The biggest issue I have with this line of thought (in regards specifically to this story) is that if Narset was stabbed, even if she ascended, that doesn't make her any less stabbed. The spark igniting doesn't heal someone.
The biggest issue I have with this line of thought (in regards specifically to this story) is that if Narset was stabbed, even if she ascended, that doesn't make her any less stabbed. The spark igniting doesn't heal someone.
Yeah, but even if she isn't instantly healed, being stabbed isn't necessarily lethal.
It seems like such a waste to have her beaten in this way, especially since Zurgo deserves a curshing defeat.
Why? Why does he deserve a crushing defeat?
Right now he's fighting to avenge the members of his clan that Sarkhan murdered when he ascended. He consciously chose to use the fire spell that wiped out everyone weaker than Zurgo. This isn't a black and white thing: everyone is fighting for a just cause here. Narset was fighting for Sarkhan's cause, Zurgo for his own. Both clashed, and Narset lost. That's all there is to it.
As far as I was aware, Zurgo hates Sarkhan because he deserted, twice. I didn't think that Sarkhan killing the other members of the clan had anything to do with it. But I may be wrong about that. Also, based on his actions in the other story, I thought Zurgo was out for revenge (selfish) rather then to avenge the fallen (justice).
Anyway, even if it really is because of those that Sarkhan killed when he ascended, Zurgo has been displayed as a completely selfish individual with no care for the lives of his comrades, actively killing the ones that annoy him (the goblin and that captain who challenged him)and leading many of his soldiers into death traps. And he still feels he is right for what he did in pursuit of his revenge. He even feels that killing the object of his revenge, someone that most of his clan have no idea who he is, will redeem himself in their eyes when the whole reason they stopped following him was because he was unfit to be a leader, not because he failed to get his bounty. For him it's always been about power (being the Khan) regardless of who he hurts along the way. He feels he has done no wrong, despite obvious evidence to the contrary. He feels his men are there to die in battle at his command, and they should be glad to. That's just wrong, and why I feel he deserves the crushing defeat.
Are we reading the same stories here?
Why is Zurgo still pressing on? "This is all I can do for my people now." 'This,' being killing Sarkhan. Please re-read the Guide to Tarkir also. He was pissed that Sarkhan's ascension killed their brothers, and that's why he wants him dead. It's like you're forgetting White is part of his color identity. Last time he was in a story, he wanted to stop Sarkhan because as long as he's calling himself that and picking fights with the other clans, they'll keep attacking the Mardu, and the story starts with exactly that happening. Sarkhan was a danger to his people, so he led them out to crush him.
The black in his character is pride. Sarkhan wounded his pride with what he did on that battlefield and fled, but Red is the chief aspect of his character. Red is emotions. Zurgo is a man of emotions, who cares for his clan, but has the pride any distinguished warrior would. He's not Liliana, and he's not Ob Nixilis, so don't try to paint him as such.
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As for Narset, he beat her fairly in one on one combat through sheer willpower. I'd understand being pissed if he brought in reinforcements and they stabbed her in the back or something, but they're both khans, she knew who she was facing, and she lost.
I didn't read the guide to Tarkir. (EDIT: I was going to go read it so that I could catch up on what I'm missing but the site is down, so the rest of this is based solely on the story of the pursuit, as you will see.) I must have missed UR the week that came out. So perhaps that lead me to having the wrong reason for Zurgo to be chasing him. However I find it very hard to believe he cares for his clan. In the story where he pursues Sarkhan, he kills the goblin that was mad about his sister dying and doesn't care at all when his adviser tells him that the goblins family won't like him for it. Then when EVERYONE tells him that pursuing Sarkhan is bad idea because of the terrain and the territory, he ignores all of them and consciously lies to them about the reason for going there(saying it was to punish the Temur when it was to get Sarkhan). Then when many of them do die as a result of his recklessness, he gets challenged and consciously makes the decision to kill the challenger (I must kill him so the rest of the clan won't challenge me). Maybe that is all a result of his pride, but pride comes before a fall. He did not deserve to win that fight from a narrative perspective. I am not trying to paint him to be as bad as Liliana, or Ob Nixilis. I'm not even trying to say that he is evil. I am just saying that he is a horrible individual for the utter disregard he showed for the lives of his clansmen. Maybe he wasn't always that way, but he most certainly was in that story that showed him pursuing Sarkhan.
As for Narset, I don't recall saying anything about him winning the fight in an unfair way, or mentioning anything about their combat prowess either. In truth, they were evenly matched and either could have come out on top. The rest of the story's set up makes less sense to me if he wins this fight, Narset dies (instead of becoming a planeswalker as people have theorized) and suffers no negative consequences for his choices, other than that broken hand.
So are we supposed to feel emotional shock or something at Narset's death? Because as the character has the personality and charisma of a cardboard cutout, I really can't care about anyone in this set except the two planeswalkers.
Also, Sarkhan swearing revenge against Zurgo for killing someone he met 10 minutes ago? Bad writing. Yes I know he travelled with her for several days presumably, but to the reader it still feels like 10 minutes.
The creative with this block has really gone down compared to Theros.
