I'm not sure Wizards should be going for that in the Theros block. Greek men already suffer from a stereotype (from antiquity philosophers reputed for their love of young boys to nowadays and a million of - regardless of gender preference - sodomy jokes), and Magic isn't a place to mock them.
Can't wait for some pro-traditional-family associations and the like to call out on the game *again* like it's a product of the devil and so on. All this in the same week than the release of GTA V. Bad week to be a grumpy conservative indeed.
It was kinda cool being that kid with his satanic cardgame. The same can't be said for being that kid with that gay cardgame.
Supporting the gay community is fine. I don't believe Magic is the way to do it.
Moderator Action: Infraction for Inappropriate Language
Referring to Magic as a "gay card game" in a negative way is intentionally misusing "gay" as a pejorative and violates the forum rules.
~kaburi
It was kinda cool being that kid with his satanic cardgame. The same can't be said for being that kid with that gay cardgame.
Supporting the gay community is fine. I don't believe Magic is the way to do it.
On the other hand, Demonic references were rampant in Magic. Here we speak of some reference on one card, so calling it a "gay game" would be overly exaggerated. When Earthbind or Invoke Prejudice were around, the game was not referred as "tentacle abuse" or "white supremacist". But hten again I agree the player base was much smaller and niche-oriented than now.
It was kinda cool being that kid with his satanic cardgame. The same can't be said for being that kid with that gay cardgame.
Supporting the gay community is fine. I don't believe Magic is the way to do it.
So you don't believe it's okay to depict gay characters in MTG? Does one card with a hint at a gay relationship suddenly turn MTG into a "gay cardgame".
What's next, no people of other races?
Seriously, this is verging on homophobic.
Moderator Action: Warning for Flaming
Calling a user homophobic, racist, or any other invective is considered flaming. Please don't do this.
~kaburi
I really don't understand the relevance of having to have homosexuality be a part of everything we see/do in life. In situations like the one described by the OP it to me seems like something shoe-horned in to please a minority of the fanbase that has been asking for it.
I don't feel something that is not visible and does not further a plot like gender preference is something that needs to be labelled on every character or needs to be pushed into every form of media.
There was an author who's name I can't remember was asked during an interview why they didn't have any homosexual characters in their series and the author replied with: "Of course I have homosexual characters in my books but since there is no difference between someone who is gay or straight other than the gender of the person they love, why do you feel the need to separate and label these characters from the rest?"
Furthermore and this isn't trolling, I'm serious. If WotC decided to make a card that symbolized a relationship between a leonin and a human would people decry that WotC is trying to promote bestiality? People are probably going to claim that I'm spewing vitriol but thats not the case as I'm all for equality among sexual preference. I just honestly don't understand and this doesn't really excite me probably because of that.
I don't feel something that is not visible and does not further a plot like gender preference is something that needs to be labelled on every character or needs to be pushed into every form of media.
.
I'm sure there has been _plenty_ of card references to heterosexual relationships that have not furthered the plot.
It's high time this has happened, but you're right about something though: It shouldn't be that big a deal.
The fact that this has never happened before is the problem here. If a gay character or gay love depiction happened every once in a while then it would not seem so out of the ordinary would it. It has no implication on a story and becomes a "so what?" kind of thing and most importantly it cultivates acceptance.
I really don't understand the relevance of having to have homosexuality be a part of everything we see/do in life. In situations like the one described by the OP it to me seems like something shoe-horned in to please a minority of the fanbase that has been asking for it.
I don't feel something that is not visible and does not further a plot like gender preference is something that needs to be labelled on every character or needs to be pushed into every form of media.
There was an author who's name I can't remember was asked during an interview why they didn't have any homosexual characters in their series and the author replied with: "Of course I have homosexual characters in my books but since there is no difference between someone who is gay or straight other than the gender of the person they love, why do you feel the need to separate and label these characters from the rest?"
Furthermore and this isn't trolling, I'm serious. If WotC decided to make a card that symbolized a relationship between a leonin and a human would people decry that WotC is trying to promote bestiality? People are probably going to claim that I'm spewing vitriol but thats not the case as I'm all for equality among sexual preference. I just honestly don't understand and this doesn't really excite me probably because of that.
I just love mindless hypocrites who whine about "you don't need to shove homosexuality" while having absolutely no issues with heterosexual romantic relationships. Pray tell, what relevance did Serra and Ferox's relationship had to the overall plot? None. What relevance did Toshi and whats-her-name had? None. What relevance did Jace's interest in Emmara had? None, absolutely fricking no relevance given that if anything it only made the plot slower and more awkward.
