The new duel decks were announced on the mother ship and there is a section of the description that makes me wonder: "Elspeth Tirel sees herself as the protector of the Multiverse." Since when was this? I admit I haven't read the books, just looked up the summaries and discussed the stories on the boards, but as far as I've gatehered, Elspeth has never been concerned with the multiverse. She has spent a good portion of her plotlines running from conflict and responsibilty. Her spark ignited in a phyrexian death camp(I think), she tried to protect Bant until the planes reformed (she could have stayed but chose to leave), she practically had to be dragged into the conflict on Mirrodin, and when she first came to Theros she was seeking peace, not to become Theros' protector.
Am I missing something? Do I have some details of her story incorrect?
Well, at least half the time, short blurbs are fairly inaccurate to the actual characters of the planeswalkers. Which is, at least, more accuracy than flavor text quotes can claim.
I don't really think Elspeth has ever had the confidence to declare herself something like protector of the multiverse. In fact, she usually seems to be somewhat intimidated by the size and scope of it.
Yea, I'm pretty sure I don't have all the details. Honestly, the short blurbs have never gotten me interested in reading them. In fact they have all made me want to NOT read them. Oh and my research is a little more than just the "blurbs". I wouldn't quite say "In depth" story summaries, but more than blurbs. Anyway, I only show as much an interest as I do because I am a writer and story is very important to me. So when I see bits and pieces of the story on the cards, I get curious.
That's what I thought. Based on how she always ends up trying to protect people (Bant, Mirrodin, Theros) I figured she might be considered a protector, but I didn't think she thought of herself in that way. Maybe that's an idadvertant hint as to what will happen with her when she comes back? I guess we'll find out, whenever they get around to showing it to us. That's part of my issue with Wizard's stories in general. Taken by itself, I think Theros is a horrible overall story(Because to me when you look at an overall story, the ending is a major part of that). Taken as part 1 and the second part is where we get the actual ending and the full story, my opinion of it might soften. I'll admit I hadn't considered initially that they were killing her solely because they decided to write aressurection story and that requires a death. Even if that is the case though, it's literally going to take years before we find out. It's exhausting to me which is probably why I come off as pessimistic when it comes to their stories. Too much time to think about the negative.
Everytime she was acting like a guardian, she was more or less reluctant to accept the role and it usually ended up badly overall(with the exception of Theros, where is ended up badly for her).
I am much more concerned with the drift from actual story planeswalker conflicts to "duels" of random by-goers (resp. we-are-by-chance-sharing-the-same-plane-and-time).
The meeting of Elspeth and Ajani with Kiora in guise of Callaphe hardly counts as substantial reason for a "duel".
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Sorry if I was unclear--my reference to "short blurbs" was talking about the duel deck description, not making any assumptions about your previous reading material.
I have to admit, I was really hoping to see this duel deck advance Elspeth's plot. It's a hell of a cliffhanger they left her on, so the sooner we know more, the better. At the same time, I can't really think of a planeswalker duel that could really do that.
I suppose the real question is whether they're going to give this duel deck an associated Uncharted Realms the way they did with Jace vs. Vraska. And, if they do, what on earth it would be about.
That's the my problem with their plots in general is since they tie the plots so closely to the blocks they take forever for any advancement. I'm really hoping they don't wait for the return to Theros to continue her plot. The way they ended her book, that type of cliffhanger is on my top 10 list of writer deadly sins. It's unfair to everyone, the characters, the readers, it's actually unfair to the writer as well because there is never any guaruntee that they will get to finish writing their story.
Sadly, the only cop-out we can settle for is "Time will tell" unless someone asks MaRo when we will continue her plot and he actually gives a real answer.
That's the my problem with their plots in general is since they tie the plots so closely to the blocks they take forever for any advancement. I'm really hoping they don't wait for the return to Theros to continue her plot. The way they ended her book, that type of cliffhanger is on my top 10 list of writer deadly sins. It's unfair to everyone, the characters, the readers, it's actually unfair to the writer as well because there is never any guaruntee that they will get to finish writing their story.
