Do we have any idea/estimation of what percentage of Ravnican society is guildless?
'The vast majority.' I would say like ~70-90% range. There's alot of people in a city, let alone a city that reaches an entire world.
I would venture to say that these mythical organizations all have internal people groups in their ranks, and that each of those have their own expressions of alignment through their philosophies and behavior. Let us be fair. I didn't think this was as in depth as I once did, but it makes sense.
Two examples:
The Golgari are made up of primarily the teratogens (undead and monsters primarily from greek mythos with G/B twists, oh yeah, and bigass insects) and the devkarin dark elves. These two, to my knowledge, act as somewhat of a bipartisan system, with themes of constant undying predation between them. These make up the ruling body of the guild, but beyond that are the many workers of the mundane within the guild, the rotfarmers and the herbal shopkeeps. The casual guildmember in the golgari is more or less of neutral nature, as it is their vocation, or their servanthood, etc. The casual golgari deals with undead and necromancy, but also deal with alot of new forces of life. They really are just out for themselves, in a humble way. The warring factions within the faction have one overarching goal, which is in the long run to take over ravnica by means of thriving off of the inevitable force of death. They CAN EXHIBIT neutral evil very commonly. (Not truly delving into their deeper philosophy on life)
I say exhibit over the verb 'are' because it is generalization, and in many cases there are contradictory alignment labels on a guild that both come from informed rational thought processes. Both are usually true, unless one is completely off base.
The second example, for contrast: Selesnya.
Selesnya is a tricky guild. Religion is a polarizing subject. Religion can be executed as a means of brainwashing and total communal control. It has happened in the past. Religion can bring about war. Religion can also enrich societies as a whole, in many facets. Religion can bring purpose to those who look to it for it. The main word in all of this is the word 'can.' Hence, the guild leader alignment vs. casual guild member alignment concept is still very widespread in the expression of different traditional alignment archetypes. Their religion specifically is a means of brainwashing people, and uses magic and life force to fuel the magic of the guildpact itself. Spoiler-freaking-alert. It also grants the brainwashed member access to an internet of sorts, connections through spirit or what have you to the memories and feelings of all other guildmembers. Selesnya's guild leaders very much exhibit the entire lawful spectrum. If i were to peg them down on one solid alignment, it would be LN. Their great overarching goal is pure assimilation, regardless of any high ranking lobbyist's agenda. They are very polarizing. They have a past of hypocrisy and violence. However, their ideals, in context are not evil. They strive to create community and family under their faith. Now, the casual member of the guild seemingly gives up their individuality for the person of the worldmind/lifesong/mat'selesnya, and seeks to further their views, of what they see, as peaceful and generally lawful good. You won't see a selesnya initiate as a defendant of a murder case, but you will most definitely see them fight against the enemies of their faith, under what they view as an overarching cause of peace and the furthering of their religion. Lawful good in the most complete sense. Big dumb paladins, all of the way.
I guess this whole thing is a lesson on perspectives. TL;DR Almost all views on each, although sometimes contradictory, are both true.
Another thing about this entire subject is that there are some themes of each guild and their color alignment that are explored differently and stressed at different levels in both of the blocks we have seen. One may venture and say that each faction has more sides to them then all we have even seen so far, and different faces of power in each of the guilds embody different expressions of their general public. I.E. Momir Vig Simic vs. 'Original Simic'. In history we have seen both righteous and vile faces in every faction of man. Last set the Golgari seemed very content with sitting back and relaxing as they see their eventual victory is assured, with light hierarchal conflict. This set their entire feel is very predatory and power hungry. I guess you could take into account that in this block the premise was that each guild was in some mysterious arms-race frenzy.
Thanks for the discussion so far, i am looking forward to the feedback.
Sure, if by "Chaotic Good" you mean "kill everyone you don't like" (the Boros in Vraska's backstory) or "opression for the greater good" (Razia), by "Neutral Good" you mean "destruction of free will", by "Neutral Evil" you mean "recycling", et cetera.
"They are supposed to keep order and uphold the laws made by both the Guildpact and Azorius. In practice, though, they tend to enforce whatever laws they feel like enforcing, not to mention a few that don't exist, except in their own hearts and minds. The Wojek, a special division of the Boros, are the main foot soldiers in this cause; every district has a permanent garrison of Wojek to protect it. The archangel Razia sends the rest of her massive forces to wherever she deems it necessary – and of course, her standards may differ greatly from that of the locals."
