Erebos is rather villainous but probably more due to the vanity of the gods in general that is a flaw in all of them rather than the intent to actually be evil. I'm surprised there are temples to him. Hades has no temples because it's fruitless to bother pleasing the god of death. He is the most stubborn of all and only Orpheus was able to move him with music. Beyond that you can just hope for a good afterlife. Perhaps that's the intent but IDK, they don't describe the Underworld enough (yet?) despite the fact it is a major setting in Greek myth. I wonder if Xenagos will go there despite being a god?
Do you think we'll get some more text on athreos in the next book? Also do you think that whole part with the oracle of phenax is going to lead up to something? about being careful what you wish for?
Erebos is rather villainous but probably more due to the vanity of the gods in general that is a flaw in all of them rather than the intent to actually be evil. I'm surprised there are temples to him. Hades has no temples because it's fruitless to bother pleasing the god of death. He is the most stubborn of all and only Orpheus was able to move him with music. Beyond that you can just hope for a good afterlife. Perhaps that's the intent but IDK, they don't describe the Underworld enough (yet?) despite the fact it is a major setting in Greek myth. I wonder if Xenagos will go there despite being a god?
Wow. That was dark. It was definitely good---the quality of writing was good, and the plot itself was more than solid. But that was the darkest ending I think Magic has had to a major storyline. It all feels very bleak, but it's such a pity that this is the end of the line for Elspeth. I wish this series was one part larger--I would have liked there to be more to the second half of the story, but it was told well. I liked that we were given some insights into the nature of the gods, and I did enjoy the hints of the larger world--we briefly see Kiora's quarrel with Thassa, which very much gives the feel of another story happening alongside this one. And I really enjoyed Elspeth accepting Erebos's ordeal instead of Thassa's, fighting what would be the harder battle in order to get what she so dearly desired. Her romance with Daxos, I felt, was well done for the amount of space they had to implement it, and it's more straightforward romance than we've seen recently in Magic. This plane really made Elspeth feel complete as a character, so it's a pity that Erebos did, in the end, claim his prize. However, her ignorance of the world was her undoing, as she did not clarify how she wished Daxos to return, and her cruel death is even crueler. Heliod proving once and for all that he is the biggest jerk in the multiverse was a nice touch in terms of the plot, though it further increases the sense of hopelessness that the ending of this book provides. This story felt very Greek, an apt representation of the Hero's Journey, and I suppose it's fitting it ends in utter tragedy. It also appears that Xenagos is gone for good as well. With a possible death count of two planeswalkers, one legend--Daxos--and the mutilation of Anax and the sacrifice of Cymede, this book is also one of the more bloody ones of recent years. With a count of three dead planeswalkers, the sense of danger is heightened for the rest, which is good. I would have liked some more--the story ends somewhat abruptly, and I do find myself wishing to know what happened afterwards, but this may be the domain of Uncharted Realms.
Wow. That was dark. It was definitely good---the quality of writing was good, and the plot itself was more than solid. But that was the darkest ending I think Magic has had to a major storyline. It all feels very bleak, but it's such a pity that this is the end of the line for Elspeth. I wish this series was one part larger--I would have liked there to be more to the second half of the story, but it was told well. I liked that we were given some insights into the nature of the gods, and I did enjoy the hints of the larger world--we briefly see Kiora's quarrel with Thassa, which very much gives the feel of another story happening alongside this one. And I really enjoyed Elspeth accepting Erebos's ordeal instead of Thassa's, fighting what would be the harder battle in order to get what she so dearly desired. Her romance with Daxos, I felt, was well done for the amount of space they had to implement it, and it's more straightforward romance than we've seen recently in Magic. This plane really made Elspeth feel complete as a character, so it's a pity that Erebos did, in the end, claim his prize. However, her ignorance of the world was her undoing, as she did not clarify how she wished Daxos to return, and her cruel death is even crueler. Heliod proving once and for all that he is the biggest jerk in the multiverse was a nice touch in terms of the plot, though it further increases the sense of hopelessness that the ending of this book provides. This story felt very Greek, an apt representation of the Hero's Journey, and I suppose it's fitting it ends in utter tragedy. It also appears that Xenagos is gone for good as well. With a possible death count of two planeswalkers, one legend--Daxos--and the mutilation of Anax and the sacrifice of Cymede, this book is also one of the more bloody ones of recent years. With a count of three dead planeswalkers, the sense of danger is heightened for the rest, which is good. I would have liked some more--the story ends somewhat abruptly, and I do find myself wishing to know what happened afterwards, but this may be the domain of Uncharted Realms.