Sadly, the only cop-out we can settle for is "Time will tell" unless someone asks MaRo when we will continue her plot and he actually gives a real answer.
Hopefully they will revisit Theros sometime soon in Uncharted Realms or maybe she will get a card in the final core set.
Elspeth is an interesting contradiction of self preservation and righteous morality, but she is definitely not the protector of the multiverse.
As I've said before, I really don't think her return would need to be tied to a Theros set--in fact, I'd argue it wouldn't make sense.
Either the block would have to be about her return from the Underworld, which wouldn't serve the needs of a return to a top-down world, or she'd have to come back to life as an afterthought, which would be a very poor move for such a significant event.
When she does return, it doesn't actually make any sense for her to remain on-world. There's nothing left for her--her position as Champion has been revoked and shown to be Heliod's posturing, she has no real tie to the people of the world, and the one thing that really could have kept her on Theros--her love for Daxos--was cleverly cut out of the picture by having him become a Returned.
Given Elspeth's character development in the Ordeal of Erebos, I find it more likely that she makes a beeline for New Phyrexia than that she remains on Theros.
That's true. I mean speaking from a purely writing standpoint, it is a significant event deserving of a full story/book, but in the context of story-block relations, one of the other would probably suffer if they tied her return to the story of the return to Theros.
I also agree that there is no reason at present for her to remain on Theros. Now when she comes back, she may decide to join Ajani in his Crusade against the gods that he started in an UR story a month or two ago, but again her revival should be the focal point of the the story it happens in, not an aside in the conflict against the gods.
Out of curiosity, what happened in the Ordeal of Erebos that makes her so eager to return to New Phyrexia? I actually doubt that will happen by the way, until we see what happened to Koth. I feel like his return, or at least the discovery of exactly what happened to him, will herald the return to New Phyrexia.
I disagree about Elspeth's inevitable reappearance. When she escapes from the Underworld it will almost certainly be as one of the Returned, and since we've never seen a Returned 'walker before there's no reason to assume she'd either A) still be able to leave Theros or B) remember that she's a planeswalker at all. The Returned forget all of their former lives, after all. I imagine she'd wake up with no idea of who she is or how she got there, full of righteous indignation because of what Heliod did to her but no idea why. Ajani could then be involved in helping her remember who she is, and the two of them might finally give Heliod what's coming to him.
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Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
I don't buy that she'll "almost certainly" be a Returned. They've been pretty clear about the fact that she hasn't put the mask on, and is looking for other ways out of the Underworld. Is there a chance she might? Yes, but I consider it about as likely--maybe even less--than her finding an alternative.
Even if she does come back as a Returned, Phyrexia has made much more of an impression on her than Heliod. It seems more likely to me in that case that she would end up planeswalking to New Phyrexia without knowing what she was doing or how she was doing it--by the same argument that you claim she may not remember that she's a planeswalker, she may not remember enough to understand that what she's doing should be impossible.
Heliod betrayed her in an instant, but Phyrexia has loomed all her life. Since the Returned are said to seek out what was important to them in life, I just don't see a Returned Elspeth prioritizing Heliod.
Out of curiosity, what happened in the Ordeal of Erebos that makes her so eager to return to New Phyrexia?
It's not so much that she's eager to return to New Phyrexia as that she accepts that nobody ever promised her a peaceful life. She made the decision to fight instead of just accepting the life that she'd always dreamed of. She has abandoned the idea of escaping to an idyllic world somewhere in the multiverse, so it makes me suspect that she may try to confront the shadows that she has fled since she was a child.
I actually doubt that will happen by the way, until we see what happened to Koth. I feel like his return, or at least the discovery of exactly what happened to him, will herald the return to New Phyrexia.
We already know what happened to Koth. He survived the explosion and is lurking in the Furnace Layer.
