hi! i'm not sure if i can ask colour philosophy questions here?
"survival of the fittest" had always sounded extremely Black in philosophy to me -- you always look out for yourself; or only those who are most adapted "deserve" to continue their genes, etc. this, for example, sounds the opposite of White, where it's often thought that it's Simply Just for the weakest members of society to be protected and integrated.
(i asked this question on MaRo's blog, but it's hard to get clarification on some of the answers in that kind of forum).
any thoughts on this? is the idea of Survival of the Fittest more black than green? or do i misunderstand green?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
----------------------------
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul "no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Both Green and Black like social darwinism, but for completly different reasons. To Black, it's just a consequence of it's ambition and selfishness. To Green, it's because it reflects it's ideals of "the system": the strong survive, the weak die. It's not about the self, it's about exterminating flaws in the environment, it's to prommote growth.
Green sees the world in a very deterministic way, that everything has a purpose, that everything must fit a role and it is set by fate to fulfill it. Whereas Black, like Blue, sees the world as an open canvas to craft to your will. To Green, the weak are fated to die, are fated to be consumed by beings that were born stronger and thus have a higher hierarchy in the universe in it's mind; this is why racism is such a Green concept. Black, on the other hand, sees that people have the potential to grow strong, or don't. In Black's social darwinism, survival is completly arbitary, while in Green it is set in stone.
It's also a nice overlap between the two colours, one that sadly hasn't been explored in 2-colour factions so far. (Golgari guild and Pharika)
This is actually why I like Jund most of the five shards, philosophically. It was not just like Grixis, where the shard was black and blue and red just tagged along, it felt like black and green were a big part of Jund, seeing as the shard was centered around survival in a hostile environment filled with predators.
I just hope we see such a philosophy in a B/G combination. It just feels so organic.
Black isn't really survival of the fittest, it's survival of yourself regardless of whether you are fit. Black in a sense is a color of the weak subverting the strong using subversive means.
Black is survival of itself, at all cost. It honestly doesn't care about natural orders: if everything is weaker than it, naturally or unnaturally, that's just fine.
Green focuses on an uninterrupted natural order.
Say you come across a lion eating a goat:
Green thinks: "That's how things are."
Black thinks: "Can I use this lion for something?" ( Or alternately, "Kill the lion before it kills me." )
It's also a nice overlap between the two colours, one that sadly hasn't been explored in 2-colour factions so far. (Golgari guild and Pharika)
This is actually why I like Jund most of the five shards, philosophically. It was not just like Grixis, where the shard was black and blue and red just tagged along, it felt like black and green were a big part of Jund, seeing as the shard was centered around survival in a hostile environment filled with predators.
I just hope we see such a philosophy in a B/G combination. It just feels so organic.
We kind of had a bit of social darwinism with Lorwyn elves, base don their ideals of beauty and perfection. The Golgari also have some social darwinistic leanings, but thankfully they're usually depicted as reasonable and/or helping the poor and disenfranchised.
I really like to see it in other Green combinations, such as the original Simic.
Black will do everything in its power to manipulate nature toward a preferred outcome that serves its best interests. Green will let nature take its course, not seeking to manipilate it toward a selfish end.
I think in a general way "survival of the fittest" is a common ground between green and black. There's a reason why those are the two colors that normally have most of the deadliest natural predators.
Black doesn't care about survival of the fittest, black only cares about its own survival. Survival of the fittest is very green.
Survival of the fittest and survival of yourself is the same thing. In nature every being is made to seek it's own survival above all else (black thing) and when everyone with this in mind interacts, the survival of the fittest happens. Anyone caring for it's own survival is caring for the survival of the fittest.
When the phrase was commonly used in biology, survival of the fittest basically meant "we have observed that those that are most adapted to an environment will prosper" while in human civilization it's often taken as a moral instruction, to mean "those that are most powerful deserve to rule".
The difference is between fitness as "strength" and as "fit to a gap".
