If you judge a person's intelligence by their upbringing, then you kind of disqualified yourself.
Also, wit =/= knowledge. Additionally, education is such a biased term. Garruk knows a LOT of things you don't, just that he didn't learn it in books. Education usually ecompasses only a narrow set of knowledge, useful mostly within the boundaries of civilization.
First you say strength cannot be measured on a linear scale and then you do the exact same thing with intelligence and knowledge. This is the beauty of people claiming they're smarter than others, it usually backfires.
It's known that the phrase "match wits against" colloquially means to put ones mental faculties against that of another.
Education is not a biased term unless you bias it yourself. Garruk is educated in his own way. His father taught him farming and nature magic. That is a form of education. It doesn't require a classroom or books. Gideon received an apprenticeship style education from Hixus. These aren't "traditional" educations the way we in modern times think of it but they are none the less forms of it. Certainly everyone knows things that I don't as I know things that others don't, that is simply the nature of something which is infinite. However; It's measurable. In the same way Garruk's ability to knock me out is measurable. For example: If I want to lead an army in straight combat I'm going to go looking for Odric, Master Tactician but if I can't find I'm I wont be afraid to do it myself if Garruk is my opponent. However if we're going to perform an ambush in the jungle I'll take Garruk. My point remains that it is unfair to try and measure characters against each other without any sort of categorization. I mean seriously, how is it fair to try and measure Garruk or Gideon, accomplished warriors, against Jace or Tamiyo who are renowned intellectuals? And there really is no comparing Bolas and Ugin to any of the rest of them.
My point remains that it is unfair to try and measure characters against each other without any sort of categorization.
That's why experience and age is the best measure which puts the pre-mending walkers clearly on the top. Just like random young mage boy shouldn't be able to stand against Gandalf or Dumbledore the same should be true when it comes to the planeswalkers. I don't devour the magic storyline like some other people do but I think that has been true so far.
After those you are right though. It's too hard to really measure who is "stronger" without some sort of criteria and there is no significant age/experience divide between them which you could use.
1. Bolas/Ugin should be obvious. I am genuinely considering putting Sorin into this group as well, but I can see that the narrative WotC is going for is the two dragons being the best.
2. Sorin and Karn should equally be obvious.
3. Garruk has always been a powerhouse, but after he embraced/succumbed to his corruption, he was killing walkers left and right, and made quick work of Jace. Let us not forget that despite being weakened from the corruption and enduring constant crippling pain he was still able to overpower Liliana in Triumph of Ferocity, even if only briefly.
4. Liliana w/ Veil. She was able to overpower Garruk in his original state, but despite going for a killshot, she could only wound the man. Considering that she was able to overpower Garruk at all means she's pretty powerful.
5. Tezzeret, Ajani, Koth and Gideon. This is the "veteran" tier. Koth, Ajani and Gideon are seasoned warriors that apply their magic to combat. Tezzeret is in this group because he's shown himself to be more powerful than Jace (the only reason Jace triumphed over him was carefully-layered subterfuge that failed the first time and the incompetence of Tezzeret's own men), and by extension the other walkers in his tier. Gideon had no problem in his "fight" with Chandra, despite her trying her best to immolate him.
6. Jace, Liliana, Chandra etc. Jace has proven himself competent. Liliana did not want to get into a fight with Tezzeret because he was so powerful, so she manipulated Jace into doing it. Chandra has shown herself to only be even with Jace. Elspeth doesn't come off as particularly powerful, since she avoids combat situations that would truly test her, and Xenagos showed nothing extraordinary in his time around.
While I doubt we'll ever get definitive answers, and creative will change things as per the needs of the ongoing story... as a fun thought exercise:
Only ranking of Planeswalker's with printed cards (sorry Urza / Taysir), and taking them in their current state (sorry Elspeth / Venser / Ob Nixilis), and talking about magical duelling / physical combat skills (some are lovers not fighters, looking at you Tamiyo)
Tier 1: The Elite
Bolas / Ugin / Karn
Tier 2: The Artificially Enhanced
Garruk Worldslayer / Lili with Veil
Tier 3: The Veterans
Sorin, Ajani, Tezzeret, Nahiri
Tier 4: The Powerful
Ashiok, Jace, Gideon, Chandra, Sarkhan,
Sorin being in the same tier as Ajani is dubious. In "In the Teeth of Akoum" he destroyed an entire legion of Eldrazi brood lineage with a single spell that didn't at all tax him, while Nissa and her elves got annihilated by just a few of them. Sorin's a tier above the regulars.
