but the aforementioned topic didn't really resolve my confusion. If Planeswalkers are more powerful than Gods (specifically, the ones from Theros) then why did Xenagos want to become a God if that would "decrease" his power level? I'm talking about the Vorthos/Flavor point of view BTW.
Xenagos did what he did because he wanted to prove a point. He had, prior to his ascension, walked to different planes and from my understanding became totally disillusioned with life and the point of it all. His despair twisted and turned into a manic desire to destroy the comfortable peaceful illusions of everyone on Theros. To quote the bard, he wanted to watch the world burn.
Seeing as it was consistently stated that he was still a 'walker while being a god, he combined the power of being a PW while also having the power over normal denizens by being the highest ranking role in Theros. I'd say he would have gained more because he has the same strength of a planeswalker while also getting actual power over the citizens of Theros.
He also wanted to become a God as a sort of poke in the eye to the Gods of Theros, to show them how, despite all the blustering and bluffing they do, they're not as important or all-powerful as their worshipers think they are.
Since birth Xenagos has been possessed of a contrary and stubborn nature, and as an adult that obstinacy has become as hard and unyielding as steel. He's not after power - he just wants to go for the grand effect and shock everyone.
Okay that makes sense, he just wanted to demonstrate to everyone just how limited the Gods power was...and I was also thinking he may had done b/c he wanted influence over the plane as Golblin pointed out. Thanks! Appreciate the quick response!
Planeswalkers are more powerful than gods in the sense that they can travel more, learn more spells and thus exploit the weaknesses of other specific characters (such as gods). Gods would still have an easier life, and in battle they would be able to cast more powerful spells with less effort than a non-Bolas planeswalker.
Plus, as said before, Xenagos objective was spitting in the face of the gods, not growing more powerful. He is Green/Red, not Black. And he still had his spark, so he could have probably Planeswalked away if he ever got bored.
It's also an important note for the sake of the story of Theros that the mortals (and some Gods) be reminded that the gods haven't always been eternal, nor are they necessarily as immortal as they claim. It's just been so long for many of them that they've forgotten a time "before Heliod and friends".
The only God who claims to remember the time "before" is Kruphix, but he doesn't disclose that information except for his oracle(s?).
Xenagos is still an antagonist: he murdered, caused a lot of pain, and is ultimately a "bad guy". However, his intentions and actions weren't out of pure malice, more as a "**** you" to the gods that he's come to realize aren't the supreme rulers like they claim.
I still don't know where people get that planeswalkers are stronger than gods because most of them aren't. I'll give Bolas and Karn that and most likely Sorin as well but the rest are much weaker. Sure, they have the potential to be stronger but most of them don't have the drive or lifespan to achieve that power, especially after the Mending.
Xenagos might have become a "god" but he needed a constant flow of mana in order to maintain the form. Even then he wasn't able to become fully immortal which is how Elspeth downed him in the first place. The amount of power required to do what a god can is immense and unsustainable for long periods of time. Plus, if planeswalkers were truly stronger, Nyx should be a revolving door. You should be able to routinely kill yourself for fun on Theros and walk out of the Underworld like it was nothing. But you can't.
But yeah, Xenagos did that because he had some angst he needed to resolve.
Also, the gods are quite immortal if Medomai is correct. They apparently have been able to provide "devotion" for each other for a while now.
Elspeth was able to kill Xenagos because that's what the Godsend does. It kills things. With immense prejudice. It's nothing to do with Xenagos not having become full immortal, it's all about the sword. Why do you think Heliod wanted Ellie dead before he made her his Champion? He was afraid of the sword. It's why he killed her after she did what he wanted.
Despite what the art of Deicide depicts, the story suggested otherwise.
Elspeth was getting her ass handed to her. Only when Xenagos tried to grab the Godsend did Elspeth make her first real attack. She desperately threw the Godsend which miraculously hit the area around Xenagos's heart (which was still fleshy because Xenagos was having trouble becoming 100% nyx), struck the arrowhead from Nylea stuck in his chest from before, and caused the arrowhead to explode like a grenade which pretty much killed him.
Heliod could have also wanted the Godsend back because you know... it was his (techinally it belongs to Purphoros but w/e). That and if Purphoros got that thing back, Heliod could have been in some serious trouble.
I personally would have preferred the story if, early on, some blind crone offered a prophecy that Elspeth would die at the hands of a bestial planeswalker while she is on Theros. Elspeth spends the whole block nervous (is it Xenagos? Oh god, might it be my bro Ajani?), but ends up going to kill Xenagos because it's the right thing to do. Elspeth wins, Heliod high fives her and asks for the sword back, and she goes to celebrate at a bar, glad to have averted the prophecy.
All of a sudden Garruk planeswalks in and cuts her down.
Heliod could have also wanted the Godsend back because you know... it was his (techinally it belongs to Purphoros but w/e). That and if Purphoros got that thing back, Heliod could have been in some serious trouble.
Pft, it wasn't his. He was TERRIFIED of what it could do because of what Purphoros did with it the first time.
The thing is, the planeswalkers might not be stronger than the gods, but they are one thing the gods have never been able to deal with. They can IGNORE them. They can shrug off magic the gods throw at them, and that makes them lose their ***** because it simply cannot be done in their heads. Anything resistant to their abilities is just beyond what they can deal with. It's literally impossible because the gods were dreamt as being undefiable. That's the problem with beings defined by the belief in them, whatever is believed about them... basically becomes true to them.
