On the subject of narset, if she ascended it would have taken her a long freaking time since sarkhan sees her lying (seemingly dead) at zurgo's feet, contemplates going back for her and only then runs into the nexus. Idk if she is dead but it hardly matters since when we return to tarkir in "dragons of tarkir" the timeline would have been altered and a new version of her, who grew on the dragon infested world would exist... so dead or not i doubt we have heard the last of narset...
Narset isn't even an interesting character. She's just Tamiyo, but human instead of moonfolk. Literally all she is is the englightened asian kung fu master trope. There's nothing else to her character. Maybe if they had made her a Jeskai student with more R/W than U she could've been interesting... Meanwhile, Zurgo has already proven to be more nuanced of a character in the brief bits of info we get about him. We argued for pages about Zurgo's character, but what differing interpretations can one draw from the Naraet character.
It feels like the creative team is promoting her to planeswalker just to add more racial and gender diversity. Diversity is good, but I feel it should take a back seat to creating a good, memorable character.
Narset isn't even an interesting character. She's just Tamiyo, but human instead of moonfolk. Literally all she is is the englightened asian kung fu master trope.
Tamiyo is a kung-fu master? Did I miss something here?
The biggest issue I have with this line of thought (in regards specifically to this story) is that if Narset was stabbed, even if she ascended, that doesn't make her any less stabbed. The spark igniting doesn't heal someone.
To be fair, wasn't Tezzeret's ascension kinda like that though? He was stabbed in the chest by a biggish sword if I remember correctly and he woke up on Grixis without even holding his stomach.
I mean, technically I agree with you, but we have examples that make it look like ascension prevents injuries.
... You mean you've never read a character in a story and seen them put so much effort into something that you thought "They deserve to succeed in this endeavor" or seen a character treat everyone around him with utter contempt despite their attempts to be nice and thought "That guy deserves to be alone."? I mean obviously those are just opinions in light of a situation, but that doesn't mean that a writer can't set a character up to deserve the fate they get. It's happened in a lot of stories.
I find this line of thought so weird, so alien, I'm not even sure if I understand you correctly, but yes, I do think characters in a story deserve stuff, based on their actions, but I think a character not getting what they deserve makes it all more emotional. A character who I care for deeply, because they did something awesome, being backstabbed by their own allies for instance is every bit of tragic, but it isn't "bad" per default. It just makes the story feel much more engaging, because you don't know what happens next and you actually worry about your favourites. If you knew that the cool people in a story are literally unkillable, then why even start caring in the first place?
Additionally, at the very very end it's likely the big bad gets what they deserve anyway (though I find Zurgo's status as a big bad questionable at best) but you honestly can't tell me, that the villains of a story have to lose in literally every encounter ever. And the UR was not the huge showdown you seem to make it out to be, it was yet another step in Sarkhan's journey, and let's be fair, the story is about Sarkhan, not Narset.
I hesitate to call Zurgo a big bad. I mean, the story makes it sound like all the khans deserve some of the blame for the current state of Tarkir. I've never seen Tamiyo have to reconcile her UR impulses with the W aspects of her character. Unless I missed something? Overall this was a satisfying conclusion to what I guess we could call the Khans of Tarkir Anthology.
The biggest issue I have with this line of thought (in regards specifically to this story) is that if Narset was stabbed, even if she ascended, that doesn't make her any less stabbed. The spark igniting doesn't heal someone.
To be fair, wasn't Tezzeret's ascension kinda like that though? He was stabbed in the chest by a biggish sword if I remember correctly and he woke up on Grixis without even holding his stomach.
I mean, technically I agree with you, but we have examples that make it look like ascension prevents injuries.
I knew someone would probably bring that up, but he was only stabbed in the stomach with a knife. An unpleasant experience, but more survivable than a sword wound.
Tezzeret also has a question of how much of his body was replaced by Etherium at that point too.
Another part of this entire "great potential" debate is that we have literally NEVER had any other walker that they've tried to hint towards this. People's expectations were still set up when they had no precedent to draw those conclusions.
