is it some sort of primordial force or an empowered individual? I am leaning on thinking the latter as he/she/it looks vedalkin likeish. anyone have any thoughts on what it's role is suppose to be?
If I had to say, I would think it is some facet of Ravnica itself that has come together.
But I'll let you in on something, I am REALLY really bothered by the "Soul of" Cards because it says something about the Worldsoul of each of their respective planes. And I think they are entirely too narrowly shown.
One could argue that it is just one small little bit of the whole thing, but it's something that I don't think should have ever been on cards. I also am firmly of the opinion that blue is utterly the wrong color for Soul of Ravnica to start with. Should be white, under 2 reasons.
The first is that white is the color of cities and civilization, far more than blue. Government, hierarchy, order, all of those things, that's all white.
The second is that the Worldsoul, albeit in a retcon now, is what the Selesnyans worship. Should have been white.
hmm i have always seen ravnica as a very blue plane more so than any other plane that exists i confess a white soul would throw me off rather badly. i find it rather odd they decided to make it for 2015 though it doesn't seem to fit all that well to me wish it had some flavor text to put some perspective to why now.
I've been meaning to ask a similar, or at least related question for a while. I heard about the concept of a Worldsoul years ago, and was intrigued by what I heard at the time; a physical being that embodied or personified that plane. When I have tried to find more about this idea, it would lead me to information about Gaea on Dominara, but not much else. I guess my question is, Barinellos, could you expand on this or inform us on some more specifics as to what exactly a Worldsoul is? Does every plane have one? Looking at the Wiki page for Gaea, there are references to O-Kagachi of Kamagawa, and Yawgmoth. Could these figures be considered Worldsouls? That would be particularly interesting in Yawgmoth's case as he was once human, and not originally a resident of Phyrexia.
Additionally, to point back to the "Soul of" cycle, it did seem weird to me to see something that was meant to be representative of Ravnica as a whole, yet wasn't multicolored.
hmm i have always seen ravnica as a very blue plane more so than any other plane that exists i confess a white soul would throw me off rather badly. i find it rather odd they decided to make it for 2015 though it doesn't seem to fit all that well to me wish it had some flavor text to put some perspective to why now.
"A very Blue plane"? Like Barinellos said, civilisation and order is more of a White concept. Blue's about perfection and knowledge, things that aren't always synonimous with civilisation (case in point, 99% of Blue core set cards being about hermits or sea monsters). Other than Esper, I think the "most Blue" plane seen so far is probably New Phyrexia, since it's currently a planewide drive towards perfection and improvement.
I've always found Ravnica to be quite blue. Te whole civilization and city aspect is irrelevant because the entire plane is a city with the exception of a few parts. Blue is the color of progress and being able to "shape your destiny", which is what each guild is ultimately trying to do (sometimes in not so secret ways). The guild pact may be white, but the guilds themselves do what they do for the betterment of Ravnica as a whole, and allowing it to progress further.
Still though, doesn't mean I'm a fan of the whole thing.
hmm i have always seen ravnica as a very blue plane more so than any other plane that exists i confess a white soul would throw me off rather badly. i find it rather odd they decided to make it for 2015 though it doesn't seem to fit all that well to me wish it had some flavor text to put some perspective to why now.
"A very Blue plane"? Like Barinellos said, civilisation and order is more of a White concept. Blue's about perfection and knowledge, things that aren't always synonimous with civilisation (case in point, 99% of Blue core set cards being about hermits or sea monsters). Other than Esper, I think the "most Blue" plane seen so far is probably New Phyrexia, since it's currently a planewide drive towards perfection and improvement.
civilisation isn't a attribute it's just something that is nor would i consider ravnica very civilized in the first place. ravnica and the azorius's excessive attempts at law and governance strike me much more as an attempt for perfection than order. indeed many of the guilds regardless of color are seeking either perfection or knowledge in addition to or in place of their color's primary attributes.
to me no matter how much of a blue outlook they try and give New Phyrexia i can't help but feel the sheer selfishness inherent in their way of doing things makes black the dominate color.
I loathe this soul cycle honestly. I wish it had been a strong card from each characteristic race from each of those planes instead. Like a Triton from Theros for U or something, with Constellation. Or a Landfall Green card for Zendikar or something.
The guild pact may be white, but the guilds themselves do what they do for the betterment of Ravnica as a whole, and allowing it to progress further.
I think we can pretty definitively say that the guilds are NOT in it for the betterment of Ravnica. They are in it for the betterment of the guilds or else we wouldn't have had multiple near world scale wars set off because the guilds tried to grab a larger slice of power.
They are, without a doubt, not about progress or protection. They are about Authority.
The guild pact may be white, but the guilds themselves do what they do for the betterment of Ravnica as a whole, and allowing it to progress further.
I think we can pretty definitively say that the guilds are NOT in it for the betterment of Ravnica. They are in it for the betterment of the guilds or else we wouldn't have had multiple near world scale wars set off because the guilds tried to grab a larger slice of power.
