You're confusing the colors' philosophies. Black is not about accepting the natural order of things, it's about making use of everything at your disposal to put yourself ahead. Just because a black character can accept that doesn't mean that it isn't an important part of black's core philosophy. Black will subvert and upset the "natural order" whenever it gets in the way of its own goals and desires. It accepts that death is necessary, but it also uses death as a tool to get what it wants. Xenagos wants to feel important and powerful, so he is willing to subvert and overthrow the natural order of Theros (a static pantheon that lives in symbiosis with the mortal residents) in order to make his goal a reality, inserting himself into a pantheon where he doesn't belong for the sake of his own pride and glory.
Is there anything natural about something that's static, though? Nature changes constantly on a molecular level. Thus I feel that bringing a change to the Theros pantheon in this instance is a action. Xenagos is taking something that we both agree to be a natural order, the static pantheon, and breaking the "stasis" by bringing the pantheon to a new stage of development. Or at least Xenagos is trying to do so by seeking godhood. It feels more than and adds a bit of depth to :symg:.
Lady Caleria had no problem trying to violently overthrow the Madaran Empire, and she is a character. I was going to use Thriss and Seton as my examples, though as far as I can recall their problem was less with the Cabal and more with the Mirari and whoever happened to wield it. So I mention Caleria to provide an example from the past where a character acted impulsively to overthrow an established order that felt natural to its people.
My point of view on Xenegos is that his pretty much a Gruul guy. Green is the color of strength and predators. Red associate emotion to things. One way of making a RG character is to make then engaged in becoming the strongest. Not purely out of necessity (that would be green) but because they are emotionally charged in becoming the biggest. That's pretty much the the gruul legends works - they want to be the alpha leader and the strongest guy around for no other reason but the feeling of accomplishment, superiority and pride.
Xenegos is basically this. When he walked out of Theros he realized how small himself and the gods were to the great scheme of things. He realized he wanted to stay on Theros but knowing the gods are not true gods (creators of the universe, because a broader multiverse exists) he realized he could become one of then. And if he did he would be the greatest around him, and that's what the typical character wants.
His not black because black character have a less emotional approach to the lust for power.
Each color's philosophy has its exceptions, but those exceptions are exactly that, exceptions, deviations from the norm.
Black accepts death as being necessary and natural, as does green. This is common ground the two share. Where they deviate is that green accepts that death has its appropriate time and that its purpose is to perpetuate the greater circle of life, treating it with reverence and respect, while black sees it as yet another tool in its arsenal, a force to be manipulated and controlled. Black will casually reverse death to animate unliving tissue, or commit murder for the sake of convenience and personal agenda as opposed to strictly a matter of survival. It respects the power of death, but doesn't treat it with the sanctity that green does.
Cases such as Erebos subvert this, but they are exceptions as stated above, the product of a setting's influence on the colors that can shape them into something different from the norm. New Phyrexia is a great example of this; the Phyrexian philosophy twists every color (except black, probably) into a twisted mockery of itself. Phyrexian green philosophy is not true green philosophy, it cherry-picks the ideas that are consistent with Phyrexian ideals and ignores the rest. Erebos is a deviation from normal black philosophy because Theros, as a world inspired by Greek mythology, has a pervasive theme of destiny.
I strongly dislike the "it's not the true form of the colors" approach, since it narrows what the colours are, which is anything other than narrow. Green Phyrexia is Green, just a Green where some aspects are under developed - and even then, Beznir and co showcase that many of Green's aspects, like hollism and spirituality, are expressed vividly in Phyrexia. Phyrexia at most simply stresses some of the nastier sides of the colours, but it never, ever twists them: Red is still empathetic, White is still community, Blue is still knowledge, and they just happen to express darker sides (neglect, sewing, experimentation) instead of good sides (sympathy, kindness, progress).
Indeed, since this "Black is associated with the natural order of decay" seems to exist outside of Theros, one can assume it's a nice Black aspect. Manipulation and twisting therefore are just the nasty consequence. Likewise, Green is associated with ferocity and social darwinism... and I don't think there's any road byt the negative one to take here.
I think it may be too reductive to argue for Xenagos being black. You could apply the same reasoning to conclude that Konda ought to have been black because although part of his motivation involved purported white goals, his methods were certainly self-advancing and in the face of the outcome of his actions (the Kami war being the opposite effect of promoting peace and prosperity for his people), he chose to continue his self-advancement over the good of the community.
But Konda wasn't black, he was white. I think it's important that we view this not as a mistake of color identity in terms of the storyline but as speaking to the nature of villains in any color. A protagonist or neutral character represents their color's ideology in such a way as to demonstrate its possibility to promote virtue (in the former case) or to use consistency to make the ideology of the color more explicit (in the latter case). Villains however have made some kind of moral failing, as such, they may actually demonstrate inconsistency with their color (you could argue perhaps if they understood their color's ideology or its application to their context better they would instead be good guys) or the possibility of the color to promote moral failure (perhaps the colors themselves are fundamentally incoherent, or otherwise include contradictory elements).
When you put it that way, a grab for power might not be inherently black in all cases. Perhaps the fact that Xenagos does choose to remain on Theros indicates a non-black factor; if he wanted power for its own sake in the black fashion, then he would prefer to accumulate it infinitely and never settle for self-imposed constraints of an existing system.
Also. I think Xenagos' quote on Annul is about as green as it gets, personally. He's saying the order imposed by the gods is an illusory authority (U), its true nature being form of exploitation (B).
Indeed, ambitious ascension per se is not a characteristic exclusive to Black. Blue and White antagonists have been doing it for a while. Conversely, some Black antagonists might not be of the ambitious type, but rather non-subtle sadists. What matters is the philosophy behind these: people interested in selfish advancement are Black (or Red), while other colours are associated with other motives.
Now that I think about it, Annul does sound quite Green indeed.