You people are trying to judge guilds according to the real world standards and your own political views and that's really not a smart thing to do. DnD alignment system was never meant for any sort of realistic settings (because good & evil are usually way too ambiguous in them, at the very least), so it crumbles apart once you begin to analyze things too deeply. I mean, by your measures, your classical lawful good paladin will be lawful neutral at best (or lawful evil, even) as he is all about "opression for the greater good", etc., etc.
But you can't use the same measures in fantasy world. I mean, if Boros are neutral for overstepping the boundaries of law and selesnya are neutral for brainwashing you (for the greater cause, mind you, and not without benefits), the who are the gruul who'll stomp you just because they don't give a damn? Who are the golgari, for whom you're nothing but fodder in the eternal life/death cycle? And who are the rakdos, who'll kill you exactly because they give a damn to everyone?
Sure, wizards like to promote this equality schtick (perhaps because tolerance & equality are so big & popular in the west), and so, according to them, all colours are equally good or evil, all Alara shards are a fine place to live, all guilds are equally fine, etc., but that doesn't really hold under any kind of scrutiny. So there's no point to analyze this stuff deeply, it wasn't made to endure that sort of pressure.
"They are supposed to keep order and uphold the laws made by both the Guildpact and Azorius. In practice, though, they tend to enforce whatever laws they feel like enforcing, not to mention a few that don't exist, except in their own hearts and minds. The Wojek, a special division of the Boros, are the main foot soldiers in this cause; every district has a permanent garrison of Wojek to protect it. The archangel Razia sends the rest of her massive forces to wherever she deems it necessary – and of course, her standards may differ greatly from that of the locals."
Nothing there says that they aren't "good" or that they aren't trying to do what they think is right. That's one of the flaws with red/white, it can be a passionate and caring force for order and justice, but sometimes instead you get the arrogance and zeal of white mixed with the single-mindedness and fervour of red.
Sure, wizards like to promote this equality schtick (perhaps because tolerance & equality are so big & popular in the west), and so, according to them, all colours are equally good or evil,
Er...where did they say this?
They've certainly stated that all the colors are capable of good and evil things. But I don't think they've ever said they're "equally" good or evil.
all Alara shards are a fine place to live, all guilds are equally fine, etc.
Nothing there says that they aren't "good" or that they aren't trying to do what they think is right. That's one of the flaws with red/white, it can be a passionate and caring force for order and justice, but sometimes instead you get the arrogance and zeal of white mixed with the single-mindedness and fervour of red.
Because a benevolent person randomly beats the crap out of you or even kills (again, see Vraska's backstory) because of random, made up laws.
Red/White isn't [just] Chaotic Good. Indeed, one of the main characteristics of it is it's inherent hypocrisy, and the Boros have been pretty much set up as main antagonists for Gatecrash (see Aurelia and her paranoia and insanity).
It can be very, very abhorrently evil. Just look at Nobilis of War.
Ravnica Guilds are ultimately armies that evolved into institutions in order to take control of the plane. Their ideologies have been accommodated to protect the institutions themselves rather than just provide services to Ravnicans. Frankly, all of them could be seen as evil (or at least Neutral) in that sense.
Sorry, it was wide open. The initial reason for this discussion was to analyze all of this stuff to reiterate and challenge different elements and accepted views on the guilds as I implement them into my pathfinder campaign, and for others who wish to do so or just discuss it for discussion's sake.
Good is an institution that protects itself from Evil.
With that reasoning, Good is Evil.
... that's some kinda postpostmodern hookum. I had a laugh. But you started out okay. RTR is definitely going this route.
It is not about the institution just protecting itself (from Evil).
It is about the institution protecting itself over others AND often at the cost of others, like the Ravnica Guilds do. That is a Neutral or Evil thing to do.
Each of the Guilds has attempted world domination before and would try again without the other symmetrical factions balancing them out.
True that. Though, once again, it places them in an ambiguous situation; the organisation in itself can't be Good, but they aren't Chaotic Neutral nor Chaotic Evil by most definitions.
The D&D alignment system is terrible. It pidgeonholes characters into roles and doesn't work for any fiction not built around it.
Whatever's the case, none of the guilds fit into the "good" section of the alignment chart. I wouldn't even say that the guilds can fit into the alignment system, since they are not single entities but instead groups of individuals with different goals and methods. Even the Golgari, as inoffensive as they are, are a guild containing power-hungry backstabbers and uncontrolled ravenous zombies.
