I meant that Mirrodin originally had a sun for each color except green.
Argentum didn't have any moons to begin with. Each of the moons sprang out of the core when it destabilized. Green was just the last one to happen (and from what we gather, it was overdue because of Memnarch)
Given how often Magic goes to artificial or altered planes is seems like a mistake to exclude them when discussing whether or not a plane can have a bias toward one color or another.
Since the shards of Alara shows that its possible for colors to severely suppressed so it hardly seems unreasonable that much smaller biases may exist on other planes.
I find artificial data points skew the results and lead to biased conclusions about how the nature of the multiverse is supposed to function.
Partly, I'll admit, I just don't want to deal with everyone trying to decide what color some world is every time we see a new one.
Partly, I'll admit, I just don't want to deal with everyone trying to decide what color some world is every time we see a new one.
Frankly, people being bad at planar understanding isn't a reason to overstate something. Chastise those who do it incorrectly.
I think you underestimate how many people look at something like the Soul cycle and draw false conclusions and then propagate them. Heck, this entire discussion is a branch of the entire Ravnica is blue because... that we were dealing with earlier.
Given how often Magic goes to artificial or altered planes is seems like a mistake to exclude them when discussing whether or not a plane can have a bias toward one color or another.
Since the shards of Alara shows that its possible for colors to severely suppressed so it hardly seems unreasonable that much smaller biases may exist on other planes.
I find artificial data points skew the results and lead to biased conclusions about how the nature of the multiverse is supposed to function.
Do we actually have a statement that every natural plane is precisely balanced in terms of the colors?
Partly, I'll admit, I just don't want to deal with everyone trying to decide what color some world is every time we see a new one.
Frankly, people being bad at planar understanding isn't a reason to overstate something. Chastise those who do it incorrectly.
I think you underestimate how many people look at something like the Soul cycle and draw false conclusions and then propagate them. Heck, this entire discussion is a branch of the entire Ravnica is blue because... that we were dealing with earlier.
I'm saying there is potential interesting discussion to be had as long as people who have no clue what they are talking about are guided to correct understanding. To outright say that "planes don't ever lean toward a color" does far more damage to an interesting conversation (as well as being at least somewhat dishonest).
You are confusing the world with the society built upon it. Argentum/Mirrodin/New Phyrexia, as a location, is every color. Like all worlds.
Fine. I don't think anybody is saying the physical plane actually has a color inbalance. It's how the colors have been expressed on a particular plane. The overall expression of the colors (through society or whatnot) of New Phyrexia leans black, just like Innistrad's leans black...and yes, Ravnica's leans Blue(/White).
Not a statement, but we also don't have any evidence for the opposite. And no "Zendikar has a lot of plants so it's green" is not a valid argument.
If anything we know that the cards are evenly distributed among colours for each set, indicating an inherent colour balance per world, but even this argument falls prey to the story-gameplay-separation, sooooo...
Not a statement, but we also don't have any evidence for the opposite. And no "Zendikar has a lot of plants so it's green" is not a valid argument.
If anything we know that the cards are evenly distributed among colours for each set, indicating an inherent colour balance per world, but even this argument falls prey to the story-gameplay-separation, sooooo...
I like to think most planes are balanced within reason. But I think it's silly to assume an even split between the colors on every world.
I like to think most planes are balanced within reason. But I think it's silly to assume an even split between the colors on every world.
Following a certain logic, most worlds that we are familiar with should skew blue because of the amount of water vs land.
That's kind of why this is a frustrating conversation to have, because there are so many ways to interpret the conversation that basically any lead can be taken to justify a stance. That's why I think it is just simpler to make the statement that worlds don't naturally skew towards a color without extreme circumstances present, such as the Sundering or an artificial start.
And I still maintain that Ravnica would skew white since the major forces that maintain it (barring the Izzet) are white. Boros, Azorius, Orzhov, Selesnya, and Izzet are primarily responsible for maintaining the society that shapes the world.
You are confusing the world with the society built upon it. Argentum/Mirrodin/New Phyrexia, as a location, is every color. Like all worlds.
Fine. I don't think anybody is saying the physical plane actually has a color inbalance. It's how the colors have been expressed on a particular plane. The overall expression of the colors (through society or whatnot) of New Phyrexia leans black, just like Innistrad's leans black...and yes, Ravnica's leans Blue(/White).
Honestly, I don't see why people think Ravnica leans towards blue other than "Maro said so".