Modern biologists tend to not use the phrase, in part because of this confusion.
The difference in philosophies between green and black would mean that green lets things fall where they may and creatures adapt if they can, while black is constantly trying to become the strongest, or at least to avoid being weak.
The GB elves are actually a pretty good crossover of both meanings, as has been mentioned before.
To me, the Simic philosophy of "we will make new organisms which are capable of surviving Ravnica" also sounds like an active interpretation of the biological definition.
Note that the biological definition works more with societies or species than individuals, and that as a result white's philosophy of "group up and build civilization" fits well, as you would hope from an allied color.
This is veering into baseless speculation, but I kind of want to see a race of GW insect-people (The Kropotkin? :D) for this reason.
To me, the Simic philosophy of "we will make new organisms which are capable of surviving Ravnica" also sounds like an active interpretation of the biological definition.
The original Simic actually sent plagues to ravage the citizens to see if the "stronger" would survive, and only offered cures to those that could pay for them. Very much within the "strength focused" interpretation.
I'm not sure Green/White can be socially darwinistic. Green/White is all about community and offering a save space for everyone, at the expense of individuality; they are antithetical to progress, and thus adaptation, they are definitely antithetical to only letting the strong survive, and either process is too individualistic.
Black doesn't really believe in survival of the fittest, it just wants to win. Black believes that those it judges to be "fit" deserve to survive.
Green believes that those who happen to survive are fit. Green would throw a thousand people in a pit in order to find out how is the strongest. Heck, Green might throw itself in along with them.
It should be noted, that if it is said that there's an overlap between two colours, it does not mean they share that aspect 100%. If colours agreed on a thing completely they'd stop being different colours, because their core philosophy determines how and why they apply different things. White and blue for instance both love planning, but for white it is because it craves structure and order. Blue on the other hand wants to know everything before it finally acts. Same thing goes for black and green. They both live by the creed of "the strongest survive", but for different motivations.
Additionally, I don't think the Lorwyn elves are a very good example of a black-green overlap. They hunt other beings based on an artificial selection factor. They do not just let the world go its pace and let the strong/beautiful emerge, they actively go out and enforce their own made-up rule. In a sense they actually share some aspects with white's philosophy.
It should be noted, that if it is said that there's an overlap between two colours, it does not mean they share that aspect 100%. If colours agreed on a thing completely they'd stop being different colours, because their core philosophy determines how and why they apply different things. White and blue for instance both love planning, but for white it is because it craves structure and order. Blue on the other hand wants to know everything before it finally acts. Same thing goes for black and green. They both live by the creed of "the strongest survive", but for different motivations.
Additionally, I don't think the Lorwyn elves are a very good example of a black-green overlap. They hunt other beings based on an artificial selection factor. They do not just let the world go its pace and let the strong/beautiful emerge, they actively go out and enforce their own made-up rule. In a sense they actually share some aspects with white's philosophy.
Well, they are Green because they value beauty and aesthetics greatly - a Red/Green trait according to Maro - but yes, I honestly could see them as White aligned, though I would just preffer them to be mono-Green.
The original Simic actually sent plagues to ravage the citizens to see if the "stronger" would survive, and only offered cures to those that could pay for them. Very much within the "strength focused" interpretation.
Ah! I started playing after the first Ravnica block, so I only really know about the new Simic.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
It should be noted, that if it is said that there's an overlap between two colours, it does not mean they share that aspect 100%. If colours agreed on a thing completely they'd stop being different colours, because their core philosophy determines how and why they apply different things. White and blue for instance both love planning, but for white it is because it craves structure and order. Blue on the other hand wants to know everything before it finally acts. Same thing goes for black and green. They both live by the creed of "the strongest survive", but for different motivations.
Additionally, I don't think the Lorwyn elves are a very good example of a black-green overlap. They hunt other beings based on an artificial selection factor. They do not just let the world go its pace and let the strong/beautiful emerge, they actively go out and enforce their own made-up rule. In a sense they actually share some aspects with white's philosophy.
