I was reading one of the recent threads here in the story forum, and came across something mentioning "planeshifting not being the same as planeswalking" in regards to Myojin of Night's Reach.
Being a lover of lore (almost the sole reason that got me interested in me Magic), I became very intrigued by the difference in between planeshifting and planeswalking.
Google failed to produce any satisfying answers, so what better place to ask than here?
Essentially it has to do with loopholes.
A planeswalker is the only one who can really planeswalk. There's some argument (and by that, I mean I'm hedging my bets and inventing an argument to cover both sides) that some would consider a companion being dragged along with a walker as having planeswalked as well.
Planeshifting, on the other hand, covers basically everything else that isn't planeswalking. The methods vary, but more or less, if the character is unaware of the veil between the blind eternities and the world they are on, or is unable to pierce said veil on their own, then they are planeshifting.
In the case of Night's Reach, she was exploiting a rip in the very fabric of the multiverse and using it as a backdoor to other worlds. I actually have the exact method by which the Weatherlight was able to planeshift but... well, it's like a page and a half long and is full of psuedo magi-science.
So, basically its a matter of unassisted vs assisted travel. A walker can walk because of the spark, which is part of them and lets them part the veil between the world and the howling chaos beyond.
Ah, I see. So there is no such thing as "natural planeshifting" without being an actual planeswalker? (Something akin to pseudo-planeswalking, except without passing through the Blind Eternities.)
Also, while we're on the topic, why can't planeswalkers transport others with them through the Blind Eternities? Is it simply because the Blind Eternities is such a volatile place that non-walkers can't even pass through for a millisecond?
For that matter, how are neo-walkers able to pass through the Blind Eternities, given their diminutive stature compared to old-walkers? ...Or does the spark just protect them (with no further explanation)?
There are two things that might be able to naturally planeshift. Cosmic Larva and Timmerian fiends*. Everything else needs a portal or some sort of device to bypass the Eternities.
The Eldrazi, meanwhile, don't planeshift because in their natural form, they never directly interact with the plane on a physical level. They aren't supposed to leave the Eternities.
And yes, the Blind Eternities are so volatile that nothing unprotected by the spark is dissolved in a matter of moments. Walkers can't even remain there too long because of the deleterious nature of the Eternities. It is literally made of aetheric acid and chaos. Stare too long at a spot in the Eternities and your very thoughts will shape it. Whatever horror is spawned from that moment will be torn apart almost as soon as it was created. It took extreme amounts of creativity and power to be able to let anything other than a walker survive the eternities, even for a moment.
Oldwalkers were just as susceptible to the Eternities as neowalkers are, regardless of their other power. In some ways it's even worse because they don't have a body to anchor themselves with.
*This is an absolutely ANCIENT piece of lore from the Homelands documents.
In the case of Night's Reach, she was exploiting a rip in the very fabric of the multiverse and using it as a backdoor to other worlds. I actually have the exact method by which the Weatherlight was able to planeshift but... well, it's like a page and a half long and is full of psuedo magi-science.
Whoa, seriously? I'd really like to read that. I've been looking for anything related to planeshifting technology. Do you think you could just try a summary at least?
Whoa, seriously? I'd really like to read that. I've been looking for anything related to planeshifting technology. Do you think you could just try a summary at least?
P.S.
What about Phyrexia's Planar Portals?
Yeah, it was featured in the Art of Rath book from ages ago. There's a full layout and blueprint for the weatherlight in it.
I'll.... consider it, okay?
And Phyrexia's portals were essentially tubes of darkness. We never really got explanations for how they worked, but planar coordinates were involved.
It took extreme amounts of creativity and power to be able to let anything other than a walker survive the eternities, even for a moment.
Do these two statements hint that it is in fact possible to have non-walkers (aside from beings like the Eldrazi) pass through the Blind Eternities (just with a great deal of effort)?
...Or are these merely hypothetical?