Garruk Worldslayer would be right under Bolas/Ugin-tier, if not in it, and far above Liliana. Apex Predator is also above Liliana in power, and at worse just equal to her, given his performance against her before he embraced/fell to the black.
The way I see Ajani "beating" Bolas is like this: think of a game that pitted you against the final boss much earlier than you were supposed to. You clearly don't have the ability to beat said boss but there is something in the level provided for you by the game that you can use to otherwise win a fight you weren't supposed to.
Ajani managed to use the leftover mana from the Maelstrom to create a Bolas avatar to fight Bolas. Without that crutch, he would have gotten hard-bodied like anyone else.
Daretti is definitely not dead we just don't know much about him since he's only been in a commander product. Wait til we go to Kaladesh, it's the perfect setting for him to break out. Elspeth and Xenagos are "dead". Like Theros dead. Like cats come out of there all the time. Also I think you underestimate Tibalt. I mean yeah his card was the straight worst but that's not necessarily a reflection of his actual combat abilities. I mean he's a pain mage. I'd bet he'd give Jace, who I wouldn't put as highly as you have if we're talking about straight dueling ability, a run for his money.
@Worshipper: Happy to concede pretty much all points... some of the source material I just haven't seen (ie. virtually anything referring to Dack). But also refer my point below about rivalries.
@TerrorKing: Some of my ratings (as I said this is a thought exercise), are based on my understanding of how creative is setting up rivalries (ie. Garruk vs Lil, Ashiok vs Jace). And while I'm willing to accept that Sorin is strong, killing broodlings is right in his wheelhouse so shouldn't take him much effort, and Ajani has moved into a Mr Miyagi supreme teacher role so I wouldn't under-value his capabilities.
@Gutterstorm: I thought Daretti was presumed dead (or at least dissappeared without explanation) based on the Fiora storylines (from Conspiracy)... but true it is an unknown. I'll be honest it was a bit of a cop out rating because we know so little about his actual combat abilities (I'd guess as an artificer he'd be in my non-combatant tier, but that is only a guess). As for Tibalt, you're probably right but he's spent so little time on camera it's hard to know.
Sorin being in the same tier as Ajani is dubious. In "In the Teeth of Akoum" he destroyed an entire legion of Eldrazi brood lineage with a single spell that didn't at all tax him, while Nissa and her elves got annihilated by just a few of them. Sorin's a tier above the regulars.
Garruk Worldslayer would be right under Bolas/Ugin-tier, if not in it, and far above Liliana. Apex Predator is also above Liliana in power, and at worse just equal to her, given his performance against her before he embraced/fell to the black.
Far above? Liliana with the veil curb-stomped Garruk into the ground. It was entirely one-sided. As long as she wields the Veil, she is significantly more powerful than Garruk.
OT: Most powerful PW was Urza, followed by Mishra. After that is up for debate, with Ugin and Bolas up near the top.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Far above? Liliana with the veil curb-stomped Garruk into the ground. It was entirely one-sided. As long as she wields the Veil, she is significantly more powerful than Garruk.
My explanations are right on this page. The Garruk Liliana fought on Innistrad was weakened from months of resisting the curse, which he described as constant, maddening unrelenting pain, and we know it weakened his powers. That Garruk got the upper hand on her in Triumph of Ferocity. When they fought on Shandalar, despite her blasting him with the intent to kill, Garruk survived there on the floor until he was strong enough to start hunting her (during which time he also beat Jace easily). Apex Predator is Garruk after he's fully succumbed to the curse and is no longer fighting it, meaning all of his power and more is present, and he shows it by killing Walker after walker without any hint of effort, and again beat a much more experienced Jace just as easily as the first time. Finally, as Garruk Worldslayer, he has enough power to destroy all of Shandalar. Let that sink in.