Say what now?
So there were no Plane shattering scenarios and stuff? Did the Gods stay as they are?
In regards to the deaths, that is very brave of them to do if you kind of think of it (though sort of saddened with Daxos, Anax and Cymede). Now, this hopefully does not trigger what MaRo mentioned where "they can learn a lot of things with Western Comics" and they end up reviving either Xenagos or Elspeth in the future; coz that'd be darned sucky.
Preparing the popcorn on the possible outcry of the Gameplay peeps upon finding out about the canon deaths.
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Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
Wow. That was dark. It was definitely good---the quality of writing was good, and the plot itself was more than solid. But that was the darkest ending I think Magic has had to a major storyline. It all feels very bleak, but it's such a pity that this is the end of the line for Elspeth. I wish this series was one part larger--I would have liked there to be more to the second half of the story, but it was told well. I liked that we were given some insights into the nature of the gods, and I did enjoy the hints of the larger world--we briefly see Kiora's quarrel with Thassa, which very much gives the feel of another story happening alongside this one. And I really enjoyed Elspeth accepting Erebos's ordeal instead of Thassa's, fighting what would be the harder battle in order to get what she so dearly desired. Her romance with Daxos, I felt, was well done for the amount of space they had to implement it, and it's more straightforward romance than we've seen recently in Magic. This plane really made Elspeth feel complete as a character, so it's a pity that Erebos did, in the end, claim his prize. However, her ignorance of the world was her undoing, as she did not clarify how she wished Daxos to return, and her cruel death is even crueler. Heliod proving once and for all that he is the biggest jerk in the multiverse was a nice touch in terms of the plot, though it further increases the sense of hopelessness that the ending of this book provides. This story felt very Greek, an apt representation of the Hero's Journey, and I suppose it's fitting it ends in utter tragedy. It also appears that Xenagos is gone for good as well. With a possible death count of two planeswalkers, one legend--Daxos--and the mutilation of Anax and the sacrifice of Cymede, this book is also one of the more bloody ones of recent years. With a count of three dead planeswalkers, the sense of danger is heightened for the rest, which is good. I would have liked some more--the story ends somewhat abruptly, and I do find myself wishing to know what happened afterwards, but this may be the domain of Uncharted Realms.
Say what now?
So there were no Plane shattering scenarios and stuff? Did the Gods stay as they are?
In regards to the deaths, that is very brave of them to do if you kind of think of it (though sort of saddened with Daxos, Anax and Cymede). Now, this hopefully does not trigger what MaRo mentioned where "they can learn a lot of things with Western Comics" and they end up reviving either Xenagos or Elspeth in the future; coz that'd be darned sucky.
Preparing the popcorn on the possible outcry of the Gameplay peeps upon finding out about the canon deaths.
Anax appears to be alive, if badly wounded, so there's that, at least. I also wanted to point out how perfect the Ordeal of Ereboswas for the culmination of Elspeth's storyline. It reminded me of the test to become Accepted in the Wheel of Time, if anyone is familiar with that, and it showed that she truly has grown as a person, and could finally put past her yearning for stability and home, and stand her ground to truly become the hero that she could be. The battle with Xenagos is secondary to that in my eyes--Elspeth only had to fight in that ordeal, and we know she is good at that. The ordeal tried the parts of her soul we watched her succumb to in Alara and New Phyrexia, and she emerged stronger than it all. The Hercules/Heracles reference with Elspeth and Daxos was an interesting thing to see, and I'm glad they were able to sneak in a reference to that myth somewhere in the block, even if it was a heartbreaking one.
To anyone on the fence about reading this, I definitely recommend it.
Ugh, I'm sooooooooooo disappointed that they 'killed' Elspeth! Or rather, I'm more disappointed at the wasted potential of her story.
I guess that with the idea of a Greek tragedy, this shouldn't be wholly unexpected, but I really loved Elspeth as a character. We've waited for SO LONG for her to become a hero instead of not confronting her problems; and just when we think she finally has her moment, the reason she makes the ultimate sacrifice turns out to be for nothing, since Daxos is a returned.
I can accept tragic endings, but this one doesn't feel 'right'; considering all the years and years they took to develop Elspeth's arc. Tragic endings can be cathartic as well, but this one didn't do it for me at all.
I'm holding out hope that she's not gone for good; but even if she isn't, it'll be years before we hear from her again, given how slow Magic is at telling the stories of its various characters. :\
This literally just felt like years of buildup for nothing.
The one thing that really irked me about the story while I was reading it is the same thing they've been doing for a while in regards to Ajani.