They are, without a doubt, not about progress or protection. They are about Authority.
that is kind of like saying a selfish person isn't really selfish because their actions help other people. in such a case what they want to achieve is more important than what they actually achieve. you can say that they are going about it wrong and the end result is different, but in fact most of the guilds are seeking improvement more than authority. when they make a move they are making it with the idea that it will better ravnica as a whole to make that move only a few of the more chaotic guilds don't have this objective it just doesn't end up working that way because surprise the guilds don't agree on what improvement is.
when they make a move they are making it with the idea that it will better ravnica as a whole to make that move only a few of the more chaotic guilds don't have this objective it just doesn't end up working that way because surprise the guilds don't agree on what improvement is.
They are making moves to better their social status, not to improve Ravnica as a whole. There are.. 3-4 guilds that care more about improving Ravnica.
The Gruul, the nuSimic, the Selesnyans, and the Azorius.
In each of their eyes, their end goal is to improve Ravnica.
The Rakdos and the Izzet are both vanity projects of their Paruns. The Boros want to maintain a status quo. The Orzhov want power more plainly than anyone else. The Golgari... don't care at all about Ravnica. They care about the undercity and only the undercity, and the Dimir... apparently want to blow everything up.
There is a reason why none of the guilds were really willing to work together during the Maze, and hence we have Jace as guildpact.
It isn't progress that drives Ravnica. It's society and the social standings, hierarchy. Which is why we have groups like the Gateless springing up too.
Ravnica is more defined by it's warring guilds and political intrigue than the city-plane itself. It really depends on how you interpret what the "soul" of Ravnica is. I'd say political intrigue and deception is very much Blue, so I feel that's fitting. The guilds are constantly vying for power and control of Ravnica.
hurts my head to think that a)that's Mat'Selesnya, b)the "soul of Ravnica" is blue, or c)Ravnica has multiple souls.
If they had called it Spirit of Ravnica, or Avatar of Ravnica, or anything other than Soul, I think I wouldn't be this hung up on it. A world's soul has a very specific meaning in Magic, so you can't just go throwing that term around. I could totally see it being Avatar of the City, but then they wouldn't be beating you over the head with the heavy-handed "HEY GUIZ RAVNICA REF IN THE CORE SET!!!!" "flavor".
Meh. I just say to myself these have nothing to do with the worldsoul but are mere embodiments of a specific part of the plane that the denizens simply call "soul of ~".
Meh. I just say to myself these have nothing to do with the worldsoul but are mere embodiments of a specific part of the plane that the denizens simply call "soul of ~".
when they make a move they are making it with the idea that it will better ravnica as a whole to make that move only a few of the more chaotic guilds don't have this objective it just doesn't end up working that way because surprise the guilds don't agree on what improvement is.
They are making moves to better their social status, not to improve Ravnica as a whole. There are.. 3-4 guilds that care more about improving Ravnica.
The Gruul, the nuSimic, the Selesnyans, and the Azorius.
In each of their eyes, their end goal is to improve Ravnica.
The Rakdos and the Izzet are both vanity projects of their Paruns. The Boros want to maintain a status quo. The Orzhov want power more plainly than anyone else. The Golgari... don't care at all about Ravnica. They care about the undercity and only the undercity, and the Dimir... apparently want to blow everything up.
There is a reason why none of the guilds were really willing to work together during the Maze, and hence we have Jace as guildpact.
It isn't progress that drives Ravnica. It's society and the social standings, hierarchy. Which is why we have groups like the Gateless springing up too.
the izzet happen to think that improving their social standing is improving ravnica as a whole. they also hapen to think their parun is very good for ravnica as a whole does the fact they are almost certainy wrong mean the aren't attempting to improve ravnica?
i don't understand how the boros are protecting the status quo isn't their whole thing breaking the status quo to promote their own vision of perfection?
also disagree with the golgari not caring they just have a different vision than most about what improvement is how it can be reached.
rakdos dimir and maybe orzhov are the only ones that really don't care.
the izzet happen to think that improving their social standing is improving ravnica as a whole. they also hapen to think their parun is very good for ravnica as a whole does the fact they are almost certainy wrong mean the aren't attempting to improve ravnica?
Considering that Niv is chiefly interested in accumulating obscene amounts of gold and essentially swindling everyone else...
i don't understand how the boros are protecting the status quo isn't their whole thing breaking the status quo to promote their own vision of perfection?
No. They are interested in making sure crime does not happen and punishment is doled out, not in promoting anything. They want justice done, but that doesn't translate to social justice. The poor can stay poor rather than steal to try to better themselves. They are very much an institution that sees the world in stark black and white and progress causes trouble more than it doesn't.
also disagree with the golgari not caring they just have a different vision than most about what improvement is how it can be reached.
They've essentially set up their own little kingdom under the surface. They couldn't care less what happens above them.
Where did you ever get that notion from? I can seriously not remember a single instance of Niv focusing on material wealth over ingenuity, knowledge or creativity. Are you sure you're not mistaking him for one of the Orzhov characters?
I can agree that Niv himself does not care much about helping others, but nothing of what I've read so far has given the impression that he lusts more for gold than for knowledge. Sure, he's a dragon and likely appreciates being offered gold or other valuables as a means of barter, but nowhere have I seen that being presented as his primary motivation.