Didn't the Eldrazi originally "travel between planes devouring the mana and life energy until the plane’s destruction."? I thought their purpose for existence was to travel from plane to plane and consume. Given that, wouldn't their travels be considered planeshifting, or even planeswalking (assuming they pass through the Blind Eternities, since they are native to the Blind Eternities)?
P.S ~ Thank you for the information thus far, it is most appreciated.
Do these two statements hint that it is in fact possible to have non-walkers (aside from beings like the Eldrazi) pass through the Blind Eternities (just with a great deal of effort)?
...Or are these merely hypothetical?
We've had instances of beings who passed through the Eternities. Most of the time it was a result of Urza doing stuff.
He created an eternity resistant bubble producing cyst for Xantcha. She couldn't enter or exit the eternities without Urza, nor could she navigate without him. Even with the bubble, she nearly died several times.
When Tolaria started exploding, he took who he could with him by turning them all to 2 dimensional stone. Even then, he lost a few.
Didn't the Eldrazi originally "travel between planes devouring the mana and life energy until the plane’s destruction."? I thought their purpose for existence was to travel from plane to plane and consume. Given that, wouldn't their travels be considered planeshifting, or even planeswalking (assuming they pass through the Blind Eternities, since they are native to the Blind Eternities)?
Nope. They didn't planeshift because they never left the blind eternities. They existed without physical form and consumed planes from the outside. Imagine swimming through the water and coming up to a balloon filled with something delicious. The Eldrazi would float around outside the balloon and use some bizarre metaphysical straw to drain the mana out of planes without every interacting with it directly.
The essential thing for both walking and shifting is to actually be... y'know ON a plane and then go to another one.
People seem to have a hard time understanding that just because you can walk planes, doesn't make you a planeswalker. The new Planeswalker cards have raised alot of questions about non-spark characters getting planeswalkers cards.
I tend to use the term Planeshifting when refering to planeswalking without a spark. It is just easier than explaining how a nonplaneswalker can planewwalk.
We've had instances of beings who passed through the Eternities. Most of the time it was a result of Urza doing stuff.
He created an eternity resistant bubble producing cyst for Xantcha. She couldn't enter or exit the eternities without Urza, nor could she navigate without him. Even with the bubble, she nearly died several times.
When Tolaria started exploding, he took who he could with him by turning them all to 2 dimensional stone. Even then, he lost a few.
Nope. They didn't planeshift because they never left the blind eternities. They existed without physical form and consumed planes from the outside. Imagine swimming through the water and coming up to a balloon filled with something delicious. The Eldrazi would float around outside the balloon and use some bizarre metaphysical straw to drain the mana out of planes without every interacting with it directly.
The essential thing for both walking and shifting is to actually be... y'know ON a plane and then go to another one.
Most interesting and enlightening. Far more informative than most of the texts I have come across, especially about the Eldrazi.
In magic a planeswalker is defined as someone with an active spark.
This was more obvious back when being a planeswalker gave you alot of other abilities. (like creating planes and shapeshifting)
The mending did not change the definition of planeswalker.
So yes, Night's reach could move from plane to plane, but she didn't have an active spark, so she wasn't a planeswalker.
I understand a spark defines the term 'planeswalker' and that Night's Reach is not a planeswalker, but I don't see what that has to do with new-walkers "rais[ing] alot of questions about non-spark characters getting planeswalkers cards."
I understand a spark defines the term 'planeswalker' and that Night's Reach is not a planeswalker, but I don't see what that has to do with new-walkers "rais[ing] alot of questions about non-spark characters getting planeswalkers cards."
essentially because they were shorn of their godhood, people seem to think that anything can just BE a walker because there isn't much difference between a walker and a non-walker at this point.
I understand a spark defines the term 'planeswalker' and that Night's Reach is not a planeswalker, but I don't see what that has to do with new-walkers "rais[ing] alot of questions about non-spark characters getting planeswalkers cards."