I like to think about it more in a "Sarkhan swearing revenge against Zurgo for killing the one person who made him feel roughly sane, who would understand and help him getting rid of such a heavy burden" way. The way I read it, she was more or less an anchor to a more grounded state of mind, a friendly face when he didn't have any, and a beacon of, well, hope for a better future. But that's just my reading, and I share your opinion regarding the quality of the storytelling between Theros and Khans (even though we can't compare them plainly, since we only have one third of Khans' story, so far).
However I find it very hard to believe he cares for his clan. In the story where he pursues Sarkhan, he kills the goblin that was mad about his sister dying and doesn't care at all when his adviser tells him that the goblins family won't like him for it.
I think you missed the part where he fights EVERYONE that challenges him in public. Read the story.
""I challenge you for the right to lead this clan."
All motion stopped. All eyes came to rest on the two of them.
Zurgo took his measure. The man was angry and stupid in his rage. Were he thinking about the good of the clan around him, he would not have done this. Zurgo had no choice now but to kill him."
Challenging his orders in public makes him seem weak to his clan, and that will only lead to disarray. He needs the Mardu to be united, and for that he needs to be seen as strong. Do you see him fighting his dissenting adviser? No, because he talks to him in private, where he doesn't need to seem like a god. He also didn't fight that other guy when he brought up his dissenting points in private. According to the guide to Tarkir and the story, you can take his khanship from him in combat, so he cannot let himself seem weak.
Then when EVERYONE tells him that pursuing Sarkhan is bad idea because of the terrain and the territory, he ignores all of them and consciously lies to them about the reason for going there(saying it was to punish the Temur when it was to get Sarkhan).
Yes, because most of them don't even know who Sarkhan is. Mardu lives are short, and only a few veterans remember him. He needed them to think it was a modern enemy to have their full faith in it. Ultimately, leading them out there to apprehend and kill Sarkhan is for the benefit of the clan, since his death means there's one less guy out there that's ruining Mardu relations with other clans.
Zurgo: "He called himself Sarkhan, and that is why Surrak attacked us. Do you think the next khan who hears this name will laugh and slap her thigh when she hears this claim? No. This will not be the last time we are attacked because of his treachery."
Then when many of them do die as a result of his recklessness, he gets challenged and consciously makes the decision to kill the challenger (I must kill him so the rest of the clan won't challenge me).
Once you challenge the khan for khanship, it's a fight to the death. You read his line wrong. It's "Why did you have to challenge me in the open? Now I'll have to kill you," and not "I'll kill you so you don't bother me anymore."
Guide to tarkir: "Many Mardu khans have worn a bone trophy of the previous khan somewhere on their person, whether they lifted it from their fallen predecessor on the battlefield or took it personally in a duel to the death."
Maybe that is all a result of his pride, but pride comes before a fall. He did not deserve to win that fight from a narrative perspective.
No character "deserves" anything. They're tools of the story. Narset fights for what she believes in, and Zurgo fights for what he believes in.
I am not trying to paint him to be as bad as Liliana, or Ob Nixilis. I'm not even trying to say that he is evil. I am just saying that he is a horrible individual for the utter disregard he showed for the lives of his clansmen. Maybe he wasn't always that way, but he most certainly was in that story that showed him pursuing Sarkhan.
The world isn't that black and white. He lied to his clan for their own good.
Scenario A:
Zurgo: "Oh, I'm chasing this guy you never heard of. Come on with me, guys"
Clan: "... no."
Since they didn't march, Sarkhan continues to fight other clans, and people continue to think it's the Mardu being aggressive and the Mardu keep getting attacked.
Scenario B:
Zurgo: "Let us crush Surrak!"
Clan: "Yeah!"
They track down and kill Sarkhan, and without him out there aggravating clans nobody threatens the Mardu. Maybe kill a few Temur while they're at it. They return to their lands to do their raids and *****.
What respectable leader wouldn't choose B?
As for Narset, I don't recall saying anything about him winning the fight in an unfair way, or mentioning anything about their combat prowess either. In truth, they were evenly matched and either could have come out on top. The rest of the story's set up makes less sense to me if he wins this fight, Narset dies (instead of becoming a planeswalker as people have theorized) and suffers no negative consequences for his choices, other than that broken hand.
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
What I was saying was he fought and beat her fair and square, so why are people this mad?
As for what you are saying, why should he come out of it with "negative consequences"? She chose to defend Sarkhan, the man that slaughtered Zurgo's kin, and he overcame her in his rage to grind Sarkhan to dust. In any other story she would be the bad guy, but again, this isn't black and white.
Anyway, we know that Zurgo gained Khanship by being a great Mardu warrior that led successful assaults on others, and not by killing the former Khan.
Quote from "Guide to Tarkir" »
Zurgo was present at the battle where Sarkhan Vol's Planeswalker spark ignited. Many of their own Mardu clan were killed when Sarkhan unleashed a torrent of dragonfire across the battlefield. Zurgo survived, but by the time he reached Sarkhan's location, Sarkhan had already disappeared. In the aftermath, Zurgo claimed victory and became a hero, quickly rising to leadership over the clan.
when Sarkhan goes back in time to save Ugin, to avoid a time paradox, a dragon must still die. so Sarkhan chooses to die in Ugin's stead. when Ugin travels back to the present (either artifically or normally through the passage of time), Tarkir would be a much different place. perhaps in the new timeline, Narset is a planeswalker and Sarkhan the khan of the Mardu who never ignited his spark.
i find this line interesting:
"Ugin is far more than that. He is this world's soul. When he was lost, Tarkir was lessened.
i am under the impression that Ugin himself affects the Tarkir physically. so in the new timeline, Tarkir's environment might be different from the one we have now. maybe in this new timeline, the enemy fetchlands may exist.
