As to the possibility that Tarkir 1.1 will be just as bad for non-draconians as, perhaps even worse than, Tarkir 1.0 was, an odd possibility drifted to mind.
Namely, that Tarkir is a bit like Ulgrotha and Ravnica, in that most of the lifeforms aren't strictly native to the place. Only in this case, Ugin "seeded" the plane with non-draconians expressly to be a food source for the dragons. More specifically, a food source the dragons couldn't easily consume into oblivion. This is Ugin we're talking about; he took pains to keep the Eldrazi alive in case there was a Dominian niche that could be filled only by them. That is, if it turns out the Eldrazi are needed to keep Dominia in balance, he'll be happy to let them run roughshod over the planes again. As the planeswalkers' guide mentioned, the gestalt is all that matters to him in the end. Hence Nahiri's exasperation with his reluctance to care about the fate of the details. Sorin, at least, was more worried about efficacy and futility. If non-draconians, except perhaps the efreet, are non-native to Tarkir, it would imply that Ugin wasn't bothered by how much worse the laws of the wild are for sapients, as opposed to creatures that are "only" sentient, and very likely wasn't bothered about the consent of the seeds. He didn't ask any Zendikari denizens except Nahiri about how they'd like having the Eldrazi stuck on their plane, after all...
I have a feeling that Ugin genuinely deems himself Above Good and Evil--not in the sense of only caring about his whims, but in seeing morality as we know it as ultimately unimportant in the greater scheme of things. To put this as another TVTrope, he embodies Blue and Orange Morality, without the slightest intersection or parallel with the White and Black axis.
Ha, in that situation, doing nothing itself puts blood on the entity's hands anyway. Passive responsibility is still responsibility, after all.
My point was that from what we've been told, Ugin has a hard time seeing the trees for the forest. Also, Ugin is taking the line that nullifying the Eldrazi might genuinely be the wrong path. Not that likely, granted, but still a real possibility. So, just in case, he made sure the Eldrazi could be restored, if something even worse loomed on account of their absence.
it seems to me that the reason bolas released them might be because that bad thing that needs the eldrazi to deal with it is some how affecting bolas him self or his business.
Ugin is a dragon, but he's no God. The cultures on Tarkir are way too diverse to have just 'spawned' in there like happened on Mirrodin.
Cultures in reality are quite diverse despite spawning on a single planet, and even if you're super religious I'm pretty sure no one things that God invented all of the world's culture.
I believe he saved the dragons, but he couldn't save Ugin (fully). The essence/body of Ugin was crystallized/preserved by hedrons so the dragons could continue living and borne from the newfound crucible. What I'm saying is that Ugin might be in a semi-unconscious state.
If Bolas senses Ugin he could come back and kill him; better to be undetected this way?
Well this clears some things up, Alara and Zendikar will still have a "Sarkhan" in them and events will go the exact same as before for those planes.
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“There are no weak Jews. I am descended from those who wrestle angels and kill giants. We were chosen by God. You were chosen by a pathetic little man who can't seem to grow a full mustache"
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Well this clears some things up, Alara and Zendikar will still have a "Sarkhan" in them and events will go the exact same as before for those planes.
According to 5colors looks like I guessed rights on the results but not the mecanics
Now on to the slice of life and amd windows to another world stories.
Perhaps yasova would leave a message for sarkhan.
Besides if Sarkhan was a name given in jest then will we get to find out what is Sarkhan's name? Could it be his planeswalker name like how a warname function. If he does live up to his name maybe Chandra is the next of the ugin eye 3 to be a planeswalking political figure. After mending it seems like the planes walker fit the plane the call their own rather than having their plane fit their whims.
Also somebody might have pointed out the opening lines of the khans of tarkir trailer with sarkhan stating he never been born.
Strangely in one of the UR Sarkhan have a grandfather at some point
The past two weeks' stories were most exciting. I sympathized with Yasova more than Sarkhan, because, as awesome as dragons are, the fact that they are predators of humans is not a good thing, and the fact that dragons have not always existed on Tarkir is proof that the plane does not need them to survive, just as our own world in actuality does not need humans to survive, as much as I do not like to admit it.