People love planeswalker cards, and people love older characters (Niv-Mizzet is the new hot character but it has been done with previous ones). Thus, what would be better then to take that character and print them as a planeswalker card?
People want a Niv-Mizzet planeswalker card, not because it woudl make sense in teh storyline, but becasue "NIv is cool, and every cool character should be made into a planeswalker card."
It is a nonsensical opinion i'll admit, but one that persists (especailly among people who don't understand what a planeswalker is). So i tend to say "Planeshift" that way i don't have to explain why Niv-Mizzet could build a planeswalking device without being a planeswalker.
Yeah, it was featured in the Art of Rath book from ages ago. There's a full layout and blueprint for the weatherlight in it.
I'll.... consider it, okay?
Meh, no pressure. I just realized that the existence of the Weatherlight and the Planar Portals alone seem sufficient case of making something that can bypass the Blind Eternities without the spark (albeit more difficultly and I like that).
Meh, no pressure. I just realized that the existence of the Weatherlight and the Planar Portals alone seem sufficient case of making something that can bypass the Blind Eternities without the spark (albeit more difficultly and I like that).
Well there in lies the crux of it.
The devices bypass the Eternities.
Walkers don't. They traipse right through there.
For... what exactly? For devices? Mana.
They all need mana to function, though they use it in a variety of manners.
The devices of course.
Mana is already a given but you know how it is with inter-dimensional devices. There's always some weird metal coating or warp-drive-thingamabob that keeps them from being torn by the chaotic time-space forces.
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Being a lover of lore (almost the sole reason that got me interested in me Magic), I became very intrigued by the difference in between planeshifting and planeswalking.
Google failed to produce any satisfying answers, so what better place to ask than here?
A planeswalker is the only one who can really planeswalk. There's some argument (and by that, I mean I'm hedging my bets and inventing an argument to cover both sides) that some would consider a companion being dragged along with a walker as having planeswalked as well.
Planeshifting, on the other hand, covers basically everything else that isn't planeswalking. The methods vary, but more or less, if the character is unaware of the veil between the blind eternities and the world they are on, or is unable to pierce said veil on their own, then they are planeshifting.
In the case of Night's Reach, she was exploiting a rip in the very fabric of the multiverse and using it as a backdoor to other worlds. I actually have the exact method by which the Weatherlight was able to planeshift but... well, it's like a page and a half long and is full of psuedo magi-science.
So, basically its a matter of unassisted vs assisted travel. A walker can walk because of the spark, which is part of them and lets them part the veil between the world and the howling chaos beyond.
Also, while we're on the topic, why can't planeswalkers transport others with them through the Blind Eternities? Is it simply because the Blind Eternities is such a volatile place that non-walkers can't even pass through for a millisecond?
For that matter, how are neo-walkers able to pass through the Blind Eternities, given their diminutive stature compared to old-walkers? ...Or does the spark just protect them (with no further explanation)?
Cosmic Larva and Timmerian fiends*. Everything else needs a portal or some sort of device to bypass the Eternities.
The Eldrazi, meanwhile, don't planeshift because in their natural form, they never directly interact with the plane on a physical level. They aren't supposed to leave the Eternities.
And yes, the Blind Eternities are so volatile that nothing unprotected by the spark is dissolved in a matter of moments. Walkers can't even remain there too long because of the deleterious nature of the Eternities. It is literally made of aetheric acid and chaos. Stare too long at a spot in the Eternities and your very thoughts will shape it. Whatever horror is spawned from that moment will be torn apart almost as soon as it was created. It took extreme amounts of creativity and power to be able to let anything other than a walker survive the eternities, even for a moment.
Oldwalkers were just as susceptible to the Eternities as neowalkers are, regardless of their other power. In some ways it's even worse because they don't have a body to anchor themselves with.
*This is an absolutely ANCIENT piece of lore from the Homelands documents.
Whoa, seriously? I'd really like to read that. I've been looking for anything related to planeshifting technology. Do you think you could just try a summary at least?
P.S.