I feel like if everything you say is correct about what kind of character Zurgo is and what kind of leader he is, his troops wouldn't have abandoned him.
No character "deserves" anything. They're tools of the story.
... You mean you've never read a character in a story and seen them put so much effort into something that you thought "They deserve to succeed in this endeavor" or seen a character treat everyone around him with utter contempt despite their attempts to be nice and thought "That guy deserves to be alone."? I mean obviously those are just opinions in light of a situation, but that doesn't mean that a writer can't set a character up to deserve the fate they get. It's happened in a lot of stories.
Anyway, you make some good points (especially after the guide finally came back up and I was able to read it. I don't agree with all of them but I only have one thing I want to make a counterpoint to illustrate my end point:
The world isn't that black and white. He lied to his clan for their own good.
Scenario A:
Zurgo: "Oh, I'm chasing this guy you never heard of. Come on with me, guys"
Clan: "... no."
Since they didn't march, Sarkhan continues to fight other clans, and people continue to think it's the Mardu being aggressive and the Mardu keep getting attacked.
Scenario B:
Zurgo: "Let us crush Surrak!"
Clan: "Yeah!"
They track down and kill Sarkhan, and without him out there aggravating clans nobody threatens the Mardu. Maybe kill a few Temur while they're at it. They return to their lands to do their raids and *****.
What respectable leader wouldn't choose B?
He didn't lie to them for their own good. He said they were going to get Sarkhan so that he no longer poses a threat to the clan. And while that may be the end result, the entire reason he's doing it is out his lust for revenge. Almost all of his actual actions in the story shows that he does not care for the lives of his clan.
I am only mentioning this for one reason, and it's not because "I'm right and you're wrong." Neither of us are, we just look at the situation differently. You think he sincerely had his clans best interests in mind and I don't. We are clearly reading this story, the intent and meaning behind the actions and words, very differently. You have your interpretation and I have mine. And that's fine. Likewise, we obviously have very differing views on what and how stories are written. (For example, I view that character CAN be set up by a writer to deserve a fate, if it serves the narrative. You feel that's not the case because characters are only tools of the narrative.) We view things very differently. And that's fine. I respect your view on the story, but disagree with it.
does anyone realize. until this moment Sarkhan have relationship only with clan which have R identities (Mardu, Temur, and Jeskai)
i am sure it's not coincidence, like Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker triggering Mardu(Raid), Temur(Ferocious) and Jeskai(Prowess) mechanic
Wizards print good rares, players complain about cash grab. They print underwhelming rares, players complain that the cards suck. They spoil the best cards first, players complain about the insane prices of preorders. They spoil the meh cards first, players complain that this is the worst set ever.
So. I think I understand now.
As far as these forums are concerned, WotC can never do anything good because:
Card that is new and probably good = "pushed"
Card that is new and probably bad = "EDH/casual fodder"
Card that is a reprint = "lazy"
Card that is a better version of an older card = "power creep"
Card that is a weaker version of an older card = "worthless"
The biggest issue I have with this line of thought (in regards specifically to this story) is that if Narset was stabbed, even if she ascended, that doesn't make her any less stabbed. The spark igniting doesn't heal someone.
Yeah, but even if she isn't instantly healed, being stabbed isn't necessarily lethal.
Everyone is treating it like it is, which means they're treating it as one of two options. She dies or she becomes a planeswalker. If the fight isn't lethal, that leaves the option that she doesn't die and isn't a planeswalker, but everyone is acting as if there are only those two options.
Having Zurgo show up here is a little contrived to begin with, and there has to be a reason for it. Most likely it was to set up Narset's ascension.
Or it could be because the main conflict so far as been Sarkhan vs. Zurgo, and it's important to see him one last time before Sarkhan's Excellent Adventure changes history. For all we know Alt!Zurgo is a peace loving chloromancer who specializes in growing peonies. Or he doesn't exist at all in the new Tarkir.
People are trying to force "Narset is a planeswalker" where it isn't. For all we know, her "great destiny" is to get Sarkhan to Ugin's Nexus and allow him time to do that voodoo that he do, and that's it. She's a tool for Ugin's resurrection and nothing more.
Until this discussion came up today the concept of Narset having a spark hadn't even entered my mind as a possibility.
does anyone realize. until this moment Sarkhan have relationship only with clan which have R identities (Mardu, Temur, and Jeskai)
i am sure it's not coincidence, like Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker triggering Mardu(Raid), Temur(Ferocious) and Jeskai(Prowess) mechanic
I feel like if everything you say is correct about what kind of character Zurgo is and what kind of leader he is, his troops wouldn't have abandoned him.