My comment will be colored by personal experience, but even historically, the destruction of culture is something we've generally seen as reprehensible. When the Soviets rolled into what would be their satellite states, they quashed local languages, local history, local culture. We didn't see that as okay, and in fact see it as one of the facets of tyrannical/autocratic/oppressive systems that we abhor. When the Taliban exploded the giant Buddhas, we saw that as a terrible thing, because it was an attack on cultural history, if not even human history. When ISIS is destroying ancient relics, we again are disgusted, angered. Because it's not right. There are so many examples of this, especially when one group/country invades another with the intent of taking it as their own.
So each of the dragonlords says hey, not only no more khans, and no more clans, but don't even mention it and no one will ever speak the words and act as if all of your past history and culture never existed, there's no way that can be anything but the worst kind of oppressive.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
I think that might come down to expectations informing how we look at the dragonlords vs how we interpret them from other sources.
I mean, really, none of them are demanding virgin sacrifices, and in the past we've seen far far less reasonable dragonlords that basically all acted like Silumgar. (The Primeval Empire, for example)
Now, I'm not defending them or refuting your point, but I think it might be an issue of perspective and past experience shaping how we regard their actions in comparison to others.
Not a statement, but we also don't have any evidence for the opposite.
Then no one should be making a statement that "no plane is biased toward any color" especially when we've SEEN planes where that wasn't true (albeit ones engineered that way).
If anything we know that the cards are evenly distributed among colours for each set, indicating an inherent colour balance per world, but even this argument falls prey to the story-gameplay-separation, sooooo...
They mentioned that they wanted extra Black in Innistrad but disliked the gameplay.
I personally like Barinellos' distinction that it's not the worlds themselves that skew one way or another but the societies that are based on those worlds. The colors are balanced but Innistrad for example due to the world's culture leans toward black due to its obsession with death.
On a side note I'm also beginning to sympathize greatly with his disdain for the souls.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
I think that might come down to expectations informing how we look at the dragonlords vs how we interpret them from other sources.
I mean, really, none of them are demanding virgin sacrifices, and in the past we've seen far far less reasonable dragonlords that basically all acted like Silumgar. (The Primeval Empire, for example)
Now, I'm not defending them or refuting your point, but I think it might be an issue of perspective and past experience shaping how we regard their actions in comparison to others.
True, the Primevals were bad news before they were put down into their respective 'jails' (though Darigaaz and his mom were pretty cool before the Primevals were awoken again, which could lead into a nature vs. nurture debate, which I don't think this is the proper venue for).
But what you describe seems to be a difference of degree, instead of a fundamental difference. Compared to worse 'dragonlords', the Tarkir dragonlords may not be as tyrannical/oppressive as they could be. But the fact remains, the fundamental premise of the new Tarkir, of Tarkir 1.1, is the crushing of culture and ways of life, and the required acceptance of that by the oppressed, so that the oppressed may survive. Ojutai may be the least tyrannical/oppressive, but at the end of the day, until he retracts the ban on discussion of the past, of the clans and whatnot, he continues to be an oppressor. He is then only the lesser in a characteristic that it is no great thing to even be affiliated with.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
I think that might come down to expectations informing how we look at the dragonlords vs how we interpret them from other sources.
I mean, really, none of them are demanding virgin sacrifices, and in the past we've seen far far less reasonable dragonlords that basically all acted like Silumgar. (The Primeval Empire, for example)
Now, I'm not defending them or refuting your point, but I think it might be an issue of perspective and past experience shaping how we regard their actions in comparison to others.
True, the Primevals were bad news before they were put down into their respective 'jails' (though Darigaaz and his mom were pretty cool before the Primevals were awoken again, which could lead into a nature vs. nurture debate, which I don't think this is the proper venue for).
But what you describe seems to be a difference of degree, instead of a fundamental difference. Compared to worse 'dragonlords', the Tarkir dragonlords may not be as tyrannical/oppressive as they could be. But the fact remains, the fundamental premise of the new Tarkir, of Tarkir 1.1, is the crushing of culture and ways of life, and the required acceptance of that by the oppressed, so that the oppressed may survive. Ojutai may be the least tyrannical/oppressive, but at the end of the day, until he retracts the ban on discussion of the past, of the clans and whatnot, he continues to be an oppressor. He is then only the lesser in a characteristic that it is no great thing to even be affiliated with.
