of KjeldorW - WYomiji, Who Bars the WayW - UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
BPhage the UntouchableB - BShirei,
Shadowborn Ap-Shizo's CaretakerB - RZirilan of the ClawR(W/U)Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper(W/U) - (2/G)Phelddagrif Politics(W/U) - (U/B)Mishra, Artificer Prodigy(U/R) - Karona, God of Voltron
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Oops! At least I got the numbers right.
Commander Decks
WDarien, King of KjeldorW - WYomiji, Who Bars the WayW - UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
BPhage the UntouchableB - BShirei,
Shadowborn Ap-Shizo's CaretakerB - RZirilan of the ClawR(W/U)Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper(W/U) - (2/G)Phelddagrif Politics(W/U) - (U/B)Mishra, Artificer Prodigy(U/R) - Karona, God of Voltron
I'm assuming the number isn't arbitrary and that there's a very specific reason they decided it had to be 1280 years in Tarkir's past. My assumption is it needed to be at that point to avoid causing too many other headaches and retcons of the multiverse at large.
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“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
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It seems like it is probably not coincidental that the year is the same exact year another time-related incident takes place. Perhaps some of the temporal instabilities of the Academy allowed Ugin to form his time portal?
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