... You mean you've never read a character in a story and seen them put so much effort into something that you thought "They deserve to succeed in this endeavor" or seen a character treat everyone around him with utter contempt despite their attempts to be nice and thought "That guy deserves to be alone."? I mean obviously those are just opinions in light of a situation, but that doesn't mean that a writer can't set a character up to deserve the fate they get. It's happened in a lot of stories.
I hope you realize you just described Zurgo, who literally gave up everything he had just to bring Sarkhan to justice. Yeah, I don't think Narset "deserved" to beat him since she didn't have to give up anything.
He didn't lie to them for their own good. He said they were going to get Sarkhan so that he no longer poses a threat to the clan. And while that may be the end result, the entire reason he's doing it is out his lust for revenge. Almost all of his actual actions in the story shows that he does not care for the lives of his clan.
Except him caring about the lives of the clan is why he went to action in the first place. It's also the reason he wants Sarkhan dead. Sarkhan betrayed and killed the men he was commanding, the men Zurgo gave him. Zurgo already disliked him for deserting, but didn't let that stop him from giving Sarkhan rank and troops.
Even at the end of the story where he's by himself, he's thinking of his people.
"The clan was gone, and Varuk was right. They were not truly Zurgo's anymore. He only had one thing left to give the Mardu, and that was Vol's head lying motionless in the snow.
He looked down at his sword, which was still covered in Batar's glistening blood. He loped toward a corpse that had a dry shirt and ripped a piece of it off with his right hand…but stopped just short of wiping his blade clean.
That blood was all he had left. He would not clean it until it had mixed with Vol's."
The significance of him not wiping away his challenger's blood, is that he still loves his people. Remember, he was forced to kill Batar after he was challenged to a fight to the death.
When a leader cares for his force, he doesn't need to be Optimus Prime and be like a father figure. Some leaders are cold and seemingly heartless, but at the end of the day have their people's best interests at heart. Zurgo's core character isn't Black, it's Red. He cares about his people, he cares about justice, and he has his own warrior pride.
I took offense to your original post because you wrote it in a way as if to say "Zurgo is wrong for what he's doing. He should die." He's not wrong. Sarkhan is a murderer and a betrayer of his people. Zurgo has every right in the world to be pissed off at him and to seek him out and punish him. If anyone gets in his way, they're aiding a murderer. Narset made her choice, and she paid for it. Zurgo isn't at fault for her bad decision, she is and she has to live with it. So Zurgo doesn't "deserve" to be killed, because he isn't actually doing anything villainous.
I feel like if everything you say is correct about what kind of character Zurgo is and what kind of leader he is, his troops wouldn't have abandoned him.
... You mean you've never read a character in a story and seen them put so much effort into something that you thought "They deserve to succeed in this endeavor" or seen a character treat everyone around him with utter contempt despite their attempts to be nice and thought "That guy deserves to be alone."? I mean obviously those are just opinions in light of a situation, but that doesn't mean that a writer can't set a character up to deserve the fate they get. It's happened in a lot of stories.
I hope you realize you just described Zurgo, who literally gave up everything he had just to bring Sarkhan to justice. Yeah, I don't think Narset "deserved" to beat him since she didn't have to give up anything.
No I didn't. He gave up nothing. Due to his actions that endangered and lost many lives, everything was taken from him. The key difference being that he didn't chose to have his people leave and He would have had the whole clan march with him all the way if they would have followed him. Also, to be as cliche as possible, justice and revenge are not the same thing. He is out for revenge.
He didn't lie to them for their own good. He said they were going to get Sarkhan so that he no longer poses a threat to the clan. And while that may be the end result, the entire reason he's doing it is out his lust for revenge. Almost all of his actual actions in the story shows that he does not care for the lives of his clan.
Except him caring about the lives of the clan is why he went to action in the first place. It's also the reason he wants Sarkhan dead. Sarkhan betrayed and killed the men he was commanding, the men Zurgo gave him. Zurgo already disliked him for deserting, but didn't let that stop him from giving Sarkhan rank and troops.
Even at the end of the story where he's by himself, he's thinking of his people.
"The clan was gone, and Varuk was right. They were not truly Zurgo's anymore. He only had one thing left to give the Mardu, and that was Vol's head lying motionless in the snow.
He looked down at his sword, which was still covered in Batar's glistening blood. He loped toward a corpse that had a dry shirt and ripped a piece of it off with his right hand…but stopped just short of wiping his blade clean.
That blood was all he had left. He would not clean it until it had mixed with Vol's."
The significance of him not wiping away his challenger's blood, is that he still loves his people. Remember, he was forced to kill Batar after he was challenged to a fight to the death.
Again we read this action very differently. I read it as he finally realized for a moment that he was wrong in how had lead his people in the preceding days. He kept the blood there as a reminder of what he lost, and to drive himself to accomplish what he set out to do lest that loss be for nothing.
I took offense to your original post because you wrote it in a way as if to say "Zurgo is wrong for what he's doing. He should die." He's not wrong. Sarkhan is a murderer and a betrayer of his people. Zurgo has every right in the world to be pissed off at him and to seek him out and punish him. If anyone gets in his way, they're aiding a murderer. Narset made her choice, and she paid for it. Zurgo isn't at fault for her bad decision, she is and she has to live with it. So Zurgo doesn't "deserve" to be killed, because he isn't actually doing anything villainous.
