I'm not sure if I follow your concern with Ajani and Mirrodin, though, Barrinellos. I assume you mean that from the time Ajani ascended to the time that the Mirran leonin were under attack by Phyrexians would not give enough time for him to acquaint himself with them?
Yes. Basically, from the time he left Alara to the time he found Elspeth on Dominaria, it was NOT very long. Either he barely met the Theros and Mirran Lions as he searched for Elspeth or it can't be reconciled. Even then... it's REALLY hard to reconcile the amount of time Kelly is trying to tell us has passed since he's assuming years rather than months, and it seems months instead of days spent with the other lions.
Not that we know of, but Kelly was pretty clear that he had.
Which poses problems with the amount of time he's suggesting has passed.
That makes me wish to ask: does time pass at the same rate on all planes, or is the flow of time different for each plane? Surely, it would be highly improbable for a day and a year to be the same duration on every plane, or is that simply a detail that we, the players of the game, need not ponder too deeply?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I love how this article implies there is a sort of Planeswalker culture, that Planeswalkers get together and swap stories and secrets about different planes and the like.
I'd always liked the idea, and it's been implied a few times (ie, Zendikar having a reputation among walkers), but it's never been this forward before.
That makes me wish to ask: does time pass at the same rate on all planes, or is the flow of time different for each plane? Surely, it would be highly improbable for a day and a year to be the same duration on every plane, or is that simply a detail that we, the players of the game, need not ponder too deeply?
Theoretically that kind of crap is possible, and I would not at all be surprised to see a storyline where that happens, but as far as we know, no, it does not.
If something of such metaphysical importance was going on, we'd definitely have been told about it.
From an outside-of-the-story perspective, this sort of crap muddies the timeline in ways that are, well, muddy.
A consistent timeine is something that is needed for a crapload of really good reasons.
Yeah, it's the sort of thing where time really, really, really needs to flow at a consistent rate across the multiverse for storylines to make sense. Unfortunately, because the storylines kind of don't, as a result it's starting to seem like time does whatever it wants. This is ... unfortunate.
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Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Tovolar, Howlpack Alpha
Pivlic, Orzhov Informant
Crixizix, Master Engineer
Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
I agree with DVincent that Ajani having leonin friends on all relevant planes is contrived, but that fits with Subbak's contention of the timeline. Perhaps the events of Koth gathering Venser and Elspeth took place a few years after the events of Innistrad, though I'm sure Barrinellos will provide the most accurate explanation.
It's very hard to place Innistrad with any accuracy*, but even then, Elspeth, Koth, and Venser spent MONTHS wandering Mirrodin... but if Ajani showed up at any time after they did, it still doesn't make any sense.
*The only thing we can be certain of is that it took place after the initial story point of Zendikar. The Titans weren't freed for 6 months after that, so IN THEORY, Zendikar and Innistrad could have taken place concurrently, with Sorin leaving Innistrad to attend to Zendikar, but even then, it has very little impact over when Mirrodin took place.
Suffice to say, Mirrodin is just a big black hole of canon where things get sucked in and never fit with anything as a result. That stretches all the way back to original Mirrodin.
In Leonin years, he's close to 30. Sad to say, that IS kind of venerable compared to everyone else.
I have always thought that the assumption that the events of the Innistrad block took place before the Zendikar events is problematic. As evidenced by something Doug said recently on his blog, it seems as though Creative is attempting to move in chronological order as they progress through blocks, so it is most likely that Innistrad at least took place after Zendikar and also most probably either after or beside Scars of Mirrodin. Now I know that there are plot points that would suggest otherwise, such as Dack encountering both Sorin on Innistrad and Malfegor on Grixis around the same time, but I think this is either an editorial error or Dack's visit to Innistrad was in the past during one of Sorin's "check-ins" on the plane.
I'm going to play the "did not research" card. It's been 2-3 years tops and Mirrodin would be... very very hard for it to make any sense for Ajani to have been to Mirrodin before the place became a wreck.
Why? He could have gone there after Elspeth left Bant while he was searching the Multivers for her, maybe? I mean, that would be before the events of SoM, and if he stayed with Leonins Ajani may not have even noticed the Pyrexian influence spreading.
Because of the amount of time Kelly is suggesting having passed with him in these places. It just doesn't work for there to have been THAT much time.
And honestly, the amount of time he's suggesting having passed SINCE then doesn't make any sense either. It's implying he's been gone 4-5 years, but Ajani wasn't even a walker that far back.
Uh, time flowing at different rates can be pretty consistent. Imagine there's a Multiverse clock somewhere, and a day on a plane is worth a varying amount of days on that clock. So maybe because time flows more slowly (i.e. a day there is worth a lot more on other planes), Ravnica would be a great place to meet people (you don't have to wait for them a long time), but a terrible place to stay if you have a long-term project to do by yourself. Of course, there's the question of how Ravnica (which, if anything, goes more slowly than Theros) came to be that much more advanced technologically.