What about Phyrexia's Planar Portals?
Yeah, it was featured in the Art of Rath book from ages ago. There's a full layout and blueprint for the weatherlight in it.
I'll.... consider it, okay?
And Phyrexia's portals were essentially tubes of darkness. We never really got explanations for how they worked, but planar coordinates were involved.
Do these two statements hint that it is in fact possible to have non-walkers (aside from beings like the Eldrazi) pass through the Blind Eternities (just with a great deal of effort)?
...Or are these merely hypothetical?
Didn't the Eldrazi originally "travel between planes devouring the mana and life energy until the plane’s destruction."? I thought their purpose for existence was to travel from plane to plane and consume. Given that, wouldn't their travels be considered planeshifting, or even planeswalking (assuming they pass through the Blind Eternities, since they are native to the Blind Eternities)?
P.S ~ Thank you for the information thus far, it is most appreciated.
We've had instances of beings who passed through the Eternities. Most of the time it was a result of Urza doing stuff.
He created an eternity resistant bubble producing cyst for Xantcha. She couldn't enter or exit the eternities without Urza, nor could she navigate without him. Even with the bubble, she nearly died several times.
When Tolaria started exploding, he took who he could with him by turning them all to 2 dimensional stone. Even then, he lost a few.
Nope. They didn't planeshift because they never left the blind eternities. They existed without physical form and consumed planes from the outside. Imagine swimming through the water and coming up to a balloon filled with something delicious. The Eldrazi would float around outside the balloon and use some bizarre metaphysical straw to drain the mana out of planes without every interacting with it directly.
The essential thing for both walking and shifting is to actually be... y'know ON a plane and then go to another one.
I tend to use the term Planeshifting when refering to planeswalking without a spark. It is just easier than explaining how a nonplaneswalker can planewwalk.
Most interesting and enlightening. Far more informative than most of the texts I have come across, especially about the Eldrazi.
Again, thank you for this bounty of information.
I am curious what you mean by this. Could you elaborate why that is case?
It's what I'm here for. I'm basically a living compendium of story info.
In magic a planeswalker is defined as someone with an active spark.
This was more obvious back when being a planeswalker gave you alot of other abilities. (like creating planes and shapeshifting)
The mending did not change the definition of planeswalker.
So yes, Night's reach could move from plane to plane, but she didn't have an active spark, so she wasn't a planeswalker.
I understand a spark defines the term 'planeswalker' and that Night's Reach is not a planeswalker, but I don't see what that has to do with new-walkers "rais[ing] alot of questions about non-spark characters getting planeswalkers cards."
essentially because they were shorn of their godhood, people seem to think that anything can just BE a walker because there isn't much difference between a walker and a non-walker at this point.
It's inane.
People love planeswalker cards, and people love older characters (Niv-Mizzet is the new hot character but it has been done with previous ones). Thus, what would be better then to take that character and print them as a planeswalker card?
People want a Niv-Mizzet planeswalker card, not because it woudl make sense in teh storyline, but becasue "NIv is cool, and every cool character should be made into a planeswalker card."
It is a nonsensical opinion i'll admit, but one that persists (especailly among people who don't understand what a planeswalker is). So i tend to say "Planeshift" that way i don't have to explain why Niv-Mizzet could build a planeswalking device without being a planeswalker.
Meh, no pressure. I just realized that the existence of the Weatherlight and the Planar Portals alone seem sufficient case of making something that can bypass the Blind Eternities without the spark (albeit more difficultly and I like that).
Well there in lies the crux of it.
The devices bypass the Eternities.
Walkers don't. They traipse right through there.
Any chance that your sources describe a critical component? A particular alloy or catalyst perhaps?
For... what exactly? For devices? Mana.
They all need mana to function, though they use it in a variety of manners.
The devices of course.
Mana is already a given but you know how it is with inter-dimensional devices. There's always some weird metal coating or warp-drive-thingamabob that keeps them from being torn by the chaotic time-space forces.