What's Liliana done with the Veil? Killed two demons, but fail to kill Garruk. Seems to me he's "far above."
Far above? Liliana with the veil curb-stomped Garruk into the ground. It was entirely one-sided. As long as she wields the Veil, she is significantly more powerful than Garruk.
OT: Most powerful PW was Urza, followed by Mishra. After that is up for debate, with Ugin and Bolas up near the top.
Normal Garruk yes. Apex Predator I'm not sure. I'd put them about equal there.
Mishra was not a planeswalker. Urza is weaker than bolas. Elder dragons were on par with walkers. You can't beat someone that is both. Urza was supposed to be the strongest walker before bolas, but the same thing happened with Teysir who ''was the strongest'' before Urza came along. What made Urza dangerous (much like Tezzeret) was his artifacts and his genius, not his magic. Hell if it wasn't for Xantcha he would have lost to Gix, who (although was possibly the strongest) was just a phyrexian demon.
Daretti is definitely not dead we just don't know much about him since he's only been in a commander product. Wait til we go to Kaladesh, it's the perfect setting for him to break out. Elspeth and Xenagos are "dead". Like Theros dead. Like cats come out of there all the time. Also I think you underestimate Tibalt. I mean yeah his card was the straight worst but that's not necessarily a reflection of his actual combat abilities. I mean he's a pain mage. I'd bet he'd give Jace, who I wouldn't put as highly as you have if we're talking about straight dueling ability, a run for his money.
Jace I think is a hard person to gauge in terms of strength. I think you're 100% correct and, in a straight up spellslinging slugfest, Jace loses to just about everyone on this list. In that sense he kinda belongs with the "non-combatants". All he really has are counterspells and illusions, which are good at buying time but not really a whole lot else.
Except, Jace's real "power" is his telepathy. Jace doesn't need to beat you in a fight. He just needs to get in your head long enough to make you forget how to breathe. And unless you're one of those super ancient God-like 'walkers, like Bolas, Ugin, Karn, or Sorin, then you probably don't have a mind strong enough to keep him out. Ashiok probably does too, I'd guess, but that's because Ashiok lives in people's heads as well. Remember that Liliana only had protection from Jace's mind-reading because of Bolas.
So yeah, Jace can be terrifyingly powerful... in the right circumstances. For now he may be a better fit on the "non-combatants" list with an footnote.
EDIT: Also I agree that Sorin needs to be higher on that list. Dude's an ancient vampire capable of annihilating Eldrazi Spawn with the flick of his wrist and also still an accomplished swordfighter on top of that. I'm assuming Nahiri will be a similar case but we don't really know where her powers stand right now.
God tier: Nicol Bolas, Ugin
Almost godly: Karn, Liliana Vess, Sorin Markov, Cursed Garruk
The most powerful normal planeswalkers: Sarkhan Vol, regular Garruk, Jace
The decent walkers: Ashiok, Ajani, Gideon, Nissa, Koth, Kiora, Tezzeret, Tibalt, Dack Fayden
The a little less powerful walkers: Vraska, Ral Zarek, Domri Rade
Roll Tier: Chandra
???: Nahiri, Daretti, Narset, Tamiyo
I think Jace is much like Batman. Given time to prepare he can almost never lose but suddenly thrown up against a powerful enough opponent and he might not do so well.
Also: It's been shown that Garruk, and at least for a while Tezzeret, were able to resist Jace's mind fudgery.
I think Jace is much like Batman. Given time to prepare he can almost never lose but suddenly thrown up against a powerful enough opponent and he might not do so well.
Also: It's been shown that Garruk, and at least for a while Tezzeret, were able to resist Jace's mind fudgery.
The closest walker to Batman would really be Tezzeret. He prepares, and uses artifacts to much greater effect than his otherwise limited spellcasting ability (without his etherium arm he was weak for a regular mage).