If time is MEASURED differently, that's one thing, but that's not what the implication being presented is. We are talking about actual TIME flowing at a different rate and how that could wreck everything.
Do they not have editors anymore? Its the very next sentence.
Seza's eyes widened, and her ears sprang up.
"Ajani?"
He smiled.
"White fur. One eye. Big axe. Who else?"
She lowered her axe and smiled shyly. Ajani sat up, rubbing his eyes.
"I had to be sure," she said. "There are strange things in the wilds these days."
He does have an eyesocket where the eye used to be。Presumably he rubbed both of his eye areas but can only see out of his existing eye。It didn’t bother me since my father has a similar、though not as extreme、situation going on and it’s perfectly fine to refer to his eyes instead of eye。
It does seem that Digges implies that Ajani met the Mirran and Therosian leonin between leaving Alara after confronting Bolas and by the time he meets up with Elspeth in Urborg. He could have gone plane-hopping for a bit after Alara, but Agents of Artifice, the Dragon Scroll, and Zendikar restrict the number of years that could have transpired.
We know from Chapter 7 of Godsend that 15 years passed since the Prologue (Daxos is stated as 22 years old, and is 7 in the Prologue). I think we have discussed that Elspeth was 13 when she ascended, but that would make her 28 at the time of Godsend... wasn't she 23 during the Conflux? I don't know if this would be able to give us a few more years after Alara and before Zendikar.
The problem, of course, is the Dragon Scroll and how cold the thread would be five years after the events of Alara (especially since Chandra stole it, what, two or three years before the Conflux based on the timeframe of Agents? Adding five years here may be the safest way to add some years to our timeline, but there will be issues any way when we try to temporally plot events.
Again, it's probably a fruitless search for a timeline.
Bugsy, as for "rubbing his eyes," I think that is a general gesture, and, blind or not, you'd rub the skin around your eyes. None of us actually touch our actual eyes--we always put pressure on our eyelids. Ajani has both eyes, but one is clouded and blind. I rather enjoy Digges's writing. And as far as not having editors "any more," I think the general editing has increased over the years (compare Jolrael to Jolreal, Liin Sivi to Lin Sivvi, and any other typographical errors in the previous printed novels!).
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It does seem that Digges implies that Ajani met the Mirran and Therosian leonin between leaving Alara after confronting Bolas and by the time he meets up with Elspeth in Urborg. He could have gone plane-hopping for a bit after Alara, but Agents of Artifice, the Dragon Scroll, and Zendikar restrict the number of years that could have transpired.
Alara really didn't happen until after Agents of Artifice anyways, so that even further narrows it.
We know from Chapter 7 of Godsend that 15 years passed since the Prologue (Daxos is stated as 22 years old, and is 7 in the Prologue). I think we have discussed that Elspeth was 13 when she ascended, but that would make her 28 at the time of Godsend... wasn't she 23 during the Conflux? I don't know if this would be able to give us a few more years after Alara and before Zendikar.
That was the age given, not only in Alara, but also in the DotP, though DotP was adjusted for post Alara. She's 24 to our most current sources.
I think it's a case where someone didn't think out the implications of everything. It happens.
Again, it's probably a fruitless search for a timeline.
The bane of the temporally minded. Mostly I think the details just aren't placed in a place where everyone can get. I know Brady says he kept a timeline, but... well, Brady's gone now.
Barinellos--I know Agents happens later--I meant that due to those events, we don't have much time between those events and the events of Alara Unbroken. So, yes, I agree that we're limited.
If she was 23 during Alara and if we work under the premise that she was 13 when she ascended and is 28 during Godsend, that does give us an approximate 5 years to play with, that could perhaps be placed between Alara and Zendikar. Of course, that's a lot of time for Jace to hang out on Ravnica, but Tezzeret could have been in stasis for any number of years (I don't think we were given a timeframe) on the Meditation Realm. I suppose we could also get any amount of time between Innistrad and Return to Ravnica (or between Zendikar and Innistrad, for that matter, as Barinellos noted).
Ajani does mention in "Mentor of Heroes" that Seza was too young to go out on patrol last he was around--though that could have only been a few years--one year can make the difference between making "the cut" or not.
Ah well.
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I wonder when this happens chronologically. Is this after the Minotaur siege, or before? Since the nyxborn are attacking, this should be after the siege, as the commander in the "Walls of Akros" still saw the gods in the sky. So, the siege occurs (presumably in Godsend (part 2), the Silence is enacted, and then we get this story? Or am I misremembering?
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Dominian Scholar of the Old Guard, specializing in pre-revisionist (Armada comics) and revisionist (Brothers' War through Apocalypse)history
So this week just scored better than 4/5ths out of everything produced during say... Return to Ravnica. The primary reason is that we actually had a degree of follow through with an earlier plot, which is just deeply satisfying.
Aside from that, there were a lot of technical and thematic details that really worked in the piece and it's probably one of the strongest Theros stories we've had as a result.
I really hope that we get some more details of the nature of the gods more than just the hints and open-ended questions that we've received so far. Clearly, the gods of Theros can be created and destroyed (like the gods of Greek mythology), but will gods cease to exist if they don't get enough worship from mortals? That seems unlikely considering that Kruphix, the most powerful of the gods, has very few (perhaps even the fewest) followers. On the other hand, this week's UR seems to strongly hint that the gods were born of "patterns personified" -- or, more likely, mana personified (each god is a personification of its respective color or colors of mana). Then again, even though the gods may have such origins, they don't always conform to the traits of their given color (for example, in Godsend, Part 1, it's strongly hinted that Thassa has romantic feelings for Purphoros, which doesn't seem characteristic of Blue at all (having romantic feelings for a god that epitomizes one of Blue's enemy colors). In addition, there's also a part of the book in which Thassa "ignores logic" (or something to that effect) when she's talking to Heliod and just freaks out at him. Again, not Blue at all.
It may be that the gods first took shape as personifications of mana, but that once they became self-aware, they were capable of free will and no longer bound by the strict dictates of the color pie.
Another interesting tidbit from this week's UR is Ashiok's musings on the nature of the gods:
Ashiok suspected ideas took shape and became proto-deities in Nyx all the time, but were probably subsumed into the existing deities without anyone, including the gods, aware it was happening.
This makes me think that any changes in the gods' personalities over time are due to their "subsuming" proto-deities into themselves. But then that raises even more questions: (1) Do/can gods absorb such proto-deities that are not aligned with their own color(s)? And (2) if so, how do they still retain their particular color-alignments?
Finally, the way that Ephara handled Cacophony seems to suggest that the gods try to keep a short leash on the manifestations of Nyx, and that without their intervention, things would start to get out of hand (perhaps the influx of Nyx-born in the gods' absence after The Silence is evidence of this?).
Anyhow, even though we got some answers this week, there seem to be even more questions now.
Loved, loved, loved this week's story! It was well-written, creepy as all hell, delved into the mystery surrounding the gods, provided character development to one of my favorite planeswalkers, and provided resolution to an earlier story. What else can a guy ask for? Seriously, I didn't think we'd ever actually find out what the boon Ashiok asked from Phenax was.
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Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Tovolar, Howlpack Alpha
Pivlic, Orzhov Informant
Crixizix, Master Engineer
Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
Wait, did Ashiok help Xenagos become a god, or did I read that wrong?
I think what happened was Ashiok wondered why Xenagos would want to become a god when he was a planeswalker and there was so much more open to him then just godhood. Like artfully sculpting your own god.
*edit* Also Ashiok knew Xenagos was a planeswalker? Why is this?
Yes. Basically, from the time he left Alara to the time he found Elspeth on Dominaria, it was NOT very long. Either he barely met the Theros and Mirran Lions as he searched for Elspeth or it can't be reconciled. Even then... it's REALLY hard to reconcile the amount of time Kelly is trying to tell us has passed since he's assuming years rather than months, and it seems months instead of days spent with the other lions.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Not that we know of, but Kelly was pretty clear that he had.
Which poses problems with the amount of time he's suggesting has passed.
That makes me wish to ask: does time pass at the same rate on all planes, or is the flow of time different for each plane? Surely, it would be highly improbable for a day and a year to be the same duration on every plane, or is that simply a detail that we, the players of the game, need not ponder too deeply?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I'd always liked the idea, and it's been implied a few times (ie, Zendikar having a reputation among walkers), but it's never been this forward before.
Theoretically that kind of crap is possible, and I would not at all be surprised to see a storyline where that happens, but as far as we know, no, it does not.
If something of such metaphysical importance was going on, we'd definitely have been told about it.
From an outside-of-the-story perspective, this sort of crap muddies the timeline in ways that are, well, muddy.
A consistent timeine is something that is needed for a crapload of really good reasons.
Level 1 Judge
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I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Tovolar, Howlpack Alpha
Pivlic, Orzhov Informant
Crixizix, Master Engineer
Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
I have always thought that the assumption that the events of the Innistrad block took place before the Zendikar events is problematic. As evidenced by something Doug said recently on his blog, it seems as though Creative is attempting to move in chronological order as they progress through blocks, so it is most likely that Innistrad at least took place after Zendikar and also most probably either after or beside Scars of Mirrodin. Now I know that there are plot points that would suggest otherwise, such as Dack encountering both Sorin on Innistrad and Malfegor on Grixis around the same time, but I think this is either an editorial error or Dack's visit to Innistrad was in the past during one of Sorin's "check-ins" on the plane.
Because of the amount of time Kelly is suggesting having passed with him in these places. It just doesn't work for there to have been THAT much time.
And honestly, the amount of time he's suggesting having passed SINCE then doesn't make any sense either. It's implying he's been gone 4-5 years, but Ajani wasn't even a walker that far back.
If time is MEASURED differently, that's one thing, but that's not what the implication being presented is. We are talking about actual TIME flowing at a different rate and how that could wreck everything.
He does have an eyesocket where the eye used to be。Presumably he rubbed both of his eye areas but can only see out of his existing eye。It didn’t bother me since my father has a similar、though not as extreme、situation going on and it’s perfectly fine to refer to his eyes instead of eye。
We know from Chapter 7 of Godsend that 15 years passed since the Prologue (Daxos is stated as 22 years old, and is 7 in the Prologue). I think we have discussed that Elspeth was 13 when she ascended, but that would make her 28 at the time of Godsend... wasn't she 23 during the Conflux? I don't know if this would be able to give us a few more years after Alara and before Zendikar.
The problem, of course, is the Dragon Scroll and how cold the thread would be five years after the events of Alara (especially since Chandra stole it, what, two or three years before the Conflux based on the timeframe of Agents? Adding five years here may be the safest way to add some years to our timeline, but there will be issues any way when we try to temporally plot events.
Again, it's probably a fruitless search for a timeline.
Bugsy, as for "rubbing his eyes," I think that is a general gesture, and, blind or not, you'd rub the skin around your eyes. None of us actually touch our actual eyes--we always put pressure on our eyelids. Ajani has both eyes, but one is clouded and blind. I rather enjoy Digges's writing. And as far as not having editors "any more," I think the general editing has increased over the years (compare Jolrael to Jolreal, Liin Sivi to Lin Sivvi, and any other typographical errors in the previous printed novels!).
Alara really didn't happen until after Agents of Artifice anyways, so that even further narrows it.
That was the age given, not only in Alara, but also in the DotP, though DotP was adjusted for post Alara. She's 24 to our most current sources.
I think it's a case where someone didn't think out the implications of everything. It happens.
The bane of the temporally minded. Mostly I think the details just aren't placed in a place where everyone can get. I know Brady says he kept a timeline, but... well, Brady's gone now.
If she was 23 during Alara and if we work under the premise that she was 13 when she ascended and is 28 during Godsend, that does give us an approximate 5 years to play with, that could perhaps be placed between Alara and Zendikar. Of course, that's a lot of time for Jace to hang out on Ravnica, but Tezzeret could have been in stasis for any number of years (I don't think we were given a timeframe) on the Meditation Realm. I suppose we could also get any amount of time between Innistrad and Return to Ravnica (or between Zendikar and Innistrad, for that matter, as Barinellos noted).
Ajani does mention in "Mentor of Heroes" that Seza was too young to go out on patrol last he was around--though that could have only been a few years--one year can make the difference between making "the cut" or not.
Ah well.
Kytheon Iora / Gideon Jura ???
Or is it just me...
Aside from that, there were a lot of technical and thematic details that really worked in the piece and it's probably one of the strongest Theros stories we've had as a result.
It may be that the gods first took shape as personifications of mana, but that once they became self-aware, they were capable of free will and no longer bound by the strict dictates of the color pie.
Another interesting tidbit from this week's UR is Ashiok's musings on the nature of the gods:
This makes me think that any changes in the gods' personalities over time are due to their "subsuming" proto-deities into themselves. But then that raises even more questions: (1) Do/can gods absorb such proto-deities that are not aligned with their own color(s)? And (2) if so, how do they still retain their particular color-alignments?
Finally, the way that Ephara handled Cacophony seems to suggest that the gods try to keep a short leash on the manifestations of Nyx, and that without their intervention, things would start to get out of hand (perhaps the influx of Nyx-born in the gods' absence after The Silence is evidence of this?).
Anyhow, even though we got some answers this week, there seem to be even more questions now.
Xantcha, Phyrexian Reject
Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Tovolar, Howlpack Alpha
Pivlic, Orzhov Informant
Crixizix, Master Engineer
Feather, Boros Peacekeeper
Marisi Coilbreaker
O-Kagachi
Gix, Phyrexian Praetor
Karn, Father of Machines
Yawgmoth, Father of Machines
Serra, Mother of All Angels
Tevesh Szat, Doom of Fools
Leshrac the Nightwalker
Jeska, the Thrice-Touched
Elspeth Returned
Crucius the Mad
Taysir the Infinite
Urza's Head (Unglued!)
I think what happened was Ashiok wondered why Xenagos would want to become a god when he was a planeswalker and there was so much more open to him then just godhood. Like artfully sculpting your own god.
*edit* Also Ashiok knew Xenagos was a planeswalker? Why is this?
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