Phenax is terrified by the existence of other planes. Elspeth doesn't seem more powerful than the Gods, its just that their perspective is narrow.
This is rather amusing considering the bedfellows he's been keeping as of late.
He's also dead certain that he could wipe Ashiok out without even blinking, but Ashiok seems to be leading him on.
I don't know, it seems to me that Kiora is probably the dumbest blue character we've ever had, and certainly dumber than most walkers (Nissa excluded). Her brillant plan to deal with the Eldrazi is to summon a big kraken, and, as you mentionned, the first thing she did when she arrived on Theros was pretend she was Thassa, apparently not caring at all for the consequences. In fact the only thing blue about her character is her focus on the sea: she does not seek knowledge, has no patience, does not want to better herself from her natural condition... Even her card's abilities are more green than blue.
Being intelligent is not the defining trait of Blue. She definitely seeking knowledge, looking for a monster bigger than the Eldrazi isn't a particularly useful thing to be doing but the drive to explore is extremely Blue. Kiora's flaw seems to be a total lack of wisdom. She believes that every problem can be solved if you just get a bigger and better hammer. It's not a good plane. It's not a smart plan. It is a justifiably UG plan.
Yes, Blue =/= smart and everything else =/= dumb, those are traits that are very widespread. Blue is about self-improvement and the use of knowledge, which doesn't invariably translate into intelligent use of those things.
Couldn't a planewalker grab a god and planeswalk while holding them, killing the god in the blind eternities?
So long as the god is fully powered that would be very difficult. The book describes them as abstract beings, Kruphix is the horizon and Phenax is listening behind every corner. Even their physical manifestations are just shells filled with Nyx-stuff. They're arrogant enough to be tricked into it but there's a reason Elspeth needs the Godsend.
Sidenote: the conversation has drifted away from the topic here, partly (mostly?) through my fault. I don't know how to split a thread, and I don't think I can actually do that, but perhaps a moderator could? Thanks.
A little drift is fine here, so long as it's interesting.
The environment is not enough to justify a color, or Creative wouldn't have a problem with red dwarves, blue pirates, and green birds. Philosophically, Kiora is probably less blue than Ajani.
It's kind of a double standard though, in the same way we encounter animals being assigned colors. A lot of times, it IS based on their environment. Merfolk really aren't that much different. Most all of the merfolk do not value knowledge or many of the other blue values and have either run a mercantile empire, or much much more prevalently, have been militaristic sovereignities. The most famous of their numbers, the Vodalian were soldiers and conquerors, not sages or wizards.
As an aside too, Deceit is actually given as HALF of blue's value. Intellect and deceit, so it really doesn't need black's influence for deception to be prevalent in its core concepts.
Couldn't a planewalker grab a god and planeswalk while holding them, killing the god in the blind eternities?
So long as the god is fully powered that would be very difficult. The book describes them as abstract beings, Kruphix is the horizon and Phenax is listening behind every corner. Even their physical manifestations are just shells filled with Nyx-stuff. They're arrogant enough to be tricked into it but there's a reason Elspeth needs the Godsend.
I dunno, I doubt anything is arrogant enough to think that if an enemy grabs you, there's nothing bad that could possibly happen. In any case, planeswalking takes an absurd amount of concentration to trigger so trying to bring an unwilling captive seems impossible for most planeswalkers if that is even a thing.
And yeah, there's that whole "gods not being truly corporeal" thing that they have plus shapeshifting. You'd honestly be better off flailing the Godsend around than trying to touch a god.
Actually, before the mending when planeswalkers were powerful, god-like beings, Urza was able to take Xantcha, Barrin and all sorts of Tolarian Academy students with him to other planes.
Also Dyfed was able to take Yawgmoth to Phyrexia. But now that planeswalkers aren't god-like anymore I'm not sure.