Also, why do a lot of people keep ranking Bolas over Ugin? Yes, Bolas won when they fought, but that was only because he had set a trap by having Yasova make those runes to turn the dragons on Ugin. Without that, Ugin would have won handily, and before the dragons swarmed (so anywhere but Tarkir), it was a pretty even fight. Bolts won because he was the aggressor, Ugin was just flying around doing whatever when Bolas planeswalked in and attacked him. Any even fight is going to go to the one who prepared and attacked over the person who was surprised. Bolas vs Ugin is inconclusive, especially considering the fight was pre-mending, and we don't know how that affected them (perhaps Ugin, as a spirit dragon, is less affected by age, or maybe Bolas's efforts to regain power have put him well above Ugin in the current story).
At the current moment (going into BFZ)
Ugin/Bolas
Karn
Lilliana
Sorin
Most other walkers (Ral, Nissa, Kiora, Koth, Sarkhan, Ajani, Gideon, Chandra, Ashiok,)
Jace, Tezzeret, Vraska
Dack, Tamiyo, Tibalt
These are pretty set. Jace, despite being a poster boy for mtg, is not actually that powerful. He is a strong mind mage, but far from a combat specialist.
However, that middle tier is full of unknowns. Gideon we haven't seen do much except be indestructible and wield his surral (of course, if you can't harm him a regular weapon can be enough). Sarkhan appears to have gotten a lot stronger since regaining his sanity, but we don't know how strong. Nissa is similar, we know she is stronger as Worldwaker, but all we've seen is take down a large Eldrazi brood. Kiora can summon some big fish, but it takes time and requires being in the ocean. We also don't know how much the Bident does, if anything (its possible that off Theros it is just a spear). Ajani we know was strong, but we have little proof of how powerful he is now .(btw, his fight with Brimaz was not with his normal weapon, he didn't use magic, Brimaz is a beast in hand-to-hand combat, and Brimaz himself said afterwards that Ajani`s problem was his lack of will).
Unfortunately, walkers don't fight each other or fight similar opponents often enough (for how many there are) to be able to say definitively who is stronger in most cases.
These are pretty set. Jace, despite being a poster boy for mtg, is not actually that powerful. He is a strong mind mage, but far from a combat specialist.
Minor nitpick: Power does not exclusively equal combat proficiency. A king is powerful, but throw him into an arena against a hungry lion and he will die.
Considering Jace is the guildpact incarnate, one could argue he is a pretty powerful deal on Ravnica, on par with the guildleaders, at least in terms of influence.
This should be fun... but there's obviously not going to be a consensus about it, i think the pre-mending planeswalkers stand solidly on the top tier:
Ugin/Bolas: They are not only pre-mending planeswalkers, they are also Elder Dragons, we don't know how much the mending affected Ugin, but we know Bolas regained quite a bit of power with the conflux.
Karn: Again, not only premending planeswalker, but the Legacy weapon on top of it, he's probably on par or close to Ugin/Bolas.
Liliana: She was a human pre-mending planeswalker, severely weakened by the mending, but after 4 demonic pacts she was supposed to be close to her former power, and then there's the chain veil, so yeah, she's probably up there, she also slayed 2 of those demons one of them being Grisseldad.
The Raven man, we don't know much about him, but we do know that he is a pre-mending planeswalker, and he recently tangled with Veil-empowered Liliana and survived, didn't even break a sweat.
Sorin: Pre-mending Vampire Planeswalker, severely weakened by the mending, but still capable of impressive feats, he also freed Ugin with some powerful blood magic, he's probably in the tail of the Upper tier, but still up there.
The rest: I'm guessing every post-mending planeswalker, as powerful as they might be, they probably don't come close to the upper tier.
This should be fun... but there's obviously not going to be a consensus about it, i think the pre-mending planeswalkers stand solidly on the top tier:
Ugin/Bolas: They are not only pre-mending planeswalkers, they are also Elder Dragons, we don't know how much the mending affected Ugin, but we know Bolas regained quite a bit of power with the conflux.
Karn: Again, not only premending planeswalker, but the Legacy weapon on top of it, he's probably on par or close to Ugin/Bolas.
Liliana: She was a human pre-mending planeswalker, severely weakened by the mending, but after 4 demonic pacts she was supposed to be close to her former power, and then there's the chain veil, so yeah, she's probably up there, she also slayed 2 of those demons one of them being Grisseldad.