Sure, if by "Chaotic Good" you mean "kill everyone you don't like" (the Boros in Vraska's backstory) or "opression for the greater good" (Razia), by "Neutral Good" you mean "destruction of free will", by "Neutral Evil" you mean "recycling", et cetera.
Somehow after reading the story i was left with strong impression that those soldiers were Boros. Only week later in the second part i realized they were actually Azorious. Weird. Perhaps that is because they act like we expect Boros soldiers to act and totally not what we expect from Azorious?
Whatever's the case, none of the guilds fit into the "good" section of the alignment chart. I wouldn't even say that the guilds can fit into the alignment system, since they are not single entities but instead groups of individuals with different goals and methods.
I agree. I don't believe you can apply a system of morals and/or ethics (ie Good vs Evil) to an organization. An organization is not a person with a mind, soul or a conscience. It is made up of individuals who each have their own mind, and it's the individuals in leadership roles who decide the direction and actions of the larger organization.
What people seem to be forgetting is that good and evil in D&D don't perfectly correlate with western perceptions of good and evil. People say that Selesnya can't be good because they brainwash you forget that the brainwashing and removal of freedom falls under the order/chaos continuum, not good/evil. Good is more about looking out for the well being of others and society, serving benevolent dieties and religions, etc., while evil is more about knowingly and maliciously committing actions that harm others to either benefit themselves or please a malevolent diety or religion.
From Wiki:
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.
Now, of course good characters harm and kill people, even heroic good characters. You could even argue that they dabble in oppression if they put down an band of orcs harrassing a village. The implication for evil is that the actions are malicious and self serving, and that, for sentient beings at least, the evil character is aware that what they are doing is wrong, and either don't care or enjoy that fact.
Good aligned characters can be villainous, just like white aligned characters can be villainous. A templar who brutally cracks down on non-believers might be lawful good, but a clear villain if his actions are motivated by a sincere belief that he is promoting the common good by upholding the laws of his nation and his gods, and therefore committing a morally righteous act. He's still a villain, and someone that society would be better off without, but he's definitely not evil, or even neutral. If he were doing so merely as an excuse to exercise his sadistic tendencies, or take the possessions of his victims, he would be evil.
The reason people think, wrongly, that the Selsnya and Boros are not good aligned is because they are so lawful aligned that it offends our cultural morality. In western culture, freedom is seen as a good thing (rightly so), and fanaticism and control are seen as evil (rightly so). In D&D, freedom is chaotic leaning, while control and the removal of freedom are lawfully aligned. Both Boros and Selesnya are Lawful Good, as they both crave order and they both are motivated by a concern for the good of society, but the argument can certainly be made that they are in practice detrimental, or even villainous. They also both have a moral code, and a well formed sense of right and wrong, and believe what they are doing is right. By contrast, the Orzhov and the Rakdos know what they are doing is evil, and either don't care (Orzhov) or like it (Rakdos). The Izzet and Gruul would be neutral, because they don't really care about doing good for society, but they also don't care to actively harm it either.
EDIT: I could see the case made for Boros as lawful neutral though, as when push comes to shove, the law comes first, but I still think they're Lawful Good, though as much of a burden on society as a boon
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Azorious: Lawful Neutral (with LG, LN and LE members)
"The rules of logic and order have already made the choice for you." —Isperia
Can't get more LN then that.
Selesnya: Lawful Good (with LG, LN, NG and true Neutral members)
Totally disagree "brainwash" couldn't exist in the realm of good. It can't exist in the realm of chaos. The conclave wanting the good for itself and the good for all is the exact same thing because they want to accommodate everyone in it. Imposition is a lawful behavior, not a evil one. Anyone who believes in object truth of morality might feel obliged to enforce it in one level or another and it doesn't make then evil. Also loosing individuality is not necessarily a evil thing, just very un-chaotic one. Influence people into not getting into violent behavior is hardly a evil thing too.
Selesnya is good because they fight for life, peace and happiness, even through for it evolves accommodating everyone inside their religion. I agree it has stronger lawful then good tendencies, but the good is there because they have a moral system based on mutual respect of all living and cooperating things, unlike the Azorius who believes in amoral order that do not evolves people content.
I think only extremely chaotic people will see Selesnya as "evil". Basically because the free spirited have the principle "people know what they want" and any intervention on that is considered evil for then. If one believes "brainwashing" people is the only path to happiness and they are good (won't rest until everyone's happy), the right thing to do is evangelize because at this point they believe people don't know what they want. It doesn't make then evil.