Visibility is an extremely relevant part of social progress; this is why pride parades exist. And the "homosexual character for the sake of looking progressive" thing honestly is an extremely, extremely stupid statement considering the rarity of such events; name me one LGBT character written for LGBT appeal who hasn't been a fleshed out character beyond "s/he's gay". The only LGBT characters that I can think of that have been 100% shallow are camp gay stereotypes meant to be offensive comedy.
Moderation Action: Infraction for Flaming
Please don't call other users "mindless hypocrits". That's flaming, plain and simple.
People need to try not take everything as an assault against gay culture.
The name calling toward people as "mindless hypocrites" or "verging on homophobic" is pretty disgusting. If you can't express yourselves like adults I don't think the LGBT community wants you speaking for them.
I just love mindless hypocrites who whine about "you don't need to shove homosexuality" while having absolutely no issues with heterosexual romantic relationships. Pray tell, what relevance did Serra and Ferox's relationship had to the overall plot? None. What relevance did Toshi and whats-her-name had? None. What relevance did Jace's interest in Emmara had? None, absolutely fricking no relevance given that if anything it only made the plot slower and more awkward.
Visibility is an extremely relevant part of social progress; this is why pride parades exist. And the "homosexual character for the sake of looking progressive" thing honestly is an extremely, extremely stupid statement considering the rarity of such events; name me one LGBT character written for LGBT appeal who hasn't been a fleshed out character beyond "s/he's gay". The only LGBT characters that I can think of that have been 100% shallow are camp gay stereotypes meant to be offensive comedy.
This is why people are afraid to post an opinion that is even a shade different than those of other people. People become aggressive in an almost mob-mentality in the name of social progress and it honestly scares me.
I never stated that there were not heterosexual relationships that never furthered the plot either but you automatically assumed that I have. I never read any of the Magic novels that had those relationships in it so I can't say for certain if they had any relevance or not.
Let me answer your question with a question. What is the difference between a straight person and a gay person beyond the fact that one is gay and the other is straight? If you want an example of a fully fleshed out character that is either bi or gay how about...
Dumbledore in Harry Potter
Jack Harkness in Doctor Who/Torchwood (One of my favorite characters by the way.)
Armand in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles.
Lestat in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles.
Madison and Sakura in the Japanese version of Cardcaptors.
Haruka and Michiru in the Japanese version of Sailor Moon.
Willow and Tara on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Graham in Best Exotic Marigold Hotel.
Irene Adler in Sherlock.
Eddie Dane in Miller's Crossing
David Fisher in Six Feet Under.
People need to try not take everything as an assault against gay culture.
The name calling toward people as "mindless hypocrites" or "verging on homophobic" is pretty disgusting. If you can't express yourselves like adults I don't think the LGBT community wants you speaking for them.
I hardly claimed to be speaking for the LBGT community. This is my individual opinion and if people are going to make homophobic statements or arguments then by jove I will most certainly point that out! There is hardly anything overly sensitive about this.
I find people sitting on the sidelines willing to tolerate such things as "pretty disgusting".
I hardly claimed to be speaking for the LBGT community. This is my individual opinion and if people are going to make homophobic statements or arguments then by jove I will most certainly point that out! There is hardly anything overly sensitive about this.
I find people sitting on the sidelines willing to tolerate such things as "pretty disgusting".
Your definition of "homophobic" is a bit too lax and you should be careful when throwing out words that have negative meanings.
No, I disagree with you. When someone implies that Magic should not have gay characters in it then that is most definitely extremely homophobic.
So _you_ need to revise your meaning of the word.
So this opens up any Magic vendor/player in Russia to face fines/prison/ or deportation under their laws.
No I dont think it should because unlike western Europe and America this issue can end up putting you in conflict with the laws of more then a few countries.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't you see that the whole aim of Moderators is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make infractions literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it. Every concept that can ever be needed, will be expressed by exactly one word, with its meaning rigidly defined and all its subsidiary meanings rubbed out and forgotten.
Stop looking to get offended by things and you'll stop noticing homophobic "implications" that don't exist.
If you don't think this sentence "Supporting the gay community is fine. I don't believe Magic is the way to do it." is homophobic then you need to revise your meaning of the word. It directly says that the author thinks it is not fine to support the gay community via Magic and prefers it to be less visible so that they don't have to play a "gay cardgame" (also in the same post).
So this opens up any Magic vendor/player in Russia to face fines/prison/ or deportation under their laws.
No I dont think it should because unlike western Europe and America this issue can end up putting you in conflict with the laws of more then a few countries.
That is an entirely different issue, but I'll respond anyways.