From flavor text we have the names of the 10 minor gods, but what are they gods of? I think the gods that'll appear in Born and Journey are:
WU Ephara, goddess of law/sanctity. WB Athreos, god of spirits. UB Phenax, god of deceit. UR Keranos, god of storms. BR Mogis, minotaur god, of slaughter. BG Pharika, gorgon?, goddess of poison. RW Iroas, centaur god of victory. RG Xenagos, in the future, god of abandon. GU Kruphix, god of time. GW Karametra, goddess of the hearth
What intrigues me the most is how they will actually work, will they have devotion to two colors? Both? Either? Will they be enchantments too? Will they have weapons, ordeals and emissaries? Will those be multicolor too?
Too many questions!
I just really hope they don't **** it up again in giving us a great reanimator commander in WB, Athreos is Theros' Charon proxi, if he isn't designed around reanimation it'll be the biggest lost opportunity in the history of top down design.
There's already a thread for discussion the pantheon of Theros. Next time, please use the Search function to see if we're already actively discussing something before starting a new thread. I'm just merging these two threads.
Unless there is some flavorful reason as to be different than the first five, which I doubt, I'd wager they're multicolored and turn on if you have a combined devotion equal to either color to a certain number.
If they want to keep it at five like the last bunch, they might be hybrid, but that would make them harder to design.
Devotion is critical to the flavor of the gods; the whole point is that they are not able to fully manifest unless they have enough worship (your devotion is high enough to empower them). So, I expect we will have some sort of devotion-related ability.
I could devotion keying to their abilities. Abilities that care about your devotion (in the vein of "deals damage equal to your devotion to red") or that only work if you're devotion to a color is above a threshold ("Activate this ability only if your devotion to red is 5 or greater.") In a way they'd be the mirror of the major gods; they physically appear as soon as you summon them, but they're powerless unless you have the proper devotion.
What I actually expect is that they'll have some sort of devotion to multiple colors. The most straight-forward way to have gold devotion restrictions similar to the major gods would be "As long as your devotion to blue and/or red is less than NUMBER, CARDNAME isn't a creature. (Each in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to blue and/or red.)" That runs into some grokabliity issues, because people will be looking for actual symbols rather than or :symr:, and the actual ability text is messy because devotion to C uses the written word rather than the mana symbol.
It would almost have to be "As long as your devotion to blue and/or red is less than NUMBER, CARDNAME isn't a creature. (Each or in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to blue and/or red.)" That's quiet wordy.
one hybrid mana symbol
indestructible
Turns on if your combined devotion to both colors is 5 or more (it counts Or rather than and, so its own mana symbol only counts for one)
one static effect that works in both colors
one activated ability that is multicolored
big booty
Example:
Karamtera, God of the Hearth :SymGW:
Legendary Enchantment Creature-God
Indestructible
As long as your combined devotion to white and green is less than 5, Karametra isn't a creature.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, gain 1 life. 2GW: Return target creature card from a graveyard to its owner's hand.
5/4
one hybrid mana symbol
indestructible
Turns on if your combined devotion to both colors is 5 or more (it counts Or rather than and, so its own mana symbol only counts for one)
one static effect that works in both colors
one activated ability that is multicolored
big booty
Honestly, it's more likely that it wont be using hybrid. It'll probably be more along the line of 1UR.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
But hybrid is supposed to be for cards that could fit in either color.
Maybe they'll be easier to hit devotion for, and take a power hit to compensate? After all, everyone knows that it takes less effort to bring in weaker things
But hybrid is supposed to be for cards that could fit in either color.
Maybe they'll be easier to hit devotion for, and take a power hit to compensate? After all, everyone knows that it takes less effort to bring in weaker things
Tell that to the 1/1 virtual vanilla for eight mana in Scourge.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I think the gods will have have both mana symbols, and needs a devotion of three to each color.
Ex:
Keranos, God of StormsXUR
As long as your devotion to red is less than 3, Keranos isn't a creature
As long as your devotion to blue is less than 3, Keranos isn't a creature
(Ability)
This works similarly to the major gods, in that you need 4 symbols other than the God to activate him.(Major gods require 5, but give you 1, minor would require a total of 6, but give you 2). Another possibility is to have two abilites, each one linked to the devotion for one of the colors
Being the god of lies and deceit, he might actually have a built-in counterspell/discard, mill has notthing to do with deceit.
Honestly, I think U/B are going to work well with mill, but won't be a mill card in itself, much like Wrexial, the Risen Deep.
Wrexial had awesome synergy with mill cards, but was not a source of milling himself. Being able to cast sorceries and instants from your opponents graveyard is quite a good ability, and very blue/black. The UB god could have something similar.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
one hybrid mana symbol
indestructible
Turns on if your combined devotion to both colors is 5 or more (it counts Or rather than and, so its own mana symbol only counts for one)
one static effect that works in both colors
one activated ability that is multicolored
big booty
Example:
Karamtera, God of the Hearth :SymGW:
Legendary Enchantment Creature-God
Indestructible
As long as your combined devotion to white and green is less than 5, Karametra isn't a creature.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, gain 1 life. 2GW: Return target creature card from a graveyard to its owner's hand.
5/4
Or something like that,
I don't think this will happen since it will be super confusing to new players. I had to read over this multiple times to decipher why the hybrid mana symbol wouldn't count for 2 devotion the way you have the card written and I still don't fully understand it.
Heck, at the Theros prerelease people were asking if a destroy enchantment card would kill an enchantment creature.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Book of the Dead »
Does the Walker choose the Path, or the Path the Walker?
EDH/Commander
Olivia Voldaren
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Rosheen Meanderer
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Vela the Night-Clad
I don't think this will happen since it will be super confusing to new players. I had to read over this multiple times to decipher why the hybrid mana symbol wouldn't count for 2 devotion the way you have the card written and I still don't fully understand it.