Izzet: Chaotic Neutral (with non-lawful members)
Golgari: True Neutral (druid-like neutral requirement. I see the life and death cycle as some sort of druidic balance)
Rakdos: Chaotic Evil (with CE, NE and CN members)
Orzhov: Lawful Evil (with LE, LN and NE members. Teysa for exemple seens really LN even with good tendencies but the Ghost Council is surely LE with capital E).
Boros: Chaotic Good (with CG, NG and CN members)
I place Boros on the Chaotic side and Selesnya on the Lawful side because, unlike Selesnya, the Boros doesn't want to remove people's freedom. The Boros don't really care about anything but the direct idea that justice must be done. The quotes about they "imagining laws" is exact that, they don't really care about strict laws. They just want to punish evil deeds for the sake of it. It's Good practicing the anti-evil and injustice crusade without a second thought about anything else. In my view, i see "justice" as a CG concept and "right" as a LG or LN concept.
Simic: True Neutral (any alignment is ok)
They are too focused on a amoral concept to give any importance to member's personal actions. The simic is the guild that most reminds me of the scientific community (switching Evolution for Truth). In the academy it doesn't matter if one is a pedophile mass murderer or a saint as long as his contributions are right. I feel the Simic acts the same way.
Dimir: Neutral Evil (with NE, LE and Neutral members, which makes then Neutral Evil with lawful tendencies i guess).
The Dimir surely has a Neutral Evil core but it would hate to work with a chaotic member. Maybe because free spirit and hierarchical secrecy doesn't hold well together.
Gruul: Chaotic Neutral (any non-lawful is acceptable, barbaric style)
@Onering: awesome post. Totally agree with your opinion, except i would still call chaotic on Boros.
What people seem to be forgetting is that good and evil in D&D don't perfectly correlate with western perceptions of good and evil.
This.
We might disagree on Selesnya and Boros being good or evil in general sense and say that no Guilds are good, but by D&D definition they are indeed Good aligned.
Though i don't see Boros as Lawful Good, but rather Chaotic Good. Vigilante justice is not Lawful.
Azorious: Lawful Neutral (with LG, LN and LE members)
Can't get more LN then that.
Selesnya: Lawful Good (with LG, LN, NG and true Neutral members)
Totally disagree "brainwash" couldn't exist in the realm of good. It can't exist in the realm of chaos. The conclave wanting the good for itself and the good for all is the exact same thing because they want to accommodate everyone in it. Imposition is a lawful behavior, not a evil one. Anyone who believes in object truth of morality might feel obliged to enforce it in one level or another and it doesn't make then evil. Also loosing individuality is not necessarily a evil thing, just very un-chaotic one. Influence people into not getting into violent behavior is hardly a evil thing too.
Selesnya is good because they fight for life, peace and happiness, even through for it evolves accommodating everyone inside their religion. I agree it has stronger lawful then good tendencies, but the good is there because they have a moral system based on mutual respect of all living and cooperating things, unlike the Azorius who believes in amoral order that do not evolves people content.
I think only extremely chaotic people will see Selesnya as "evil". Basically because the free spirited have the principle "people know what they want" and any intervention on that is considered evil for then. If one believes "brainwashing" people is the only path to happiness and they are good (won't rest until everyone's happy), the right thing to do is evangelize because at this point they believe people don't know what they want. It doesn't make then evil.
Izzet: Chaotic Neutral (with non-lawful members)
Golgari: True Neutral (druid-like neutral requirement. I see the life and death cycle as some sort of druidic balance)
Rakdos: Chaotic Evil (with CE, NE and CN members)
Orzhov: Lawful Evil (with LE, LN and NE members. Teysa for exemple seens really LN even with good tendencies but the Ghost Council is surely LE with capital E).
Boros: Chaotic Good (with CG, NG and CN members)
I place Boros on the Chaotic side and Selesnya on the Lawful side because, unlike Selesnya, the Boros doesn't want to remove people's freedom. The Boros don't really care about anything but the direct idea that justice must be done. The quotes about they "imagining laws" is exact that, they don't really care about strict laws. They just want to punish evil deeds for the sake of it. It's Good practicing the anti-evil and injustice crusade without a second thought about anything else. In my view, i see "justice" as a CG concept and "right" as a LG or LN concept.