On the subject of gods vs planeswalkers:
Because the mending made all planeswalkers really weak the only planeswalker, that I know of, with enough magical might to fight a god would be Nicol Bolas. (I say 'fight' because even though Elspeth can take on Xenagos she needed the aid of Kruphix to do it and Bolas could probably solo most gods) Because of the card 'Deicide' it has been shown that gods can be killed. Because of the recent story involving Ashiok trying to create a god it has been shown that planeswalkers can affect the realm of Nyx and even, almost, create gods themselves.
I imagine a being like Bolas, who is 25,000 years old and powerful beyond measure, could find an easy way to kill a god
Also, on the blue and intelligence thing: Blue's thing is knowledge. Knowledge without intelligence is a bit like a melee weapon without the strength to swing it: useless. Of course other colors can be intelligent, and use that intelligence well, but blue being un-intelligent is like green being weak and sickly, or black being altruistic: it stops them from accomplishing their main goal.
Having information availiable to you doesn't necessarily mean you will apply it in the most efficient manner. Sure, it will be counterproductive to not make a conscious effort to apply it, but it happens. (And for the reccord, Green can very easily be weak and thrive, and Black can use altruism to it's advantages; neither prevents successful survival or gaining power, respectively).
A good example of a Blue "stupid" character is the Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz, who sees a problem (i.e. perceiving the absence of a brain) and tries to fix it, without considering the numerous reasons as to why it's a moronic quest. Or, closer to home, Lisa Simpson on later seasons.
Speaking of information, I thought it was established that while planeswalkers are only special in that they can, well, planeswalk, the fact that they do gives them access to a greater range of knowledge and spells. I don't think it's possible to say definitively that planeswalkers are more or less powerful than anything - but they do seem to have the greatest range of potential, by far.
Speaking of information, I thought it was established that while planeswalkers are only special in that they can, well, planeswalk, the fact that they do gives them access to a greater range of knowledge and spells. I don't think it's possible to say definitively that planeswalkers are more or less powerful than anything - but they do seem to have the greatest range of potential, by far.
All the walkers who get cards are ones that take advantage planeswalker to learn wider variety of magics and a develop a broader power base than most mages do and thus, in practice, are quite powerful. Heliod interrogates Daxos about the ability to become indestructible where Elspeth had used against him because he doesn't understand what happened. Presumably she cast something like Indestructibility on herself, a spell which no mage from Theros would ever cast (probably incidentally, the only ways to become indestructible in Theros Block are a moment of Mortal's Resolve and Ajani's Presence which isn't magic native to Theros)
Also, on the blue and intelligence thing: Blue's thing is knowledge. Knowledge without intelligence is a bit like a melee weapon without the strength to swing it: useless. Of course other colors can be intelligent, and use that intelligence well, but blue being un-intelligent is like green being weak and sickly, or black being altruistic: it stops them from accomplishing their main goal.
I'd say a Blue character being dumb is more like a Green character being small or a Black character being nice. It's a reminder that "smart", "large", and "cruel" are common characteristics of those colors, not defining ones.
If Kiora were from Ravnica she would support the Simic philosophy of Upwelling, which involves things like raising up the greatest monsters from the deep.
The environment is not enough to justify a color, or Creative wouldn't have a problem with red dwarves, blue pirates, and green birds. Philosophically, Kiora is probably less blue than Ajani.
A bird's environment is the air, Blue. Dwarves weren't removed for being red as far as a I know.
Either way, magic associated with the sea is extremely Blue in Magic, there's no getting around that. A monogreen walker isn't going to summon leviathans.
If Kiora were from Ravnica she would support the Simic philosophy of Upwelling, which involves things like raising up the greatest monsters from the deep.
Actually, in that you are explicitly wrong. Brady Dommermuth refuted the claims that Kiora shared any philosophy with the Simic back when that speculation was rampant last year.
If Kiora were from Ravnica she would support the Simic philosophy of Upwelling, which involves things like raising up the greatest monsters from the deep.
Actually, in that you are explicitly wrong. Brady Dommermuth refuted the claims that Kiora shared any philosophy with the Simic back when that speculation was rampant last year.
He confirmed that Kiora was not part of the Simic guild and her goals don't really line up with the Simic goals. My point is mainly that "summon giant sea monsters for the hell of it" is a known UG thing, as indicated by the Upwelling philosophy.
The Upwelling is basically Simic's more progressive, "altruistic" ideology coin, as opposed to the Holdfast, the more isolationist, conservative part of their philosophy, basically their drive to improve upon the world.
Kiora's modus operandi is "summon giant fish to smash enemy into potato juice". That doesn't sound very progressive or interested in the welfare of others to me.
Uh... I must have brainfarted re: deceit. I guess Phenax and the Dimir had me confused.
re: Merfolks, well you cannot really hold the Vodalian against them, because they date from the time they were still doing red dwarves because they live in mountains. Since then, most blocks have used Vedalkens (Mirrodin 1 and 2, Ravnica 1 and 2, Alara). Although you do have a point about the merrows of Lorwyn (traders, which I guess could be stretched to be blue but is more white/black) and the merfolks of Zendikar who appear to be quite militaristic given the number of soldiers.
The Vodalians were used as late as Invasion and the Saprazzans of Mercadia were mercantile as well.
The Rathi merfolk are kind of an all over exception.
As to the Vedalken, they created them to replace merfolk not because they better exemplify the blue ideals, though they do, but because there were worlds which they could not have used merfolk at the time. Since the return of our finny friends, not much has changed from how they were previously construed by and large.
The merfolks of RtR block, however, definitely fit blue's ideology (which is ironic given none of the three Merfolks we have are mono-blue), and the tritons on Theros... Well, we can't really tell, because they don't seem to really have an organised society, or any thing relevant about them besides "they like Thassa". The flavor text on Sigiled Starfish is kind of odd (or predictable, if we follow your reasoning) though as it implies that tritons don't really care for knowledge.
There's clearly a search for glory and favor rather than knowledge in the Triton society, but there really isn't a lot to take away from them.
The merfolk of RtR though, should be taken as an exception, for several reasons, chiefly in how forced they were to begin with. Yet another thing RtR bungled.
The environment is not enough to justify a color, or Creative wouldn't have a problem with red dwarves, blue pirates, and green birds. Philosophically, Kiora is probably less blue than Ajani.
It's kind of a double standard though, in the same way we encounter animals being assigned colors. A lot of times, it IS based on their environment. Merfolk really aren't that much different. Most all of the merfolk do not value knowledge or many of the other blue values and have either run a mercantile empire, or much much more prevalently, have been militaristic sovereignities. The most famous of their numbers, the Vodalian were soldiers and conquerors, not sages or wizards.
As an aside too, Deceit is actually given as HALF of blue's value. Intellect and deceit, so it really doesn't need black's influence for deception to be prevalent in its core concepts.
Uh... I must have brainfarted re: deceit. I guess Phenax and the Dimir had me confused.
re: Merfolks, well you cannot really hold the Vodalian against them, because they date from the time they were still doing red dwarves because they live in mountains. Since then, most blocks have used Vedalkens (Mirrodin 1 and 2, Ravnica 1 and 2, Alara). Although you do have a point about the merrows of Lorwyn (traders, which I guess could be stretched to be blue but is more white/black) and the merfolks of Zendikar who appear to be quite militaristic given the number of soldiers.
The merfolks of RtR block, however, definitely fit blue's ideology (which is ironic given none of the three Merfolks we have are mono-blue), and the tritons on Theros... Well, we can't really tell, because they don't seem to really have an organised society, or any thing relevant about them besides "they like Thassa". The flavor text on Sigiled Starfish is kind of odd (or predictable, if we follow your reasoning) though as it implies that tritons don't really care for knowledge.
Note that I didn't play during Lorwyn so I hadn't realised merrows were traders until I checked 5 minutes ago.
A bird's environment is the air, Blue. Dwarves weren't removed for being red as far as a I know.
Either way, magic associated with the sea is extremely Blue in Magic, there's no getting around that. A monogreen walker isn't going to summon leviathans.
Dwarves are not done anymore. The latest was in Eventide, and before that you have to go back to Onslaught block (outside of one random 8th-edition reprint).
I don't say Kiora should have the same text and be a mono-green card. I'm just saying that the character is mono-green, and if you replace "9/9 blue Leviathan" with "9/9 green Wurm", you suddenly have an mono-green card.
You can't really ignore the core sets here. The core sets have the pivotal examples of what every color is about. While expert sets have it's own story and will do color pie exceptions to fit that story/design (ex: mono blue zombies in innistrand), core sets normally have cards that could appear in a larger number of planes - meaning those cards represents what each color have in a generic manner.
As you can see, merfolk appear in blue core sets a lot, along side sea monsters, phantom soldiers and other kind of stuff. Blue is not about knowledge, that's just a aspect of blue that some mother ship writers like to push.
About dwarven, the reason why WotC don't do it is because they have a vested interest in separating MTG and D&D franchises.
My guess is that under normal circumstances (not having a weapon forged by a god and blessed by another,) a planeswalker would never come close to being able to slay a god. They can still fight back, as seen when Heliod tried to fry Elspeth.
As for characters from other planes, it is hard to compare them. As far as Innistrad goes, Avacyn is pretty much a god. I don't think a single Therosian god could have turned the tide like Avacyn did after her return. I doubt your average planeswalker would be able to kill her, or even harm her. She is probably more "killable" than an actual god, though.
Also, planeswalkers are not that powerful. Excluding the planeswalking part, they are not above what a regular member of their race could achieve. It's more like they gain experience more quickly, but they still have the same level cap.
How is Avacyn more killable than a Theros or "actual" god? She is Indestructible just as they are. Avacyn is essentially the Archangel god of Innistrad IMO. I would argue Lilliana even fears her in a way. After her Angel killing spree to arrive at the Helvault, she sure wasn't too interested in sticking around after Avacyn's release. Granted she kills Griselbrand; but he's not nearly as powerful as Avacyn nor is he Indestructible. He needed a trick just to temporarily bind Avacyn.
I highly doubt a Planeswalker could defeat a god on Theros. Elspeth has Godsend after all and is probably allowed into Nyx by Kruphix - having depended on another god to even attempt the task of slaying Xenagos just as she needed Purphoros/Heliod to fashion the weapon to do it. On Theros, the gods are a major deal. Thassa controls the entire ocean and all its sea creatures. Kiora has access to exotic spells, but after summoning Trench Gorger, casting Whelming Wave and Planeswalking, she was exhausted. Thassa can cast the entire Siren Sea worth of 9/9 Leviathans just by appearing.
Thassa should have the upper hand. In her realm especially. I think Kiora should lose, and learn from her mistakes. She should consider that being defeated by an ocean god on Theros may have implications on her quest to take on the Eldrazi, and have the lessons she learns at the cost of losing to Thassa influence her future approach to attacking them on Zendikar.
I would argue Lilliana even fears her in a way. After her Angel killing spree to arrive at the Helvault, she sure wasn't too interested in sticking around after Avacyn's release. Granted she kills Griselbrand; but he's not nearly as powerful as Avacyn nor is he Indestructible. He needed a trick just to temporarily bind Avacyn.
I think your argument would ring a little hollow.
For one, Avacyn is just as susceptible to black's signature weakness spells. Liliana is super charged with the dead souls of an entire trollish nation. If she cast Mutilate Avacyn is going to slough away like rotten meat.
Aside from that, you also have to take into consideration that Avacyn and Griselbrand fought for more than THREE DAYS without end. They were very evenly matched.
Avacyn could no more kill Griselbrand than he could kill her. That's why she HAD to use the Helvault.
I would argue Lilliana even fears her in a way. After her Angel killing spree to arrive at the Helvault, she sure wasn't too interested in sticking around after Avacyn's release. Granted she kills Griselbrand; but he's not nearly as powerful as Avacyn nor is he Indestructible. He needed a trick just to temporarily bind Avacyn.