They've set him up as a sage mentor character, which is fine... but it's GARBAGE when you have the characters who taught HIM HOW TO DO THINGS treating him that way!
Elspeth defers to him like he is vastly more experienced than she, but Bant was literally the second place he flopped in at. Their relationship was centered around Ajani learning from ELSPETH, not the other way around.
I can accept that he's well travelled. It's been a while since the Conflux after all, but it's just hollow to have your characters act contrary to their history.
The one thing that really irked me about the story while I was reading it is the same thing they've been doing for a while in regards to Ajani.
They've set him up as a sage mentor character, which is fine... but it's GARBAGE when you have the characters who taught HIM HOW TO DO THINGS treating him that way!
Elspeth defers to him like he is vastly more experienced than she, but Bant was literally the second place he flopped in at. Their relationship was centered around Ajani learning from ELSPETH, not the other way around.
I can accept that he's well travelled. It's been a while since the Conflux after all, but it's just hollow to have your characters act contrary to their history.
I don't think it's necessarily out of character. Besides the timeline being fuzzy (how quickly do Leonin mature? Because the Ajani UR has him having met Brimaaz as a cub), and I haven't read the new ebook yet, but Ajani is so much more centered than many of the other characters (post-Vengeant). I can see him being still being a mentor to Elsepth despite Elspeth teaching him. He appeared with her Armor when she was most lost and helped set her on a quest, which pulled her back together post-Alara. I'll revise my opinion after reading the book.
I think what really gets me is the extent to which Elspeth's death was meaningless. She didn't die a heroic death fighting Xenagos, nor did she die a tragic death. Heliod simply killed her for being a planeswalker--and then let Ajani stroll out with her corpse. Apparently, leonin planeswalkers don't count.
Her death achieved nothing, and was completely unrelated to her story up to this point. A brief, clumsy romance is her only real tie to Theros. She didn't die fighting Phyrexians or defending Ajani. She was executed for the sin of planeswalking--something she herself preferred not to do.
I wasn't expecting to say this, but the ending of The Secretist is more emotionally fulfilling than watching Elspeth's ruin. She could have been heroic or tragic. Instead, she is reduced to being pathetic.
Wow. That ending made me feel salty as hell. There was just scumbag stuff happening left and right. Elspeth getting stabbed by Heliod with the weapon she has used forever and her wish for Daxos returned (more irony) granted in a perverse way left a bad taste in my mouth. Can I get a part 3 where Ajani kills Heliod and Erebos? Ugh.
Nylea and Thassa being shown in a compassionate manner was nice though. Nylea's concern for Daxos made the ending that much more unbearable when she found him. It was cool that she was actively trying to stop Xenagos in Nyx because she cared about her animals so much.
Kiora is a huge dick and it was pretty cool that Ajani picked up on her being sus almost instantly. Thankfully, based Thassa was there to guide Elspeth and Ajani to the temple and offered Elspeth the easy mode ordeal to get into Nyx (DAMN IT ELSPETH YOU MORON).
I really hope that Thassa hard-bodies Kiora. She needs comeuppance badly and I can't stand futile outcomes. If Kiora wins, she learns absolutely nothing and when she gets back to Zendikar she gets to see Arixmethes, the city-Kraken get served up as fried calamari rings to the Eldrazi Titans. Then again, Kiora could end up dead in that outcome so part of me hopes that if Kiora wins, she dies in Zendikar to the Eldrazi. Bottom line, I hope Thassa wins. She's too cool and smart to lose to that upstart and neowalkers need to learn humility. I still can't shake the plot armor outcome though because "herp-derp Kiora is planeswalker."
Also, yay that scumbag Xenagos is dead! Nylea did more damage that I thought. Based Huntress God is based.
All in all, part 2 was decent but there were hella typos and that ending is unsettling.
Is it just me, or does the whole Daxos/Returned thing reek of Phenax? Phenax is the god of the returned and Erebos isn't too fond of them. The cruel "monkey's paw wish gone wrong" thing seems a lot more like Phenax's style, as is tricking elspeth into murdering Daxos. Not to mention it was his initially his priest who elspeth spoke to and his priest that drove her through her worst fears (even though it said he was now a priest of Erebos)
Talk about a crappy way to go... Maybe I'm just being simple-minded, but I would have definitely prefer a more happy ending... This was just sad all around... Elspeth and many others die for nothing, the gods stay in power, being as dickish as they were before... At least Xenagos is dead...
The second half felt a little rushed, reminded me of the DGM novel. Making three novels would have made more sense. Still, the writing and characters were a lot better than for the RTR novels. But man, that ending...