It goes aaaaaaaaall the way back to the original guildpact and the fact that he is the wealthiest being on the entirety of Ravnica.
In my opinion Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind being the wealthiest being on Ravnica, can be directly attributed to the fact that his guild is science and arcane knowledge based, and wealth is just a byproduct of endeavors in those fields. Abrupt Decay
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
But I'll let you in on something, I am REALLY really bothered by the "Soul of" Cards because it says something about the Worldsoul of each of their respective planes. And I think they are entirely too narrowly shown.
One could argue that it is just one small little bit of the whole thing, but it's something that I don't think should have ever been on cards. I also am firmly of the opinion that blue is utterly the wrong color for Soul of Ravnica to start with. Should be white, under 2 reasons.
The first is that white is the color of cities and civilization, far more than blue. Government, hierarchy, order, all of those things, that's all white.
The second is that the Worldsoul, albeit in a retcon now, is what the Selesnyans worship. Should have been white.
Additionally, to point back to the "Soul of" cycle, it did seem weird to me to see something that was meant to be representative of Ravnica as a whole, yet wasn't multicolored.
That being said, the worldsouls of artificial plane is probably whoever created it or otherwise keeps it together
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
"A very Blue plane"? Like Barinellos said, civilisation and order is more of a White concept. Blue's about perfection and knowledge, things that aren't always synonimous with civilisation (case in point, 99% of Blue core set cards being about hermits or sea monsters). Other than Esper, I think the "most Blue" plane seen so far is probably New Phyrexia, since it's currently a planewide drive towards perfection and improvement.
Still though, doesn't mean I'm a fan of the whole thing.
civilisation isn't a attribute it's just something that is nor would i consider ravnica very civilized in the first place. ravnica and the azorius's excessive attempts at law and governance strike me much more as an attempt for perfection than order. indeed many of the guilds regardless of color are seeking either perfection or knowledge in addition to or in place of their color's primary attributes.
to me no matter how much of a blue outlook they try and give New Phyrexia i can't help but feel the sheer selfishness inherent in their way of doing things makes black the dominate color.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I think we can pretty definitively say that the guilds are NOT in it for the betterment of Ravnica. They are in it for the betterment of the guilds or else we wouldn't have had multiple near world scale wars set off because the guilds tried to grab a larger slice of power.
They are, without a doubt, not about progress or protection. They are about Authority.
that is kind of like saying a selfish person isn't really selfish because their actions help other people. in such a case what they want to achieve is more important than what they actually achieve. you can say that they are going about it wrong and the end result is different, but in fact most of the guilds are seeking improvement more than authority. when they make a move they are making it with the idea that it will better ravnica as a whole to make that move only a few of the more chaotic guilds don't have this objective it just doesn't end up working that way because surprise the guilds don't agree on what improvement is.
They are making moves to better their social status, not to improve Ravnica as a whole. There are.. 3-4 guilds that care more about improving Ravnica.
The Gruul, the nuSimic, the Selesnyans, and the Azorius.
In each of their eyes, their end goal is to improve Ravnica.
The Rakdos and the Izzet are both vanity projects of their Paruns. The Boros want to maintain a status quo. The Orzhov want power more plainly than anyone else. The Golgari... don't care at all about Ravnica. They care about the undercity and only the undercity, and the Dimir... apparently want to blow everything up.
There is a reason why none of the guilds were really willing to work together during the Maze, and hence we have Jace as guildpact.
It isn't progress that drives Ravnica. It's society and the social standings, hierarchy. Which is why we have groups like the Gateless springing up too.
(Also known as Xenphire)
If they had called it Spirit of Ravnica, or Avatar of Ravnica, or anything other than Soul, I think I wouldn't be this hung up on it. A world's soul has a very specific meaning in Magic, so you can't just go throwing that term around. I could totally see it being Avatar of the City, but then they wouldn't be beating you over the head with the heavy-handed "HEY GUIZ RAVNICA REF IN THE CORE SET!!!!" "flavor".
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
Headcanon is a powerful thing.
Headcanon is a powerful thing.
the izzet happen to think that improving their social standing is improving ravnica as a whole. they also hapen to think their parun is very good for ravnica as a whole does the fact they are almost certainy wrong mean the aren't attempting to improve ravnica?
i don't understand how the boros are protecting the status quo isn't their whole thing breaking the status quo to promote their own vision of perfection?
also disagree with the golgari not caring they just have a different vision than most about what improvement is how it can be reached.
rakdos dimir and maybe orzhov are the only ones that really don't care.
No. They are interested in making sure crime does not happen and punishment is doled out, not in promoting anything. They want justice done, but that doesn't translate to social justice. The poor can stay poor rather than steal to try to better themselves. They are very much an institution that sees the world in stark black and white and progress causes trouble more than it doesn't.
They've essentially set up their own little kingdom under the surface. They couldn't care less what happens above them.
It goes aaaaaaaaall the way back to the original guildpact and the fact that he is the wealthiest being on the entirety of Ravnica.
The original art Lord of the Pit is Yawgmoth. Compare it to this official art of Yawgers: http://www.5colorcontrol.com/images/fanart/random/Yawgy.jpg