I think your argument would ring a little hollow.
For one, Avacyn is just as susceptible to black's signature weakness spells. Liliana is super charged with the dead souls of an entire trollish nation. If she cast Mutilate Avacyn is going to slough away like rotten meat.
Aside from that, you also have to take into consideration that Avacyn and Griselbrand fought for more than THREE DAYS without end. They were very evenly matched.
Avacyn could no more kill Griselbrand than he could kill her. That's why she HAD to use the Helvault.
You missed my edit, though the Avacyn argument is still the same.
It was my understanding that Avacyn could kill Griselbrand - and any demon she fought - but needed to use the Helvault because killing them was futile as they would simply regenerate again and could only be bound. Griselbrand then may not necessarily be evenly matched with Avacyn, but merely elusive in battle knowing she is constrained by the method she must defeat him with (locking rather than outright destroying him). It's like the unstoppable force and immovable object - the brute force of her power won't help, and she handicapped herself by being force to use the Helvault - an opportunity Griselbrand exploited to seal her with him. I think Avacyn is leagues more powerful than anyone on Innistrad.
I don't think Mutilate will help Lilliana. Avacyn has Avacyn's Mask and thus, Hexproof. She's a flying 9/10 Indestructible, Hexproof Vigilant archangel with an army of Indestructible 4/4 angels beyond the 3 main flights (Moonsilver Spear). I doubt a PW is getting anywhere near that.
You missed my edit, though the Avacyn argument is still the same.
It was my understanding that Avacyn could kill Griselbrand - and any demon she fought - but needed to use the Helvault because killing them was futile as they would simply regenerate again and could only be bound. Griselbrand then may not necessarily be evenly matched with Avacyn, but merely elusive in battle knowing she is constrained by the method she must defeat him with (locking rather than outright destroying him). It's like the unstoppable force and immovable object - the brute force of her power won't help, and she handicapped herself by being force to use the Helvault - an opportunity Griselbrand exploited to seal her with him. I think Avacyn is leagues more powerful than anyone on Innistrad.
Griselbrand was far more powerful than any other demon she's ever fought. If he was an easy battle, she would have locked him into the Helvault in the first ten minutes, but the fact that they battled for 3 days is a whole different barrel of fish.
It is important to note as well that Avacyn's power is directly influenced by how powerful she NEEDS to be to defend humanity, not even herself. Her power actually fades completely in the province of Stensia specifically to act as a safety valve to make sure she doesn't have the ability to wipe out the vampires in their homes.
I don't think Mutilate will help Lilliana. Avacyn has Avacyn's Mask and thus, Hexproof. She's a flying 9/10 Indestructible, Hexproof Vigilant archangel with an army of Indestructible 4/4 angels beyond the 3 main flights (Moonsilver Spear). I doubt a PW is getting anywhere near that.
Mutilate doesn't target, can exceed 10 swamps and wipes out the entirety of a field.
It gives EVERY CREATURE -x/-x equal to the amount of power the walker is capable of bringing to bear. Failing that, Killing Wave has no trouble eliminating angels.
Liliana is currently supercharged like you wouldn't believe. She blew up Griselbrand, a being that stood toe to toe with Avacyn, with a minimum of effort.
Avacyn really is a limited creature, especially considering what Liliana has become a vessel for.
I don't think Mutilate will help Lilliana. Avacyn has Avacyn's Mask and thus, Hexproof. She's a flying 9/10 Indestructible, Hexproof Vigilant archangel with an army of Indestructible 4/4 angels beyond the 3 main flights (Moonsilver Spear). I doubt a PW is getting anywhere near that.
Black Sun's Zenith for ten.
In my opinion PWs are stronger. Even Avacyn's existence is because Sorin Markov willed.
I think we're looking too closely at cards when talking about how one would defeat Avacyn. I doubt that in the thousands of battles that Avacyn had where she hard-bodies a demon, not a single one of them tried to use a weakness/decay spell. I'm pretty sure Avacyn has a defense against that kind of magic. The protector of a plane can't lose to simple black magic especially if that is by far the most common type of problem-causing magic on that plane. In other words, I'm going to assume that Sorin isn't an idiot.