To be honest, though, most cultures have formed on this planet from either a blending of culture or a quashing of other cultures. Unless you are a member of a tribe or a community of people who has had no experience with ANY other civilized people then most likely your root culture has been altered somehow. I am not saying that genocide or cultural oppression are justifiable offenses, but the dragon lords represent the ideological apex of what the clans already were and it was not as if the clans were peaceful individuals and the dragons bloodthirsty tyrants. There was already a war going on; a war which would have meant the extinction of every other race on Tarkir. The races bent the knee and over the course of 1,280 years the races developed a coexistence with the dragons.
In my opinion the dragon lords brought out the best in each culture without the cultures even knowing it.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
I think that might come down to expectations informing how we look at the dragonlords vs how we interpret them from other sources.
I mean, really, none of them are demanding virgin sacrifices, and in the past we've seen far far less reasonable dragonlords that basically all acted like Silumgar. (The Primeval Empire, for example)
Now, I'm not defending them or refuting your point, but I think it might be an issue of perspective and past experience shaping how we regard their actions in comparison to others.
True, the Primevals were bad news before they were put down into their respective 'jails' (though Darigaaz and his mom were pretty cool before the Primevals were awoken again, which could lead into a nature vs. nurture debate, which I don't think this is the proper venue for).
But what you describe seems to be a difference of degree, instead of a fundamental difference. Compared to worse 'dragonlords', the Tarkir dragonlords may not be as tyrannical/oppressive as they could be. But the fact remains, the fundamental premise of the new Tarkir, of Tarkir 1.1, is the crushing of culture and ways of life, and the required acceptance of that by the oppressed, so that the oppressed may survive. Ojutai may be the least tyrannical/oppressive, but at the end of the day, until he retracts the ban on discussion of the past, of the clans and whatnot, he continues to be an oppressor. He is then only the lesser in a characteristic that it is no great thing to even be affiliated with.
To be honest, though, most cultures have formed on this planet from either a blending of culture or a quashing of other cultures. Unless you are a member of a tribe or a community of people who has had no experience with ANY other civilized people then most likely your root culture has been altered somehow. I am not saying that genocide or cultural oppression are justifiable offenses, but the dragon lords represent the ideological apex of what the clans already were and it was not as if the clans were peaceful individuals and the dragons bloodthirsty tyrants. There was already a war going on; a war which would have meant the extinction of every other race on Tarkir. The races bent the knee and over the course of 1,280 years the races developed a coexistence with the dragons.
In my opinion the dragon lords brought out the best in each culture without the cultures even knowing it.
Fair point, but I would say the blending of cultures in the modern day happens often and everywhere, but the subjugation of culture in the modern day most of us would find unacceptable. As for Tarkir, Tarkir was a place of relative balance in FRF. I say relative because there was fighting between humans and dragons. I think it seems that Ugin wanted balance, because without him in death, humans destroyed dragons. Without him in presence (Tarkir 1.1), dragon tempests increase and dragons subjugate humans (for the most part; I think it seems Kolaghan and the Mardu kind of work together more than one subjugating the other, but I guess we'll find out). As for ideological apex, I'd like to hear more about that from you, since it is an intriguing idea, but I don't know what you conceive that idea as. Also the bringing out the best in each culture, if you could expound.
They do coexist, in that the dragons did not destroy humans, but think for a moment what dragons had to give up ("Let's not kill humans unless we have to, maybe") to coexist, then look at what the humans had to give up (their cultural identities, their terms, their histories) in order to coexist. In this context, it's less coexistence and more subjugation. At least to me. As an eh example from another source of fiction, if Magneto succeeded in his dream, and mutants controlled the planet to the detriment of regular humans, would we say that humans and mutants were coexisting, or that humans were subjugated to mutants?
As for ideological apex, I'd like to hear more about that from you, since it is an intriguing idea, but I don't know what you conceive that idea as.
Well, it goes into the fact that each of the clans revered one aspect of the dragons and came up with a symbol to represent that trait. They aspired to emulate the dragons as apex predators even though they'd fought them constantly.