First, I acknowledge that I was wrong about Zurgo's reason for hating Sarkhan. I thought it was just the deserting because for some reason I thought Zurgo didn't know about the part where Sarkhan killed all his troops. I'm not sure where I got that from, probably somewhere around these boards. Second, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was never saying that Zurgo is wrong for seeking vengeance. I also never meant to imply that he should die nor have I actually called him a villain. I was arguing against his methods. You say a lot of what he does shows he cares about his clan in the passionate red way. But I disagree. I see a lot of his actions showing that he only cares about himself and what he wants and as many of his clan can die as need be to accomplish it. When I say that he shouldn't have won that fight, I do not mean that he should have been killed in the fight. I mean that the fight should have ended without him being the victor. The fight could have been written in such a way that Narset injured him beyond his ability to fight. Zurgo could have just arrived and seen Sarkhan disappear into the past and raged at his inability to take revenge. The fight could have been interrupted by someone so that it couldn't continue and there was no winner. Instead it was written in such a way that Narset found the option to go for a killing blow before she found the option to end the fight in a different way and went for it. Our disagreement boils down to you think his actions show that he cares for his clan, and I think they do not. I'm not saying I'm right, it's just how I interpret his actions and why I don't think the story should have gone down the way it did.
The biggest issue I have with this line of thought (in regards specifically to this story) is that if Narset was stabbed, even if she ascended, that doesn't make her any less stabbed. The spark igniting doesn't heal someone.
People probably assume that planeswalker spark is like Solar Exaltation where you just return from near-death experience and become awesome.
does anyone realize. until this moment Sarkhan have relationship only with clan which have R identities (Mardu, Temur, and Jeskai)
i am sure it's not coincidence, like Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker triggering Mardu(Raid), Temur(Ferocious) and Jeskai(Prowess) mechanic
That actually occurred to me as I was reading, and I like the way that turned out. At first I was annoyed that Sarkhan was mono-red instead of multicolored in two or more of Mardu's colors, but now that we know he has at least a tenuous connection to all three of the red clans, I think it's kinda neat.
And anybody who wants to argue whether or not Zurgo's motivations are selfish are not needs to remember, A)that justice and vengeance aren't mutually exclusive, and B) that Zurgo can be selfish and want what's best for his clan at the same time. That's one of the white aspects of the Mardu, the belief in the Horde as a single entity of it's own with a sort of collective identity. An insult to one member is a slight against every member. An attack on a single war band is a threat to the whole of the clan. It's true that Zurgo's pride was wounded, but in Zurgo's eyes wounding his pride is the same as wounding the pride of the Mardu, and that simply cannot stand.
This week's story was an excellent one, with all the major players of this plane's story arriving at the Nexus simultaneously. I highly doubt that Narset shall actually die, since she is a major character in this story, and the story writers seem to be very wary of killing off major character unless doing so is absolutely essential to the story. I wonder if Sorin shall join the others, as well, since he is also interested in finding Ugin?
This week's story was an excellent one, with all the major players of this plane's story arriving at the Nexus simultaneously. I highly doubt that Narset shall actually die, since she is a major character in this story, and the story writers seem to be very wary of killing off major character unless doing so is absolutely essential to the story. I wonder if Sorin shall join the others, as well, since he is also interested in finding Ugin?
It actually doesn't matter if Narset dies right now or not, we're about to do the Time Warp (it's just a jump to your left, and a step to your riiiiii~ght.)
History is about to change. For all we know, Narset might never have even been born in the new timeline.
Sorin is also super unlikely to show up. This is Sarkhan's show.
It actually doesn't matter if Narset dies right now or not, we're about to do the Time Warp (it's just a jump to your left, and a step to your riiiiii~ght.)
So what you're saying is that Sarkhan should put his hands on his hips, and bring his knees in tight?
Luckily, he's already crazy, so he doesn't need to worry about the pelvic thrust driving him insane.
You know, the problem with the "great destiny" that everyone is complaining about is the simple fact that you all got your hopes up and made assumptions that may have been way off base. You set up expectations the narrative never actually set up either. You can't complain that the conclusions you reached didn't match reality.
Really?
Planeswalker Guide: Some say that Narset possesses a secret potential inside her, a power or calling that will drive her to a greater purpose
Uncharted Realms, Enlightnened: I [Narset] dreamt of fantastical worlds and used the scrolls given for lessons to draw them (...) I'm not sleeping, but I dream. The worlds from my youth rush toward me.
Uncharted Realms, Journey to the Nexus: When he [Sarkhan] spoke of wandering the planes, her [Narset's] eyes grew wide for a few moments, but then she nodded to herself as though she had discovered something precious.
The narrative did set it up such expectations. Either to confirm then or to crush them, but they were always there.
You don't have someone 'dreaming' of other worlds in this game without expecting readers to assume that someone to be a planeswalker. It doesn't happen by accident while trying to imply something else.
It never said, anywhere, that Narset would be a planeswalker. You read that into her character, but that didn't mean it was actually in the text.
It was in the text. It was not spelled out but it was an implication clearly intended to be read between the lines in every piece of text featuring her so far. They clearly wanted people to reach this conclusion - either as foreshadowing or to achieve the emotional backlash in reaction to her death we're seeing here.