Also, Sorin was most likely old-walker status when he created Avacyn. As much as I like planeswalkers, I don't believe that they can mess with a plane's "super-entity" unless you were Bolas or maybe Karn or Sorin.
I think we're looking too closely at cards when talking about how one would defeat Avacyn. I doubt that in the thousands of battles that Avacyn had where she hard-bodies a demon, not a single one of them tried to use a weakness/decay spell. I'm pretty sure Avacyn has a defense against that kind of magic. The protector of a plane can't lose to simple black magic especially if that is by far the most common type of problem-causing magic on that plane. In other words, I'm going to assume that Sorin isn't an idiot.
The biggest two things, of course, is that Avacyn was built to protect against Innistradi magic. Sorin wouldn't have had much call to protect her from something he didn't honestly expect others to have access to.
But even then: the Chain Veil would wreck her.
Also, Sorin was most likely old-walker status when he created Avacyn. As much as I like planeswalkers, I don't believe that they can mess with a plane's "super-entity" unless you were Bolas or maybe Karn or Sorin.
Yes, Sorin was an oldwalker when he created her thousands of years ago.
Liliana was an oldwalker too, and like I've pointed out, she's probably carrying more mojo these days than Sorin. Maybe Karn too.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This is rather amusing considering the bedfellows he's been keeping as of late.
He's also dead certain that he could wipe Ashiok out without even blinking, but Ashiok seems to be leading him on.
Being intelligent is not the defining trait of Blue. She definitely seeking knowledge, looking for a monster bigger than the Eldrazi isn't a particularly useful thing to be doing but the drive to explore is extremely Blue. Kiora's flaw seems to be a total lack of wisdom. She believes that every problem can be solved if you just get a bigger and better hammer. It's not a good plane. It's not a smart plan. It is a justifiably UG plan.
So long as the god is fully powered that would be very difficult. The book describes them as abstract beings, Kruphix is the horizon and Phenax is listening behind every corner. Even their physical manifestations are just shells filled with Nyx-stuff. They're arrogant enough to be tricked into it but there's a reason Elspeth needs the Godsend.
Can planeswalkers even take another being with them when they planeswalk? That seems a little crazy...
Nope.
The exact limits of a planeswalker carrying capacity are left purposefully vague. Which is really for the best.
It's kind of a double standard though, in the same way we encounter animals being assigned colors. A lot of times, it IS based on their environment. Merfolk really aren't that much different. Most all of the merfolk do not value knowledge or many of the other blue values and have either run a mercantile empire, or much much more prevalently, have been militaristic sovereignities. The most famous of their numbers, the Vodalian were soldiers and conquerors, not sages or wizards.
As an aside too, Deceit is actually given as HALF of blue's value. Intellect and deceit, so it really doesn't need black's influence for deception to be prevalent in its core concepts.
I dunno, I doubt anything is arrogant enough to think that if an enemy grabs you, there's nothing bad that could possibly happen. In any case, planeswalking takes an absurd amount of concentration to trigger so trying to bring an unwilling captive seems impossible for most planeswalkers if that is even a thing.
And yeah, there's that whole "gods not being truly corporeal" thing that they have plus shapeshifting. You'd honestly be better off flailing the Godsend around than trying to touch a god.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
Also Dyfed was able to take Yawgmoth to Phyrexia. But now that planeswalkers aren't god-like anymore I'm not sure.
On the subject of gods vs planeswalkers:
Because the mending made all planeswalkers really weak the only planeswalker, that I know of, with enough magical might to fight a god would be Nicol Bolas. (I say 'fight' because even though Elspeth can take on Xenagos she needed the aid of Kruphix to do it and Bolas could probably solo most gods) Because of the card 'Deicide' it has been shown that gods can be killed. Because of the recent story involving Ashiok trying to create a god it has been shown that planeswalkers can affect the realm of Nyx and even, almost, create gods themselves.