At this point, is it safe to presume that Bolas sought to kill Ugin because he wished to eliminate any being who could potentially rival him in power?
The ending of the most recent story, in which Sarkhan is "whisked away by temporal forces" is again evidence, in my mind, that time travel is a dangerous element and should never be used in stories. I still say that Ugin and the other dragons should have simply been revived in the present time after the Khans of Tarkir set, but, apparently, the people at WotC did not agree with that. What is even most unusual is that Mark Rosewater even acknowledge, in an article today, that time travel is a dangerous element that should never be toyed with, yet that is exactly what happens in this set. Why is he not taking his own advice?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
The past two weeks' stories were most exciting. I sympathized with Yasova more than Sarkhan, because, as awesome as dragons are, the fact that they are predators of humans is not a good thing, and the fact that dragons have not always existed on Tarkir is proof that the plane does not need them to survive, just as our own world in actuality does not need humans to survive, as much as I do not like to admit it.
Where it was said that there were not always dragons on Tarkir? I might have missed that.
The ending of the most recent story, in which Sarkhan is "whisked away by temporal forces" is again evidence, in my mind, that time travel is a dangerous element and should never be used in stories. I still say that Ugin and the other dragons should have simply been revived in the present time after the Khans of Tarkir set, but, apparently, the people at WotC did not agree with that. What is even most unusual is that Mark Rosewater even acknowledge, in an article today, that time travel is a dangerous element that should never be toyed with, yet that is exactly what happens in this set. Why is he not taking his own advice?
MaRo is the Head Designer, not Head of Creative.
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Former Fact Prospector of the Greek Alliance.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
What is even most unusual is that Mark Rosewater even acknowledge, in an article today, that time travel is a dangerous element that should never be toyed with, yet that is exactly what happens in this set. Why is he not taking his own advice?
Since when are story writers not letting their characters do things that they themselves would never do?
What is even most unusual is that Mark Rosewater even acknowledge, in an article today, that time travel is a dangerous element that should never be toyed with, yet that is exactly what happens in this set. Why is he not taking his own advice?
Because he isn't a member of the creative team? You'll notice a lack of time travel stories while MaRo was a writer for Roseanne, though.
Also MaRo believes that time travel is a bad idea not that time travel makes for bad stories.
Several users here have said that the plane of Theros has an actual edge, but has WotC ever officially stated that? Also, if Theros is based off ancient Greece, then it should definitely not have an edge, since the ancient Greeks knew that the world is round (they were very intelligent and educated, especially in the fields of astronomy and geometry).
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Several users here have said that the plane of Theros has an actual edge, but has WotC ever officially stated that? Also, if Theros is based off ancient Greece, then it should definitely not have an edge, since the ancient Greeks knew that the world is round (they were very intelligent and educated, especially in the fields of astronomy and geometry).
It does have an actual edge. It is where the ocean falls into the Blind Eternities and is where the Temple of Mystery is located. Ajani and Elspeth had to sail there to get into Nyx through the backdoor.
As to the other, even if it is based on ancient Greece, it doesn't mean it IS ancient Greece. It's Theros and the rules are different.
It does have an actual edge. It is where the ocean falls into the Blind Eternities and is where the Temple of Mystery is located. Ajani and Elspeth had to sail there to get into Nyx through the backdoor.
As to the other, even if it is based on ancient Greece, it doesn't mean it IS ancient Greece. It's Theros and the rules are different.
I have not read the book of the Theros block, so I would not be familiar with that part of the story.
Why would WotC choose to have a plane with an actual edge? The idea of a plane (or planet) having an edge is a ridiculous one, especially to modern audiences, for whom the idea of a spherical Earth is the default diea.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Why would WotC choose to have a plane with an actual edge? The idea of a plane (or planet) having an edge is a ridiculous one, especially to modern audiences, for whom the idea of a spherical Earth is the default diea.