The Raven man, we don't know much about him, but we do know that he is a pre-mending planeswalker, and he recently tangled with Veil-empowered Liliana and survived, didn't even break a sweat.
Sorin: Pre-mending Vampire Planeswalker, severely weakened by the mending, but still capable of impressive feats, he also freed Ugin with some powerful blood magic, he's probably in the tail of the Upper tier, but still up there.
The rest: I'm guessing every post-mending planeswalker, as powerful as they might be, they probably don't come close to the upper tier.
Opinions?
We don't know whether Ugin is an Elder Dragon or not yet. Aside from that I'd say that Lili is about equal with Sorin and Karn when she has the Veil. I think she's closer to the rest when not wearing it. The Raven Man is a mystery. It can be just a figment of Lili's imagination for all we know.
This should be fun... but there's obviously not going to be a consensus about it, i think the pre-mending planeswalkers stand solidly on the top tier:
Ugin/Bolas: They are not only pre-mending planeswalkers, they are also Elder Dragons, we don't know how much the mending affected Ugin, but we know Bolas regained quite a bit of power with the conflux.
Karn: Again, not only premending planeswalker, but the Legacy weapon on top of it, he's probably on par or close to Ugin/Bolas.
Liliana: She was a human pre-mending planeswalker, severely weakened by the mending, but after 4 demonic pacts she was supposed to be close to her former power, and then there's the chain veil, so yeah, she's probably up there, she also slayed 2 of those demons one of them being Grisseldad.
The Raven man, we don't know much about him, but we do know that he is a pre-mending planeswalker, and he recently tangled with Veil-empowered Liliana and survived, didn't even break a sweat.
Sorin: Pre-mending Vampire Planeswalker, severely weakened by the mending, but still capable of impressive feats, he also freed Ugin with some powerful blood magic, he's probably in the tail of the Upper tier, but still up there.
The rest: I'm guessing every post-mending planeswalker, as powerful as they might be, they probably don't come close to the upper tier.
Opinions?
We don't know whether Ugin is an Elder Dragon or not yet.
You know what they say, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
I know we aren't really using cards for this argument but I really think we need to point out Karn's ultimate. Conceptually it means that Karn, at best, can still do crazy world shaping effects even as a neo-walker, and at worst can manipulate time within short stretches of time. The effect is obviously meant to be a flavourful one as well so while we aren't counting cards overall, I think it's relevant just based on what it represents. We don't really know the Full scale of Karn's abilities at moment so judging that he's weaker than Bolas is a little overblown.
People here also seem to be forgetting Ugin who almost beat Bolas pre-mending, if Bolas hadn't had help. I will say we don't know how powerful he is post mending. Those 3 are runaway winners though probably followed up by lili+veil and Sorin.
Edit: Well this is what happens when you don't check post dates and your phone glitches in a way where it doesn't show you there are more pages.
To be fair that was back when Nissa was repressing her spark and abilities in general. She wanted to fit in and that was partly her undoing at times. She redeemed herself when she summoned three elementals and killed an Eldrazi spawn in her Worldwaker story.
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So sorry if someone has already stated this? But how has Urza not yet come up in conversation? He is an outstanding planeswalker, while having been dead for some time now, his legacy still lives on. (Hehe, get it?)
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It's known that the phrase "match wits against" colloquially means to put ones mental faculties against that of another.
Education is not a biased term unless you bias it yourself. Garruk is educated in his own way. His father taught him farming and nature magic. That is a form of education. It doesn't require a classroom or books. Gideon received an apprenticeship style education from Hixus. These aren't "traditional" educations the way we in modern times think of it but they are none the less forms of it. Certainly everyone knows things that I don't as I know things that others don't, that is simply the nature of something which is infinite. However; It's measurable. In the same way Garruk's ability to knock me out is measurable. For example: If I want to lead an army in straight combat I'm going to go looking for Odric, Master Tactician but if I can't find I'm I wont be afraid to do it myself if Garruk is my opponent. However if we're going to perform an ambush in the jungle I'll take Garruk. My point remains that it is unfair to try and measure characters against each other without any sort of categorization. I mean seriously, how is it fair to try and measure Garruk or Gideon, accomplished warriors, against Jace or Tamiyo who are renowned intellectuals? And there really is no comparing Bolas and Ugin to any of the rest of them.