I imagine a being like Bolas, who is 25,000 years old and powerful beyond measure, could find an easy way to kill a god
Having information availiable to you doesn't necessarily mean you will apply it in the most efficient manner. Sure, it will be counterproductive to not make a conscious effort to apply it, but it happens. (And for the reccord, Green can very easily be weak and thrive, and Black can use altruism to it's advantages; neither prevents successful survival or gaining power, respectively).
A good example of a Blue "stupid" character is the Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz, who sees a problem (i.e. perceiving the absence of a brain) and tries to fix it, without considering the numerous reasons as to why it's a moronic quest. Or, closer to home, Lisa Simpson on later seasons.
All the walkers who get cards are ones that take advantage planeswalker to learn wider variety of magics and a develop a broader power base than most mages do and thus, in practice, are quite powerful. Heliod interrogates Daxos about the ability to become indestructible where Elspeth had used against him because he doesn't understand what happened. Presumably she cast something like Indestructibility on herself, a spell which no mage from Theros would ever cast (probably incidentally, the only ways to become indestructible in Theros Block are a moment of Mortal's Resolve and Ajani's Presence which isn't magic native to Theros)
I'd say a Blue character being dumb is more like a Green character being small or a Black character being nice. It's a reminder that "smart", "large", and "cruel" are common characteristics of those colors, not defining ones.
If Kiora were from Ravnica she would support the Simic philosophy of Upwelling, which involves things like raising up the greatest monsters from the deep.
A bird's environment is the air, Blue. Dwarves weren't removed for being red as far as a I know.
Either way, magic associated with the sea is extremely Blue in Magic, there's no getting around that. A monogreen walker isn't going to summon leviathans.
Actually, in that you are explicitly wrong. Brady Dommermuth refuted the claims that Kiora shared any philosophy with the Simic back when that speculation was rampant last year.
He confirmed that Kiora was not part of the Simic guild and her goals don't really line up with the Simic goals. My point is mainly that "summon giant sea monsters for the hell of it" is a known UG thing, as indicated by the Upwelling philosophy.
Kiora's modus operandi is "summon giant fish to smash enemy into potato juice". That doesn't sound very progressive or interested in the welfare of others to me.
The Vodalians were used as late as Invasion and the Saprazzans of Mercadia were mercantile as well.
The Rathi merfolk are kind of an all over exception.
As to the Vedalken, they created them to replace merfolk not because they better exemplify the blue ideals, though they do, but because there were worlds which they could not have used merfolk at the time. Since the return of our finny friends, not much has changed from how they were previously construed by and large.
There's clearly a search for glory and favor rather than knowledge in the Triton society, but there really isn't a lot to take away from them.
The merfolk of RtR though, should be taken as an exception, for several reasons, chiefly in how forced they were to begin with. Yet another thing RtR bungled.
You can't really ignore the core sets here. The core sets have the pivotal examples of what every color is about. While expert sets have it's own story and will do color pie exceptions to fit that story/design (ex: mono blue zombies in innistrand), core sets normally have cards that could appear in a larger number of planes - meaning those cards represents what each color have in a generic manner.
As you can see, merfolk appear in blue core sets a lot, along side sea monsters, phantom soldiers and other kind of stuff. Blue is not about knowledge, that's just a aspect of blue that some mother ship writers like to push.
About dwarven, the reason why WotC don't do it is because they have a vested interest in separating MTG and D&D franchises.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
How is Avacyn more killable than a Theros or "actual" god? She is Indestructible just as they are. Avacyn is essentially the Archangel god of Innistrad IMO. I would argue Lilliana even fears her in a way. After her Angel killing spree to arrive at the Helvault, she sure wasn't too interested in sticking around after Avacyn's release. Granted she kills Griselbrand; but he's not nearly as powerful as Avacyn nor is he Indestructible. He needed a trick just to temporarily bind Avacyn.
I highly doubt a Planeswalker could defeat a god on Theros. Elspeth has Godsend after all and is probably allowed into Nyx by Kruphix - having depended on another god to even attempt the task of slaying Xenagos just as she needed Purphoros/Heliod to fashion the weapon to do it. On Theros, the gods are a major deal. Thassa controls the entire ocean and all its sea creatures. Kiora has access to exotic spells, but after summoning Trench Gorger, casting Whelming Wave and Planeswalking, she was exhausted. Thassa can cast the entire Siren Sea worth of 9/9 Leviathans just by appearing.
Thassa should have the upper hand. In her realm especially. I think Kiora should lose, and learn from her mistakes. She should consider that being defeated by an ocean god on Theros may have implications on her quest to take on the Eldrazi, and have the lessons she learns at the cost of losing to Thassa influence her future approach to attacking them on Zendikar.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
I think your argument would ring a little hollow.
For one, Avacyn is just as susceptible to black's signature weakness spells. Liliana is super charged with the dead souls of an entire trollish nation. If she cast Mutilate Avacyn is going to slough away like rotten meat.
Aside from that, you also have to take into consideration that Avacyn and Griselbrand fought for more than THREE DAYS without end. They were very evenly matched.
Avacyn could no more kill Griselbrand than he could kill her. That's why she HAD to use the Helvault.
You missed my edit, though the Avacyn argument is still the same.
It was my understanding that Avacyn could kill Griselbrand - and any demon she fought - but needed to use the Helvault because killing them was futile as they would simply regenerate again and could only be bound. Griselbrand then may not necessarily be evenly matched with Avacyn, but merely elusive in battle knowing she is constrained by the method she must defeat him with (locking rather than outright destroying him). It's like the unstoppable force and immovable object - the brute force of her power won't help, and she handicapped herself by being force to use the Helvault - an opportunity Griselbrand exploited to seal her with him. I think Avacyn is leagues more powerful than anyone on Innistrad.
I don't think Mutilate will help Lilliana. Avacyn has Avacyn's Mask and thus, Hexproof. She's a flying 9/10 Indestructible, Hexproof Vigilant archangel with an army of Indestructible 4/4 angels beyond the 3 main flights (Moonsilver Spear). I doubt a PW is getting anywhere near that.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Griselbrand was far more powerful than any other demon she's ever fought. If he was an easy battle, she would have locked him into the Helvault in the first ten minutes, but the fact that they battled for 3 days is a whole different barrel of fish.
It is important to note as well that Avacyn's power is directly influenced by how powerful she NEEDS to be to defend humanity, not even herself. Her power actually fades completely in the province of Stensia specifically to act as a safety valve to make sure she doesn't have the ability to wipe out the vampires in their homes.
Mutilate doesn't target, can exceed 10 swamps and wipes out the entirety of a field.
It gives EVERY CREATURE -x/-x equal to the amount of power the walker is capable of bringing to bear. Failing that, Killing Wave has no trouble eliminating angels.
Liliana is currently supercharged like you wouldn't believe. She blew up Griselbrand, a being that stood toe to toe with Avacyn, with a minimum of effort.
Avacyn really is a limited creature, especially considering what Liliana has become a vessel for.
In my opinion PWs are stronger. Even Avacyn's existence is because Sorin Markov willed.
Or if you really want to talk in cards, Lapse of Certainty. Or Mana Tithe because your Black Sun's Zenith required so much mana.
Also, Sorin was most likely old-walker status when he created Avacyn. As much as I like planeswalkers, I don't believe that they can mess with a plane's "super-entity" unless you were Bolas or maybe Karn or Sorin.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
The biggest two things, of course, is that Avacyn was built to protect against Innistradi magic. Sorin wouldn't have had much call to protect her from something he didn't honestly expect others to have access to.
But even then: the Chain Veil would wreck her.
Yes, Sorin was an oldwalker when he created her thousands of years ago.
Liliana was an oldwalker too, and like I've pointed out, she's probably carrying more mojo these days than Sorin. Maybe Karn too.