Well, they are Green because they value beauty and aesthetics greatly - a Red/Green trait according to Maro - but yes, I honestly could see them as White aligned, though I would just preffer them to be mono-Green.
Oh, I do agree they are pretty much green, especially since beauty is a hereditary trait, but the means by which they enforce their "survival of the fittest/most beautiful" seems rather white to me. It almost feels as if creative made them partly black, because they were villains in the otherwise idyllic Lorwyn.
It should be noted, that if it is said that there's an overlap between two colours, it does not mean they share that aspect 100%. If colours agreed on a thing completely they'd stop being different colours, because their core philosophy determines how and why they apply different things. White and blue for instance both love planning, but for white it is because it craves structure and order. Blue on the other hand wants to know everything before it finally acts. Same thing goes for black and green. They both live by the creed of "the strongest survive", but for different motivations.
Additionally, I don't think the Lorwyn elves are a very good example of a black-green overlap. They hunt other beings based on an artificial selection factor. They do not just let the world go its pace and let the strong/beautiful emerge, they actively go out and enforce their own made-up rule. In a sense they actually share some aspects with white's philosophy.
Well, they are Green because they value beauty and aesthetics greatly - a Red/Green trait according to Maro - but yes, I honestly could see them as White aligned, though I would just preffer them to be mono-Green.
Oh, I do agree they are pretty much green, especially since beauty is a hereditary trait, but the means by which they enforce their "survival of the fittest/most beautiful" seems rather white to me. It almost feels as if creative made them partly black, because they were villains in the otherwise idyllic Lorwyn.
Indeed, other than their backstabbing tendencies, their Black seems a bit forced. I actually made an argument for them to be Blue/Green (since they have a somewhat Simic-ish way of shaping nature, such as crafting desirable trees), but I can see the White.
In retrospect, if they were made Black just to justify being evil, it would be hilarious, given that Gaddock Teeg ended up as the non-elf antagonist in the novel.
They're black because they're vain and self centered above all else, they believe that being beautiful makes them the best. No other color is going to kill people off because they consider ugliness an assault upon their senses. White would forcibly make other creatures "beautiful" like the Selesnya do.
Not necessarily. White is perfectly capapable of genocide. The thing with the lorwyn elves is that not every elf believed they were the most beautiful person him/herself. They actually had a set of rules and standards which most elves aobeyed without second thought. That is pretty white.
In my opinion the black part of the elves stems from the fact that some of them abused the system for personal gain, such as scarring rivals or enhancing themselves with magic, but their core philosophy comes across as rather green-white.
Not necessarily. White is perfectly capapable of genocide. The thing with the lorwyn elves is that not every elf believed they were the most beautiful person him/herself. They actually had a set of rules and standards which most elves aobeyed without second thought. That is pretty white.
We even have a White "genocidal" card in Shadowmoor, Mass Calcify, which basically kills creatures for the "sin" of not adhering to an inherent trait (i.e. being White).
Not necessarily. White is perfectly capapable of genocide. The thing with the lorwyn elves is that not every elf believed they were the most beautiful person him/herself. They actually had a set of rules and standards which most elves aobeyed without second thought. That is pretty white.
A group can't be defined by the extreme individualism part of black but the group can be radically exclusionary, I think that's what they're going for.
I must say that I also had trouble seeing why a beast killing a man is different that a man killing a man but then I read Mark Rosenwaters articles on the color pie which by the way everyone should read who is interested in it.
Here are the quotes that show what the difference between greens and blacks way of thinking is which is quite big since they are enemy colors after all:
"In black, green sees a selfish, selfish color. Green understands the importance of the cycle of life. As such it respects the role of death. Black, on the other hand, uses death unnaturally as a tool for its own means. If green is to protect nature, it must stop black before it kills all living things for its own twisted agenda."