Narset isn't even an interesting character. She's just Tamiyo, but human instead of moonfolk. Literally all she is is the englightened asian kung fu master trope. There's nothing else to her character. Maybe if they had made her a Jeskai student with more R/W than U she could've been interesting... Meanwhile, Zurgo has already proven to be more nuanced of a character in the brief bits of info we get about him. We argued for pages about Zurgo's character, but what differing interpretations can one draw from the Naraet character.
It feels like the creative team is promoting her to planeswalker just to add more racial and gender diversity. Diversity is good, but I feel it should take a back seat to creating a good, memorable character.
Narset's had like one story written about her and it was interesting enough. She's nothing like Tamiyo, as in has no traits at all in common beyond gender.
Another part of this entire "great potential" debate is that we have literally NEVER had any other walker that they've tried to hint towards this. People's expectations were still set up when they had no precedent to draw those conclusions.
People followed WotC's writing. If there's a disconnect, it's a failure in writing, not reading.
Another part of this entire "great potential" debate is that we have literally NEVER had any other walker that they've tried to hint towards this. People's expectations were still set up when they had no precedent to draw those conclusions.
People followed WotC's writing. If there's a disconnect, it's a failure in writing, not reading.
People made leaps based on their hopes instead of actual possibilities. If there's a disconnect, it's a failure in reading comprehension.
The great destiny was left pretty ambiguous. Playing a role in the return of Ugin is a pretty fantastic destiny. Alternatively, this could be a case where destiny was averted.
... You mean you've never read a character in a story and seen them put so much effort into something that you thought "They deserve to succeed in this endeavor" or seen a character treat everyone around him with utter contempt despite their attempts to be nice and thought "That guy deserves to be alone."? I mean obviously those are just opinions in light of a situation, but that doesn't mean that a writer can't set a character up to deserve the fate they get. It's happened in a lot of stories.
I find this line of thought so weird, so alien, I'm not even sure if I understand you correctly, but yes, I do think characters in a story deserve stuff, based on their actions, but I think a character not getting what they deserve makes it all more emotional....
...And the UR was not the huge showdown you seem to make it out to be, it was yet another step in Sarkhan's journey, and let's be fair, the story is about Sarkhan, not Narset.
(Crap. I had this long post written out and then accidently changed pages. Oh well try again, only worse than the first time.)
To be honest that was the best wording I came up with in the time I had. It's not the most elegant thought to paper I've done. Someone else (not you) had said that character's never deserve anything, and that was just my counter to it. And I guess I need to work on my wording because I never said or meant to imply that Sarkhan was not the main character or that Narset and Zurgo's fight was a big showdown. I was just talking about that because we already knew that Sarkhan was going to do the time travel thing so there was less to discuss.
If you knew that the cool people in a story are literally unkillable, then why even start caring in the first place?
Maybe because you like the characters? I dunno, I get into stories really easily. Even when I watch a movie where the character's are virtually guarunteed to make it, like most disney films, I find myself actually sitting on the edge of my seat, hoping that they make it, wondering if they will die. I've never needed to see a character die to understand that it was a possibility in a story.
Additionally, at the very very end it's likely the big bad gets what they deserve anyway (though I find Zurgo's status as a big bad questionable at best) but you honestly can't tell me, that the villains of a story have to lose in literally every encounter ever. And the UR was not the huge showdown you seem to make it out to be, it was yet another step in Sarkhan's journey, and let's be fair, the story is about Sarkhan, not Narset.
Well to be honest, yes I would like to see the villain fail at every step, but I like good guys and like to see them win. But seriously, no, the bad guy doesn't have to lose all the time. Even I admit that the bad guy losing at every step through the story can be bad writing. But in this case I'm not actually calling Zurgo a villain. In this story(The UR specifically, not the overall block story), he is the antagonist to be sure, but antagonist and villain are not the same thing. I actually said in another post that I want to see more of both Zurgo and Narset. I want to see more of Narset because I think she has a great character concept, though the presentation has not been the best (hence why I want to see more so that they might improve it.) I want to see more of Zurgo because I feel like he hasn't really learned anything. He might have recognized that his actions cost him his leadership, but that doesn't appear to have changed him any. I'd love to see him grow. We'll see what happens.