So each of the dragonlords says hey, not only no more khans, and no more clans, but don't even mention it and no one will ever speak the words and act as if all of your past history and culture never existed, there's no way that can be anything but the worst kind of oppressive.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
So I'm not going to deny that Ojutai and the dragons are subjugating the humans, in that they are more powerful physically, Ojutai basically sets up a cult of personality around himself, and so forth. However, you seem to hone in on one specific bad aspect (suppression of knowledge of the human cultures' past) and conclude that the dragonlords must be the most horrible oppressors ever. That's blatantly false, as the characters from the last UR show. The merchants seem to be decently well-off financially, they don't have to spend several hours a day learning martial arts or meditating unless they choose to, those who do become Ojutai's students are fed and clothed and getting an education (albeit one heavily laced with propaganda), and more importantly, the clans aren't at war. Narset learns "of a time when clans warred" while reading the ancient scrolls, implying this isn't something that has continued to the present day. If I were a random peasant living in Tarkir, I know I'd care less about whether my ancestors 1,280 years ago were or weren't doing some random cultural practice, and more about how nice it would be not to be constantly worrying about dragon attacks, Mardu raids, or getting randomly turned into a zombie by my own khan.
Even Ojutai himself is a bit ambiguous. The interpretation of him just being glad to get Narset the heretic out of his way is plausible, but it also seems possible that he's seen how she "transcended" the worldview he tried to build up in her mind and he genuinely respects her for doing so.
So each of the dragonlords says hey, not only no more khans, and no more clans, but don't even mention it and no one will ever speak the words and act as if all of your past history and culture never existed, there's no way that can be anything but the worst kind of oppressive.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
So I'm not going to deny that Ojutai and the dragons are subjugating the humans, in that they are more powerful physically, Ojutai basically sets up a cult of personality around himself, and so forth. However, you seem to hone in on one specific bad aspect (suppression of knowledge of the human cultures' past) and conclude that the dragonlords must be the most horrible oppressors ever. That's blatantly false, as the characters from the last UR show. The merchants seem to be decently well-off financially, they don't have to spend several hours a day learning martial arts or meditating unless they choose to, those who do become Ojutai's students are fed and clothed and getting an education (albeit one heavily laced with propaganda), and more importantly, the clans aren't at war. Narset learns "of a time when clans warred" while reading the ancient scrolls, implying this isn't something that has continued to the present day. If I were a random peasant living in Tarkir, I know I'd care less about whether my ancestors 1,280 years ago were or weren't doing some random cultural practice, and more about how nice it would be not to be constantly worrying about dragon attacks, Mardu raids, or getting randomly turned into a zombie by my own khan.
Even Ojutai himself is a bit ambiguous. The interpretation of him just being glad to get Narset the heretic out of his way is plausible, but it also seems possible that he's seen how she "transcended" the worldview he tried to build up in her mind and he genuinely respects her for doing so.
I didn't go so far as to say they're the "most horrible oppressors ever", only that they are, in fact, oppressors on a wide, wide scale. And your description of life under Ojutai sounds largely similar to what life was like under the Jeskai. They didn't force anyone to become monks. Their society was described as largely beneficent, from what I remember. So I don't know what differences you're driving at there. I do note that neither Narset nor Taigam's presumed art possess the 'ghostfire' eye that they would have had in KTK.
And if the cultural history and significance was nothing and not a threat, why do the dragonlords keep up the ban on terms? Why, even, do people still remember the terms? Vial Breaker is all crazy about not saying khans. Which means that someone somewhere is still talking about khans. Which means, to me, that the knowledge of what was lost is not so 'lost' as you make it sound when you type about "random cultural practice". Since the ban is still in effect, it means that the dragonlords know it would be dangerous to them, and it would only be dangerous to them if the cultural history was still capable of being very important to current generations. I'm very familiar, even personally so, with real-world cultural subjugation, and know that you can never crush it, stamp it out completely. I mean, if you found out tomorrow that two-thousand years ago, a system was set in place to take advantage of you, to make sure you were prevented from knowing anything about your past before two-thousand years ago, that your cultural identity had been wiped out for no real reason, I doubt the greater majority of people would shake it off and say, whatevs. I think many would want to know what was taken from them, and resent that they, and their ancestors, labored under falsehood. But I guess reasonable people can disagree about the unknown, since I have no real-world example on the same scale as Tarkir 1.1.
Ojutai: Wisdom
Atarka: Savagery
Dromoka: Community
Silumgar: Avarice
Kolagharn: Cunning/Speed
These traits are what the original clans idolized in the original Tarkir. Now these traits are made flesh and in their purest forms. In fact, these traits all symbolize what could be described as the core essence of dragonhood. These traits may also be a diffusion of what Ugin is or what he aspires to be: balance. It is probably why Ugin is colorless.