It does have an actual edge. It is where the ocean falls into the Blind Eternities and is where the Temple of Mystery is located. Ajani and Elspeth had to sail there to get into Nyx through the backdoor.
As to the other, even if it is based on ancient Greece, it doesn't mean it IS ancient Greece. It's Theros and the rules are different.
I have not read the book of the Theros block, so I would not be familiar with that part of the story.
Why would WotC choose to have a plane with an actual edge? The idea of a plane (or planet) having an edge is a ridiculous one, especially to modern audiences, for whom the idea of a spherical Earth is the default diea.
It's in the Planeswalker's guide.
And why is "it sounded cool and it's fantasy so Earth physics don't have to be followed 100%" not sufficient for you? I'm sorry that you have such a limited imagination that you think it's "ridiculous" that modern audiences could possibly enjoy a fantasy story that doesn't use the default conception of what a plane/planet should look like.*
I've noticed you keep asking "Why would WotC do [thing I don't like]?" You do realize that WotC representatives have their own not-MTGS boards that they sometimes answer fan questions on, right? I don't understand how you think you'll get productive answers by asking a bunch of not-WotC people these questions.
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It's fine to attack a person's *ideas*. It's not acceptable to attack the *person*. Please keep things civil.
~kaburi
Jenesis, I believe that I have a great imagination, since I write short stories and poetry as a hobby, and I am working on building my own medieval fantasy world, inspired by The Lord of the Rings, The Sword of Shannara, Forgotten Realms, and so forth. When I was younger, I played with Lego and K'nex sets constantly, and I now have woodworking and playing the piano as current hobbies, all of which help to keep a person's creative abilities active and sharp. I have no problem with fantasy stories that do not follow our own universe's rules of physics, but there are some things that I cannot accept, such as centaurs (which are biologically improbable), Godzilla-sized monsters, or flat worlds. I am also a very scientific and rational person (or at least attempt to be), so story elements that blatantly violate the laws of physics or biology simply bother me.
I joined this forums, because I prefer fan forums over the official forums. That preference dates back to when I was much younger, and had just started playing Dungeons & Dragonswith the release of that game's third edition. I was a member of the official WotC forums, where I discussed the game, but then, one day, I discovered, by chance, a fan community known as Dicefreaks, and I found that I enjoyed that community more than WotC's official community, in no small part because its members had their own re-interpretations of various elements of the game, most notably the archfiends, who, in my mind, are very weak in WotC's official textbooks.
Similarly, since this forum has a section for custom card creation, I joined it, because I wished to share my own custom card ideas with other players of this game, and I was hoping to feel a sense of community and belonging here. I give my best effort to be polite and friendly to everyone with whom I interact, so I do not see what problem there is with expressing my own opinion, especially since I understand that it is only my own opinion, and that other people may not agree with it.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
story elements that blatantly violate the laws of physics or biology simply bother me
We're discussing a game where a man who can turn into a dragon just travelled back in time 1280 years to prevent the death of a spirit dragon whose mere presence generates clouds of magical energy that spawn other dragons though spontaneous generation.
Very little in this game conforms to our universe's laws of physics and/or biology.
There's a literary concept called suspension of disbelief that is essential for fantasy stories. Sometimes you just have to accept the answer "because WotC said so".
The idea of a plane (or planet) having an edge is a ridiculous one, especially to modern audiences
As a member of a modern audience who does enjoy flat earths (and centaurs, and Godzilla-sized monsters, et al), I find your presumption to speak for all of us insulting. Take it or disregard it as you wish.
And I don't care about your history on the WotC forums. What I want to know is why you keep phrasing questions in the following form:
Why would WotC choose to have a plane with an actual edge?
When you know that the vast majority of people here don't work for WotC, don't speak for WotC, and at best can only engage in educated speculation on why WotC operates the way it does. It's not like there's a secret crystal ball in the mod forums that can divine into the minds of Creative.
And the best speculation I can think of, therefore, is that modern audiences in fact enjoy and are willing to spend tons of money on fantasy works that contain elements that you dislike for being irrational and biologically improbable. (Harry Potter? Pacific Rim? Hell, even the world of LotR started off as a flat earth!)