I disagree about Elspeth's inevitable reappearance. When she escapes from the Underworld it will almost certainly be as one of the Returned, and since we've never seen a Returned 'walker before there's no reason to assume she'd either A) still be able to leave Theros or B) remember that she's a planeswalker at all. The Returned forget all of their former lives, after all. I imagine she'd wake up with no idea of who she is or how she got there, full of righteous indignation because of what Heliod did to her but no idea why. Ajani could then be involved in helping her remember who she is, and the two of them might finally give Heliod what's coming to him.
I really hope that is not what is going to happen, but given wizard's track record, that is the outcome I fear will happen. If they go that route, I think in the long run she will end up with her memories back and end up being the Elspeth people know. It's just, that route is a terribly depressing way of going about it, in my opinion.
Out of curiosity, what happened in the Ordeal of Erebos that makes her so eager to return to New Phyrexia?
It's not so much that she's eager to return to New Phyrexia as that she accepts that nobody ever promised her a peaceful life. She made the decision to fight instead of just accepting the life that she'd always dreamed of. She has abandoned the idea of escaping to an idyllic world somewhere in the multiverse, so it makes me suspect that she may try to confront the shadows that she has fled since she was a child.
That's... sad. At least, what that could mean is depressing. It's great that she is no longer running from her past, but it seems to me that she is altogether giving up on happiness for herself. I've said for a while that if any character deserves to be happy, a moment of reprieve from all the combat even if it's not for the rest of her life, it's Elspeth. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the way you've said it makes it sound like she has resigned herself to fighting until she dies and that's not the ending that Elspeth deserves. Escaping to an idyllic paradise, maybe that's too far. But I think she deserves to be able to have a place to call home where she doesn't have to fight all the time.
I actually doubt that will happen by the way, until we see what happened to Koth. I feel like his return, or at least the discovery of exactly what happened to him, will herald the return to New Phyrexia.
We already know what happened to Koth. He survived the explosion and is lurking in the Furnace Layer.
Oh that is interesting. I did not know that. When was that mentioned? And I guess while I'm asking questions do we have any finite word on what happened to Melira? Last I heard she and her keepers were being overwhelmed off-screen.
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Am I missing something? Do I have some details of her story incorrect?
I don't really think Elspeth has ever had the confidence to declare herself something like protector of the multiverse. In fact, she usually seems to be somewhat intimidated by the size and scope of it.
That's what I thought. Based on how she always ends up trying to protect people (Bant, Mirrodin, Theros) I figured she might be considered a protector, but I didn't think she thought of herself in that way. Maybe that's an idadvertant hint as to what will happen with her when she comes back? I guess we'll find out, whenever they get around to showing it to us. That's part of my issue with Wizard's stories in general. Taken by itself, I think Theros is a horrible overall story(Because to me when you look at an overall story, the ending is a major part of that). Taken as part 1 and the second part is where we get the actual ending and the full story, my opinion of it might soften. I'll admit I hadn't considered initially that they were killing her solely because they decided to write aressurection story and that requires a death. Even if that is the case though, it's literally going to take years before we find out. It's exhausting to me which is probably why I come off as pessimistic when it comes to their stories. Too much time to think about the negative.
Everytime she was acting like a guardian, she was more or less reluctant to accept the role and it usually ended up badly overall(with the exception of Theros, where is ended up badly for her).
I am much more concerned with the drift from actual story planeswalker conflicts to "duels" of random by-goers (resp. we-are-by-chance-sharing-the-same-plane-and-time).
The meeting of Elspeth and Ajani with Kiora in guise of Callaphe hardly counts as substantial reason for a "duel".
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I have to admit, I was really hoping to see this duel deck advance Elspeth's plot. It's a hell of a cliffhanger they left her on, so the sooner we know more, the better. At the same time, I can't really think of a planeswalker duel that could really do that.
I suppose the real question is whether they're going to give this duel deck an associated Uncharted Realms the way they did with Jace vs. Vraska. And, if they do, what on earth it would be about.