Simic: True Neutral (any alignment is ok)
They are too focused on a amoral concept to give any importance to member's personal actions. The simic is the guild that most reminds me of the scientific community (switching Evolution for Truth). In the academy it doesn't matter if one is a pedophile mass murderer or a saint as long as his contributions are right. I feel the Simic acts the same way.
Dimir: Neutral Evil (with NE, LE and Neutral members, which makes then Neutral Evil with lawful tendencies i guess).
The Dimir surely has a Neutral Evil core but it would hate to work with a chaotic member. Maybe because free spirit and hierarchical secrecy doesn't hold well together.
Gruul: Chaotic Neutral (any non-lawful is acceptable, barbaric style
Okay, you have done the impossible. You have changed my mind through the internet. I change my previous assessment to match this, with a couple minor changes.
A) I think every guild has members of every alignment. Though the ones you listed are probably the most prevalent except...
B)I think the Cult of Rakdos has more Lawful Evil members than you'd expect. Mainly because of this paragraph from the Planeswalker
s Guide Part 3:
When Rakdos is awake, he is the undisputed center of the attention. His whims are catered to, whether it is murder or mutilation, and nothing is spared to please the master. When Rakdos slumbers, which he does for days at a time, the cult members ratchet down the murder and chaos. Instead, the atmosphere in Rix Maadi becomes political and manipulative as the bloodwitches vie for control. Then Rakdos wakes up, and it's an orgy of bloodletting and mayhem again.
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I am a:
Storyline nerd, sliver-lover, vegan, anarchist, pansexual, role-playing, tattoo-covered, punk kid. Those are all the applicable labels I can think of, I will add more as they pop up.
Current decks:
:symr::symw: Allies-Modern
:symg::symu: Infect-Old Standard that I need to update
And trying to decide what my next EDH will be.
I am a :symg::symrg::symr::symur::symu::symug: 'walker all the way.
italofoca- Selesnyans can't be evil nor villainous? I think that they would want to be perceived as good. And they are certainly villainous. Brainwashing can't exist? Dude, the whole pages of flavor tell you about how malicious and judgmental they are, and how often they brainwash their members and even the non-aligned. If you're going to discuss it here, I strongly recommend reading all the flavor articles first. The fact that you may not want them to be brainwashing zealots, doesn't eliminate the fact that they are just that.
Izzet is my favorite guild. Freedom of emotion and thinking, creative impulse and brilliant genius. Flashy equipment and flamboyant attires. Never-ending quest for discovery. But not all Izzet are like this, some of them are just mad and vain. But I would take mad and vain over brainwashing zealots any day!
Long live the Dracogenius! All hail the Firemind!
Read my post carefully. I did not said the Selesnya was not brainwashers. I said brainwashers can be Good in D&D system. The Selesnya religion is good because it evolves very one achieving a greater good, which is Good in D&D system. The process evolves the loose of individuality and hive minding but it doesn't mean evil, it means far lawful.
About Selesnya being villainous, they surely are for the chaotic free spirited.
You designed yourself a die hard Izzet, which makes you the perfect example of chaotic people considering extreme lawful agenda as "evil".
Okay, you have done the impossible. You have changed my mind through the internet. I change my previous assessment to match this, with a couple minor changes.
A) I think every guild has members of every alignment. Though the ones you listed are probably the most prevalent except...
B)I think the Cult of Rakdos has more Lawful Evil members than you'd expect. Mainly because of this paragraph from the Planeswalker
s Guide Part 3:
A) Yeah totally agree, I just think people outside the norm would sooner or latter be pushed out of the guild. I mean, someone chaotic would have a hard time being inside the Azorius who punishes choatic behavior. Someone lawful would be isolated in the Izzet who constantly break laws in their search for progress. Etc.
B) Well remembered. Rakdos's witch hood could be considered Lawful Evil sometimes.
When a Cleric casts Calm Emotions or Charm Person (which is type of mental interference very close to what the Selesnya do) he does not get Evil points.
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'The vast majority.' I would say like ~70-90% range. There's alot of people in a city, let alone a city that reaches an entire world.
I would venture to say that these mythical organizations all have internal people groups in their ranks, and that each of those have their own expressions of alignment through their philosophies and behavior. Let us be fair. I didn't think this was as in depth as I once did, but it makes sense.