I grew up in apartheid South Africa. We couldn't get certain products and artists wouldn't release music here - it added to the social pressure from the world to show the people of South Africa that the racist policies of our government had no place in this world. It played a very significant role in making the white middleclass vote against our apartheid government in the referendum.
Not selling Magic cards in Russia because of their policies and depicting more homosexual characters is a very very good thing and contributes to the international pressure of not approving their policies.
If you don't think this sentence "Supporting the gay community is fine. I don't believe Magic is the way to do it." is homophobic then you need to revise your meaning of the word. It directly says that the author thinks it is not fine to support the gay community via Magic and prefers it to be less visible so that they don't have to play a "gay cardgame" (also in the same post).
How much more clear can you get?
That's one hell of an extrapolation. Do you work in politics? Because that kind of word twisting is impressive.
Seriously, if you think THAT is homophobia than I'm not sure how you function in daily life. Because that was an incredibly tame and rational statement. Not wanting something shoved everywhere because it seems to devalue it is most definitely not the same as blatant homosexual fear/hatred.
You pretty much need to step down from your imaginary moral high horse.
That's one hell of an extrapolation. Do you work in politics? Because that kind of word twisting is impressive.
Seriously, if you think THAT is homophobia than I'm not sure how you function in daily life. Because that was an incredibly tame and rational statement. Not wanting something shoved everywhere because it seems to devalue it is most definitely not the same as blatant homosexual fear/hatred.
You pretty much need to step down from your imaginary moral high horse.
Ok now this is just flaming. I'm stopping right here and asking mods to step in.
Telling you that you're wrong is most definitely not flaming. Should people report you for insulting others by calling them homophobes?
You just don't stop do you? We could go back and forth saying you're wrong to each other for pages.
If someone is being homophobic then they are being homophobic - this is not an insult but stating fact. If they feel insulted they are welcome to report me instead of you championing their statements for pages.
This thread has gone completely off the rails, so I'm temporarily locking it to give everyone some space to cool off. I'll unlock it after we've all had a chance to calm down.
In the future, if you disagree with what someone says in a thread here, DO NOT FLAME THEM. DO NOT TROLL THEM. There are constructive ways to express dissenting opinions that don't involve insulting or baiting other posters.
What stereotype? That was their actual culture.
It was kinda cool being that kid with his satanic cardgame. The same can't be said for being that kid with that gay cardgame.
Supporting the gay community is fine. I don't believe Magic is the way to do it.
Moderator Action: Infraction for Inappropriate Language
Referring to Magic as a "gay card game" in a negative way is intentionally misusing "gay" as a pejorative and violates the forum rules.
~kaburi
“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.”
—Volrath
Or more precisely this
On the other hand, Demonic references were rampant in Magic. Here we speak of some reference on one card, so calling it a "gay game" would be overly exaggerated. When Earthbind or Invoke Prejudice were around, the game was not referred as "tentacle abuse" or "white supremacist". But hten again I agree the player base was much smaller and niche-oriented than now.
So you don't believe it's okay to depict gay characters in MTG? Does one card with a hint at a gay relationship suddenly turn MTG into a "gay cardgame".
What's next, no people of other races?
Seriously, this is verging on homophobic.
Moderator Action: Warning for Flaming
Calling a user homophobic, racist, or any other invective is considered flaming. Please don't do this.
~kaburi
I don't feel something that is not visible and does not further a plot like gender preference is something that needs to be labelled on every character or needs to be pushed into every form of media.
There was an author who's name I can't remember was asked during an interview why they didn't have any homosexual characters in their series and the author replied with: "Of course I have homosexual characters in my books but since there is no difference between someone who is gay or straight other than the gender of the person they love, why do you feel the need to separate and label these characters from the rest?"
Furthermore and this isn't trolling, I'm serious. If WotC decided to make a card that symbolized a relationship between a leonin and a human would people decry that WotC is trying to promote bestiality? People are probably going to claim that I'm spewing vitriol but thats not the case as I'm all for equality among sexual preference. I just honestly don't understand and this doesn't really excite me probably because of that.
I'm sure there has been _plenty_ of card references to heterosexual relationships that have not furthered the plot.
It's high time this has happened, but you're right about something though: It shouldn't be that big a deal.
The fact that this has never happened before is the problem here. If a gay character or gay love depiction happened every once in a while then it would not seem so out of the ordinary would it. It has no implication on a story and becomes a "so what?" kind of thing and most importantly it cultivates acceptance.