That's why experience and age is the best measure which puts the pre-mending walkers clearly on the top. Just like random young mage boy shouldn't be able to stand against Gandalf or Dumbledore the same should be true when it comes to the planeswalkers. I don't devour the magic storyline like some other people do but I think that has been true so far.
After those you are right though. It's too hard to really measure who is "stronger" without some sort of criteria and there is no significant age/experience divide between them which you could use.
Bolas/Ugin
Karn/Sorin
BG Garruk
Liliana w/ Veil
Tezzeret, Ajani, Koth, Gideon
Jace, Liliana, Chandra, Elspeth, Xenagos etc.
Domri, Tibalt, Dack.
Explanations:
1. Bolas/Ugin should be obvious. I am genuinely considering putting Sorin into this group as well, but I can see that the narrative WotC is going for is the two dragons being the best.
2. Sorin and Karn should equally be obvious.
3. Garruk has always been a powerhouse, but after he embraced/succumbed to his corruption, he was killing walkers left and right, and made quick work of Jace. Let us not forget that despite being weakened from the corruption and enduring constant crippling pain he was still able to overpower Liliana in Triumph of Ferocity, even if only briefly.
4. Liliana w/ Veil. She was able to overpower Garruk in his original state, but despite going for a killshot, she could only wound the man. Considering that she was able to overpower Garruk at all means she's pretty powerful.
5. Tezzeret, Ajani, Koth and Gideon. This is the "veteran" tier. Koth, Ajani and Gideon are seasoned warriors that apply their magic to combat. Tezzeret is in this group because he's shown himself to be more powerful than Jace (the only reason Jace triumphed over him was carefully-layered subterfuge that failed the first time and the incompetence of Tezzeret's own men), and by extension the other walkers in his tier. Gideon had no problem in his "fight" with Chandra, despite her trying her best to immolate him.
6. Jace, Liliana, Chandra etc. Jace has proven himself competent. Liliana did not want to get into a fight with Tezzeret because he was so powerful, so she manipulated Jace into doing it. Chandra has shown herself to only be even with Jace. Elspeth doesn't come off as particularly powerful, since she avoids combat situations that would truly test her, and Xenagos showed nothing extraordinary in his time around.
7. Tibalt, Dack and Domri. 'nuff said.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Only ranking of Planeswalker's with printed cards (sorry Urza / Taysir), and taking them in their current state (sorry Elspeth / Venser / Ob Nixilis), and talking about magical duelling / physical combat skills (some are lovers not fighters, looking at you Tamiyo)
Tier 1: The Elite
Bolas / Ugin / Karn
Tier 2: The Artificially Enhanced
Garruk Worldslayer / Lili with Veil
Tier 3: The Veterans
Sorin, Ajani, Tezzeret, Nahiri
Tier 4: The Powerful
Ashiok, Jace, Gideon, Chandra, Sarkhan,
Tier 5: The Talented
Kiora, Koth, Narset, Nissa, Ral Zarek, Domri, Vraska
Tier 6: The non-Combatants
Dack, Tamiyo, Tibalt
Excluded: *I might have some of these wrong
Elspeth (Dead), Freyalise (Lost Spark), Ob nixilis (Lost Spark), Teferi (Lost Spark), Venser (Dead), Xenagos (Dead), Daretti (Dead)
Garruk Worldslayer would be right under Bolas/Ugin-tier, if not in it, and far above Liliana. Apex Predator is also above Liliana in power, and at worse just equal to her, given his performance against her before he embraced/fell to the black.
Your mods are terrified of me.
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@TerrorKing: Some of my ratings (as I said this is a thought exercise), are based on my understanding of how creative is setting up rivalries (ie. Garruk vs Lil, Ashiok vs Jace). And while I'm willing to accept that Sorin is strong, killing broodlings is right in his wheelhouse so shouldn't take him much effort, and Ajani has moved into a Mr Miyagi supreme teacher role so I wouldn't under-value his capabilities.
@Gutterstorm: I thought Daretti was presumed dead (or at least dissappeared without explanation) based on the Fiora storylines (from Conspiracy)... but true it is an unknown. I'll be honest it was a bit of a cop out rating because we know so little about his actual combat abilities (I'd guess as an artificer he'd be in my non-combatant tier, but that is only a guess). As for Tibalt, you're probably right but he's spent so little time on camera it's hard to know.
Far above? Liliana with the veil curb-stomped Garruk into the ground. It was entirely one-sided. As long as she wields the Veil, she is significantly more powerful than Garruk.
OT: Most powerful PW was Urza, followed by Mishra. After that is up for debate, with Ugin and Bolas up near the top.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
My explanations are right on this page. The Garruk Liliana fought on Innistrad was weakened from months of resisting the curse, which he described as constant, maddening unrelenting pain, and we know it weakened his powers. That Garruk got the upper hand on her in Triumph of Ferocity. When they fought on Shandalar, despite her blasting him with the intent to kill, Garruk survived there on the floor until he was strong enough to start hunting her (during which time he also beat Jace easily). Apex Predator is Garruk after he's fully succumbed to the curse and is no longer fighting it, meaning all of his power and more is present, and he shows it by killing Walker after walker without any hint of effort, and again beat a much more experienced Jace just as easily as the first time. Finally, as Garruk Worldslayer, he has enough power to destroy all of Shandalar. Let that sink in.
What's Liliana done with the Veil? Killed two demons, but fail to kill Garruk. Seems to me he's "far above."
Your mods are terrified of me.
Normal Garruk yes. Apex Predator I'm not sure. I'd put them about equal there.
Mishra was not a planeswalker. Urza is weaker than bolas. Elder dragons were on par with walkers. You can't beat someone that is both. Urza was supposed to be the strongest walker before bolas, but the same thing happened with Teysir who ''was the strongest'' before Urza came along. What made Urza dangerous (much like Tezzeret) was his artifacts and his genius, not his magic. Hell if it wasn't for Xantcha he would have lost to Gix, who (although was possibly the strongest) was just a phyrexian demon.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
Jace I think is a hard person to gauge in terms of strength. I think you're 100% correct and, in a straight up spellslinging slugfest, Jace loses to just about everyone on this list. In that sense he kinda belongs with the "non-combatants". All he really has are counterspells and illusions, which are good at buying time but not really a whole lot else.
Except, Jace's real "power" is his telepathy. Jace doesn't need to beat you in a fight. He just needs to get in your head long enough to make you forget how to breathe. And unless you're one of those super ancient God-like 'walkers, like Bolas, Ugin, Karn, or Sorin, then you probably don't have a mind strong enough to keep him out. Ashiok probably does too, I'd guess, but that's because Ashiok lives in people's heads as well. Remember that Liliana only had protection from Jace's mind-reading because of Bolas.
So yeah, Jace can be terrifyingly powerful... in the right circumstances. For now he may be a better fit on the "non-combatants" list with an footnote.
EDIT: Also I agree that Sorin needs to be higher on that list. Dude's an ancient vampire capable of annihilating Eldrazi Spawn with the flick of his wrist and also still an accomplished swordfighter on top of that. I'm assuming Nahiri will be a similar case but we don't really know where her powers stand right now.
God tier: Nicol Bolas, Ugin
Almost godly: Karn, Liliana Vess, Sorin Markov, Cursed Garruk
The most powerful normal planeswalkers: Sarkhan Vol, regular Garruk, Jace
The decent walkers: Ashiok, Ajani, Gideon, Nissa, Koth, Kiora, Tezzeret, Tibalt, Dack Fayden
The a little less powerful walkers: Vraska, Ral Zarek, Domri Rade
Roll Tier: Chandra
???: Nahiri, Daretti, Narset, Tamiyo
Also: It's been shown that Garruk, and at least for a while Tezzeret, were able to resist Jace's mind fudgery.
The closest walker to Batman would really be Tezzeret. He prepares, and uses artifacts to much greater effect than his otherwise limited spellcasting ability (without his etherium arm he was weak for a regular mage).
Also, why do a lot of people keep ranking Bolas over Ugin? Yes, Bolas won when they fought, but that was only because he had set a trap by having Yasova make those runes to turn the dragons on Ugin. Without that, Ugin would have won handily, and before the dragons swarmed (so anywhere but Tarkir), it was a pretty even fight. Bolts won because he was the aggressor, Ugin was just flying around doing whatever when Bolas planeswalked in and attacked him. Any even fight is going to go to the one who prepared and attacked over the person who was surprised. Bolas vs Ugin is inconclusive, especially considering the fight was pre-mending, and we don't know how that affected them (perhaps Ugin, as a spirit dragon, is less affected by age, or maybe Bolas's efforts to regain power have put him well above Ugin in the current story).
At the current moment (going into BFZ)
Ugin/Bolas
Karn
Lilliana
Sorin
Most other walkers (Ral, Nissa, Kiora, Koth, Sarkhan, Ajani, Gideon, Chandra, Ashiok,)
Jace, Tezzeret, Vraska
Dack, Tamiyo, Tibalt
These are pretty set. Jace, despite being a poster boy for mtg, is not actually that powerful. He is a strong mind mage, but far from a combat specialist.
However, that middle tier is full of unknowns. Gideon we haven't seen do much except be indestructible and wield his surral (of course, if you can't harm him a regular weapon can be enough). Sarkhan appears to have gotten a lot stronger since regaining his sanity, but we don't know how strong. Nissa is similar, we know she is stronger as Worldwaker, but all we've seen is take down a large Eldrazi brood. Kiora can summon some big fish, but it takes time and requires being in the ocean. We also don't know how much the Bident does, if anything (its possible that off Theros it is just a spear). Ajani we know was strong, but we have little proof of how powerful he is now .(btw, his fight with Brimaz was not with his normal weapon, he didn't use magic, Brimaz is a beast in hand-to-hand combat, and Brimaz himself said afterwards that Ajani`s problem was his lack of will).
Unfortunately, walkers don't fight each other or fight similar opponents often enough (for how many there are) to be able to say definitively who is stronger in most cases.
Minor nitpick: Power does not exclusively equal combat proficiency. A king is powerful, but throw him into an arena against a hungry lion and he will die.
Considering Jace is the guildpact incarnate, one could argue he is a pretty powerful deal on Ravnica, on par with the guildleaders, at least in terms of influence.
Ugin/Bolas: They are not only pre-mending planeswalkers, they are also Elder Dragons, we don't know how much the mending affected Ugin, but we know Bolas regained quite a bit of power with the conflux.
Karn: Again, not only premending planeswalker, but the Legacy weapon on top of it, he's probably on par or close to Ugin/Bolas.
Liliana: She was a human pre-mending planeswalker, severely weakened by the mending, but after 4 demonic pacts she was supposed to be close to her former power, and then there's the chain veil, so yeah, she's probably up there, she also slayed 2 of those demons one of them being Grisseldad.
The Raven man, we don't know much about him, but we do know that he is a pre-mending planeswalker, and he recently tangled with Veil-empowered Liliana and survived, didn't even break a sweat.
Sorin: Pre-mending Vampire Planeswalker, severely weakened by the mending, but still capable of impressive feats, he also freed Ugin with some powerful blood magic, he's probably in the tail of the Upper tier, but still up there.
The rest: I'm guessing every post-mending planeswalker, as powerful as they might be, they probably don't come close to the upper tier.
Opinions?
We don't know whether Ugin is an Elder Dragon or not yet. Aside from that I'd say that Lili is about equal with Sorin and Karn when she has the Veil. I think she's closer to the rest when not wearing it. The Raven Man is a mystery. It can be just a figment of Lili's imagination for all we know.
UBarrin, Master WizardU
USticher GeralfU
UIxidor, Reality SculptorU
UWNoyan Dar, Roil ShaperUW
You know what they say, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Then it's a 7-legged, hornless Unicorn!
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
People here also seem to be forgetting Ugin who almost beat Bolas pre-mending, if Bolas hadn't had help. I will say we don't know how powerful he is post mending. Those 3 are runaway winners though probably followed up by lili+veil and Sorin.
Edit: Well this is what happens when you don't check post dates and your phone glitches in a way where it doesn't show you there are more pages.
Thanks to XenoNinja at Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sig.