"In green, black sees a color incapable of taking the steps necessary to get the job done. Like white, green puts far too much value in qualities that are meaningless. Green’s greatest weakness is its blind faith in the value of life. Sure, life is useful (a lot of powerful spells do require a sacrifice after all), but green takes it way, way too far."
Mind you, Maro also goes to lengths to describe Green as fatalistic and accepting of fate, and Black as having ambition and self-advancement as a key part of it's portfolio, so it's a bit jarring how he doesn't emphasise that dichotomy.
Not necessarily. White is perfectly capapable of genocide. The thing with the lorwyn elves is that not every elf believed they were the most beautiful person him/herself. They actually had a set of rules and standards which most elves aobeyed without second thought. That is pretty white.
In my opinion the black part of the elves stems from the fact that some of them abused the system for personal gain, such as scarring rivals or enhancing themselves with magic, but their core philosophy comes across as rather green-white.
White is not about obeying any rule mindlessly because society demands so. White is rule-imposing but it won't accept any random rule. It only accept rules that it sees inside morality. White has a very specific morality and it doesn't including hunting ugly people.
Also, Lorywn elves acted based on culture, not on a rules estate. There wasn't a constitution saying elves should hunt the ugly. No elf were representing a law or a sovereign in heir hunt. It was they culture to do that and individual will.
Lorywn elves were black because they were vain and cruel. They wanted to shape the world in their image, but they didn't do it for moral reasons. They did because they are simply villainous and narcissistic.
"survival of the fittest" had always sounded extremely Black in philosophy to me -- you always look out for yourself; or only those who are most adapted "deserve" to continue their genes, etc. this, for example, sounds the opposite of White, where it's often thought that it's Simply Just for the weakest members of society to be protected and integrated.
(i asked this question on MaRo's blog, but it's hard to get clarification on some of the answers in that kind of forum).
any thoughts on this? is the idea of Survival of the Fittest more black than green? or do i misunderstand green?
Goblins have poor impulse control. Don't click this link!!
some of my favourite flavour text:
Wayward Soul
"no home no heart no hope"
—Stronghold graffito
Raging Goblin
He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Green sees the world in a very deterministic way, that everything has a purpose, that everything must fit a role and it is set by fate to fulfill it. Whereas Black, like Blue, sees the world as an open canvas to craft to your will. To Green, the weak are fated to die, are fated to be consumed by beings that were born stronger and thus have a higher hierarchy in the universe in it's mind; this is why racism is such a Green concept. Black, on the other hand, sees that people have the potential to grow strong, or don't. In Black's social darwinism, survival is completly arbitary, while in Green it is set in stone.
This is actually why I like Jund most of the five shards, philosophically. It was not just like Grixis, where the shard was black and blue and red just tagged along, it felt like black and green were a big part of Jund, seeing as the shard was centered around survival in a hostile environment filled with predators.
I just hope we see such a philosophy in a B/G combination. It just feels so organic.
Just thought I'd offer my interpretation.
Black is survival of itself, at all cost. It honestly doesn't care about natural orders: if everything is weaker than it, naturally or unnaturally, that's just fine.
Green focuses on an uninterrupted natural order.
Say you come across a lion eating a goat:
Green thinks: "That's how things are."
Black thinks: "Can I use this lion for something?" ( Or alternately, "Kill the lion before it kills me." )
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
We kind of had a bit of social darwinism with Lorwyn elves, base don their ideals of beauty and perfection. The Golgari also have some social darwinistic leanings, but thankfully they're usually depicted as reasonable and/or helping the poor and disenfranchised.
I really like to see it in other Green combinations, such as the original Simic.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Survival of the fittest and survival of yourself is the same thing. In nature every being is made to seek it's own survival above all else (black thing) and when everyone with this in mind interacts, the survival of the fittest happens. Anyone caring for it's own survival is caring for the survival of the fittest.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
The difference is between fitness as "strength" and as "fit to a gap".
Modern biologists tend to not use the phrase, in part because of this confusion.