Heck, at the Theros prerelease people were asking if a destroy enchantment card would kill an enchantment creature.
I thought it was bleedin' obvious that yes it does.
Enchantment removal is going to be very useful in Theros standard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
We really don't know a lot about Xenagos, especially from his own perspective.
We have two sets left AND a book.
I'm reserving judgement.
I think that each of the colors are broad enough to encompass multiple viewpoints, even conflicting ones.
I feel that, of what we know of him, Xenagos is red because he wants to feel. As a satyr, he wired towards new experiences.
I feel that he is green because of his disregard for socially imposed structure and his respect for power. Yes, these meet at the cross section of black, but so did pretty much everything about Ral.
This exactly. In my view, it is only possible for non-sentients to TRULY be Izzet or Gruul, WITHOUT being ultimately Jund or Grixis. Red just works that way when it comes to People (Legendary Creatures, Planeswalkers, humanoids) instead of animals/beasts/creatures.
Ral Zarek was hardcore Grixis in his IDEOLOGY, but his Weapons of choice were simply Red/Blue. Essentially I'm calling him out as too queasy to cast Murder, but he's only fooling himself when he doesn't admit that a Lightning Bolt might just as well be the same fate.
A character's color Alignment in MTG I think is a complex blend of both what they really are on the inside and their self-delusions about what they Think they are. This is basically the only way to prevent every actually complex character from being 5-colored, actually. Or...at least 3-colored.
Yes, fully developed characters always come across to me as at least 3-colored.
Elspeth- 5colored Good- more because she has the failings of every color than because of their strengths.
But contrast this to Bolas. How Ironic.
Ajani- Naya or Dark Naya. Ajani and Garruk are both Awesome. Very Law of the Jungle-y.
Ajani cares a little bit more about others than Garruk. They are both basically nice guys that
you just can't give B.S. to.
Nicol Bolas- 5colored Evil, because he has learned all the Power of Magic. At least at his height. But even though he has all the Strengths of the Colors, doesn't mean he has none of their weaknesses. He has a LOT of Weakness from Black and Blue, a very little of what Black would call "White's Weakness", the Weakness that Elspeth has more of than any other Planeswalker we've seen, but she isn't as good at channeling it into Strength like Ajani is.
I find it incredibly difficult to believe that there are spells Nicol Bolas *Can't* cast, but also very easy to believe that there are spells he *won't* or *is unlikely* to cast (Some kinds of Green Beasts seem like they'd be a favored tool for certain jobs, and I'm positive that resurrecting Tezzeret's mind involved White magic as well as Blue. He used Good for Evil means, because he's <-that-> much of a jerk.)
MODERN (post-Mending) Bolas might actually be limited in his nature now, but I still think his Library is basically 5-colored.
Sarkhan Vol- Jund, through and through. He's the Most Jund Person in the multiverse. He just barely might cast a White heal spell on himself or an arcane Blue spell to explore a Dragon's lair...maybe like to learn Draconic language? But just because he does that on the rarest of occasions, doesn't mean he's actually aligned- he just pragmatically casts what he needs to fuel his shamanism.
Tezzeret- 4 Non-Green (amoralist and has anger issues)
Jace- Esper or Esper + Green, depending on how Pantheist his worldview becomes after ascending to be The Guildpact. Kind of White Lantern-y?
Chandra- Black Red White
Liliana- Black White Green Evil (as amoralist as Tezzeret, wants to live forever, has more control over her Emotions. Green cares just a tad more about its own Survival than Black, but she couldn't give fewer damns what happens to the Trees.)
Garruk- 4 Non-Blue Pretty much an Ultimate Greek Tragic Hero, in my mind, where Strength is just as Virtuous as Compassion.
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
This exactly. In my view, it is only possible for non-sentients to TRULY be Izzet or Gruul, WITHOUT being ultimately Jund or Grixis. Red just works that way when it comes to People (Legendary Creatures, Planeswalkers, humanoids) instead of animals/beasts/creatures.
Ral Zarek was hardcore Grixis in his IDEOLOGY, but his Weapons of choice were simply Red/Blue. Essentially I'm calling him out as too queasy to cast Murder, but he's only fooling himself when he doesn't admit that a Lightning Bolt might just as well be the same fate.
A character's color Alignment in MTG I think is a complex blend of both what they really are on the inside and their self-delusions about what they Think they are. This is basically the only way to prevent every actually complex character from being 5-colored, actually. Or...at least 3-colored.
Yes, fully developed characters always come across to me as at least 3-colored.
Elspeth- 5colored Good- more because she has the failings of every color than because of their strengths.
But contrast this to Bolas. How Ironic.
Ajani- Naya or Dark Naya. Ajani and Garruk are both Awesome. Very Law of the Jungle-y.
Ajani cares a little bit more about others than Garruk. They are both basically nice guys that
you just can't give B.S. to.
Nicol Bolas- 5colored Evil, because he has learned all the Power of Magic. At least at his height. But even though he has all the Strengths of the Colors, doesn't mean he has none of their weaknesses. He has a LOT of Weakness from Black and Blue, a very little of what Black would call "White's Weakness", the Weakness that Elspeth has more of than any other Planeswalker we've seen, but she isn't as good at channeling it into Strength like Ajani is.
I find it incredibly difficult to believe that there are spells Nicol Bolas *Can't* cast, but also very easy to believe that there are spells he *won't* or *is unlikely* to cast (Some kinds of Green Beasts seem like they'd be a favored tool for certain jobs, and I'm positive that resurrecting Tezzeret's mind involved White magic as well as Blue. He used Good for Evil means, because he's <-that-> much of a jerk.)
MODERN (post-Mending) Bolas might actually be limited in his nature now, but I still think his Library is basically 5-colored.