I am not condoning what the dragon lords did to the khans, and the universe knows that our own history has been dictated by those holding the pens, but the fact remains that Tarkir is now a more robust and vibrant version of what it once was. So the matter is subjective: do we condemn the dragon lords for erasing the history of an entire culture or do we praise them for creating a new culture far more vibrant and, dare I say, peaceful than the last?
So each of the dragonlords says hey, not only no more khans, and no more clans, but don't even mention it and no one will ever speak the words and act as if all of your past history and culture never existed, there's no way that can be anything but the worst kind of oppressive.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
So I'm not going to deny that Ojutai and the dragons are subjugating the humans, in that they are more powerful physically, Ojutai basically sets up a cult of personality around himself, and so forth. However, you seem to hone in on one specific bad aspect (suppression of knowledge of the human cultures' past) and conclude that the dragonlords must be the most horrible oppressors ever. That's blatantly false, as the characters from the last UR show. The merchants seem to be decently well-off financially, they don't have to spend several hours a day learning martial arts or meditating unless they choose to, those who do become Ojutai's students are fed and clothed and getting an education (albeit one heavily laced with propaganda), and more importantly, the clans aren't at war. Narset learns "of a time when clans warred" while reading the ancient scrolls, implying this isn't something that has continued to the present day. If I were a random peasant living in Tarkir, I know I'd care less about whether my ancestors 1,280 years ago were or weren't doing some random cultural practice, and more about how nice it would be not to be constantly worrying about dragon attacks, Mardu raids, or getting randomly turned into a zombie by my own khan.
Even Ojutai himself is a bit ambiguous. The interpretation of him just being glad to get Narset the heretic out of his way is plausible, but it also seems possible that he's seen how she "transcended" the worldview he tried to build up in her mind and he genuinely respects her for doing so.
I didn't go so far as to say they're the "most horrible oppressors ever", only that they are, in fact, oppressors on a wide, wide scale.
Did you not just say "there's no way that can be anything but the worst kind of oppressive"? Implying that wiping out cultural history is worse than, say, forcing your population to fight wars or killing them at random for your own amusement, the way the Sultai did under all three timeframes?
And your description of life under Ojutai sounds largely similar to what life was like under the Jeskai. They didn't force anyone to become monks.
The Jeskai devote themselves to martial arts and skills with weapons. Every person, whether farmer, fisher, or monk, has a weapon of choice. Study and practice with this weapon continue throughout a person's life. A day without training is a wasted day according to the Jeskai. In addition to weapons training, the members of this clan devote several hours a day to physical meditation, resembling combat forms practiced in slow motion.
Initiate's Stair [...] Jeskai children spend years in preparation, which begins as early as four years of age.
The Jeskai believe that everyone—even common artisans—should experience rigor and hardship to gain access to mystical knowledge and physical mastery.
When a student reaches adolescence, the youth can choose from three paths: "artisan," "mystic," or "wandering warrior." While most students are born into the clan, it is not unheard of for a Temur youth or an orphan from another clan to be educated by the Jeskai.
Seems to me that if you happen to be born into a Jeskai village, you're going to be shoved down the "path to enlightenment" (and contributing to either fighting or making weapons; no conscientious objections here!) for your whole life, unless you're willing to leave the clan and by extension surrender your family ties and the protection of the Jeskai legal system.
And if the cultural history and significance was nothing and not a threat, why do the dragonlords keep up the ban on terms? Why, even, do people still remember the terms? Vial Breaker is all crazy about not saying khans. Which means that someone somewhere is still talking about khans. Which means, to me, that the knowledge of what was lost is not so 'lost' as you make it sound when you type about "random cultural practice". Since the ban is still in effect, it means that the dragonlords know it would be dangerous to them, and it would only be dangerous to them if the cultural history was still capable of being very important to current generations.
Talking about khans, specifically, is talking about a time when humans had human rulers who were trying to kill dragons, so I can see why that might be a bit of a sore point.
I'm very familiar, even personally so, with real-world cultural subjugation, and know that you can never crush it, stamp it out completely. I mean, if you found out tomorrow that two-thousand years ago, a system was set in place to take advantage of you, to make sure you were prevented from knowing anything about your past before two-thousand years ago, that your cultural identity had been wiped out for no real reason, I doubt the greater majority of people would shake it off and say, whatevs. I think many would want to know what was taken from them, and resent that they, and their ancestors, labored under falsehood. But I guess reasonable people can disagree about the unknown, since I have no real-world example on the same scale as Tarkir 1.1.