Narset isn't even an interesting character. She's just Tamiyo, but human instead of moonfolk. Literally all she is is the englightened asian kung fu master trope. There's nothing else to her character. Maybe if they had made her a Jeskai student with more R/W than U she could've been interesting... Meanwhile, Zurgo has already proven to be more nuanced of a character in the brief bits of info we get about him. We argued for pages about Zurgo's character, but what differing interpretations can one draw from the Naraet character.
It feels like the creative team is promoting her to planeswalker just to add more racial and gender diversity. Diversity is good, but I feel it should take a back seat to creating a good, memorable character.
I actually agree here (though I think Narset is a little more complex than Tamiyo, or at least what we have seen of Tamiyo). I think Narset's concept is good (the kung fu master, calm and wise, yet still having a troubled mind, etc.) But they didn't really do much to present her in a very interesting light. I think there is potential there, but she feels like she is fully grown, so to speak. And part of the the fun of following a character through a story is to see them grow, and potentially grow with them. Other than ascending to planeswalker, as people theorize, it seems like there isn't much distance for her character to go. But, maybe that's the point. Maybe her growth has hit a road block as a normal human, but then she becomes a planeswalker and the growth begins again.
I really like your last sentence by the way. A lot of people get warpped up in making things different and sometimes it gets in the way of the story or the character.
Narset isn't even an interesting character. She's just Tamiyo, but human instead of moonfolk. Literally all she is is the englightened asian kung fu master trope. There's nothing else to her character.
...did you even read her Uncharted Realms? She's actually a pretty detailed and nuanced character, and not simply the trope.
There's a good chance that whether or not she died to Zurgo is just irrelevant to the future story. I took the "secret potential" line and her story in general as an allusion to the fact that she has the potential to planeswalk; the Jeskai rigidity has stifled that potential. It seems completely plausible that in the altered timeline (DTK), where the clans don't dominate the world, she shows up as a walker - probably with one fewer colors.
Tamiyo is a kung-fu master? Did I miss something here?
That's an irrelevant detail.
See, Tamiyo's from an Eastern-inspired world, much like Narset. Tamiyo's character, thus far, is "she's a moonfolk that likes the moons of Innistrad". Adding Kung-Fu mastery to her repertoire does exactly that: add something else to her character. In the east, Martial Arts aren't about kicking some guy's ass; they're about spiritual empowerment and is one of many paths that lead to enlightenment. The moon holds similar spiritual importance to many Asian cultures. Instead of going and creating Narset, they could've just added that to Tamiyo's character. We know Tamiyo wants to learn, so the spiritual awareness that comes from mastering Eastern Kungfu fits the character 100%.
Notice I didn't say "Add it to Jace/Liliana/whoever". They're not ill-defined characters from an Asian world. Tamiyo is.
Anyway, what story is there to tell with a character that has reached Nirvana? That character has completed the only goal they had in life: enlightenment. Unless there's demons involved, tempting her to stray from the path of the not!Buddha, there's no relevant story to tell with her. We already have a White Planeswalker character that goes around helping everyone he meets in Gideon, and we already have multiple knowledge-seekers. She doesn't do anything but increase the female and Asian-count.
A truly "deep" (hate using that word in this context) character can be interpreted multiple ways (usually; as there's cases like Palpatine where he's just malevolent but is still a good character). There's only one way to interpret Narset, and it isn't anything beyond the "kung fu master with a third eye" trope. The third eye being enlightenment and being able to perceive things the unenlightened cannot.
She's featured pretty prominently in this story and even got a section of it all to herself. She did nothing there that went behind her character archetype.
See, Tamiyo's from an Eastern-inspired world, much like Narset. Tamiyo's character, thus far, is "she's a moonfolk that likes the moons of Innistrad". Adding Kung-Fu mastery to her repertoire does exactly that: add something else to her character.