I found it cool that Nylea had a hand in causing Xenagos's death. The arrowhead from when she shot Xenagos was lodged in his chest which exploded like a grenade when the Godsend came in contact with it. Xenagos was arrogant enough to not extract the arrowhead from his chest which caused his demise. The art on Deicide is a bit misleading after the novel's explanation. Elspeth was almost dead when she threw the Godsend and the art has her using Jump and landing spearpoint first onto Xenagos.
Caranthir, Amazon.com seems to have reuploaded the page. I had to re-pre-order it... search for it again on Amazon and purchase it. I had a similar problem.
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I'm not completely convinced that Elspeth is gone for good, although it's certainly a distinct possibility. If she did die, it wasn't made nearly as explicitly as Venser's death was, which seems to leave open the possibility of her surviving with Ajani via Planeswalking.
I actually really like Kiora a lot in the book. She's a bit mischievous, and it's kind of funny how excited she gets from finding the lost city and that her and Thassa are fighting over sea monsters. I hope we can see more about the conflict in an Uncharted Realms article
Is it just me, or does the whole Daxos/Returned thing reek of Phenax? Phenax is the god of the returned and Erebos isn't too fond of them. The cruel "monkey's paw wish gone wrong" thing seems a lot more like Phenax's style, as is tricking elspeth into murdering Daxos. Not to mention it was his initially his priest who elspeth spoke to and his priest that drove her through her worst fears (even though it said he was now a priest of Erebos)
This REALLY bugged me as well. I think it was Daxos who said that all Erebos does is lie? What the heck? That's Phenax's schtick! Phenax, as we've learned from flavour text, is all about the 'get-what-you-asked-but-not-the-way-you-expected'. After all the work they've put into making Erebos not your typical scumbag lord of the underworld, they just make him a huge jerk in the books, which disappointed me.
In 'Emonberry Red'; Erebos was depicted in such a cool way. As if he genuinely felt sympathy for these lovers' plight, and is helping them out in the only way he can. None of this deception / selfish nonsense.
But yeah, again, it was just sooooo stupid that Elspeth died for NOTHING. If you're gonna kill off a beloved character, at least have them die doing something awesome. More than Heliod's wound, it was her pact with Erebos that truly 'killed' her, and that was literally for nothing, since Daxos came back as a Returned.
I keep getting disappointed in how Wizards does all this AMAZING world-building, but I feel like they miss opportunities with the stories they tell in these worlds; or how some of the novel lore conflicts with world-building articles on their website.
The only way they could have made the ending leave a worst taste in my mouth was if they raped Elspeth while Ajani had to watch.
First off there were numerious spelling and grammar errors in the book and the entire thing felt like a detailed summary not an actual book, especially towards the end. 'She saw Ajani leaving' you think he would have at least said something first. I get that they wanted to have a dark ending but it made Elspeth into a laughing stock of a character. She's been manipulated into serving an uncarring evil the types she'd been trying to fight against for so long. The worst part of it all was that she accepted it. That she thought Heliod was still a good guy at the end. It sickens me the extent to which they destoryed her character and humilated her after the end. There was nothing noble in her death. No meaning. No sacrifice. Just the act itself.
Her journey was a failure. As a hero, Elspeth was a failure. As a fanfiction piece...it was alright.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Do you mean if xenagos dies?
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
That's... what I use to read it and it's working fine for me. Did you preorder?
I shall read post-haste.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
Say what now?
So there were no Plane shattering scenarios and stuff? Did the Gods stay as they are?
In regards to the deaths, that is very brave of them to do if you kind of think of it (though sort of saddened with Daxos, Anax and Cymede). Now, this hopefully does not trigger what MaRo mentioned where "they can learn a lot of things with Western Comics" and they end up reviving either Xenagos or Elspeth in the future; coz that'd be darned sucky.
Preparing the popcorn on the possible outcry of the Gameplay peeps upon finding out about the canon deaths.
Serra Stan - Angel Enthusiast - Garruk and Tyvar thirsty follower - Flavor and Art Enthusiast
To anyone on the fence about reading this, I definitely recommend it.
Ugh, I'm sooooooooooo disappointed that they 'killed' Elspeth! Or rather, I'm more disappointed at the wasted potential of her story.
I guess that with the idea of a Greek tragedy, this shouldn't be wholly unexpected, but I really loved Elspeth as a character. We've waited for SO LONG for her to become a hero instead of not confronting her problems; and just when we think she finally has her moment, the reason she makes the ultimate sacrifice turns out to be for nothing, since Daxos is a returned.