I'm a nonwhite person who lives in the USA. I'd wager that every nonwhite person who lives in the USA has had white USAians trample all over their culture at some point, and probably even most of the white ones. I have only the vaguest idea of what cultural practices my ancestors practiced 1000 years ago (even though, praise the Internet, I could probably find out if I tried hard enough). The fact that I continue to live in a country run (mostly) by white USAians whose ancestors were culturally insensitive racist ********s is annoying, but being righteously angry at it cannot be on my mind at all times when I have the mundane tasks of daily living to take care of. Especially since said white USAians aren't barging into my community spaces trying to destroy the culture I practice right now (as goes on in less fortunate parts of the world).
ETA: From the Narset UR as well:
Narset did not mean to be arrogant, those were just the facts. Her mind was more like a dragon's mind than a human's. She learned more and faster than any other student at the Sanctuary
So we have a line about being like a dragon's mind juxtaposed against a line about learning more and faster. Possibly the dragons (at least Ojutai's brood) are canonically ubermensch? And Tarkir really is better off being ruled by superintelligent dragons than humans, orcs, and nagas with their short lifetimes and myriad flaws? (I mean, yeah, kinda sucks if you're a human, but this trope is hardly rare in speculative fiction.)
Looks like this is true. Gideon is from Theros and was a legendary creature who is famous on the plane. His Magic: Origins story is him as a child on Theros.
Looks like this is true. Gideon is from Theros and was a legendary creature who is famous on the plane. His Magic: Origins story is him as a child on Theros.
Where'd you find this?
Private Mod Note
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I find artificial data points skew the results and lead to biased conclusions about how the nature of the multiverse is supposed to function.
Partly, I'll admit, I just don't want to deal with everyone trying to decide what color some world is every time we see a new one.
Frankly, people being bad at planar understanding isn't a reason to overstate something. Chastise those who do it incorrectly.
Do we actually have a statement that every natural plane is precisely balanced in terms of the colors?
I'm saying there is potential interesting discussion to be had as long as people who have no clue what they are talking about are guided to correct understanding. To outright say that "planes don't ever lean toward a color" does far more damage to an interesting conversation (as well as being at least somewhat dishonest).
But I understand the frustration.
Fine. I don't think anybody is saying the physical plane actually has a color inbalance. It's how the colors have been expressed on a particular plane. The overall expression of the colors (through society or whatnot) of New Phyrexia leans black, just like Innistrad's leans black...and yes, Ravnica's leans Blue(/White).
If anything we know that the cards are evenly distributed among colours for each set, indicating an inherent colour balance per world, but even this argument falls prey to the story-gameplay-separation, sooooo...
I like to think most planes are balanced within reason. But I think it's silly to assume an even split between the colors on every world.
Following a certain logic, most worlds that we are familiar with should skew blue because of the amount of water vs land.
That's kind of why this is a frustrating conversation to have, because there are so many ways to interpret the conversation that basically any lead can be taken to justify a stance. That's why I think it is just simpler to make the statement that worlds don't naturally skew towards a color without extreme circumstances present, such as the Sundering or an artificial start.
And I still maintain that Ravnica would skew white since the major forces that maintain it (barring the Izzet) are white. Boros, Azorius, Orzhov, Selesnya, and Izzet are primarily responsible for maintaining the society that shapes the world.
Honestly, I don't see why people think Ravnica leans towards blue other than "Maro said so".
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
My comment will be colored by personal experience, but even historically, the destruction of culture is something we've generally seen as reprehensible. When the Soviets rolled into what would be their satellite states, they quashed local languages, local history, local culture. We didn't see that as okay, and in fact see it as one of the facets of tyrannical/autocratic/oppressive systems that we abhor. When the Taliban exploded the giant Buddhas, we saw that as a terrible thing, because it was an attack on cultural history, if not even human history. When ISIS is destroying ancient relics, we again are disgusted, angered. Because it's not right. There are so many examples of this, especially when one group/country invades another with the intent of taking it as their own.
So each of the dragonlords says hey, not only no more khans, and no more clans, but don't even mention it and no one will ever speak the words and act as if all of your past history and culture never existed, there's no way that can be anything but the worst kind of oppressive.
So at the end of the day, I'm not going to nod and stroke my chin, saying one or the other dragonlord isn't that oppressive. They set into motion these new Laws which people were forced to obey (or die, from what I understand). I think they should be repulsive.