To be clear, she doesn't have any preoccupation with moons in general. She's attracted to the mysteries of a world, and Innistrad's happens to be its moon.
We already have a White Planeswalker character that goes around helping everyone he meets in Gideon, and we already have multiple knowledge-seekers.
Also for the record, Gideon ascended by epiphany of his place in the multiverse. Not quite enlightenment, but close.
Anyway, what story is there to tell with a character that has reached Nirvana? That character has completed the only goal they had in life: enlightenment. Unless there's demons involved, tempting her to stray from the path of the not!Buddha, there's no relevant story to tell with her. We already have a White Planeswalker character that goes around helping everyone he meets in Gideon, and we already have multiple knowledge-seekers. She doesn't do anything but increase the female and Asian-count.
Wait, but, Narset HASN'T achieved enlightenment. I thought the whole point of that first UR she got where she quite literally dodges her responsibilities and makes faces at people when she's supposed to be meditating was basically focused entirely around emphasizing that fact. She's not just some koan spewing kung-fu master who knows all and sees all. She's twitchy, and passionate, and has dreams about adventuring in strange lands the likes of which do not exist on Tarkir. I have trouble seeing how any of that could be interpreted as 'enlightened'.
It feels too soon to kill off a khan; we might see her get the spark through her brink of death.
I want to specify a misconception that I've seen around.
One does not gain a spark. They either have the spark or they don't.
I've seen a lot of people around, especially in speculation, that seems to think the spark is something someone can just get.
It feels too soon to kill off a khan; we might see her get the spark through her brink of death.
It does not feel too soon for that. Fate Reforged spoilers are said to start in "late December", which could be next week already or the one after it. FRF will have a different set of Khans, and we don't know how DTK is going to be set up. This one could very well be the second-to-last KTK Uncharted Realms.
I want to specify a misconception that I've seen around.
One does not gain a spark. They either have the spark or they don't.
I've seen a lot of people around, especially in speculation, that seems to think the spark is something someone can just get.
Yes. You are born with the spark. The event of "becoming" a Planeswalker is your spark "flaring" - it activates at this point.
(*and before someone comes up with Karn or Slobad, their spark came from someone else and was transfered to them; it's still something someone was born with. And it happened only for those two in very unique circumstances, among a cast of over 50 named Planeswalkers).
Wait, but, Narset HASN'T achieved enlightenment. I thought the whole point of that first UR she got where she quite literally dodges her responsibilities and makes faces at people when she's supposed to be meditating was basically focused entirely around emphasizing that fact. She's not just some koan spewing kung-fu master who knows all and sees all. She's twitchy, and passionate, and has dreams about adventuring in strange lands the likes of which do not exist on Tarkir. I have trouble seeing how any of that could be interpreted as 'enlightened'.
She's actually quite in line with the Buddhist ideas of enlightenment. Buddhism is all about living freely and in the present. It's about understanding societal conditioning, doing the right thing not because society tells you it's right, but because doing what's wrong inherently, ultimately shackles you. It's about moving beyond "the rules" and being true to yourself. The "koan spewing kung-fu master who knows all and sees all" is just a huge stereotype and misconception.
Tamiyo is a kung-fu master? Did I miss something here?
That's an irrelevant detail.
See, Tamiyo's from an Eastern-inspired world, much like Narset.
So, Narset and Tamiyo are shallow, because they are from an asian-inspired world?
Or are you saying Magic shouldn't have more than two asian characters?...
Wow, I'm not even sure which one is the better answer.
Additionally, Tamiyo does not seek enlightenment at all. She's just curious. There's no big goal to her wandering around the multiverse. She's just exploring, basically.
I don't know, it seems like you're grasping at straws to make some characters look worse than they are, but I can't even see any straws here.
It feels like the creative team is promoting her to planeswalker just to add more racial and gender diversity. Diversity is good, but I feel it should take a back seat to creating a good, memorable character.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Tamiyo is a kung-fu master? Did I miss something here?