Two examples:
The Golgari are made up of primarily the teratogens (undead and monsters primarily from greek mythos with G/B twists, oh yeah, and bigass insects) and the devkarin dark elves. These two, to my knowledge, act as somewhat of a bipartisan system, with themes of constant undying predation between them. These make up the ruling body of the guild, but beyond that are the many workers of the mundane within the guild, the rotfarmers and the herbal shopkeeps. The casual guildmember in the golgari is more or less of neutral nature, as it is their vocation, or their servanthood, etc. The casual golgari deals with undead and necromancy, but also deal with alot of new forces of life. They really are just out for themselves, in a humble way. The warring factions within the faction have one overarching goal, which is in the long run to take over ravnica by means of thriving off of the inevitable force of death. They CAN EXHIBIT neutral evil very commonly. (Not truly delving into their deeper philosophy on life)
I say exhibit over the verb 'are' because it is generalization, and in many cases there are contradictory alignment labels on a guild that both come from informed rational thought processes. Both are usually true, unless one is completely off base.
The second example, for contrast: Selesnya.
Selesnya is a tricky guild. Religion is a polarizing subject. Religion can be executed as a means of brainwashing and total communal control. It has happened in the past. Religion can bring about war. Religion can also enrich societies as a whole, in many facets. Religion can bring purpose to those who look to it for it. The main word in all of this is the word 'can.' Hence, the guild leader alignment vs. casual guild member alignment concept is still very widespread in the expression of different traditional alignment archetypes. Their religion specifically is a means of brainwashing people, and uses magic and life force to fuel the magic of the guildpact itself. Spoiler-freaking-alert. It also grants the brainwashed member access to an internet of sorts, connections through spirit or what have you to the memories and feelings of all other guildmembers. Selesnya's guild leaders very much exhibit the entire lawful spectrum. If i were to peg them down on one solid alignment, it would be LN. Their great overarching goal is pure assimilation, regardless of any high ranking lobbyist's agenda. They are very polarizing. They have a past of hypocrisy and violence. However, their ideals, in context are not evil. They strive to create community and family under their faith. Now, the casual member of the guild seemingly gives up their individuality for the person of the worldmind/lifesong/mat'selesnya, and seeks to further their views, of what they see, as peaceful and generally lawful good. You won't see a selesnya initiate as a defendant of a murder case, but you will most definitely see them fight against the enemies of their faith, under what they view as an overarching cause of peace and the furthering of their religion. Lawful good in the most complete sense. Big dumb paladins, all of the way.
I guess this whole thing is a lesson on perspectives. TL;DR Almost all views on each, although sometimes contradictory, are both true.
Another thing about this entire subject is that there are some themes of each guild and their color alignment that are explored differently and stressed at different levels in both of the blocks we have seen. One may venture and say that each faction has more sides to them then all we have even seen so far, and different faces of power in each of the guilds embody different expressions of their general public. I.E. Momir Vig Simic vs. 'Original Simic'. In history we have seen both righteous and vile faces in every faction of man. Last set the Golgari seemed very content with sitting back and relaxing as they see their eventual victory is assured, with light hierarchal conflict. This set their entire feel is very predatory and power hungry. I guess you could take into account that in this block the premise was that each guild was in some mysterious arms-race frenzy.
Thanks for the discussion so far, i am looking forward to the feedback.
Sure, if by "Chaotic Good" you mean "kill everyone you don't like" (the Boros in Vraska's backstory) or "opression for the greater good" (Razia), by "Neutral Good" you mean "destruction of free will", by "Neutral Evil" you mean "recycling", et cetera.
"They are supposed to keep order and uphold the laws made by both the Guildpact and Azorius. In practice, though, they tend to enforce whatever laws they feel like enforcing, not to mention a few that don't exist, except in their own hearts and minds. The Wojek, a special division of the Boros, are the main foot soldiers in this cause; every district has a permanent garrison of Wojek to protect it. The archangel Razia sends the rest of her massive forces to wherever she deems it necessary – and of course, her standards may differ greatly from that of the locals."
But you can't use the same measures in fantasy world. I mean, if Boros are neutral for overstepping the boundaries of law and selesnya are neutral for brainwashing you (for the greater cause, mind you, and not without benefits), the who are the gruul who'll stomp you just because they don't give a damn? Who are the golgari, for whom you're nothing but fodder in the eternal life/death cycle? And who are the rakdos, who'll kill you exactly because they give a damn to everyone?
Sure, wizards like to promote this equality schtick (perhaps because tolerance & equality are so big & popular in the west), and so, according to them, all colours are equally good or evil, all Alara shards are a fine place to live, all guilds are equally fine, etc., but that doesn't really hold under any kind of scrutiny. So there's no point to analyze this stuff deeply, it wasn't made to endure that sort of pressure.