I just love mindless hypocrites who whine about "you don't need to shove homosexuality" while having absolutely no issues with heterosexual romantic relationships. Pray tell, what relevance did Serra and Ferox's relationship had to the overall plot? None. What relevance did Toshi and whats-her-name had? None. What relevance did Jace's interest in Emmara had? None, absolutely fricking no relevance given that if anything it only made the plot slower and more awkward.
Visibility is an extremely relevant part of social progress; this is why pride parades exist. And the "homosexual character for the sake of looking progressive" thing honestly is an extremely, extremely stupid statement considering the rarity of such events; name me one LGBT character written for LGBT appeal who hasn't been a fleshed out character beyond "s/he's gay". The only LGBT characters that I can think of that have been 100% shallow are camp gay stereotypes meant to be offensive comedy.
Moderation Action: Infraction for Flaming
Please don't call other users "mindless hypocrits". That's flaming, plain and simple.
~kaburi
The name calling toward people as "mindless hypocrites" or "verging on homophobic" is pretty disgusting. If you can't express yourselves like adults I don't think the LGBT community wants you speaking for them.
This is why people are afraid to post an opinion that is even a shade different than those of other people. People become aggressive in an almost mob-mentality in the name of social progress and it honestly scares me.
I never stated that there were not heterosexual relationships that never furthered the plot either but you automatically assumed that I have. I never read any of the Magic novels that had those relationships in it so I can't say for certain if they had any relevance or not.
Let me answer your question with a question. What is the difference between a straight person and a gay person beyond the fact that one is gay and the other is straight? If you want an example of a fully fleshed out character that is either bi or gay how about...
Dumbledore in Harry Potter
Jack Harkness in Doctor Who/Torchwood (One of my favorite characters by the way.)
Armand in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles.
Lestat in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles.
Madison and Sakura in the Japanese version of Cardcaptors.
Haruka and Michiru in the Japanese version of Sailor Moon.
Willow and Tara on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Graham in Best Exotic Marigold Hotel.
Irene Adler in Sherlock.
Eddie Dane in Miller's Crossing
David Fisher in Six Feet Under.
Those are off the top of my head by the way.
I hardly claimed to be speaking for the LBGT community. This is my individual opinion and if people are going to make homophobic statements or arguments then by jove I will most certainly point that out! There is hardly anything overly sensitive about this.
I find people sitting on the sidelines willing to tolerate such things as "pretty disgusting".
Your definition of "homophobic" is a bit too lax and you should be careful when throwing out words that have negative meanings.
When someone implies that Magic should not have gay characters in it then that is most definitely extremely homophobic.
So _you_ need to revise your meaning of the word.
Stop looking to get offended by things and you'll stop noticing homophobic "implications" that don't exist.
So this opens up any Magic vendor/player in Russia to face fines/prison/ or deportation under their laws.
No I dont think it should because unlike western Europe and America this issue can end up putting you in conflict with the laws of more then a few countries.
If you don't think this sentence "Supporting the gay community is fine. I don't believe Magic is the way to do it." is homophobic then you need to revise your meaning of the word. It directly says that the author thinks it is not fine to support the gay community via Magic and prefers it to be less visible so that they don't have to play a "gay cardgame" (also in the same post).
How much more clear can you get?
That is an entirely different issue, but I'll respond anyways.
I grew up in apartheid South Africa. We couldn't get certain products and artists wouldn't release music here - it added to the social pressure from the world to show the people of South Africa that the racist policies of our government had no place in this world. It played a very significant role in making the white middleclass vote against our apartheid government in the referendum.
Not selling Magic cards in Russia because of their policies and depicting more homosexual characters is a very very good thing and contributes to the international pressure of not approving their policies.
That's one hell of an extrapolation. Do you work in politics? Because that kind of word twisting is impressive.
Seriously, if you think THAT is homophobia than I'm not sure how you function in daily life. Because that was an incredibly tame and rational statement. Not wanting something shoved everywhere because it seems to devalue it is most definitely not the same as blatant homosexual fear/hatred.
You pretty much need to step down from your imaginary moral high horse.
Ok now this is just flaming. I'm stopping right here and asking mods to step in.
Telling you that you're wrong is most definitely not flaming. Should people report you for insulting others by calling them homophobes?
You just don't stop do you? We could go back and forth saying you're wrong to each other for pages.
If someone is being homophobic then they are being homophobic - this is not an insult but stating fact. If they feel insulted they are welcome to report me instead of you championing their statements for pages.
This is my final word on it.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
In the future, if you disagree with what someone says in a thread here, DO NOT FLAME THEM. DO NOT TROLL THEM. There are constructive ways to express dissenting opinions that don't involve insulting or baiting other posters.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!