That's the my problem with their plots in general is since they tie the plots so closely to the blocks they take forever for any advancement. I'm really hoping they don't wait for the return to Theros to continue her plot. The way they ended her book, that type of cliffhanger is on my top 10 list of writer deadly sins. It's unfair to everyone, the characters, the readers, it's actually unfair to the writer as well because there is never any guaruntee that they will get to finish writing their story.
Sadly, the only cop-out we can settle for is "Time will tell" unless someone asks MaRo when we will continue her plot and he actually gives a real answer.
Hopefully they will revisit Theros sometime soon in Uncharted Realms or maybe she will get a card in the final core set.
Elspeth is an interesting contradiction of self preservation and righteous morality, but she is definitely not the protector of the multiverse.
Either the block would have to be about her return from the Underworld, which wouldn't serve the needs of a return to a top-down world, or she'd have to come back to life as an afterthought, which would be a very poor move for such a significant event.
When she does return, it doesn't actually make any sense for her to remain on-world. There's nothing left for her--her position as Champion has been revoked and shown to be Heliod's posturing, she has no real tie to the people of the world, and the one thing that really could have kept her on Theros--her love for Daxos--was cleverly cut out of the picture by having him become a Returned.
Given Elspeth's character development in the Ordeal of Erebos, I find it more likely that she makes a beeline for New Phyrexia than that she remains on Theros.
I also agree that there is no reason at present for her to remain on Theros. Now when she comes back, she may decide to join Ajani in his Crusade against the gods that he started in an UR story a month or two ago, but again her revival should be the focal point of the the story it happens in, not an aside in the conflict against the gods.
Out of curiosity, what happened in the Ordeal of Erebos that makes her so eager to return to New Phyrexia? I actually doubt that will happen by the way, until we see what happened to Koth. I feel like his return, or at least the discovery of exactly what happened to him, will herald the return to New Phyrexia.
Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Tovolar, Howlpack Alpha
Pivlic, Orzhov Informant
Crixizix, Master Engineer
Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
Even if she does come back as a Returned, Phyrexia has made much more of an impression on her than Heliod. It seems more likely to me in that case that she would end up planeswalking to New Phyrexia without knowing what she was doing or how she was doing it--by the same argument that you claim she may not remember that she's a planeswalker, she may not remember enough to understand that what she's doing should be impossible.
Heliod betrayed her in an instant, but Phyrexia has loomed all her life. Since the Returned are said to seek out what was important to them in life, I just don't see a Returned Elspeth prioritizing Heliod.
It's not so much that she's eager to return to New Phyrexia as that she accepts that nobody ever promised her a peaceful life. She made the decision to fight instead of just accepting the life that she'd always dreamed of. She has abandoned the idea of escaping to an idyllic world somewhere in the multiverse, so it makes me suspect that she may try to confront the shadows that she has fled since she was a child.
We already know what happened to Koth. He survived the explosion and is lurking in the Furnace Layer.
I really hope that is not what is going to happen, but given wizard's track record, that is the outcome I fear will happen. If they go that route, I think in the long run she will end up with her memories back and end up being the Elspeth people know. It's just, that route is a terribly depressing way of going about it, in my opinion.
That's... sad. At least, what that could mean is depressing. It's great that she is no longer running from her past, but it seems to me that she is altogether giving up on happiness for herself. I've said for a while that if any character deserves to be happy, a moment of reprieve from all the combat even if it's not for the rest of her life, it's Elspeth. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the way you've said it makes it sound like she has resigned herself to fighting until she dies and that's not the ending that Elspeth deserves. Escaping to an idyllic paradise, maybe that's too far. But I think she deserves to be able to have a place to call home where she doesn't have to fight all the time.
Oh that is interesting. I did not know that. When was that mentioned? And I guess while I'm asking questions do we have any finite word on what happened to Melira? Last I heard she and her keepers were being overwhelmed off-screen.