Planeswalker Guide: Some say that Narset possesses a secret potential inside her, a power or calling that will drive her to a greater purpose
Her greater purpose was to seek out Sarkhan and help him. She helps guide him to the Ugin's Nexus and also prevent Zurgo from pursuing. That's one way to look at it.
The fight between Zurgo and Narset could have been a little more dramatic. It ended up being a 5-second fight.
I am beginning to wonder if no UR writing is better than poor UR writing. Wizards is excellent in writing about the world in general and providing a high-level overview of the characters. But these UR stories don't impress me too much.
Planeswalker Guide: Some say that Narset possesses a secret potential inside her, a power or calling that will drive her to a greater purpose
Her greater purpose was to seek out Sarkhan and help him. She helps guide him to the Ugin's Nexus and also prevent Zurgo from pursuing. That's one way to look at it.
This does not look like a "secret potential inside her" at all.
Planeswalker Guide: Some say that Narset possesses a secret potential inside her, a power or calling that will drive her to a greater purpose
Her greater purpose was to seek out Sarkhan and help him. She helps guide him to the Ugin's Nexus and also prevent Zurgo from pursuing. That's one way to look at it.
This does not look like a "secret potential inside her" at all.
I understand that, and if Narset is still dead or missing in the next two blocks, that supports my stipulation that the UR writing is bad.
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Yeah, but even if she isn't instantly healed, being stabbed isn't necessarily lethal.
I didn't read the guide to Tarkir. (EDIT: I was going to go read it so that I could catch up on what I'm missing but the site is down, so the rest of this is based solely on the story of the pursuit, as you will see.) I must have missed UR the week that came out. So perhaps that lead me to having the wrong reason for Zurgo to be chasing him. However I find it very hard to believe he cares for his clan. In the story where he pursues Sarkhan, he kills the goblin that was mad about his sister dying and doesn't care at all when his adviser tells him that the goblins family won't like him for it. Then when EVERYONE tells him that pursuing Sarkhan is bad idea because of the terrain and the territory, he ignores all of them and consciously lies to them about the reason for going there(saying it was to punish the Temur when it was to get Sarkhan). Then when many of them do die as a result of his recklessness, he gets challenged and consciously makes the decision to kill the challenger (I must kill him so the rest of the clan won't challenge me). Maybe that is all a result of his pride, but pride comes before a fall. He did not deserve to win that fight from a narrative perspective. I am not trying to paint him to be as bad as Liliana, or Ob Nixilis. I'm not even trying to say that he is evil. I am just saying that he is a horrible individual for the utter disregard he showed for the lives of his clansmen. Maybe he wasn't always that way, but he most certainly was in that story that showed him pursuing Sarkhan.
As for Narset, I don't recall saying anything about him winning the fight in an unfair way, or mentioning anything about their combat prowess either. In truth, they were evenly matched and either could have come out on top. The rest of the story's set up makes less sense to me if he wins this fight, Narset dies (instead of becoming a planeswalker as people have theorized) and suffers no negative consequences for his choices, other than that broken hand.
I like to think about it more in a "Sarkhan swearing revenge against Zurgo for killing the one person who made him feel roughly sane, who would understand and help him getting rid of such a heavy burden" way. The way I read it, she was more or less an anchor to a more grounded state of mind, a friendly face when he didn't have any, and a beacon of, well, hope for a better future. But that's just my reading, and I share your opinion regarding the quality of the storytelling between Theros and Khans (even though we can't compare them plainly, since we only have one third of Khans' story, so far).
I think you missed the part where he fights EVERYONE that challenges him in public. Read the story.
""I challenge you for the right to lead this clan."
All motion stopped. All eyes came to rest on the two of them.
Zurgo took his measure. The man was angry and stupid in his rage. Were he thinking about the good of the clan around him, he would not have done this. Zurgo had no choice now but to kill him."
Challenging his orders in public makes him seem weak to his clan, and that will only lead to disarray. He needs the Mardu to be united, and for that he needs to be seen as strong. Do you see him fighting his dissenting adviser? No, because he talks to him in private, where he doesn't need to seem like a god. He also didn't fight that other guy when he brought up his dissenting points in private. According to the guide to Tarkir and the story, you can take his khanship from him in combat, so he cannot let himself seem weak.
Yes, because most of them don't even know who Sarkhan is. Mardu lives are short, and only a few veterans remember him. He needed them to think it was a modern enemy to have their full faith in it. Ultimately, leading them out there to apprehend and kill Sarkhan is for the benefit of the clan, since his death means there's one less guy out there that's ruining Mardu relations with other clans.
Zurgo: "He called himself Sarkhan, and that is why Surrak attacked us. Do you think the next khan who hears this name will laugh and slap her thigh when she hears this claim? No. This will not be the last time we are attacked because of his treachery."
Once you challenge the khan for khanship, it's a fight to the death. You read his line wrong. It's "Why did you have to challenge me in the open? Now I'll have to kill you," and not "I'll kill you so you don't bother me anymore."
Guide to tarkir: "Many Mardu khans have worn a bone trophy of the previous khan somewhere on their person, whether they lifted it from their fallen predecessor on the battlefield or took it personally in a duel to the death."