I mean, really, none of them are demanding virgin sacrifices, and in the past we've seen far far less reasonable dragonlords that basically all acted like Silumgar. (The Primeval Empire, for example)
Now, I'm not defending them or refuting your point, but I think it might be an issue of perspective and past experience shaping how we regard their actions in comparison to others.
Then no one should be making a statement that "no plane is biased toward any color" especially when we've SEEN planes where that wasn't true (albeit ones engineered that way).
They mentioned that they wanted extra Black in Innistrad but disliked the gameplay.
On a side note I'm also beginning to sympathize greatly with his disdain for the souls.
True, the Primevals were bad news before they were put down into their respective 'jails' (though Darigaaz and his mom were pretty cool before the Primevals were awoken again, which could lead into a nature vs. nurture debate, which I don't think this is the proper venue for).
But what you describe seems to be a difference of degree, instead of a fundamental difference. Compared to worse 'dragonlords', the Tarkir dragonlords may not be as tyrannical/oppressive as they could be. But the fact remains, the fundamental premise of the new Tarkir, of Tarkir 1.1, is the crushing of culture and ways of life, and the required acceptance of that by the oppressed, so that the oppressed may survive. Ojutai may be the least tyrannical/oppressive, but at the end of the day, until he retracts the ban on discussion of the past, of the clans and whatnot, he continues to be an oppressor. He is then only the lesser in a characteristic that it is no great thing to even be affiliated with.
To be honest, though, most cultures have formed on this planet from either a blending of culture or a quashing of other cultures. Unless you are a member of a tribe or a community of people who has had no experience with ANY other civilized people then most likely your root culture has been altered somehow. I am not saying that genocide or cultural oppression are justifiable offenses, but the dragon lords represent the ideological apex of what the clans already were and it was not as if the clans were peaceful individuals and the dragons bloodthirsty tyrants. There was already a war going on; a war which would have meant the extinction of every other race on Tarkir. The races bent the knee and over the course of 1,280 years the races developed a coexistence with the dragons.
In my opinion the dragon lords brought out the best in each culture without the cultures even knowing it.
Fair point, but I would say the blending of cultures in the modern day happens often and everywhere, but the subjugation of culture in the modern day most of us would find unacceptable. As for Tarkir, Tarkir was a place of relative balance in FRF. I say relative because there was fighting between humans and dragons. I think it seems that Ugin wanted balance, because without him in death, humans destroyed dragons. Without him in presence (Tarkir 1.1), dragon tempests increase and dragons subjugate humans (for the most part; I think it seems Kolaghan and the Mardu kind of work together more than one subjugating the other, but I guess we'll find out). As for ideological apex, I'd like to hear more about that from you, since it is an intriguing idea, but I don't know what you conceive that idea as. Also the bringing out the best in each culture, if you could expound.
They do coexist, in that the dragons did not destroy humans, but think for a moment what dragons had to give up ("Let's not kill humans unless we have to, maybe") to coexist, then look at what the humans had to give up (their cultural identities, their terms, their histories) in order to coexist. In this context, it's less coexistence and more subjugation. At least to me. As an eh example from another source of fiction, if Magneto succeeded in his dream, and mutants controlled the planet to the detriment of regular humans, would we say that humans and mutants were coexisting, or that humans were subjugated to mutants?
So I'm not going to deny that Ojutai and the dragons are subjugating the humans, in that they are more powerful physically, Ojutai basically sets up a cult of personality around himself, and so forth. However, you seem to hone in on one specific bad aspect (suppression of knowledge of the human cultures' past) and conclude that the dragonlords must be the most horrible oppressors ever. That's blatantly false, as the characters from the last UR show. The merchants seem to be decently well-off financially, they don't have to spend several hours a day learning martial arts or meditating unless they choose to, those who do become Ojutai's students are fed and clothed and getting an education (albeit one heavily laced with propaganda), and more importantly, the clans aren't at war. Narset learns "of a time when clans warred" while reading the ancient scrolls, implying this isn't something that has continued to the present day. If I were a random peasant living in Tarkir, I know I'd care less about whether my ancestors 1,280 years ago were or weren't doing some random cultural practice, and more about how nice it would be not to be constantly worrying about dragon attacks, Mardu raids, or getting randomly turned into a zombie by my own khan.
Even Ojutai himself is a bit ambiguous. The interpretation of him just being glad to get Narset the heretic out of his way is plausible, but it also seems possible that he's seen how she "transcended" the worldview he tried to build up in her mind and he genuinely respects her for doing so.
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I didn't go so far as to say they're the "most horrible oppressors ever", only that they are, in fact, oppressors on a wide, wide scale. And your description of life under Ojutai sounds largely similar to what life was like under the Jeskai. They didn't force anyone to become monks. Their society was described as largely beneficent, from what I remember. So I don't know what differences you're driving at there. I do note that neither Narset nor Taigam's presumed art possess the 'ghostfire' eye that they would have had in KTK.
And if the cultural history and significance was nothing and not a threat, why do the dragonlords keep up the ban on terms? Why, even, do people still remember the terms? Vial Breaker is all crazy about not saying khans. Which means that someone somewhere is still talking about khans. Which means, to me, that the knowledge of what was lost is not so 'lost' as you make it sound when you type about "random cultural practice". Since the ban is still in effect, it means that the dragonlords know it would be dangerous to them, and it would only be dangerous to them if the cultural history was still capable of being very important to current generations. I'm very familiar, even personally so, with real-world cultural subjugation, and know that you can never crush it, stamp it out completely. I mean, if you found out tomorrow that two-thousand years ago, a system was set in place to take advantage of you, to make sure you were prevented from knowing anything about your past before two-thousand years ago, that your cultural identity had been wiped out for no real reason, I doubt the greater majority of people would shake it off and say, whatevs. I think many would want to know what was taken from them, and resent that they, and their ancestors, labored under falsehood. But I guess reasonable people can disagree about the unknown, since I have no real-world example on the same scale as Tarkir 1.1.
Ojutai: Wisdom
Atarka: Savagery
Dromoka: Community
Silumgar: Avarice
Kolagharn: Cunning/Speed
These traits are what the original clans idolized in the original Tarkir. Now these traits are made flesh and in their purest forms. In fact, these traits all symbolize what could be described as the core essence of dragonhood. These traits may also be a diffusion of what Ugin is or what he aspires to be: balance. It is probably why Ugin is colorless.
I am not condoning what the dragon lords did to the khans, and the universe knows that our own history has been dictated by those holding the pens, but the fact remains that Tarkir is now a more robust and vibrant version of what it once was. So the matter is subjective: do we condemn the dragon lords for erasing the history of an entire culture or do we praise them for creating a new culture far more vibrant and, dare I say, peaceful than the last?
Did you not just say "there's no way that can be anything but the worst kind of oppressive"? Implying that wiping out cultural history is worse than, say, forcing your population to fight wars or killing them at random for your own amusement, the way the Sultai did under all three timeframes?
Except that they did. Direct from the Planeswalker's guide:
Seems to me that if you happen to be born into a Jeskai village, you're going to be shoved down the "path to enlightenment" (and contributing to either fighting or making weapons; no conscientious objections here!) for your whole life, unless you're willing to leave the clan and by extension surrender your family ties and the protection of the Jeskai legal system.
Talking about khans, specifically, is talking about a time when humans had human rulers who were trying to kill dragons, so I can see why that might be a bit of a sore point.
I'm a nonwhite person who lives in the USA. I'd wager that every nonwhite person who lives in the USA has had white USAians trample all over their culture at some point, and probably even most of the white ones. I have only the vaguest idea of what cultural practices my ancestors practiced 1000 years ago (even though, praise the Internet, I could probably find out if I tried hard enough). The fact that I continue to live in a country run (mostly) by white USAians whose ancestors were culturally insensitive racist ********s is annoying, but being righteously angry at it cannot be on my mind at all times when I have the mundane tasks of daily living to take care of. Especially since said white USAians aren't barging into my community spaces trying to destroy the culture I practice right now (as goes on in less fortunate parts of the world).
ETA: From the Narset UR as well:
So we have a line about being like a dragon's mind juxtaposed against a line about learning more and faster. Possibly the dragons (at least Ojutai's brood) are canonically ubermensch? And Tarkir really is better off being ruled by superintelligent dragons than humans, orcs, and nagas with their short lifetimes and myriad flaws? (I mean, yeah, kinda sucks if you're a human, but this trope is hardly rare in speculative fiction.)
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Looks like this is true. Gideon is from Theros and was a legendary creature who is famous on the plane. His Magic: Origins story is him as a child on Theros.
Where'd you find this?