...that didn't make sense before and it doesn't make sense now. Your point revolves around Heliod as your prime example and he is arrogance personified.
Heliod is still the only god to overreact to that nonsense (a protection spell of all things) and he still ended up illing Elspeth anyways. Ajani and Elspeth deflected Thassa's attack but if she wasn't the level-headed goddess she is, Ajani and/or Elspeth could have had a bident sticking through his/her chest when she practically teleported right next to them immediately afterwards. I dunno, the gods seem like they're able to deal with thngs they've never seen before (which, according to the story, seems to be exclusively protection spells, go figure). Granted, the first one is Heliod being a scumbag.
Can the gods not adapt like planeswalkers can? Can they not reason and figure out why something didn't work? I certainly didn't read anything in the material that they can't. They were created by belief but they are definitely not bound by it.
Can the gods not adapt like planeswalkers can? Can they not reason and figure out why something didn't work? I certainly didn't read anything in the material that they can't. They were created by belief but they are definitely not bound by it.
Honestly, I don't think they can because of the way they were formed. They're not really living beings, but belief incarnate, and given that, they're subject to the whims and change of beliefs of the beings that created them.
Now, this probably IS at least partly what I'm bringing to it given the tropes and archetypes present in other materials similar to what magic built.
Wizards recently has posted a short story where Ajani, to avenge Elspeth, tries to destabilized the belief structures of the polis, thereby weakening the source of the Gods' powers and identities. So with some planning, and shall we say, education of the masses, Ajani could weaken the gods enough to defeat them.
So as far as raw power goes, the gods are probably more powerful than most planes walkers, barring the more powerful (Karn, Bolas, Sorin, etc.). But they have a glaring limitation that planes walkers can exploit.
PWs may know spells to defy the gods, but Elspeth was still in pain when Heliod was burning her with his rays, and Thassa could still just as easily drown her if she wanted. Thassa appeared alongside Ajani and Elspeth in an unexpected split second. One simple stab and one of them could have been down before they knew it. Just because the gods start out underestimating PWs doesn't make them stronger or even comparable IMO.
Since birth Xenagos has been possessed of a contrary and stubborn nature, and as an adult that obstinacy has become as hard and unyielding as steel. He's not after power - he just wants to go for the grand effect and shock everyone.
Plus, as said before, Xenagos objective was spitting in the face of the gods, not growing more powerful. He is Green/Red, not Black. And he still had his spark, so he could have probably Planeswalked away if he ever got bored.
The only God who claims to remember the time "before" is Kruphix, but he doesn't disclose that information except for his oracle(s?).
Xenagos is still an antagonist: he murdered, caused a lot of pain, and is ultimately a "bad guy". However, his intentions and actions weren't out of pure malice, more as a "**** you" to the gods that he's come to realize aren't the supreme rulers like they claim.
Xenagos might have become a "god" but he needed a constant flow of mana in order to maintain the form. Even then he wasn't able to become fully immortal which is how Elspeth downed him in the first place. The amount of power required to do what a god can is immense and unsustainable for long periods of time. Plus, if planeswalkers were truly stronger, Nyx should be a revolving door. You should be able to routinely kill yourself for fun on Theros and walk out of the Underworld like it was nothing. But you can't.
But yeah, Xenagos did that because he had some angst he needed to resolve.
Also, the gods are quite immortal if Medomai is correct. They apparently have been able to provide "devotion" for each other for a while now.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
When asking for if something was stolen on Kamigawa:
Have some irony:
Heliod could have also wanted the Godsend back because you know... it was his (techinally it belongs to Purphoros but w/e). That and if Purphoros got that thing back, Heliod could have been in some serious trouble.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
All of a sudden Garruk planeswalks in and cuts her down.
The thing is, the planeswalkers might not be stronger than the gods, but they are one thing the gods have never been able to deal with. They can IGNORE them. They can shrug off magic the gods throw at them, and that makes them lose their ***** because it simply cannot be done in their heads. Anything resistant to their abilities is just beyond what they can deal with. It's literally impossible because the gods were dreamt as being undefiable. That's the problem with beings defined by the belief in them, whatever is believed about them... basically becomes true to them.
Heliod is still the only god to overreact to that nonsense (a protection spell of all things) and he still ended up illing Elspeth anyways. Ajani and Elspeth deflected Thassa's attack but if she wasn't the level-headed goddess she is, Ajani and/or Elspeth could have had a bident sticking through his/her chest when she practically teleported right next to them immediately afterwards. I dunno, the gods seem like they're able to deal with thngs they've never seen before (which, according to the story, seems to be exclusively protection spells, go figure). Granted, the first one is Heliod being a scumbag.
Can the gods not adapt like planeswalkers can? Can they not reason and figure out why something didn't work? I certainly didn't read anything in the material that they can't. They were created by belief but they are definitely not bound by it.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
Honestly, I don't think they can because of the way they were formed. They're not really living beings, but belief incarnate, and given that, they're subject to the whims and change of beliefs of the beings that created them.
Now, this probably IS at least partly what I'm bringing to it given the tropes and archetypes present in other materials similar to what magic built.
So as far as raw power goes, the gods are probably more powerful than most planes walkers, barring the more powerful (Karn, Bolas, Sorin, etc.). But they have a glaring limitation that planes walkers can exploit.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||