Nothing there says that they aren't "good" or that they aren't trying to do what they think is right. That's one of the flaws with red/white, it can be a passionate and caring force for order and justice, but sometimes instead you get the arrogance and zeal of white mixed with the single-mindedness and fervour of red.
They've certainly stated that all the colors are capable of good and evil things. But I don't think they've ever said they're "equally" good or evil.
Sources for these claims?
Because a benevolent person randomly beats the crap out of you or even kills (again, see Vraska's backstory) because of random, made up laws.
Red/White isn't [just] Chaotic Good. Indeed, one of the main characteristics of it is it's inherent hypocrisy, and the Boros have been pretty much set up as main antagonists for Gatecrash (see Aurelia and her paranoia and insanity).
It can be very, very abhorrently evil. Just look at Nobilis of War.
With that reasoning, Good is Evil.
... that's some kinda postpostmodern hookum. I had a laugh. But you started out okay. RTR is definitely going this route.
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Sorry, it was wide open. The initial reason for this discussion was to analyze all of this stuff to reiterate and challenge different elements and accepted views on the guilds as I implement them into my pathfinder campaign, and for others who wish to do so or just discuss it for discussion's sake.
It is not about the institution just protecting itself (from Evil).
It is about the institution protecting itself over others AND often at the cost of others, like the Ravnica Guilds do. That is a Neutral or Evil thing to do.
Each of the Guilds has attempted world domination before and would try again without the other symmetrical factions balancing them out.
Cōnservātum album delenda est.
Whatever's the case, none of the guilds fit into the "good" section of the alignment chart. I wouldn't even say that the guilds can fit into the alignment system, since they are not single entities but instead groups of individuals with different goals and methods. Even the Golgari, as inoffensive as they are, are a guild containing power-hungry backstabbers and uncontrolled ravenous zombies.
Those were Azorius soldiers.
Branko One-Ear left the Azorius after the raid.
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Somehow after reading the story i was left with strong impression that those soldiers were Boros. Only week later in the second part i realized they were actually Azorious. Weird. Perhaps that is because they act like we expect Boros soldiers to act and totally not what we expect from Azorious?
I agree. I don't believe you can apply a system of morals and/or ethics (ie Good vs Evil) to an organization. An organization is not a person with a mind, soul or a conscience. It is made up of individuals who each have their own mind, and it's the individuals in leadership roles who decide the direction and actions of the larger organization.
From Wiki:
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.
Now, of course good characters harm and kill people, even heroic good characters. You could even argue that they dabble in oppression if they put down an band of orcs harrassing a village. The implication for evil is that the actions are malicious and self serving, and that, for sentient beings at least, the evil character is aware that what they are doing is wrong, and either don't care or enjoy that fact.
Good aligned characters can be villainous, just like white aligned characters can be villainous. A templar who brutally cracks down on non-believers might be lawful good, but a clear villain if his actions are motivated by a sincere belief that he is promoting the common good by upholding the laws of his nation and his gods, and therefore committing a morally righteous act. He's still a villain, and someone that society would be better off without, but he's definitely not evil, or even neutral. If he were doing so merely as an excuse to exercise his sadistic tendencies, or take the possessions of his victims, he would be evil.
The reason people think, wrongly, that the Selsnya and Boros are not good aligned is because they are so lawful aligned that it offends our cultural morality. In western culture, freedom is seen as a good thing (rightly so), and fanaticism and control are seen as evil (rightly so). In D&D, freedom is chaotic leaning, while control and the removal of freedom are lawfully aligned. Both Boros and Selesnya are Lawful Good, as they both crave order and they both are motivated by a concern for the good of society, but the argument can certainly be made that they are in practice detrimental, or even villainous. They also both have a moral code, and a well formed sense of right and wrong, and believe what they are doing is right. By contrast, the Orzhov and the Rakdos know what they are doing is evil, and either don't care (Orzhov) or like it (Rakdos). The Izzet and Gruul would be neutral, because they don't really care about doing good for society, but they also don't care to actively harm it either.
EDIT: I could see the case made for Boros as lawful neutral though, as when push comes to shove, the law comes first, but I still think they're Lawful Good, though as much of a burden on society as a boon
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Can't get more LN then that.