Sarkhan Vol- Jund, through and through. He's the Most Jund Person in the multiverse. He just barely might cast a White heal spell on himself or an arcane Blue spell to explore a Dragon's lair...maybe like to learn Draconic language? But just because he does that on the rarest of occasions, doesn't mean he's actually aligned- he just pragmatically casts what he needs to fuel his shamanism.
Tezzeret- 4 Non-Green (amoralist and has anger issues)
Jace- Esper or Esper + Green, depending on how Pantheist his worldview becomes after ascending to be The Guildpact. Kind of White Lantern-y?
Chandra- Black Red White
Liliana- Black White Green Evil (as amoralist as Tezzeret, wants to live forever, has more control over her Emotions. Green cares just a tad more about its own Survival than Black, but she couldn't give fewer damns what happens to the Trees.)
Garruk- 4 Non-Blue Pretty much an Ultimate Greek Tragic Hero, in my mind, where Strength is just as Virtuous as Compassion.
I think you're misinterpreting the point of colour alignment. Again, having emotions does not make a person Red; it's living following Red's philosophy, by embracing your emotions and following your impulses, that a one is aligned to Red. There are, for example, characters that are, say, mono-Blue, but are driven by revenge (Ixidor) or have severe anger issues (Tezzeret), but are still not Red because of their emotions. Likewise, there are Black characters with some degree of conscience (pre-Innistrad Sorin, Toshiro, Xantcha), but that does not in any way make them White.
The fact that many cards have other colour activation pretty much means that colour use does not make you aligned with that colour.
Which is why we see Xenagos' Planeswalker card **appears** to be the same alignment as Sarkhan Vol 1.0, but in actuality as his personality develops, he has a lot in common with Ral Zarek and Nicol Bolas.
Because he views himself as Simply a God of the Satyrs, and yet he is ignorant of how Black and Blue he is right now.
Also, the Oracle is lolz-wrong to say that its hard to be an Atheist in a world where the Gods are real. There's a branch of ideology called Satanist-Atheism, and on a Plane where the Gods are Real, it's probably very easy for Xenagos types go from Satanism (God Hating) to Make Atheism True (Dei-Genocide)
You don't have to 'disbelieve the existence of God' to be a certain shade that really only fits in with Atheism. Satan himself I would say is usually a Satanist-Atheist: portrayed as seeking the Destruction of God. Kind of Nihilist also. A lot of people are hatin' on Heliod and I would call those people Satanist-Atheists (in regards to the Pantheon of Theros, not in regards to the real world) whether they know it or not. They don't give blind Faith that Heliod is somehow implicitly a Perfect Superman Good Guy because they're aware of what he *could* be, because White is *able* to have personal character faults.
I think Elspeth Trusts Heliod, but hey, she's been wrong before.
The funny thing about Satanist-Atheism, is IF God is Flawed AND you can think of a Better Replacement, or some way to make the Universe no longer Need God, it's perfectly acceptable to claim that that's moral. But is the Potential for Flaw the same has Having Flaw? An unbroken crystal can be dropped and smashed- does that make it not whole?
If we SEE more of Heliod somehow portraying character flaws, like a mono White Orzhov Syndicatist or Azorius Senator, then maybe Xenagos actually has a POINT. That would be interesting, but I somehow don't feel that Wizards is going to deliberately portray Heliod as less than perfect.
THEY ALSO won't deliberately call him perfect either.
They will also, however, not pedestalize him any more than they've already done, and they might decide to show other Gods' opinion of him. They will attempt to show him as an Objective Embodiment of White, and leave the qualitative assessment up to us.
Honestly Xenagos is the most interesting character I've seen since Test of Metal, which was the best flavor since Agents of Artifice, which was the best flavor since Urza.
VERY excited about Born of the Gods and Journey into Nyx!
I do still think Xenagos is essentially Atheist-leaning, because he doesn't think the Gods should be revered as Gods, he considers them Just Beings like anyone else.....in his effort to prove that, he will inconsistently demand that he be treated as a God to make his point that they are no better than him....and that will lead to a downward spiral into believing himself to be Better than them.
"The gods exist but they are Not God" -using the word as a noun first, but then an adjective, see?
And, like, this is all pretty 'duh Duh DUH DUH XP' to even anyone who doesn't know anything except just what the Trailer shows xP
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
I think you're misinterpreting the point of colour alignment. Again, having emotions does not make a person Red; it's living following Red's philosophy, by embracing your emotions and following your impulses,
(emphasis mine) Ah, but here I must say this: While in order to Truly be Blue-Aligned, or White Aligned, I think one must display habitual continuous traits, I think that *because* of What Black, Red, and Green ARE, that even one act based on Black, Red, and Green Motivations make you more Black, Red, or Green Aligned than one White Act or one Blue Act would make you White-or-Blue-aligned. I believe that your are spot-on in you attitude towards what makes Blue-Aligned "Blue" and White-Aligned "White"
that a one is aligned to Red. There are, for example, characters that are, say, mono-Blue, but are driven by revenge (Ixidor) or have severe anger issues (Tezzeret), but are still not Red because of their emotions. Likewise, there are Black characters with some degree of conscience (pre-Innistrad Sorin, Toshiro, Xantcha), but that does not in any way make them White.
The fact that many cards have other colour activation pretty much means that colour use does not make you aligned with that colour.
Ixidor lived a Blue Life, and so he is Blue, but I think being motivated by Revenge made him either Red or Black as well.
Sorin was revealed to be Black-White, and he's ancient and likely just the same basic Nature on Innistrad as on Zendikar, the card's different mana-costs showing that he was using only Black Tools on Zendikar and that he used White Tools as well on Innistrad and that in fact his real nature is Black-White. Sorin doesn't help your argument.
Xantcha I don't recall ever using Magic because she was a Phyrexian newt. I'd have to look up old books...
I say that Color Alignment is a touchy complex issue, and I self-criticize what I just stated with this caveat:
Black is the hardest for me to figure out. Frankly, I'm SURE that "One Green Act" or "One Red Act" is enough to justify that you have a Red or Green Nature in you, even if it rarely overrides the Life Habits, the mere fact that it ever does once, proves it's enough a part of you 'to count'.
Whether BLACK Alignment behaves more like Green or Red alignment, or more like White or Blue Alignment, is a topic I'm willing to say is open for debate.
I'm glad you mentioned Sorin though, because that's an EXCELLENT way to prove that Mana Costs on cardboard representations indicate more 'what spells am I casting this week' than 'Who Am I?', and that's a big reason why cards change colors.
ALTHOUGH other Planeswalker cards "Color-Shift" (example: Ajani Vengeant, Sarkhan the Mad, Garruk the Veil-Cursed) to show an Actual time when they Transformed their Natures, I don't believe that Sorin was ''moved'' inwardly to ''become More White" than he already was, since he needed his PRE-MENDING power to create Avacyn in the first place.
Jace Beleren, for example, has been resoundingly Blue-Black-White in all of his depictions in the lore, mainly Blue and at a Crossroads when it comes to White and Black.....and *staying at that crossroads* and *continually* doing White and Black things enough that there isn't enough support to say he's not White: he's clearly in favor of Order and seeks Goodness.....and he's clearly Black: *frequently* motivated by Greed, his mere intelligence gives him the opportunity to Exploit Money and he uses that. and on occasion chooses Selfish Interests over the good of the many who need him. The only reason he is portrayed "Mono Blue" is because Blue is the only color he has MASTERY of. Blue is the color he can safely use as a Combat Tool in self-defense or aggression. He doesn't have enough self-knowledge or acceptance or experience with the conflicting eclipsing phases of his White and Black to actually form many spells with it, but analyzing his Character Nature reveals he has the other two Color Alignments, for sure.
Ajani's card on THEROS is bound to be Green-White, but I believe that Ajani's Nature has, as long as he's been Sparked (reference: Duel Decks and Alara Unbroken), been Green-White-Red, and Maybe he will cool down his Nature when he ages (reference: Goldmane card), but he's not there yet. Maybe he'll be there at the end of this Block?
Tezzeret will behave Red, and can be pushed to behave Red, consistently, against his better judgment. /lifetime spent becoming Blue-Black-White. Red is his Character Flaw, and he won't be rid of it, but his cards will never have Red Mana Symbols because he *can't use it*. Right now he's got ONLY the Weakness of Red with none of its Strength. That's why he can't Firebend, even though he's got enough anger for it: he has no -real- control of his anger, only the ability, by exerting will, to -suppress- it.
^That is why I am sure that Nicol Bolas can cast Regrowth and Wrath of God, even though his mana symbols are only Grixis. He *can* tap Plains and Forests, but *chooses* not to, most of the time, because his Blue/Black/Red attitude persuades him against it.
How his Black Alignment is affecting his comprehension-but-not-preference of the White and Green outlooks, I don't really know. Once AGAIN Black is......fascinatingly mysterious, and confuses my entire efforts to understand what a Color Alignment even *really* means. How curious!
This type of conversation could go on forever though.
I admit this: My reasoning I believe is almost completely sound, except that it has huge gaping holes in it when it comes to Black Actions versus Black Natures...I'm not very good at unraveling the mysteries of Black Alignment.
Going out on a wild limb, I suspect this means I HAVE Black Alignment, because I am a Mystery to myself, and if I Knew myself, I wouldn't still be myself.
Planeswalkers can philosophically be of more colors than they actually cast spells of. That is my conclusion. Since the very Color Wheel itself is based on making claims about sorting Philosophical Attitudes into Colors, then it doesn't hold water that someone can somehow Act Very Red without Being Red, but it *does* hold water that just because you Act Red all the time, and basically Are Red, does NOT mean you can "Firebend". That's why there's all these civilians running around who are full of all kinds of colors in them, but you don't see most of them SUMMONING FREAKING DRAGONS. Not everyone with a Color can be a WIZARD of that Color.
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Is there anything natural about something that's static, though? Nature changes constantly on a molecular level. Thus I feel that bringing a change to the Theros pantheon in this instance is a action. Xenagos is taking something that we both agree to be a natural order, the static pantheon, and breaking the "stasis" by bringing the pantheon to a new stage of development. Or at least Xenagos is trying to do so by seeking godhood. It feels more than and adds a bit of depth to :symg:.
Lady Caleria had no problem trying to violently overthrow the Madaran Empire, and she is a character. I was going to use Thriss and Seton as my examples, though as far as I can recall their problem was less with the Cabal and more with the Mirari and whoever happened to wield it. So I mention Caleria to provide an example from the past where a character acted impulsively to overthrow an established order that felt natural to its people.
Xenegos is basically this. When he walked out of Theros he realized how small himself and the gods were to the great scheme of things. He realized he wanted to stay on Theros but knowing the gods are not true gods (creators of the universe, because a broader multiverse exists) he realized he could become one of then. And if he did he would be the greatest around him, and that's what the typical character wants.
His not black because black character have a less emotional approach to the lust for power.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
I strongly dislike the "it's not the true form of the colors" approach, since it narrows what the colours are, which is anything other than narrow. Green Phyrexia is Green, just a Green where some aspects are under developed - and even then, Beznir and co showcase that many of Green's aspects, like hollism and spirituality, are expressed vividly in Phyrexia. Phyrexia at most simply stresses some of the nastier sides of the colours, but it never, ever twists them: Red is still empathetic, White is still community, Blue is still knowledge, and they just happen to express darker sides (neglect, sewing, experimentation) instead of good sides (sympathy, kindness, progress).
Indeed, since this "Black is associated with the natural order of decay" seems to exist outside of Theros, one can assume it's a nice Black aspect. Manipulation and twisting therefore are just the nasty consequence. Likewise, Green is associated with ferocity and social darwinism... and I don't think there's any road byt the negative one to take here.
But Konda wasn't black, he was white. I think it's important that we view this not as a mistake of color identity in terms of the storyline but as speaking to the nature of villains in any color. A protagonist or neutral character represents their color's ideology in such a way as to demonstrate its possibility to promote virtue (in the former case) or to use consistency to make the ideology of the color more explicit (in the latter case). Villains however have made some kind of moral failing, as such, they may actually demonstrate inconsistency with their color (you could argue perhaps if they understood their color's ideology or its application to their context better they would instead be good guys) or the possibility of the color to promote moral failure (perhaps the colors themselves are fundamentally incoherent, or otherwise include contradictory elements).
When you put it that way, a grab for power might not be inherently black in all cases. Perhaps the fact that Xenagos does choose to remain on Theros indicates a non-black factor; if he wanted power for its own sake in the black fashion, then he would prefer to accumulate it infinitely and never settle for self-imposed constraints of an existing system.
Also. I think Xenagos' quote on Annul is about as green as it gets, personally. He's saying the order imposed by the gods is an illusory authority (U), its true nature being form of exploitation (B).
Now that I think about it, Annul does sound quite Green indeed.
WU Ephara, goddess of law/sanctity.
WB Athreos, god of spirits.
UB Phenax, god of deceit.
UR Keranos, god of storms.
BR Mogis, minotaur god, of slaughter.
BG Pharika, gorgon?, goddess of poison.
RW Iroas, centaur god of victory.
RG Xenagos, in the future, god of abandon.
GU Kruphix, god of time.
GW Karametra, goddess of the hearth
What intrigues me the most is how they will actually work, will they have devotion to two colors? Both? Either? Will they be enchantments too? Will they have weapons, ordeals and emissaries? Will those be multicolor too?
Too many questions!
I just really hope they don't **** it up again in giving us a great reanimator commander in WB, Athreos is Theros' Charon proxi, if he isn't designed around reanimation it'll be the biggest lost opportunity in the history of top down design.
There's already a thread for discussion the pantheon of Theros. Next time, please use the Search function to see if we're already actively discussing something before starting a new thread. I'm just merging these two threads.
~kaburi
Incoming u/b Horriblyunplayablemillgodbecauseotherubmechanicsare"unfun".
I can't wait because he's my favorite God.
If they want to keep it at five like the last bunch, they might be hybrid, but that would make them harder to design.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
What I actually expect is that they'll have some sort of devotion to multiple colors. The most straight-forward way to have gold devotion restrictions similar to the major gods would be "As long as your devotion to blue and/or red is less than NUMBER, CARDNAME isn't a creature. (Each in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to blue and/or red.)" That runs into some grokabliity issues, because people will be looking for actual symbols rather than or :symr:, and the actual ability text is messy because devotion to C uses the written word rather than the mana symbol.
It would almost have to be "As long as your devotion to blue and/or red is less than NUMBER, CARDNAME isn't a creature. (Each or in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to blue and/or red.)" That's quiet wordy.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
one hybrid mana symbol
indestructible
Turns on if your combined devotion to both colors is 5 or more (it counts Or rather than and, so its own mana symbol only counts for one)
one static effect that works in both colors
one activated ability that is multicolored
big booty
Example:
Karamtera, God of the Hearth
:SymGW:
Legendary Enchantment Creature-God
Indestructible
As long as your combined devotion to white and green is less than 5, Karametra isn't a creature.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, gain 1 life.
2GW: Return target creature card from a graveyard to its owner's hand.
5/4
Or something like that,
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Honestly, it's more likely that it wont be using hybrid. It'll probably be more along the line of 1UR.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
If they do combined devotion, I think hybrid would be prefered so they don't have to raise the devotion count.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Maybe they'll be easier to hit devotion for, and take a power hit to compensate? After all, everyone knows that it takes less effort to bring in weaker things
Tell that to the 1/1 virtual vanilla for eight mana in Scourge.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
So?
The static ability could easily do that, and then the activated could be gold if they didn't want to come up with 10 hybrid activated abilities.
Putting single or gold abilities on hybrid cards is entirely reasonable, the original guildmages were like that.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Being the god of lies and deceit, he might actually have a built-in counterspell/discard, mill has notthing to do with deceit.
Ex:
Keranos, God of StormsXUR
As long as your devotion to red is less than 3, Keranos isn't a creature
As long as your devotion to blue is less than 3, Keranos isn't a creature
(Ability)
This works similarly to the major gods, in that you need 4 symbols other than the God to activate him.(Major gods require 5, but give you 1, minor would require a total of 6, but give you 2). Another possibility is to have two abilites, each one linked to the devotion for one of the colors
Honestly, I think U/B are going to work well with mill, but won't be a mill card in itself, much like Wrexial, the Risen Deep.
Wrexial had awesome synergy with mill cards, but was not a source of milling himself. Being able to cast sorceries and instants from your opponents graveyard is quite a good ability, and very blue/black. The UB god could have something similar.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I don't think this will happen since it will be super confusing to new players. I had to read over this multiple times to decipher why the hybrid mana symbol wouldn't count for 2 devotion the way you have the card written and I still don't fully understand it.
Heck, at the Theros prerelease people were asking if a destroy enchantment card would kill an enchantment creature.
Standard
Modern
Living End Combo
Legacy
T.E.S.
TezzAffinity
Combo Elves
Belcher
Forgemaster Combo
High Tide
Solidarity
Merfolk
Burn
Goblins
UnLEDed Dredge
EDH/Commander
Olivia Voldaren
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Rosheen Meanderer
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Vela the Night-Clad
I thought it was bleedin' obvious that yes it does.