The difference in philosophies between green and black would mean that green lets things fall where they may and creatures adapt if they can, while black is constantly trying to become the strongest, or at least to avoid being weak.
The GB elves are actually a pretty good crossover of both meanings, as has been mentioned before.
To me, the Simic philosophy of "we will make new organisms which are capable of surviving Ravnica" also sounds like an active interpretation of the biological definition.
Note that the biological definition works more with societies or species than individuals, and that as a result white's philosophy of "group up and build civilization" fits well, as you would hope from an allied color.
This is veering into baseless speculation, but I kind of want to see a race of GW insect-people (The Kropotkin? :D) for this reason.
Art is life itself.
The original Simic actually sent plagues to ravage the citizens to see if the "stronger" would survive, and only offered cures to those that could pay for them. Very much within the "strength focused" interpretation.
I'm not sure Green/White can be socially darwinistic. Green/White is all about community and offering a save space for everyone, at the expense of individuality; they are antithetical to progress, and thus adaptation, they are definitely antithetical to only letting the strong survive, and either process is too individualistic.
Green believes that those who happen to survive are fit. Green would throw a thousand people in a pit in order to find out how is the strongest. Heck, Green might throw itself in along with them.
Additionally, I don't think the Lorwyn elves are a very good example of a black-green overlap. They hunt other beings based on an artificial selection factor. They do not just let the world go its pace and let the strong/beautiful emerge, they actively go out and enforce their own made-up rule. In a sense they actually share some aspects with white's philosophy.
Well, they are Green because they value beauty and aesthetics greatly - a Red/Green trait according to Maro - but yes, I honestly could see them as White aligned, though I would just preffer them to be mono-Green.
Art is life itself.
Oh, I do agree they are pretty much green, especially since beauty is a hereditary trait, but the means by which they enforce their "survival of the fittest/most beautiful" seems rather white to me. It almost feels as if creative made them partly black, because they were villains in the otherwise idyllic Lorwyn.
Indeed, other than their backstabbing tendencies, their Black seems a bit forced. I actually made an argument for them to be Blue/Green (since they have a somewhat Simic-ish way of shaping nature, such as crafting desirable trees), but I can see the White.
In retrospect, if they were made Black just to justify being evil, it would be hilarious, given that Gaddock Teeg ended up as the non-elf antagonist in the novel.
In my opinion the black part of the elves stems from the fact that some of them abused the system for personal gain, such as scarring rivals or enhancing themselves with magic, but their core philosophy comes across as rather green-white.
Red would, without a second thought.
We even have a White "genocidal" card in Shadowmoor, Mass Calcify, which basically kills creatures for the "sin" of not adhering to an inherent trait (i.e. being White).
A group can't be defined by the extreme individualism part of black but the group can be radically exclusionary, I think that's what they're going for.
Here are the quotes that show what the difference between greens and blacks way of thinking is which is quite big since they are enemy colors after all:
"In black, green sees a selfish, selfish color. Green understands the importance of the cycle of life. As such it respects the role of death. Black, on the other hand, uses death unnaturally as a tool for its own means. If green is to protect nature, it must stop black before it kills all living things for its own twisted agenda."
"In green, black sees a color incapable of taking the steps necessary to get the job done. Like white, green puts far too much value in qualities that are meaningless. Green’s greatest weakness is its blind faith in the value of life. Sure, life is useful (a lot of powerful spells do require a sacrifice after all), but green takes it way, way too far."
White is not about obeying any rule mindlessly because society demands so. White is rule-imposing but it won't accept any random rule. It only accept rules that it sees inside morality. White has a very specific morality and it doesn't including hunting ugly people.
Also, Lorywn elves acted based on culture, not on a rules estate. There wasn't a constitution saying elves should hunt the ugly. No elf were representing a law or a sovereign in heir hunt. It was they culture to do that and individual will.
Lorywn elves were black because they were vain and cruel. They wanted to shape the world in their image, but they didn't do it for moral reasons. They did because they are simply villainous and narcissistic.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras