But we can all agree that Tibalt is the worst Walker card printed, and Urza is the worst Walker printed on a card that is not a Walker. Blind Seer is Urza, for those wondering what awful card I'm talking about.)
Bolas is definitely the top of the food chain, as mentioned, he has to be for every reason.
But other than him, everyone is subjective, sorin may have created avacyn, but creation doesn't equate to combat abilities, how long did it take him to nake avacyn? Because if it comes to creating other beings, ashiok's god would trump an angel. And an army of zombies is going to trump an army of soldiers, especially when they'll die and turn into more zombies, so you can't take creating/summoning/calling for an army of any kind as combat power. If you include summoning, it has to be a quick summoning, like koth turning the land itself into a creature, or if garruk is in the forest, calling on beasts for an [card]Overrun[/c].
As for xenagos, he can't be a god off of theros, the devotion isn't there, so he is just a tricky little satyr everywhere that isn't theros.
And if you really want to compare walkers, you have to start with some kind of neutral ground nd use that place only for comparison, otherwise, it turns into, well here this walker can do this, and that walker can do that.
But other than him, everyone is subjective, sorin may have created avacyn, but creation doesn't equate to combat abilities, how long did it take him to nake avacyn?
That's a good question. She isn't wearing an obscene amount of clothing, but some of it looks awkward to remove. I hope we can get more info on that in an upcoming Uncharted Realms article.
But other than him, everyone is subjective, sorin may have created avacyn, but creation doesn't equate to combat abilities, how long did it take him to nake avacyn?
That's a good question. She isn't wearing an obscene amount of clothing, but some of it looks awkward to remove. I hope we can get more info on that in an upcoming Uncharted Realms article.
LOL, I didn't even notice my typo, but it still is a valid question, how often do they write the articles?
[quote from="Xenannigans »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/570051-lore-wise-who-are-the-strongest-planeswalkers?comment=58"]But other than him, everyone is subjective, sorin may have created avacyn, but creation doesn't equate to combat abilities, how long did it take him to nake avacyn?
That's a good question. She isn't wearing an obscene amount of clothing, but some of it looks awkward to remove. I hope we can get more info on that in an upcoming Uncharted Realms article.
LOL, I didn't even notice my typo, but it still is a valid question, how often do they write the articles?[/quote
Uncharted Realms is a weekly column, every Wednesday. But the last two were "Planeswalker's Guide to Khans of Tarkir" instead of a tale.
We should be getting a new tale today in four hours or so.
Sorin is dealing with much bigger things than a mad Garruk. Garruk is a powerhouse physically, but on an open battle field, superior casting will crush him. Yes he can summon beasts, but we know Elspeth can kill things like Polukranos, World Eater, so his little beast isn't that scary. Sorin will just send a horde of vamps at it or take control of it, Bolas will make Garruk even more insane than he already is, Karn will simply exile it. Sharkan will laugh and turn into a dragon, while Ajani will create a double of Garruk and let him fight himself while he casts lightning helix.
Garruk is good in his element, tight, dark, woodlands. Outside of that and he is like Kiora on dry land.
And Icy will just freeze the water in his head. Except Garruk killed him.
Garruk is really, really good at killing people now. There's a reason he has "destroy target Planeswalker" on a basic ability. And no Planeswalker bar Bolas is immune to an axe to the face.
I'd put him in a tie for second place with Karn and Sorin. As in, whoever gets the jump on the other wins. His card is in a trifecta of I win Planeswalkers with Bolas and Karn and he's very hyped up in the DotP and Uncharted Realms (and the card game, really).
As much as I like Sorin, he hasn't actually done anything yet. Beating Tibalt doesn't count and his cards wern't overwhelming either. All we have to go on are flavortexts, his cool card image and that he's old.
Icy also was caught by surprise, so it's by no means a good testament to Garruk's supposed strength.
Unless everyone is drugged out of their minds, even someone like Tibalt is immune to Garruk, being able to severely injure or kill him before his head gets chopped off.
Let's be honest. What type of fight is gong to start out "you go over to the far side of this field and we will cast stuff at each other". Garruk is a predator. And predators do not make deals with prey. Icy should have been prepared. Liliana is in for a nice tall can of whoop ass. Jace tasted it, he knows how bitter it is. And as for being "drugged out of their minds", well, none of the other walkers he has killed or defeated have been drugged out of their minds to my knowledge. But then maybe Jace was chasing the dragon, and Icy was smoking meth. Get it? Icy was smoking ice. Hahaha....ahhhh I slay myself sometimes.
[quote from="echelon_house »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-storyline/570051-lore-wise-who-are-the-strongest-planeswalkers?comment=43"]That's ... actually a pretty good analogy. I guess this would be my estimate at a rough "power tier", but take it with a grain of salt. Like others have said, it all depends on the situation, environment, etc. Unfortunately, for many of the current neowalkers we really just don't have much evidence for how powerful they are because they haven't done enough in the story to demonstrate it.
Pretty much the only ones I have to disagree with are Nissa, who was shown to be very capable at hand to hand combat with her staff/vine sword, and Tezzeret, who really needs to be divided between etherium enhanced and not.
Actually, we've been told that Tezzeret is a horrible mage. He cheats to make up for that though.
</blockquote>
At the climax of Test of Metal, Tezz was crazy powerful. He killed an arbitrarily large amount of not-quite-bolas's. They weren't up to the real Bolas standards but they were powerful. The books ending didn't make much sense but he seemed to have lost most of that power by Mirrodin...
In terms of sheer ability, it's generally going to be the oldest and most experienced walkers with the most power: Nicol Bolas, Sorin, Karn, Liliana. With the Mending, the playing field was leveled and the inherent ability of the planeswalker's creature type became important. Sorin and Liliana would have taken huge hits in power because Vampires and Humans simply aren't in the same league as Elder Dragons (which, to be fair, they weren't in pre-mending anyway).
I agree with this.
Nicol Bolas, Karn, Sorin and Liliana should form the top-tier as pre-mending walkers whose experience dwarfs the experience from all the others. I think they could defeat all others if they really wanted to.
What's more interesting is Ugin here. I think he should be included in that top-tier from now on too. He could stand up to Bolas after all.
Top tier: Bolas, Ugin and Karn .
High tier: Liliana + Chain Veil, Accursed Garruk, Xenagod.
Low Tier: Tybalt, Dorim, maybe Dack Fayden.
Normal tier: Xenegos on Theros, everyone else.
My criterion is simple:
1. The PW being featured in CMC 7+ cards means WotC wants to showcase this character as being mighty and thus it belongs in either the top tier and the high tier.
2. The PW being featured only in cmc 3- cards means WotC wants to showcase this character as inexperience and not on pair with the normal tier walkers.
3. Everyone else is normal tier and not much can be said about their power level.
4. Use the lore to fill in the gaps, like separating between top and high tier and checking if the supposed low tier walker is really that inexperienced. For example, I suspect Dack Feyden can be considered low tier because he is always running from stuff Chandra would incinerate, Ral would explode, Garruk would burry under a rhino, etc...
Top tier: Bolas, Ugin and Karn .
High tier: Liliana + Chain Veil, Accursed Garruk, Xenagod.
Low Tier: Tybalt, Dorim, maybe Dack Fayden.
Normal tier: Xenegos on Theros, everyone else.
My criterion is simple:
1. The PW being featured in CMC 7+ cards means WotC wants to showcase this character as being mighty and thus it belongs in either the top tier and the high tier.
2. The PW being featured only in cmc 3- cards means WotC wants to showcase this character as inexperience and not on pair with the normal tier walkers.
3. Everyone else is normal tier and not much can be said about their power level.
4. Use the lore to fill in the gaps, like separating between top and high tier and checking if the supposed low tier walker is really that inexperienced.
I think Tibalt's low mana cost is supposed to represent the fact that it's very easy to get him to help you. It's not exactly hard to convince him to hurt people.
"Hey Tibalt, I need your help!"
"No, screw you!"
"A shame, then I guess I'll have torment these people here all by myself."
"Wait you said torment? I'm on my way!"
Honestly I don't think straight up power rankings is fair. I mean I don't want to get into a fist fight with Garruk or Gideon but I'd match wits with either on any day. However I don't want to play chess with Jace or Tamiyo but I bet I could beat them in fisticuffs as long as I could keep Jace from doing what he did with the Gruul to beat Ruric-Thar in The Secretist. And if losing to Sorin means I might get him to make me a Vampire then I'll take a dive for superhuman powers and obscenely long life. I think Sarkhan has an advantage in that he can turn into a dragon.
Honestly I don't think straight up power rankings is fair. I mean I don't want to get into a fist fight with Garruk or Gideon but I'd match wits with either on any day. However I don't want to play chess with Jace or Tamiyo but I bet I could beat them in fisticuffs as long as I could keep Jace from doing what he did with the Gruul to beat Ruric-Thar in The Secretist. And if losing to Sorin means I might get him to make me a Vampire then I'll take a dive for superhuman powers and obscenely long life. I think Sarkhan has an advantage in that he can turn into a dragon.
Why do you assume Garruk (and Gideon) are not intelligent?
1) Urza
2) Nicol Bolas
3) Taysir of Rabiah
4) Teferi
5) Serra Honorable Mentions: Karn, Jeska, Freyalise Note: Nobody said what living planeswalkers were the most powerful. Just which planeswalkers were the most powerful in terms of cards. (Yes Urza and Serra have cards, vanguard cards to be specific.) Plus then you have to make the argument regarding indivudal versions of walkers: Well which version of say...Jace are you talking about? Are we talking about Jace, the Mind Sculptor or are we talking about Jace, Memory Adept or even Jace, Architect of Thought. As this is where the waters become muddy and you try to make a case for which walker is the most powerful while also trying to include their card forms while also looking at it from a storyline perspective.
Why do you assume Garruk (and Gideon) are not intelligent?
I didn't say they're dumb but I'd match my wit and education vs a street tough or a "boy raised by wolves" any day. Sure they may have combat intelligence but I wouldn't want either leading an army or trying to solve some kind of problem to which hitting is not the solution. My point was that most of the walkers have specialties that make trying to create a general power ranking unfair. If you're ranking based on ability to cause widespread devastation then certainly Chandra, Kiora or Ral who have the very elements at their beck and call will be higher ranked than the likes of Jace or Dack. If you rank them on physical combat ability Gideon or Garruk will be highly ranked while Tamiyo and Ashiok will be left out in the cold. I think the only ones we can say are objectively the most powerful are Bolas and Ugin, perhaps with Karn a decent distance behind them.
Out of the living PLaneswalkers:
Bolas> Ugin (As he needed Sarkhan's help) > Sorin/Nahiri (Assuming Nahiri's alive and well, if not, probs after the next one) > Liliana
Out of the living PLaneswalkers:
Bolas> Ugin (As he needed Sarkhan's help) > Sorin/Nahiri (Assuming Nahiri's alive and well, if not, probs after the next one) > Liliana
Bolas, Ugin, Karn, Lilliana with the Veil and Sorin are top tier. Even without the Veil, I still think Lilliana would at least round out the top group by virtue of how long she's had to master her magic as an Oldwalker. The rest are conditional to compare IMO. Xenagos as a god is too tricky to even consider for this conversation, and frankly he was a false aberration of a god at best considering the great lengths he went to maintain divinity without proper devotion. In reality this boils down to Bolas/Ugin and Non-Bolas/Ugin walkers if it comes to that. But those like Lilliana and Sorin have the advantage of time over most others.
Kiora got wrecked by Thassa. I'm not sure if that says more about Theros god power, or about her standing as a PW. I'd say the former, personally.
For me, at least with regards to the surviving ones, I'd rank them this way:
Bolas top
Ugin vs Karn for 2nd place
Liliana with Veil most likely next
Sorin
The rest is a bit wobbly...
Nahiri (if she's still alive) is somewhere high up, but below Lili and Sorin (although how far below is a point of discussion)
Ashiok... possibly up there, if only by virtue of their potential age
Cursed Garruk is powerful, but still mostly brute force, so unlikely to be near top 5
The other Origins planeswalkers (Gideon, Jace, Chandra and Nissa) are far too average to be called powerful, well, maybe compared to the four Jace may be most powerful, or rather, dangerous thanks to his telepathy
Same deal with Ajani and Kiora, rather average (and Kiora's loss to Thassa just proves the point that she has much to learn)
The rest are not quite worth discussing at present
Umm what are you talking about? His memories where only erased (majorly) once, after his duel with Alhammarret.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
I didn't say they're dumb but I'd match my wit and education vs a street tough or a "boy raised by wolves" any day. Sure they may have combat intelligence but I wouldn't want either leading an army or trying to solve some kind of problem to which hitting is not the solution. My point was that most of the walkers have specialties that make trying to create a general power ranking unfair. If you're ranking based on ability to cause widespread devastation then certainly Chandra, Kiora or Ral who have the very elements at their beck and call will be higher ranked than the likes of Jace or Dack. If you rank them on physical combat ability Gideon or Garruk will be highly ranked while Tamiyo and Ashiok will be left out in the cold. I think the only ones we can say are objectively the most powerful are Bolas and Ugin, perhaps with Karn a decent distance behind them.
If you judge a person's intelligence by their upbringing, then you kind of disqualified yourself.
Also, wit =/= knowledge. Additionally, education is such a biased term. Garruk knows a LOT of things you don't, just that he didn't learn it in books. Education usually ecompasses only a narrow set of knowledge, useful mostly within the boundaries of civilization.
First you say strength cannot be measured on a linear scale and then you do the exact same thing with intelligence and knowledge. This is the beauty of people claiming they're smarter than others, it usually backfires.
But other than him, everyone is subjective, sorin may have created avacyn, but creation doesn't equate to combat abilities, how long did it take him to nake avacyn? Because if it comes to creating other beings, ashiok's god would trump an angel. And an army of zombies is going to trump an army of soldiers, especially when they'll die and turn into more zombies, so you can't take creating/summoning/calling for an army of any kind as combat power. If you include summoning, it has to be a quick summoning, like koth turning the land itself into a creature, or if garruk is in the forest, calling on beasts for an [card]Overrun[/c].
As for xenagos, he can't be a god off of theros, the devotion isn't there, so he is just a tricky little satyr everywhere that isn't theros.
And if you really want to compare walkers, you have to start with some kind of neutral ground nd use that place only for comparison, otherwise, it turns into, well here this walker can do this, and that walker can do that.
Major thanks to Traprootkami for the signature.
Major thanks to Traprootkami for the signature.
Uncharted Realms is a weekly column, every Wednesday. But the last two were "Planeswalker's Guide to Khans of Tarkir" instead of a tale.
We should be getting a new tale today in four hours or so.
Well put. I completely concur.
Let's be honest. What type of fight is gong to start out "you go over to the far side of this field and we will cast stuff at each other". Garruk is a predator. And predators do not make deals with prey. Icy should have been prepared. Liliana is in for a nice tall can of whoop ass. Jace tasted it, he knows how bitter it is. And as for being "drugged out of their minds", well, none of the other walkers he has killed or defeated have been drugged out of their minds to my knowledge. But then maybe Jace was chasing the dragon, and Icy was smoking meth. Get it? Icy was smoking ice. Hahaha....ahhhh I slay myself sometimes.
At the climax of Test of Metal, Tezz was crazy powerful. He killed an arbitrarily large amount of not-quite-bolas's. They weren't up to the real Bolas standards but they were powerful. The books ending didn't make much sense but he seemed to have lost most of that power by Mirrodin...
{
if(intoFunnyTags)
{funnyThing.attachText}
if(intoMOvieClips)
{flashAnimation.attachMovieClip}
}
I agree with this.
Nicol Bolas, Karn, Sorin and Liliana should form the top-tier as pre-mending walkers whose experience dwarfs the experience from all the others. I think they could defeat all others if they really wanted to.
What's more interesting is Ugin here. I think he should be included in that top-tier from now on too. He could stand up to Bolas after all.
Top tier: Bolas, Ugin and Karn .
High tier: Liliana + Chain Veil, Accursed Garruk, Xenagod.
Low Tier: Tybalt, Dorim, maybe Dack Fayden.
Normal tier: Xenegos on Theros, everyone else.
My criterion is simple:
1. The PW being featured in CMC 7+ cards means WotC wants to showcase this character as being mighty and thus it belongs in either the top tier and the high tier.
2. The PW being featured only in cmc 3- cards means WotC wants to showcase this character as inexperience and not on pair with the normal tier walkers.
3. Everyone else is normal tier and not much can be said about their power level.
4. Use the lore to fill in the gaps, like separating between top and high tier and checking if the supposed low tier walker is really that inexperienced. For example, I suspect Dack Feyden can be considered low tier because he is always running from stuff Chandra would incinerate, Ral would explode, Garruk would burry under a rhino, etc...
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I think Tibalt's low mana cost is supposed to represent the fact that it's very easy to get him to help you. It's not exactly hard to convince him to hurt people.
"Hey Tibalt, I need your help!"
"No, screw you!"
"A shame, then I guess I'll have torment these people here all by myself."
"Wait you said torment? I'm on my way!"
Also of note should be his extremely low loyalty.
Why do you assume Garruk (and Gideon) are not intelligent?
1) Urza
2) Nicol Bolas
3) Taysir of Rabiah
4) Teferi
5) Serra
Honorable Mentions: Karn, Jeska, Freyalise
Note: Nobody said what living planeswalkers were the most powerful. Just which planeswalkers were the most powerful in terms of cards. (Yes Urza and Serra have cards, vanguard cards to be specific.) Plus then you have to make the argument regarding indivudal versions of walkers: Well which version of say...Jace are you talking about? Are we talking about Jace, the Mind Sculptor or are we talking about Jace, Memory Adept or even Jace, Architect of Thought. As this is where the waters become muddy and you try to make a case for which walker is the most powerful while also trying to include their card forms while also looking at it from a storyline perspective.
I didn't say they're dumb but I'd match my wit and education vs a street tough or a "boy raised by wolves" any day. Sure they may have combat intelligence but I wouldn't want either leading an army or trying to solve some kind of problem to which hitting is not the solution. My point was that most of the walkers have specialties that make trying to create a general power ranking unfair. If you're ranking based on ability to cause widespread devastation then certainly Chandra, Kiora or Ral who have the very elements at their beck and call will be higher ranked than the likes of Jace or Dack. If you rank them on physical combat ability Gideon or Garruk will be highly ranked while Tamiyo and Ashiok will be left out in the cold. I think the only ones we can say are objectively the most powerful are Bolas and Ugin, perhaps with Karn a decent distance behind them.
Bolas> Ugin (As he needed Sarkhan's help) > Sorin/Nahiri (Assuming Nahiri's alive and well, if not, probs after the next one) > Liliana
Bolas had Yasovas help. ;P
Bolas > Ugin
>Other Oldwalkers.
Liliana w Veil > Sorin = Nahiri > Karn >Liliana without Veil = Probably Ob Nixilis
>PWs with control over elements/concepts.
Full power Tezzeret > The Mindsculptor > God Xenagos > Elspeth > Chandra > Ajani > Koth > Kiora > Ral.
>PWs with combat-ready abilities.
Sarkhan > Gideon > Garruk > Vraska > Tibalt > Nissa
>PWs with powers that are strategically useful in combat.
Venser > Jace > Tezzeret > Ashiok
>The others.
Tamiyo, Dack, Domri, Narset, normal Xenagos.
Isn't Jace the Mindsculptor? You have him there twice.
Kiora got wrecked by Thassa. I'm not sure if that says more about Theros god power, or about her standing as a PW. I'd say the former, personally.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Bolas top
Ugin vs Karn for 2nd place
Liliana with Veil most likely next
Sorin
The rest is a bit wobbly...
Nahiri (if she's still alive) is somewhere high up, but below Lili and Sorin (although how far below is a point of discussion)
Ashiok... possibly up there, if only by virtue of their potential age
Cursed Garruk is powerful, but still mostly brute force, so unlikely to be near top 5
The other Origins planeswalkers (Gideon, Jace, Chandra and Nissa) are far too average to be called powerful, well, maybe compared to the four Jace may be most powerful, or rather, dangerous thanks to his telepathy
Same deal with Ajani and Kiora, rather average (and Kiora's loss to Thassa just proves the point that she has much to learn)
The rest are not quite worth discussing at present
Umm what are you talking about? His memories where only erased (majorly) once, after his duel with Alhammarret.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
If you judge a person's intelligence by their upbringing, then you kind of disqualified yourself.
Also, wit =/= knowledge. Additionally, education is such a biased term. Garruk knows a LOT of things you don't, just that he didn't learn it in books. Education usually ecompasses only a narrow set of knowledge, useful mostly within the boundaries of civilization.
First you say strength cannot be measured on a linear scale and then you do the exact same thing with intelligence and knowledge. This is the beauty of people claiming they're smarter than others, it usually backfires.