Enchantment removal is going to be very useful in Theros standard.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
This exactly. In my view, it is only possible for non-sentients to TRULY be Izzet or Gruul, WITHOUT being ultimately Jund or Grixis. Red just works that way when it comes to People (Legendary Creatures, Planeswalkers, humanoids) instead of animals/beasts/creatures.
Ral Zarek was hardcore Grixis in his IDEOLOGY, but his Weapons of choice were simply Red/Blue. Essentially I'm calling him out as too queasy to cast Murder, but he's only fooling himself when he doesn't admit that a Lightning Bolt might just as well be the same fate.
A character's color Alignment in MTG I think is a complex blend of both what they really are on the inside and their self-delusions about what they Think they are. This is basically the only way to prevent every actually complex character from being 5-colored, actually. Or...at least 3-colored.
Yes, fully developed characters always come across to me as at least 3-colored.
Elspeth- 5colored Good- more because she has the failings of every color than because of their strengths.
But contrast this to Bolas. How Ironic.
Ajani- Naya or Dark Naya. Ajani and Garruk are both Awesome. Very Law of the Jungle-y.
Ajani cares a little bit more about others than Garruk. They are both basically nice guys that
you just can't give B.S. to.
Nicol Bolas- 5colored Evil, because he has learned all the Power of Magic. At least at his height. But even though he has all the Strengths of the Colors, doesn't mean he has none of their weaknesses. He has a LOT of Weakness from Black and Blue, a very little of what Black would call "White's Weakness", the Weakness that Elspeth has more of than any other Planeswalker we've seen, but she isn't as good at channeling it into Strength like Ajani is.
I find it incredibly difficult to believe that there are spells Nicol Bolas *Can't* cast, but also very easy to believe that there are spells he *won't* or *is unlikely* to cast (Some kinds of Green Beasts seem like they'd be a favored tool for certain jobs, and I'm positive that resurrecting Tezzeret's mind involved White magic as well as Blue. He used Good for Evil means, because he's <-that-> much of a jerk.)
MODERN (post-Mending) Bolas might actually be limited in his nature now, but I still think his Library is basically 5-colored.
Sarkhan Vol- Jund, through and through. He's the Most Jund Person in the multiverse. He just barely might cast a White heal spell on himself or an arcane Blue spell to explore a Dragon's lair...maybe like to learn Draconic language? But just because he does that on the rarest of occasions, doesn't mean he's actually aligned- he just pragmatically casts what he needs to fuel his shamanism.
Tezzeret- 4 Non-Green (amoralist and has anger issues)
Jace- Esper or Esper + Green, depending on how Pantheist his worldview becomes after ascending to be The Guildpact. Kind of White Lantern-y?
Chandra- Black Red White
Liliana- Black White Green Evil (as amoralist as Tezzeret, wants to live forever, has more control over her Emotions. Green cares just a tad more about its own Survival than Black, but she couldn't give fewer damns what happens to the Trees.)
Garruk- 4 Non-Blue Pretty much an Ultimate Greek Tragic Hero, in my mind, where Strength is just as Virtuous as Compassion.
People need to read this fanfiction, though:
www.hpmor.com
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
I think you're misinterpreting the point of colour alignment. Again, having emotions does not make a person Red; it's living following Red's philosophy, by embracing your emotions and following your impulses, that a one is aligned to Red. There are, for example, characters that are, say, mono-Blue, but are driven by revenge (Ixidor) or have severe anger issues (Tezzeret), but are still not Red because of their emotions. Likewise, there are Black characters with some degree of conscience (pre-Innistrad Sorin, Toshiro, Xantcha), but that does not in any way make them White.
The fact that many cards have other colour activation pretty much means that colour use does not make you aligned with that colour.
Because he views himself as Simply a God of the Satyrs, and yet he is ignorant of how Black and Blue he is right now.
Also, the Oracle is lolz-wrong to say that its hard to be an Atheist in a world where the Gods are real. There's a branch of ideology called Satanist-Atheism, and on a Plane where the Gods are Real, it's probably very easy for Xenagos types go from Satanism (God Hating) to Make Atheism True (Dei-Genocide)
You don't have to 'disbelieve the existence of God' to be a certain shade that really only fits in with Atheism. Satan himself I would say is usually a Satanist-Atheist: portrayed as seeking the Destruction of God. Kind of Nihilist also. A lot of people are hatin' on Heliod and I would call those people Satanist-Atheists (in regards to the Pantheon of Theros, not in regards to the real world) whether they know it or not. They don't give blind Faith that Heliod is somehow implicitly a Perfect Superman Good Guy because they're aware of what he *could* be, because White is *able* to have personal character faults.
I think Elspeth Trusts Heliod, but hey, she's been wrong before.
The funny thing about Satanist-Atheism, is IF God is Flawed AND you can think of a Better Replacement, or some way to make the Universe no longer Need God, it's perfectly acceptable to claim that that's moral. But is the Potential for Flaw the same has Having Flaw? An unbroken crystal can be dropped and smashed- does that make it not whole?
If we SEE more of Heliod somehow portraying character flaws, like a mono White Orzhov Syndicatist or Azorius Senator, then maybe Xenagos actually has a POINT. That would be interesting, but I somehow don't feel that Wizards is going to deliberately portray Heliod as less than perfect.
THEY ALSO won't deliberately call him perfect either.
They will also, however, not pedestalize him any more than they've already done, and they might decide to show other Gods' opinion of him. They will attempt to show him as an Objective Embodiment of White, and leave the qualitative assessment up to us.
Honestly Xenagos is the most interesting character I've seen since Test of Metal, which was the best flavor since Agents of Artifice, which was the best flavor since Urza.
VERY excited about Born of the Gods and Journey into Nyx!