At this point, I'm putting a stop to this whole discussion. This thread is for discussion of the Uncharted Realms weekly fiction series. This conversation has officially veered too far from that purpose.
I'm not locking the thread, but I will start issuing infractions for further spam, flaming, trolling, etc.
To change the topic of this thread, how great may the Phyrexian infection that Karn unintentionally spread to other planes have grown? I doubt that it shall be as great as the Phyrexian infection on Mirrodin, but will it be sufficiently great that it could threaten the native inhabitants of those planes?
Also, since WotC has had two different story installments that focused on Ob Nixilis, I believe that it is safe to presume that they are planning to have him be a major character later in the story, but when and where? I myself imagine that he shall be a major character whenever the story returns to Zendikar, but what, exactly are his end goals? He certainly will not be a multiverse-wide threat, as are Bolas, Phyrexia, and the Eldrazi, but he certainly is not a negligible threat, either.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
So could it be that Bolas wanted to release the eldrazi just to spite Ugin? I mean that would fit his character. Just some sort of ridiculous complicated revenge even after the guy died. I doubt Bolas even knows what they do.
I could also be wrong in this but didnt Kamigawa also have an edge? I could of sworn that the whole plane was ringed by a river and just kinda... ended.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
I have a feeling that Ugin genuinely deems himself Above Good and Evil--not in the sense of only caring about his whims, but in seeing morality as we know it as ultimately unimportant in the greater scheme of things. To put this as another TVTrope, he embodies Blue and Orange Morality, without the slightest intersection or parallel with the White and Black axis.
My point was that from what we've been told, Ugin has a hard time seeing the trees for the forest. Also, Ugin is taking the line that nullifying the Eldrazi might genuinely be the wrong path. Not that likely, granted, but still a real possibility. So, just in case, he made sure the Eldrazi could be restored, if something even worse loomed on account of their absence.
Cultures in reality are quite diverse despite spawning on a single planet, and even if you're super religious I'm pretty sure no one things that God invented all of the world's culture.
If Bolas senses Ugin he could come back and kill him; better to be undetected this way?
As for Sarkhan... It's still up in the air.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Well this clears some things up, Alara and Zendikar will still have a "Sarkhan" in them and events will go the exact same as before for those planes.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
According to 5colors looks like I guessed rights on the results but not the mecanics
Now on to the slice of life and amd windows to another world stories.
Perhaps yasova would leave a message for sarkhan.
Besides if Sarkhan was a name given in jest then will we get to find out what is Sarkhan's name? Could it be his planeswalker name like how a warname function. If he does live up to his name maybe Chandra is the next of the ugin eye 3 to be a planeswalking political figure. After mending it seems like the planes walker fit the plane the call their own rather than having their plane fit their whims.
Also somebody might have pointed out the opening lines of the khans of tarkir trailer with sarkhan stating he never been born.
Strangely in one of the UR Sarkhan have a grandfather at some point
or he's changed the future to the point where he wasn't born but some how is still alive.
At this point, is it safe to presume that Bolas sought to kill Ugin because he wished to eliminate any being who could potentially rival him in power?
The ending of the most recent story, in which Sarkhan is "whisked away by temporal forces" is again evidence, in my mind, that time travel is a dangerous element and should never be used in stories. I still say that Ugin and the other dragons should have simply been revived in the present time after the Khans of Tarkir set, but, apparently, the people at WotC did not agree with that. What is even most unusual is that Mark Rosewater even acknowledge, in an article today, that time travel is a dangerous element that should never be toyed with, yet that is exactly what happens in this set. Why is he not taking his own advice?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Where it was said that there were not always dragons on Tarkir? I might have missed that.
Yup, pretty much. Essentially, Bolas does not want anyone too similar to him alive (dragon, planeswalker, powerful, etc...)
MaRo is the Head Designer, not Head of Creative.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Since when are story writers not letting their characters do things that they themselves would never do?
Because he isn't a member of the creative team? You'll notice a lack of time travel stories while MaRo was a writer for Roseanne, though.