Selesnya: Lawful Good (with LG, LN, NG and true Neutral members)
Totally disagree "brainwash" couldn't exist in the realm of good. It can't exist in the realm of chaos. The conclave wanting the good for itself and the good for all is the exact same thing because they want to accommodate everyone in it. Imposition is a lawful behavior, not a evil one. Anyone who believes in object truth of morality might feel obliged to enforce it in one level or another and it doesn't make then evil. Also loosing individuality is not necessarily a evil thing, just very un-chaotic one. Influence people into not getting into violent behavior is hardly a evil thing too.
Selesnya is good because they fight for life, peace and happiness, even through for it evolves accommodating everyone inside their religion. I agree it has stronger lawful then good tendencies, but the good is there because they have a moral system based on mutual respect of all living and cooperating things, unlike the Azorius who believes in amoral order that do not evolves people content.
I think only extremely chaotic people will see Selesnya as "evil". Basically because the free spirited have the principle "people know what they want" and any intervention on that is considered evil for then. If one believes "brainwashing" people is the only path to happiness and they are good (won't rest until everyone's happy), the right thing to do is evangelize because at this point they believe people don't know what they want. It doesn't make then evil.
Izzet: Chaotic Neutral (with non-lawful members)
Golgari: True Neutral (druid-like neutral requirement. I see the life and death cycle as some sort of druidic balance)
Rakdos: Chaotic Evil (with CE, NE and CN members)
Orzhov: Lawful Evil (with LE, LN and NE members. Teysa for exemple seens really LN even with good tendencies but the Ghost Council is surely LE with capital E).
Boros: Chaotic Good (with CG, NG and CN members)
I place Boros on the Chaotic side and Selesnya on the Lawful side because, unlike Selesnya, the Boros doesn't want to remove people's freedom. The Boros don't really care about anything but the direct idea that justice must be done. The quotes about they "imagining laws" is exact that, they don't really care about strict laws. They just want to punish evil deeds for the sake of it. It's Good practicing the anti-evil and injustice crusade without a second thought about anything else. In my view, i see "justice" as a CG concept and "right" as a LG or LN concept.
Simic: True Neutral (any alignment is ok)
They are too focused on a amoral concept to give any importance to member's personal actions. The simic is the guild that most reminds me of the scientific community (switching Evolution for Truth). In the academy it doesn't matter if one is a pedophile mass murderer or a saint as long as his contributions are right. I feel the Simic acts the same way.
Dimir: Neutral Evil (with NE, LE and Neutral members, which makes then Neutral Evil with lawful tendencies i guess).
The Dimir surely has a Neutral Evil core but it would hate to work with a chaotic member. Maybe because free spirit and hierarchical secrecy doesn't hold well together.
Gruul: Chaotic Neutral (any non-lawful is acceptable, barbaric style)
@Onering: awesome post. Totally agree with your opinion, except i would still call chaotic on Boros.
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This.
We might disagree on Selesnya and Boros being good or evil in general sense and say that no Guilds are good, but by D&D definition they are indeed Good aligned.
Though i don't see Boros as Lawful Good, but rather Chaotic Good. Vigilante justice is not Lawful.
Okay, you have done the impossible. You have changed my mind through the internet. I change my previous assessment to match this, with a couple minor changes.
A) I think every guild has members of every alignment. Though the ones you listed are probably the most prevalent except...
B)I think the Cult of Rakdos has more Lawful Evil members than you'd expect. Mainly because of this paragraph from the Planeswalker
s Guide Part 3:
:symg::symu: Infect-Old Standard that I need to update
And trying to decide what my next EDH will be.
I am a :symg::symrg::symr::symur::symu::symug: 'walker all the way.
Read my post carefully. I did not said the Selesnya was not brainwashers. I said brainwashers can be Good in D&D system. The Selesnya religion is good because it evolves very one achieving a greater good, which is Good in D&D system. The process evolves the loose of individuality and hive minding but it doesn't mean evil, it means far lawful.
About Selesnya being villainous, they surely are for the chaotic free spirited.
You designed yourself a die hard Izzet, which makes you the perfect example of chaotic people considering extreme lawful agenda as "evil".
A) Yeah totally agree, I just think people outside the norm would sooner or latter be pushed out of the guild. I mean, someone chaotic would have a hard time being inside the Azorius who punishes choatic behavior. Someone lawful would be isolated in the Izzet who constantly break laws in their search for progress. Etc.
B) Well remembered. Rakdos's witch hood could be considered Lawful Evil sometimes.
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LE at work, CE at home.
When a Cleric casts Calm Emotions or Charm Person (which is type of mental interference very close to what the Selesnya do) he does not get Evil points.
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