I do still think Xenagos is essentially Atheist-leaning, because he doesn't think the Gods should be revered as Gods, he considers them Just Beings like anyone else.....in his effort to prove that, he will inconsistently demand that he be treated as a God to make his point that they are no better than him....and that will lead to a downward spiral into believing himself to be Better than them.
"The gods exist but they are Not God" -using the word as a noun first, but then an adjective, see?
And, like, this is all pretty 'duh Duh DUH DUH XP' to even anyone who doesn't know anything except just what the Trailer shows xP
But I still find it really cool
People need to read this fanfiction, though:
www.hpmor.com
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.
(emphasis mine) Ah, but here I must say this: While in order to Truly be Blue-Aligned, or White Aligned, I think one must display habitual continuous traits, I think that *because* of What Black, Red, and Green ARE, that even one act based on Black, Red, and Green Motivations make you more Black, Red, or Green Aligned than one White Act or one Blue Act would make you White-or-Blue-aligned. I believe that your are spot-on in you attitude towards what makes Blue-Aligned "Blue" and White-Aligned "White"
Ixidor lived a Blue Life, and so he is Blue, but I think being motivated by Revenge made him either Red or Black as well.
Sorin was revealed to be Black-White, and he's ancient and likely just the same basic Nature on Innistrad as on Zendikar, the card's different mana-costs showing that he was using only Black Tools on Zendikar and that he used White Tools as well on Innistrad and that in fact his real nature is Black-White. Sorin doesn't help your argument.
Xantcha I don't recall ever using Magic because she was a Phyrexian newt. I'd have to look up old books...
I say that Color Alignment is a touchy complex issue, and I self-criticize what I just stated with this caveat:
Black is the hardest for me to figure out. Frankly, I'm SURE that "One Green Act" or "One Red Act" is enough to justify that you have a Red or Green Nature in you, even if it rarely overrides the Life Habits, the mere fact that it ever does once, proves it's enough a part of you 'to count'.
Whether BLACK Alignment behaves more like Green or Red alignment, or more like White or Blue Alignment, is a topic I'm willing to say is open for debate.
I'm glad you mentioned Sorin though, because that's an EXCELLENT way to prove that Mana Costs on cardboard representations indicate more 'what spells am I casting this week' than 'Who Am I?', and that's a big reason why cards change colors.
ALTHOUGH other Planeswalker cards "Color-Shift" (example: Ajani Vengeant, Sarkhan the Mad, Garruk the Veil-Cursed) to show an Actual time when they Transformed their Natures, I don't believe that Sorin was ''moved'' inwardly to ''become More White" than he already was, since he needed his PRE-MENDING power to create Avacyn in the first place.
Jace Beleren, for example, has been resoundingly Blue-Black-White in all of his depictions in the lore, mainly Blue and at a Crossroads when it comes to White and Black.....and *staying at that crossroads* and *continually* doing White and Black things enough that there isn't enough support to say he's not White: he's clearly in favor of Order and seeks Goodness.....and he's clearly Black: *frequently* motivated by Greed, his mere intelligence gives him the opportunity to Exploit Money and he uses that. and on occasion chooses Selfish Interests over the good of the many who need him. The only reason he is portrayed "Mono Blue" is because Blue is the only color he has MASTERY of. Blue is the color he can safely use as a Combat Tool in self-defense or aggression. He doesn't have enough self-knowledge or acceptance or experience with the conflicting eclipsing phases of his White and Black to actually form many spells with it, but analyzing his Character Nature reveals he has the other two Color Alignments, for sure.
Ajani's card on THEROS is bound to be Green-White, but I believe that Ajani's Nature has, as long as he's been Sparked (reference: Duel Decks and Alara Unbroken), been Green-White-Red, and Maybe he will cool down his Nature when he ages (reference: Goldmane card), but he's not there yet. Maybe he'll be there at the end of this Block?
Tezzeret will behave Red, and can be pushed to behave Red, consistently, against his better judgment. /lifetime spent becoming Blue-Black-White. Red is his Character Flaw, and he won't be rid of it, but his cards will never have Red Mana Symbols because he *can't use it*. Right now he's got ONLY the Weakness of Red with none of its Strength. That's why he can't Firebend, even though he's got enough anger for it: he has no -real- control of his anger, only the ability, by exerting will, to -suppress- it.
^That is why I am sure that Nicol Bolas can cast Regrowth and Wrath of God, even though his mana symbols are only Grixis. He *can* tap Plains and Forests, but *chooses* not to, most of the time, because his Blue/Black/Red attitude persuades him against it.
How his Black Alignment is affecting his comprehension-but-not-preference of the White and Green outlooks, I don't really know. Once AGAIN Black is......fascinatingly mysterious, and confuses my entire efforts to understand what a Color Alignment even *really* means. How curious!
This type of conversation could go on forever though.
I admit this: My reasoning I believe is almost completely sound, except that it has huge gaping holes in it when it comes to Black Actions versus Black Natures...I'm not very good at unraveling the mysteries of Black Alignment.
Going out on a wild limb, I suspect this means I HAVE Black Alignment, because I am a Mystery to myself, and if I Knew myself, I wouldn't still be myself.
Planeswalkers can philosophically be of more colors than they actually cast spells of. That is my conclusion. Since the very Color Wheel itself is based on making claims about sorting Philosophical Attitudes into Colors, then it doesn't hold water that someone can somehow Act Very Red without Being Red, but it *does* hold water that just because you Act Red all the time, and basically Are Red, does NOT mean you can "Firebend". That's why there's all these civilians running around who are full of all kinds of colors in them, but you don't see most of them SUMMONING FREAKING DRAGONS. Not everyone with a Color can be a WIZARD of that Color.
People need to read this fanfiction, though:
www.hpmor.com
I am probably every color-combination it is possible to be, though it's really hard to figure out what it would mean to be 4-colored....it doesn't seem logical to be 4-colored without being 5-colored.