To be fair, wasn't Tezzeret's ascension kinda like that though? He was stabbed in the chest by a biggish sword if I remember correctly and he woke up on Grixis without even holding his stomach.
I mean, technically I agree with you, but we have examples that make it look like ascension prevents injuries.
I find this line of thought so weird, so alien, I'm not even sure if I understand you correctly, but yes, I do think characters in a story deserve stuff, based on their actions, but I think a character not getting what they deserve makes it all more emotional. A character who I care for deeply, because they did something awesome, being backstabbed by their own allies for instance is every bit of tragic, but it isn't "bad" per default. It just makes the story feel much more engaging, because you don't know what happens next and you actually worry about your favourites. If you knew that the cool people in a story are literally unkillable, then why even start caring in the first place?
Additionally, at the very very end it's likely the big bad gets what they deserve anyway (though I find Zurgo's status as a big bad questionable at best) but you honestly can't tell me, that the villains of a story have to lose in literally every encounter ever. And the UR was not the huge showdown you seem to make it out to be, it was yet another step in Sarkhan's journey, and let's be fair, the story is about Sarkhan, not Narset.
Tezzeret also has a question of how much of his body was replaced by Etherium at that point too.
Another part of this entire "great potential" debate is that we have literally NEVER had any other walker that they've tried to hint towards this. People's expectations were still set up when they had no precedent to draw those conclusions.
Narset's had like one story written about her and it was interesting enough. She's nothing like Tamiyo, as in has no traits at all in common beyond gender.
People followed WotC's writing. If there's a disconnect, it's a failure in writing, not reading.
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(Crap. I had this long post written out and then accidently changed pages. Oh well try again, only worse than the first time.)
To be honest that was the best wording I came up with in the time I had. It's not the most elegant thought to paper I've done. Someone else (not you) had said that character's never deserve anything, and that was just my counter to it. And I guess I need to work on my wording because I never said or meant to imply that Sarkhan was not the main character or that Narset and Zurgo's fight was a big showdown. I was just talking about that because we already knew that Sarkhan was going to do the time travel thing so there was less to discuss.
Maybe because you like the characters? I dunno, I get into stories really easily. Even when I watch a movie where the character's are virtually guarunteed to make it, like most disney films, I find myself actually sitting on the edge of my seat, hoping that they make it, wondering if they will die. I've never needed to see a character die to understand that it was a possibility in a story.
Well to be honest, yes I would like to see the villain fail at every step, but I like good guys and like to see them win. But seriously, no, the bad guy doesn't have to lose all the time. Even I admit that the bad guy losing at every step through the story can be bad writing. But in this case I'm not actually calling Zurgo a villain. In this story(The UR specifically, not the overall block story), he is the antagonist to be sure, but antagonist and villain are not the same thing. I actually said in another post that I want to see more of both Zurgo and Narset. I want to see more of Narset because I think she has a great character concept, though the presentation has not been the best (hence why I want to see more so that they might improve it.) I want to see more of Zurgo because I feel like he hasn't really learned anything. He might have recognized that his actions cost him his leadership, but that doesn't appear to have changed him any. I'd love to see him grow. We'll see what happens.
I actually agree here (though I think Narset is a little more complex than Tamiyo, or at least what we have seen of Tamiyo). I think Narset's concept is good (the kung fu master, calm and wise, yet still having a troubled mind, etc.) But they didn't really do much to present her in a very interesting light. I think there is potential there, but she feels like she is fully grown, so to speak. And part of the the fun of following a character through a story is to see them grow, and potentially grow with them. Other than ascending to planeswalker, as people theorize, it seems like there isn't much distance for her character to go. But, maybe that's the point. Maybe her growth has hit a road block as a normal human, but then she becomes a planeswalker and the growth begins again.
I really like your last sentence by the way. A lot of people get warpped up in making things different and sometimes it gets in the way of the story or the character.
...did you even read her Uncharted Realms? She's actually a pretty detailed and nuanced character, and not simply the trope.
The debate starts here.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
That's an irrelevant detail.
See, Tamiyo's from an Eastern-inspired world, much like Narset. Tamiyo's character, thus far, is "she's a moonfolk that likes the moons of Innistrad". Adding Kung-Fu mastery to her repertoire does exactly that: add something else to her character. In the east, Martial Arts aren't about kicking some guy's ass; they're about spiritual empowerment and is one of many paths that lead to enlightenment. The moon holds similar spiritual importance to many Asian cultures. Instead of going and creating Narset, they could've just added that to Tamiyo's character. We know Tamiyo wants to learn, so the spiritual awareness that comes from mastering Eastern Kungfu fits the character 100%.
Notice I didn't say "Add it to Jace/Liliana/whoever". They're not ill-defined characters from an Asian world. Tamiyo is.
Anyway, what story is there to tell with a character that has reached Nirvana? That character has completed the only goal they had in life: enlightenment. Unless there's demons involved, tempting her to stray from the path of the not!Buddha, there's no relevant story to tell with her. We already have a White Planeswalker character that goes around helping everyone he meets in Gideon, and we already have multiple knowledge-seekers. She doesn't do anything but increase the female and Asian-count.
Trying to assign colors to her? How interesting.
A truly "deep" (hate using that word in this context) character can be interpreted multiple ways (usually; as there's cases like Palpatine where he's just malevolent but is still a good character). There's only one way to interpret Narset, and it isn't anything beyond the "kung fu master with a third eye" trope. The third eye being enlightenment and being able to perceive things the unenlightened cannot.
She's featured pretty prominently in this story and even got a section of it all to herself. She did nothing there that went behind her character archetype.
Meanwhile, we have ORC GENGHIS KHAN!
Your mods are terrified of me.
Also for the record, Gideon ascended by epiphany of his place in the multiverse. Not quite enlightenment, but close.
Wait, but, Narset HASN'T achieved enlightenment. I thought the whole point of that first UR she got where she quite literally dodges her responsibilities and makes faces at people when she's supposed to be meditating was basically focused entirely around emphasizing that fact. She's not just some koan spewing kung-fu master who knows all and sees all. She's twitchy, and passionate, and has dreams about adventuring in strange lands the likes of which do not exist on Tarkir. I have trouble seeing how any of that could be interpreted as 'enlightened'.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
One does not gain a spark. They either have the spark or they don't.
I've seen a lot of people around, especially in speculation, that seems to think the spark is something someone can just get.
It does not feel too soon for that. Fate Reforged spoilers are said to start in "late December", which could be next week already or the one after it. FRF will have a different set of Khans, and we don't know how DTK is going to be set up. This one could very well be the second-to-last KTK Uncharted Realms.
Yes. You are born with the spark. The event of "becoming" a Planeswalker is your spark "flaring" - it activates at this point.
(*and before someone comes up with Karn or Slobad, their spark came from someone else and was transfered to them; it's still something someone was born with. And it happened only for those two in very unique circumstances, among a cast of over 50 named Planeswalkers).
She's actually quite in line with the Buddhist ideas of enlightenment. Buddhism is all about living freely and in the present. It's about understanding societal conditioning, doing the right thing not because society tells you it's right, but because doing what's wrong inherently, ultimately shackles you. It's about moving beyond "the rules" and being true to yourself. The "koan spewing kung-fu master who knows all and sees all" is just a huge stereotype and misconception.
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So, Narset and Tamiyo are shallow, because they are from an asian-inspired world?
Or are you saying Magic shouldn't have more than two asian characters?...
Wow, I'm not even sure which one is the better answer.
Additionally, Tamiyo does not seek enlightenment at all. She's just curious. There's no big goal to her wandering around the multiverse. She's just exploring, basically.
I don't know, it seems like you're grasping at straws to make some characters look worse than they are, but I can't even see any straws here.
I hope you're just trying to be funny for the heck of it.
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What? You should keep fan-theories out of this area.