Also MaRo believes that time travel is a bad idea not that time travel makes for bad stories.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
As to the other, even if it is based on ancient Greece, it doesn't mean it IS ancient Greece. It's Theros and the rules are different.
I have not read the book of the Theros block, so I would not be familiar with that part of the story.
Why would WotC choose to have a plane with an actual edge? The idea of a plane (or planet) having an edge is a ridiculous one, especially to modern audiences, for whom the idea of a spherical Earth is the default diea.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
What's ridiculous about a plane being a plane?
It's in the Planeswalker's guide.
And why is "it sounded cool and it's fantasy so Earth physics don't have to be followed 100%" not sufficient for you? I'm sorry that you have such a limited imagination that you think it's "ridiculous" that modern audiences could possibly enjoy a fantasy story that doesn't use the default conception of what a plane/planet should look like.*
I've noticed you keep asking "Why would WotC do [thing I don't like]?" You do realize that WotC representatives have their own not-MTGS boards that they sometimes answer fan questions on, right? I don't understand how you think you'll get productive answers by asking a bunch of not-WotC people these questions.
*Including one of my favorite fantasy series that has sold millions of books worldwide.
Moderator Action: Verbal Warning for Flaming
It's fine to attack a person's *ideas*. It's not acceptable to attack the *person*. Please keep things civil.
~kaburi
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
I joined this forums, because I prefer fan forums over the official forums. That preference dates back to when I was much younger, and had just started playing Dungeons & Dragonswith the release of that game's third edition. I was a member of the official WotC forums, where I discussed the game, but then, one day, I discovered, by chance, a fan community known as Dicefreaks, and I found that I enjoyed that community more than WotC's official community, in no small part because its members had their own re-interpretations of various elements of the game, most notably the archfiends, who, in my mind, are very weak in WotC's official textbooks.
Similarly, since this forum has a section for custom card creation, I joined it, because I wished to share my own custom card ideas with other players of this game, and I was hoping to feel a sense of community and belonging here. I give my best effort to be polite and friendly to everyone with whom I interact, so I do not see what problem there is with expressing my own opinion, especially since I understand that it is only my own opinion, and that other people may not agree with it.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Very little in this game conforms to our universe's laws of physics and/or biology.
There's a literary concept called suspension of disbelief that is essential for fantasy stories. Sometimes you just have to accept the answer "because WotC said so".
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
As a member of a modern audience who does enjoy flat earths (and centaurs, and Godzilla-sized monsters, et al), I find your presumption to speak for all of us insulting. Take it or disregard it as you wish.
And I don't care about your history on the WotC forums. What I want to know is why you keep phrasing questions in the following form:
When you know that the vast majority of people here don't work for WotC, don't speak for WotC, and at best can only engage in educated speculation on why WotC operates the way it does. It's not like there's a secret crystal ball in the mod forums that can divine into the minds of Creative.
And the best speculation I can think of, therefore, is that modern audiences in fact enjoy and are willing to spend tons of money on fantasy works that contain elements that you dislike for being irrational and biologically improbable. (Harry Potter? Pacific Rim? Hell, even the world of LotR started off as a flat earth!)
Avatar by Numotflame96 of Maelstrom Graphics
Sig banner thanks to DarkNightCavalier of Heroes of the Plane Studios!
I'm not locking the thread, but I will start issuing infractions for further spam, flaming, trolling, etc.
@_kaburi_ on Twitter
Special thanks to Serrot_29 for Catbug'mrakul!
Also, since WotC has had two different story installments that focused on Ob Nixilis, I believe that it is safe to presume that they are planning to have him be a major character later in the story, but when and where? I myself imagine that he shall be a major character whenever the story returns to Zendikar, but what, exactly are his end goals? He certainly will not be a multiverse-wide threat, as are Bolas, Phyrexia, and the Eldrazi, but he certainly is not a negligible threat, either.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I could also be wrong in this but didnt Kamigawa also have an edge? I could of sworn that the whole plane was ringed by a river and just kinda... ended.
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH