I'm pretty sure he first dargonned before he even left Tarkir, I feel like I read somewhere that that was what ignited his spark
More importantly, do we have a ship name yet? Sarset? Narkhan?
But unless Ugin is his own grandfather, he has to have somehow been born/made, and all the information we've been given says he's native to Tarkir. If he's the cause of the dragon storms, he has to have predated them, which means dragons (or at least one dragon) have (has) to have naturally occurred at some point.
True.
But if the dragons of old are extinct, then that's just natural selection at work.
Nicol Bolas helped seal the time rifts during the Time Spiral block. Maybe he killed Ugin because he felt that keeping the Eldrazi alive for the sake of 'research' would be too detrimental. Screw the environment of the multi-verse!
Yes. Congratulations on predicting the cheapest cop-out that Wizards were going to do, despite it goes against majority of known facts.
How is Ugin being an elder dragon a "cop-out," to use your word? And to what "facts" are you referring?
Because for some fifteen real years, there were no other known survivors of the Elder Dragon race. But when you need a good-aligned archnemesis for Bolas, *whoosh-ping*, here is a so far unknown Elder Dragon who was here the whole time, just hiding.
Well, I mean a good explanation is that he wasn't hiding, he was dead for the events of the last 15 years (our time, as I guess he'd be alive during Kamigawa Block). For the last 15 years, how many times have any of the Elder Dragons (besides Bolas) mattered to the story? How much have any non-Dominarian planes mattered until Kamigawa? It's also possible that he didn't survive the war, as he's a spirit now. How much of that is due to his transcending color and how much of that is due to him losing his physical form is up in the air.
The seeds for Ugin were laid nearly 10 years ago, and Fate Reforged is just expanding on what was presented in Ghostfire all those years ago (seriously, down to the explanation for the tattoos).
Besides which, if Elder Dragons spawn lesser Dragons, it makes sense that every plane in the multiverse with Dragons had to have an Elder Dragon living there for a while at one point, right?
It might also be helpful is someone updated the wiki, because the article on the Elder Dragon War was about three sentences long, and the Dragons article has a passage like this:
There is some debate about how many Elder Dragons actually survived. We know for sure that the siblings Nicol Bolas, Chromium Rhuell, Arcades Sabboth, Palladia-Mors, and their cousin Vaevictis Asmadi survived, but were there any others? Some prerevisionist lore says there were none, and that Piru was a Lesser Elder, but it seems unlikely that a race as powerful as the dragons could arise from five close relatives. It could be that the five Elder Dragon Legends were simply the most prominent of the survivors. Presently, Nicol Bolas is the only known Elder Dragon that still lives and is the most powerful of the Elder Dragons.
I've always been under the impression that the Legends Five were only relevant because they were the Dominarian survivors, and everyone else was either in hiding or very removed from Dominaria.
Also, Side Note: I Liked someone's idea from a few pages back, where Bolas is basically Darth Vader purging other Elder Dragons he comes across.
It was very explicitly stated, multiple times, that the humans and other humanoid races of Tarkir had hunted them to extinction.
Yes. And they hunted them into extinction also because they what? They did not procreate anymore and could not replenish their numbers.
That is an assumption, we have hunted plenty of species to extinction in the real world and they could still procreate.
It could also be true that because the Dragon Storms will (presumably) still exist in Tarkir going forward that it becomes impossible to hunt them to extinction because they don't have to rely on the slower process of procreation.
I've always been under the impression that the Legends Five were only relevant because they were the Dominarian survivors, and everyone else was either in hiding or very removed from Dominaria.
Dominaria is apparently younger than the Elder Dragon War since Bolas dueling the Demonic Leviathan was basically the first major event on Dominaria.
I've always been under the impression that the Legends Five were only relevant because they were the Dominarian survivors, and everyone else was either in hiding or very removed from Dominaria.
Dominaria is apparently younger than the Elder Dragon War since Bolas dueling the Demonic Leviathan was basically the first major event on Dominaria.
In what book or media can I find stories related to the Elder Dragons/Elder Dragon Wars? Rather than operating off Wiki knowledge, I'd like to brush up on the lore.
Ugin being a hidden sixth Elder Dragon fits in very well with everything we know about him. His signature spell, Ghostfire, is basically invisible fire. He's also heavily associated with Manifest and Morph, also forms of concealment. If you look at the two versions of Mastery of the Unseen and Ugin's Construct, he's even capable of turning himself invisible. Being an Elder Dragon and a Planeswalker its possible he just cast a giant spell over the entire plane of Tarkir to hide it. He could just do this again so that altering the events on Tarkir has no effect on the rest of the Multiverse because no other Planeswalker would be able to see it much less get to it.
In what book or media can I find stories related to the Elder Dragons/Elder Dragon Wars? Rather than operating off Wiki knowledge, I'd like to brush up on the lore.
The Elder Dragon comics are pre-rev, but those are the only ones that deal with the relationship between the survivors.
Time Spiral is where we learn Bolas is older than Dominaria and outlines the creation of the Talon Gates because of the aforementioned duel.
In what book or media can I find stories related to the Elder Dragons/Elder Dragon Wars? Rather than operating off Wiki knowledge, I'd like to brush up on the lore.
The Elder Dragon comics are pre-rev, but those are the only ones that deal with the relationship between the survivors.
Time Spiral is where we learn Bolas is older than Dominaria and outlines the creation of the Talon Gates because of the aforementioned duel.
So, wait. Doesn't pre-revisionist mean it was already retconned? Or at least:
Wizards of the Coast's stance on continuity is that any elements of the Harper Prism books which are not in conflict with revisionist storylines should be considered official canon.
So, wait. Doesn't pre-revisionist mean it was already retconned? Or at least:
Wizards of the Coast's stance on continuity is that any elements of the Harper Prism books which are not in conflict with revisionist storylines should be considered official canon.
Well, it was the Acclaim comics rather than Harper Prism, but they did work much closer with creative in those days than the Harper Prism did.
But basically, yes, unless otherwise contradicted by newer material, they are canon.
now, there is finally someone in the story whose power rivals that of Bolas, but who is not evil.
I always saw Sorin filling the role of Big Good for Magic's story. He's the only one setting millennia-long plans into place from the good guys' side, just as Bolas does for the bad guys. Sorin's also the only one whose goals are largely good that seems to be pragmatic enough to be a match for the kind of chessmaster Nicky is. As far as raw power goes, Sorin seems to be pretty up there. I've been waiting for him to come into conflict with Bolas, but it seems they want that to be reserved for Ugin.
Alternately, WotC used poor word choice to denote that Ugin and Bolas are both "old" dragons. Ugin is not necessarily a "Creature--Elder Dragon." I know it may be frustrating, but if it's never mentioned again, we can all go back to assuming Ugin is just old/"elder."
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
Unless Ugin created Tarkir, the plane has existed before him and had no dragons. The Guide says the storms are a result of Ugin's magic, just as building and infrastructure are results of humanity being on Earth. Does that mean Earth ALWAYS had buildings or that they're an integral part of the planet's ecosystem? No, because the Earth preexists us, and did pretty well without buildings.
The Guide further mentions that even with the dragons thrre, clan to clan warfare is still a thing, and humans are battling to survive. Not "thrive," but "survive". Truly these artifically-made dragons are integral to the plane!
Except that the dragons aren't artificial, and are nothing like buildings or infrastructure. They're a naturally occurring product of Ugin's presence on the plane. Like, I said, he isn't going out and constructing them like buildings. They just happen. Saying they're unnatural is like saying that the oils that build up on human skin and get left on everything we touch are unnatural.
Saying that Tarkir doesn't need dragons is like saying that Earth doesn't need tigers. Sure, they might not have been around from the very beginning, but that doesn't mean they haven't evolved into something with an important role to play in their ecosystem, or that the world wouldn't be lessened by their extinction.
If tigers go extinct, literally nothing of note will happen. Earth will continue to spin, the sun still emit heat and light and life as a whole won't even notice the tigers gone.
Even if there were some cascading effects and 90% of earth fauna ends up extinct, it still matters not to the world, because life as a whole will continue to exist, just in another form.
What I'm saying is your example is flawed.
My argument isn't so much flawed as it is based on a different definition of "the world" than yours. I suppose "the world as we know it" would be a more correct version of what I mean when I say "the world". Because, I, like a lot of people I imagine, would consider something that killed all human life to be "the end of the world", while you apparently would not so long as the earth itself kept orbiting the sun every year. But even putting that all aside, my argument still isn't flawed because I never said tiger extinction would end the world, I said it would lessen it. Tigers are beautiful, wonderful animals with a part to play on our planet, just like every other animal. And while the world would continue to exist without them, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a little less wonderful a place because of their absence.
Agriculture wasn't always something present on Earth - does it mean saying we need it is BS?
Agriculture wasn't always on earth, and earth doesn't need agriculture to continue existing.
Not even humanity needs agriculture, because humanity was around before that.
BUT agriculture made civilization possible. Without agriculture we wouldn't be able to build permanent settlements. So only civilization needs agriculture, and guess what, agriculture directly lead to civilization.
What I'm saying is your argument is flawed.
We might not NEED agriculture, but that doesn't mean it doesn't improve our lives. And in light of how many people are dead set on proving that Tarkir doesn't NEED dragons, I'm willing to concede that the plane (probably*) isn't going to implode if it goes without dragons for too long, but that doesn't mean that the presence of dragons won't improve it in some ways.
*This is a joke, please don't get mad at me for jokingly suggesting that Tarkir might actually implode
I always saw Sorin filling the role of Big Good for Magic's story. He's the only one setting millennia-long plans into place from the good guys' side, just as Bolas does for the bad guys. Sorin's also the only one whose goals are largely good that seems to be pragmatic enough to be a match for the kind of chessmaster Nicky is. As far as raw power goes, Sorin seems to be pretty up there. I've been waiting for him to come into conflict with Bolas, but it seems they want that to be reserved for Ugin.
I am sorry, but I must disagree with you about that; while Sorin certainly is not as evil as is Bolas, he is not a shining exemplar of virtue or heroism, either, in my opinion. He cares about himself, first and foremost, and the only reason that he assisted with the imprisonment of the Eldrazi was because they were too great a threat to the entire multiverse to be left free to roam. That makes me wonder if he was around at the time of the original Phyrexia, and, if he was, what opinion he had of Phyrexia, which was another major threat to the entire multiverse.
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I always saw Sorin filling the role of Big Good for Magic's story. He's the only one setting millennia-long plans into place from the good guys' side, just as Bolas does for the bad guys. Sorin's also the only one whose goals are largely good that seems to be pragmatic enough to be a match for the kind of chessmaster Nicky is. As far as raw power goes, Sorin seems to be pretty up there. I've been waiting for him to come into conflict with Bolas, but it seems they want that to be reserved for Ugin.
I am sorry, but I must disagree with you about that; while Sorin certainly is not as evil as is Bolas, he is not a shining exemplar of virtue or heroism, either, in my opinion. He cares about himself, first and foremost, and the only reason that he assisted with the imprisonment of the Eldrazi was because they were too great a threat to the entire multiverse to be left free to roam. That makes me wonder if he was around at the time of the original Phyrexia, and, if he was, what opinion he had of Phyrexia, which was another major threat to the entire multiverse.
If I remember correctly, Phyrexia isn't generally seen as a massive threat because:
a) walkers were insanely powerful (possibly to the point of arrogance)
b) most walkers who care about a plane do so for a single plane. They simply don't care for the multiverse at large. I think Ugin is the first we have ever seen to do so. Sorin and Urza were both in the end looking out for Innistrad and Dominaria respectively
c) phyrexia, while being a massive potential threat, isn't a very active one. It's subtlety is why it is dangerous. It also spreads slowly.
There is something else that I've observed, though at the moment it is still very very early to make any sort of deduction one way or another, but I do find it interesting all the same. It might end up being nothing of any consequence, but I want all of you to look through the cards spoiled so far. None of the clan mechanics have appeared on the enemy color of the clan.
Still really early, so that might change, but if it doesn't, that would speak volumes about the direction they are likely taking things.
Well we just got the Temur aligned Frost Walker. Still I think your right that the enemy color cards will be in smaller amounts and probably won't have the clan/brood mechanic.
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Except that the dragons aren't artificial, and are nothing like buildings or infrastructure. They're a naturally occurring product of Ugin's presence on the plane. Like, I said, he isn't going out and constructing them like buildings. They just happen. Saying they're unnatural is like saying that the oils that build up on human skin and get left on everything we touch are unnatural.
Yes, and pollution is a naturally-occurring product of aerosol products, vehicles and factories. Clearly these things are natural and have been around in the same amounts and rate of production since even before humanity existed. Clearly.
Sarcasm aside, Ugin's magic's byproduct is dragons. Unless Ugin created Tarkir, it means dragons came into existence because of him. This means Tarkir didn't always have Ugin's dragons. This means Tarkir can survive without Ugin's dragons. This means that "THIS IS HOW LIFE SHOULD BE!!!!" is wrong.
I always saw Sorin filling the role of Big Good for Magic's story. He's the only one setting millennia-long plans into place from the good guys' side, just as Bolas does for the bad guys. Sorin's also the only one whose goals are largely good that seems to be pragmatic enough to be a match for the kind of chessmaster Nicky is. As far as raw power goes, Sorin seems to be pretty up there. I've been waiting for him to come into conflict with Bolas, but it seems they want that to be reserved for Ugin.
I am sorry, but I must disagree with you about that; while Sorin certainly is not as evil as is Bolas, he is not a shining exemplar of virtue or heroism, either, in my opinion. He cares about himself, first and foremost, and the only reason that he assisted with the imprisonment of the Eldrazi was because they were too great a threat to the entire multiverse to be left free to roam. That makes me wonder if he was around at the time of the original Phyrexia, and, if he was, what opinion he had of Phyrexia, which was another major threat to the entire multiverse.
Sorin came out of his "go around the multiverse partying" phase apparently thousands of years ago. Now he just goes around manipulating things to make sure there's balance. He isn't "good" in the sense that he'll jump in front of a bullet for someone, but is "good" in the sense that he'd go out of his way to save a million lives rather than letting them die. A side-effect of living thousands of years and seeing thousands of different civilizations is you stop caring about individual lives. See what he does on Innistrad, where he preserves humanity, or Zendikar where he allied with Nissa to strengthen the seal on the Eldrazi.
It is pretty interesting that Sorin's lived about a fifth as long as Bolas, but came to the realization that being a king or whatever is pointless, while that has been Bolas' driving motivation for his 25000 years of existence.
Nicol Bolas, a balance of Vorthos and PowerUBR
Nath of the Gilt LeafBG
Others
Squee, Goblin of AwesomenessR
Nekusar, the Mindblazer!UBR
Vela the NightcladUB
I used to be a world champion, but then I took a wolf to the knee. And three Galvanic Blasts to the face.
Concerning when returning to Kamigawa would be acceptable
True.
But if the dragons of old are extinct, then that's just natural selection at work.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Then why would Bolas release the Eldrazi?
It's dangerous to classify any character as 'Good'. Ugin is a force for balance, which is an entirely different concept.
Well, I mean a good explanation is that he wasn't hiding, he was dead for the events of the last 15 years (our time, as I guess he'd be alive during Kamigawa Block). For the last 15 years, how many times have any of the Elder Dragons (besides Bolas) mattered to the story? How much have any non-Dominarian planes mattered until Kamigawa? It's also possible that he didn't survive the war, as he's a spirit now. How much of that is due to his transcending color and how much of that is due to him losing his physical form is up in the air.
The seeds for Ugin were laid nearly 10 years ago, and Fate Reforged is just expanding on what was presented in Ghostfire all those years ago (seriously, down to the explanation for the tattoos).
Besides which, if Elder Dragons spawn lesser Dragons, it makes sense that every plane in the multiverse with Dragons had to have an Elder Dragon living there for a while at one point, right?
It might also be helpful is someone updated the wiki, because the article on the Elder Dragon War was about three sentences long, and the Dragons article has a passage like this:
I've always been under the impression that the Legends Five were only relevant because they were the Dominarian survivors, and everyone else was either in hiding or very removed from Dominaria.
Also, Side Note: I Liked someone's idea from a few pages back, where Bolas is basically Darth Vader purging other Elder Dragons he comes across.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
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Not really. Alara was years before Theros. Something close to five or so years.
Yes. And they hunted them into extinction also because they what? They did not procreate anymore and could not replenish their numbers.
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
Edit: You're right. I missed 'In many years'. Why can't you just let me be amused
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
That is an assumption, we have hunted plenty of species to extinction in the real world and they could still procreate.
It could also be true that because the Dragon Storms will (presumably) still exist in Tarkir going forward that it becomes impossible to hunt them to extinction because they don't have to rely on the slower process of procreation.
Dominaria is apparently younger than the Elder Dragon War since Bolas dueling the Demonic Leviathan was basically the first major event on Dominaria.
In what book or media can I find stories related to the Elder Dragons/Elder Dragon Wars? Rather than operating off Wiki knowledge, I'd like to brush up on the lore.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
The Elder Dragon comics are pre-rev, but those are the only ones that deal with the relationship between the survivors.
Time Spiral is where we learn Bolas is older than Dominaria and outlines the creation of the Talon Gates because of the aforementioned duel.
So, wait. Doesn't pre-revisionist mean it was already retconned? Or at least:
I do need to read the Time Spiral Books, though.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Well, it was the Acclaim comics rather than Harper Prism, but they did work much closer with creative in those days than the Harper Prism did.
But basically, yes, unless otherwise contradicted by newer material, they are canon.
I always saw Sorin filling the role of Big Good for Magic's story. He's the only one setting millennia-long plans into place from the good guys' side, just as Bolas does for the bad guys. Sorin's also the only one whose goals are largely good that seems to be pragmatic enough to be a match for the kind of chessmaster Nicky is. As far as raw power goes, Sorin seems to be pretty up there. I've been waiting for him to come into conflict with Bolas, but it seems they want that to be reserved for Ugin.
Your mods are terrified of me.
My argument isn't so much flawed as it is based on a different definition of "the world" than yours. I suppose "the world as we know it" would be a more correct version of what I mean when I say "the world". Because, I, like a lot of people I imagine, would consider something that killed all human life to be "the end of the world", while you apparently would not so long as the earth itself kept orbiting the sun every year. But even putting that all aside, my argument still isn't flawed because I never said tiger extinction would end the world, I said it would lessen it. Tigers are beautiful, wonderful animals with a part to play on our planet, just like every other animal. And while the world would continue to exist without them, that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a little less wonderful a place because of their absence.
We might not NEED agriculture, but that doesn't mean it doesn't improve our lives. And in light of how many people are dead set on proving that Tarkir doesn't NEED dragons, I'm willing to concede that the plane (probably*) isn't going to implode if it goes without dragons for too long, but that doesn't mean that the presence of dragons won't improve it in some ways.
*This is a joke, please don't get mad at me for jokingly suggesting that Tarkir might actually implode
Timeline wise, would 1200 years in the past been the pre-mending period?
if it was, what could Sarkhan have possibly done to help Ugin against a fully powered old walker?
And all Sarkhan can really do is pick up the pieces and make sure Ugin doesn't bleed out.
Bigger question, will Sarkhan being in the past affect his spark.
Thank You!
next block. Return of the Old Walkers.
It won't. The spark he has was a product of the mending. Simply going back in time won't change the nature of his spark.
I am sorry, but I must disagree with you about that; while Sorin certainly is not as evil as is Bolas, he is not a shining exemplar of virtue or heroism, either, in my opinion. He cares about himself, first and foremost, and the only reason that he assisted with the imprisonment of the Eldrazi was because they were too great a threat to the entire multiverse to be left free to roam. That makes me wonder if he was around at the time of the original Phyrexia, and, if he was, what opinion he had of Phyrexia, which was another major threat to the entire multiverse.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
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StaffIf I remember correctly, Phyrexia isn't generally seen as a massive threat because:
a) walkers were insanely powerful (possibly to the point of arrogance)
b) most walkers who care about a plane do so for a single plane. They simply don't care for the multiverse at large. I think Ugin is the first we have ever seen to do so. Sorin and Urza were both in the end looking out for Innistrad and Dominaria respectively
c) phyrexia, while being a massive potential threat, isn't a very active one. It's subtlety is why it is dangerous. It also spreads slowly.
Well we just got the Temur aligned Frost Walker. Still I think your right that the enemy color cards will be in smaller amounts and probably won't have the clan/brood mechanic.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Yes, and pollution is a naturally-occurring product of aerosol products, vehicles and factories. Clearly these things are natural and have been around in the same amounts and rate of production since even before humanity existed. Clearly.
Sarcasm aside, Ugin's magic's byproduct is dragons. Unless Ugin created Tarkir, it means dragons came into existence because of him. This means Tarkir didn't always have Ugin's dragons. This means Tarkir can survive without Ugin's dragons. This means that "THIS IS HOW LIFE SHOULD BE!!!!" is wrong.
Sorin came out of his "go around the multiverse partying" phase apparently thousands of years ago. Now he just goes around manipulating things to make sure there's balance. He isn't "good" in the sense that he'll jump in front of a bullet for someone, but is "good" in the sense that he'd go out of his way to save a million lives rather than letting them die. A side-effect of living thousands of years and seeing thousands of different civilizations is you stop caring about individual lives. See what he does on Innistrad, where he preserves humanity, or Zendikar where he allied with Nissa to strengthen the seal on the Eldrazi.
It is pretty interesting that Sorin's lived about a fifth as long as Bolas, but came to the realization that being a king or whatever is pointless, while that has been Bolas' driving motivation for his 25000 years of existence.
Your mods are terrified of me.