No character "deserves" anything. They're tools of the story. Narset fights for what she believes in, and Zurgo fights for what he believes in.
The world isn't that black and white. He lied to his clan for their own good.
Scenario A:
Zurgo: "Oh, I'm chasing this guy you never heard of. Come on with me, guys"
Clan: "... no."
Since they didn't march, Sarkhan continues to fight other clans, and people continue to think it's the Mardu being aggressive and the Mardu keep getting attacked.
Scenario B:
Zurgo: "Let us crush Surrak!"
Clan: "Yeah!"
They track down and kill Sarkhan, and without him out there aggravating clans nobody threatens the Mardu. Maybe kill a few Temur while they're at it. They return to their lands to do their raids and *****.
What respectable leader wouldn't choose B?
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
What I was saying was he fought and beat her fair and square, so why are people this mad?
As for what you are saying, why should he come out of it with "negative consequences"? She chose to defend Sarkhan, the man that slaughtered Zurgo's kin, and he overcame her in his rage to grind Sarkhan to dust. In any other story she would be the bad guy, but again, this isn't black and white.
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Anyway, we know that Zurgo gained Khanship by being a great Mardu warrior that led successful assaults on others, and not by killing the former Khan.
Your mods are terrified of me.
when Sarkhan goes back in time to save Ugin, to avoid a time paradox, a dragon must still die. so Sarkhan chooses to die in Ugin's stead. when Ugin travels back to the present (either artifically or normally through the passage of time), Tarkir would be a much different place. perhaps in the new timeline, Narset is a planeswalker and Sarkhan the khan of the Mardu who never ignited his spark.
i find this line interesting:
i am under the impression that Ugin himself affects the Tarkir physically. so in the new timeline, Tarkir's environment might be different from the one we have now. maybe in this new timeline, the enemy fetchlands may exist.
... You mean you've never read a character in a story and seen them put so much effort into something that you thought "They deserve to succeed in this endeavor" or seen a character treat everyone around him with utter contempt despite their attempts to be nice and thought "That guy deserves to be alone."? I mean obviously those are just opinions in light of a situation, but that doesn't mean that a writer can't set a character up to deserve the fate they get. It's happened in a lot of stories.
Anyway, you make some good points (especially after the guide finally came back up and I was able to read it. I don't agree with all of them but I only have one thing I want to make a counterpoint to illustrate my end point:
He didn't lie to them for their own good. He said they were going to get Sarkhan so that he no longer poses a threat to the clan. And while that may be the end result, the entire reason he's doing it is out his lust for revenge. Almost all of his actual actions in the story shows that he does not care for the lives of his clan.
I am only mentioning this for one reason, and it's not because "I'm right and you're wrong." Neither of us are, we just look at the situation differently. You think he sincerely had his clans best interests in mind and I don't. We are clearly reading this story, the intent and meaning behind the actions and words, very differently. You have your interpretation and I have mine. And that's fine. Likewise, we obviously have very differing views on what and how stories are written. (For example, I view that character CAN be set up by a writer to deserve a fate, if it serves the narrative. You feel that's not the case because characters are only tools of the narrative.) We view things very differently. And that's fine. I respect your view on the story, but disagree with it.
Be cool and smile, everyone.
i am sure it's not coincidence, like Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker triggering Mardu(Raid), Temur(Ferocious) and Jeskai(Prowess) mechanic
People are trying to force "Narset is a planeswalker" where it isn't. For all we know, her "great destiny" is to get Sarkhan to Ugin's Nexus and allow him time to do that voodoo that he do, and that's it. She's a tool for Ugin's resurrection and nothing more.
Until this discussion came up today the concept of Narset having a spark hadn't even entered my mind as a possibility.
Gameplay/storyline segregation is a very real thing.
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I hope you realize you just described Zurgo, who literally gave up everything he had just to bring Sarkhan to justice. Yeah, I don't think Narset "deserved" to beat him since she didn't have to give up anything.
Except him caring about the lives of the clan is why he went to action in the first place. It's also the reason he wants Sarkhan dead. Sarkhan betrayed and killed the men he was commanding, the men Zurgo gave him. Zurgo already disliked him for deserting, but didn't let that stop him from giving Sarkhan rank and troops.
Even at the end of the story where he's by himself, he's thinking of his people.
"The clan was gone, and Varuk was right. They were not truly Zurgo's anymore. He only had one thing left to give the Mardu, and that was Vol's head lying motionless in the snow.
He looked down at his sword, which was still covered in Batar's glistening blood. He loped toward a corpse that had a dry shirt and ripped a piece of it off with his right hand…but stopped just short of wiping his blade clean.
That blood was all he had left. He would not clean it until it had mixed with Vol's."
The significance of him not wiping away his challenger's blood, is that he still loves his people. Remember, he was forced to kill Batar after he was challenged to a fight to the death.
When a leader cares for his force, he doesn't need to be Optimus Prime and be like a father figure. Some leaders are cold and seemingly heartless, but at the end of the day have their people's best interests at heart. Zurgo's core character isn't Black, it's Red. He cares about his people, he cares about justice, and he has his own warrior pride.
I took offense to your original post because you wrote it in a way as if to say "Zurgo is wrong for what he's doing. He should die." He's not wrong. Sarkhan is a murderer and a betrayer of his people. Zurgo has every right in the world to be pissed off at him and to seek him out and punish him. If anyone gets in his way, they're aiding a murderer. Narset made her choice, and she paid for it. Zurgo isn't at fault for her bad decision, she is and she has to live with it. So Zurgo doesn't "deserve" to be killed, because he isn't actually doing anything villainous.
Your mods are terrified of me.
No I didn't. He gave up nothing. Due to his actions that endangered and lost many lives, everything was taken from him. The key difference being that he didn't chose to have his people leave and He would have had the whole clan march with him all the way if they would have followed him. Also, to be as cliche as possible, justice and revenge are not the same thing. He is out for revenge.
Again we read this action very differently. I read it as he finally realized for a moment that he was wrong in how had lead his people in the preceding days. He kept the blood there as a reminder of what he lost, and to drive himself to accomplish what he set out to do lest that loss be for nothing.
First, I acknowledge that I was wrong about Zurgo's reason for hating Sarkhan. I thought it was just the deserting because for some reason I thought Zurgo didn't know about the part where Sarkhan killed all his troops. I'm not sure where I got that from, probably somewhere around these boards. Second, I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was never saying that Zurgo is wrong for seeking vengeance. I also never meant to imply that he should die nor have I actually called him a villain. I was arguing against his methods. You say a lot of what he does shows he cares about his clan in the passionate red way. But I disagree. I see a lot of his actions showing that he only cares about himself and what he wants and as many of his clan can die as need be to accomplish it. When I say that he shouldn't have won that fight, I do not mean that he should have been killed in the fight. I mean that the fight should have ended without him being the victor. The fight could have been written in such a way that Narset injured him beyond his ability to fight. Zurgo could have just arrived and seen Sarkhan disappear into the past and raged at his inability to take revenge. The fight could have been interrupted by someone so that it couldn't continue and there was no winner. Instead it was written in such a way that Narset found the option to go for a killing blow before she found the option to end the fight in a different way and went for it. Our disagreement boils down to you think his actions show that he cares for his clan, and I think they do not. I'm not saying I'm right, it's just how I interpret his actions and why I don't think the story should have gone down the way it did.
People probably assume that planeswalker spark is like Solar Exaltation where you just return from near-death experience and become awesome.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
That actually occurred to me as I was reading, and I like the way that turned out. At first I was annoyed that Sarkhan was mono-red instead of multicolored in two or more of Mardu's colors, but now that we know he has at least a tenuous connection to all three of the red clans, I think it's kinda neat.
And anybody who wants to argue whether or not Zurgo's motivations are selfish are not needs to remember, A)that justice and vengeance aren't mutually exclusive, and B) that Zurgo can be selfish and want what's best for his clan at the same time. That's one of the white aspects of the Mardu, the belief in the Horde as a single entity of it's own with a sort of collective identity. An insult to one member is a slight against every member. An attack on a single war band is a threat to the whole of the clan. It's true that Zurgo's pride was wounded, but in Zurgo's eyes wounding his pride is the same as wounding the pride of the Mardu, and that simply cannot stand.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I am still bothered that there wasn't a The Cheese Stands Alone reprint.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
History is about to change. For all we know, Narset might never have even been born in the new timeline.
Sorin is also super unlikely to show up. This is Sarkhan's show.
So what you're saying is that Sarkhan should put his hands on his hips, and bring his knees in tight?
Luckily, he's already crazy, so he doesn't need to worry about the pelvic thrust driving him insane.
Really?
Planeswalker Guide: Some say that Narset possesses a secret potential inside her, a power or calling that will drive her to a greater purpose
Uncharted Realms, Enlightnened: I [Narset] dreamt of fantastical worlds and used the scrolls given for lessons to draw them (...) I'm not sleeping, but I dream. The worlds from my youth rush toward me.
Uncharted Realms, Journey to the Nexus: When he [Sarkhan] spoke of wandering the planes, her [Narset's] eyes grew wide for a few moments, but then she nodded to herself as though she had discovered something precious.
The narrative did set it up such expectations. Either to confirm then or to crush them, but they were always there.
You don't have someone 'dreaming' of other worlds in this game without expecting readers to assume that someone to be a planeswalker. It doesn't happen by accident while trying to imply something else.
It was in the text. It was not spelled out but it was an implication clearly intended to be read between the lines in every piece of text featuring her so far. They clearly wanted people to reach this conclusion - either as foreshadowing or to achieve the emotional backlash in reaction to her death we're seeing here.
Now all that remains is for Zurgo to kill off Sarkhan ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Her greater purpose was to seek out Sarkhan and help him. She helps guide him to the Ugin's Nexus and also prevent Zurgo from pursuing. That's one way to look at it.
The fight between Zurgo and Narset could have been a little more dramatic. It ended up being a 5-second fight.
I am beginning to wonder if no UR writing is better than poor UR writing. Wizards is excellent in writing about the world in general and providing a high-level overview of the characters. But these UR stories don't impress me too much.
This does not look like a "secret potential inside her" at all.
I understand that, and if Narset is still dead or missing in the next two blocks, that supports my stipulation that the UR writing is bad.