I can accept tragic endings, but this one doesn't feel 'right'; considering all the years and years they took to develop Elspeth's arc. Tragic endings can be cathartic as well, but this one didn't do it for me at all.
I'm holding out hope that she's not gone for good; but even if she isn't, it'll be years before we hear from her again, given how slow Magic is at telling the stories of its various characters. :\
This literally just felt like years of buildup for nothing.
They've set him up as a sage mentor character, which is fine... but it's GARBAGE when you have the characters who taught HIM HOW TO DO THINGS treating him that way!
Elspeth defers to him like he is vastly more experienced than she, but Bant was literally the second place he flopped in at. Their relationship was centered around Ajani learning from ELSPETH, not the other way around.
I can accept that he's well travelled. It's been a while since the Conflux after all, but it's just hollow to have your characters act contrary to their history.
I don't think it's necessarily out of character. Besides the timeline being fuzzy (how quickly do Leonin mature? Because the Ajani UR has him having met Brimaaz as a cub), and I haven't read the new ebook yet, but Ajani is so much more centered than many of the other characters (post-Vengeant). I can see him being still being a mentor to Elsepth despite Elspeth teaching him. He appeared with her Armor when she was most lost and helped set her on a quest, which pulled her back together post-Alara. I'll revise my opinion after reading the book.
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Her death achieved nothing, and was completely unrelated to her story up to this point. A brief, clumsy romance is her only real tie to Theros. She didn't die fighting Phyrexians or defending Ajani. She was executed for the sin of planeswalking--something she herself preferred not to do.
I wasn't expecting to say this, but the ending of The Secretist is more emotionally fulfilling than watching Elspeth's ruin. She could have been heroic or tragic. Instead, she is reduced to being pathetic.
Nylea and Thassa being shown in a compassionate manner was nice though. Nylea's concern for Daxos made the ending that much more unbearable when she found him. It was cool that she was actively trying to stop Xenagos in Nyx because she cared about her animals so much.
Kiora is a huge dick and it was pretty cool that Ajani picked up on her being sus almost instantly. Thankfully, based Thassa was there to guide Elspeth and Ajani to the temple and offered Elspeth the easy mode ordeal to get into Nyx (DAMN IT ELSPETH YOU MORON).
I really hope that Thassa hard-bodies Kiora. She needs comeuppance badly and I can't stand futile outcomes. If Kiora wins, she learns absolutely nothing and when she gets back to Zendikar she gets to see Arixmethes, the city-Kraken get served up as fried calamari rings to the Eldrazi Titans. Then again, Kiora could end up dead in that outcome so part of me hopes that if Kiora wins, she dies in Zendikar to the Eldrazi. Bottom line, I hope Thassa wins. She's too cool and smart to lose to that upstart and neowalkers need to learn humility. I still can't shake the plot armor outcome though because "herp-derp Kiora is planeswalker."
Also, yay that scumbag Xenagos is dead! Nylea did more damage that I thought. Based Huntress God is based.
All in all, part 2 was decent but there were hella typos and that ending is unsettling.
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Talk about a crappy way to go... Maybe I'm just being simple-minded, but I would have definitely prefer a more happy ending... This was just sad all around... Elspeth and many others die for nothing, the gods stay in power, being as dickish as they were before... At least Xenagos is dead...
The second half felt a little rushed, reminded me of the DGM novel. Making three novels would have made more sense. Still, the writing and characters were a lot better than for the RTR novels. But man, that ending...
"Kiora is the Aquaman of planeswalkers."
"Useless and everyone pretends to like her?"
I actually really like Kiora a lot in the book. She's a bit mischievous, and it's kind of funny how excited she gets from finding the lost city and that her and Thassa are fighting over sea monsters. I hope we can see more about the conflict in an Uncharted Realms article
EDIT: I also think that Xenagos may have survived
In 'Emonberry Red'; Erebos was depicted in such a cool way. As if he genuinely felt sympathy for these lovers' plight, and is helping them out in the only way he can. None of this deception / selfish nonsense.
But yeah, again, it was just sooooo stupid that Elspeth died for NOTHING. If you're gonna kill off a beloved character, at least have them die doing something awesome. More than Heliod's wound, it was her pact with Erebos that truly 'killed' her, and that was literally for nothing, since Daxos came back as a Returned.
I keep getting disappointed in how Wizards does all this AMAZING world-building, but I feel like they miss opportunities with the stories they tell in these worlds; or how some of the novel lore conflicts with world-building articles on their website.
Her journey was a failure. As a hero, Elspeth was a failure. As a fanfiction piece...it was alright.