I can't seem to find any info on this anywhere. Maybe it's my poor research skills...
I was always under the impression that Yawgmoth was the architect of the Phyrexian way of life. Now with Scars of Mirrodin it seems that the Phyrexian Oil is the true source of Phyrexia.
1- Is that a retcon ?
2- Did Yawgmoth simply discover and take over Phyrexia as-is ?
3- Is there any information about where the oil came from ?
Thanks!
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so here's what i don't get about the phyrexian oil. okay sure it was carried in karn's heartstone whatever. when the mightstone and the weakstone were united to ignite karn's spark though, wouldn't that have obliterated any phyrexian taint in him?
it was powerful enough to kill yawgmoth, but not cleanse phyrexian taint? other planeswalkers have had their sparks ignited and burned away all impurity, like a certain ice age era planswalker and that pesky necromancer... so why didn't karn's ignition burn away the phyrexian oil?
I don't think it's hard to imagine that Yawg got corrupted and his thoughts changed by his mechanization. Phyrexians often do believe they are "healing" those they corrupt.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
they always were a borg spin off, (read invasion, their weapon of choice a biological agent that turned people into them, Some of there best servents orignaly good guys who they turned in too them (Mishrea, Crovix, Volrath ect) ) they HONESTLY beleve there way of life is the best way of life and that everyone should be like them and from a practical stand point alot of there improvments ARE better, you can't honestly tell me that you would say no to being able to function with 9x the strneth and speed of a "normal" human skip the need for sleep and eatting and inprove you mentel cognitive functions 1000x fold. Have all your senses amplyed by factor of 10 ect.
so here's what i don't get about the phyrexian oil. okay sure it was carried in karn's heartstone whatever. when the mightstone and the weakstone were united to ignite karn's spark though, wouldn't that have obliterated any phyrexian taint in him?
it was powerful enough to kill yawgmoth, but not cleanse phyrexian taint? other planeswalkers have had their sparks ignited and burned away all impurity, like a certain ice age era planswalker and that pesky necromancer... so why didn't karn's ignition burn away the phyrexian oil?
Karn is artificial. That alone could be reason enough for the corruption not to have been removed.
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"Each year that passes rings you inwardly with memory and might. Wield your heart, and the world will tremble."
they always were a borg spin off, (read invasion, their weapon of choice a biological agent that turned people into them, Some of there best servents orignaly good guys who they turned in too them (Mishrea, Crovix, Volrath ect) ) they HONESTLY beleve there way of life is the best way of life and that everyone should be like them and from a practical stand point alot of there improvments ARE better, you can't honestly tell me that you would say no to being able to function with 9x the strneth and speed of a "normal" human skip the need for sleep and eatting and inprove you mentel cognitive functions 1000x fold. Have all your senses amplyed by factor of 10 ect.
Funny thing is that Phyrexia was conceived before the Borg..
Karn did not ascend, he inherited Urza's/Glacian's spark (sparks?). I assume the act wasn't as traumatic. A better question would be why the Legacy activation didn't purge the oil when it sure did kill The Ineffable.
You mean why it did not purge the oil from inside of Karn? Well, I haven't read all reports but as far as I can tell, Karn malfunctioned later. So Xantcha's heart wasn't leaking before they fired the Legacy. And the Legacy did not outright kill the Ineffable, it simply powered up Tahngarth's axe up the wazoo.
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[I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
... so why didn't karn's ignition burn away the phyrexian oil?
Remember also that Karn's sentience came from the Heartstone. As far as I know, none other than Phyrexia have been able to create sentient machines. If the oil inside the stone was burned away, presumably Karn would no longer exist.
I guess another thing to consider is that the oil itself wasn't "evil" to begin with. It was just another layer to help make the artificial world go round, and it certainly wasn't "tainted" in any way when Yawgmoth first showed up. If the current form of the oil is rooted in artifice rather than black magic, the Legacy would likely have little effect.
If that still doesn't do it for you, then just imagine an entire universe filled with nothing but glistening oil. How much energy would you need to consume that much oil? Seems difficult if there's no oxygen around to help it burn... We learned in The Thran that powerstones actually house full-blown universes, which is why they can hold so much energy, so this isn't totally out of left field.
Now, to answer the OP's question, glistening oil came from Phyrexia before it was known as Phyrexia. When Dyfed first brought Yawgmoth (and Rebbec) to the world, she gave them a quick tour. The first sphere was a lush world with flourishing animal and plant life, except that their origins were in artifice. They ate and bred and did everything a normal animal would, but they were machines, maintained by the will of the (recently deceased) "dragon" planeswalker. The lower spheres were there to sustain the environment on the surface by simulating weather, geological events etc. In particular, the fourth sphere was nothing but a sea of glistening oil, presumably pumped to the surface and used by the creatures there somehow. That's the most we've got on the oil's origins.
I don't think discovering the oil's true nature qualifies as a retcon. Yawgmoth was always the driving force behind Phyrexia, but the discovery of the glistening oil was a huge boon to his plans. It made Phyrexia powerful by aiding in the mutation, strength and viability of a nation of machine-men. Over time, a modification was either made intentionally (perhaps just by Yawgmoth's will) or happened naturally (perhaps due to being run and rerun through Phyrexians over hundreds of generations). We don't know exactly how or when the oil became a weapon, but it's pretty clear that this wasn't always the case.
[QUOTE=Syphon;/comments/7180697]Funny thing is that Phyrexia was conceived before the Borg..[Quote/]
I don't think they actually were thought up first, the Borg first showed up in the late 80's on next generation. Either way, the whole back story of the phyrexians wasn't really fleshed out till at earliest antiquities, in 1994.
Edit Sorry can't quite figure out how to get the quoting thing to work with only a portion of the quote.
1) Best of Both Worlds / Emissary style Borg. These are a relentless, single minded force of conquest in the galaxy. They have no individual thought, and use the Hive Mind as a source of intelligence and sensory input and always act on the most efficient course of action to see their goals of assimilation completed. A single cube shrugged off the attacks of the Federation and Romulan fleets.
2) First Contact / Voyager Borg: These Borg claim to be a force of perfection throughout the galaxy. They have no individual thought, but are lead by a complete moron who spouts nonsense then claims that no one is smart enough to understand her. They use the Hive Mind as a way to indoctrinate assimilated individuals on the ideals of the hive mind. A single starship has a higher killcount against these Borg than Yawgmoth had against planeswalkers.
Personal bile against Voyager aside, the Phyrexians seem to be a more refined version of the second type of Borg. They genuinely believe that they are not only helping life, but perfecting it. They are both scientific powerhouses and religious zealots. They are even looking for a mad leader to make stupid decisions for them! It's a perfect fit!
So to keep this sort of on topic, the Glistening Oil was native to Phyrexia. I'm just curious whether or not, in its natural state, the Oil was as virulent as it is now. Since it was so pervasive on Phyrexia, was it not a force of mutation but just a stagnant power source? Now that it's been taken out of its natural habitat, does it seek to spread evenly across this new plane, and isn't conscientiously aware of its destructive power?
So to keep this sort of on topic, the Glistening Oil was native to Phyrexia. I'm just curious whether or not, in its natural state, the Oil was as virulent as it is now. Since it was so pervasive on Phyrexia, was it not a force of mutation but just a stagnant power source? Now that it's been taken out of its natural habitat, does it seek to spread evenly across this new plane, and isn't conscientiously aware of its destructive power?
Interesting question. This makes sense to me:
The oil was probably created along with Phyrexia as a source of drinking "water". Mechanical creatures would need some sort of heat sink and lubricant, assuming we try to be at least a little realistic. Actual water wouldn't be the best for this (think of the rust), so the planeswalker who made Phyrexia used oil instead.
However, over the thousands of years of Yawgmoth's rule, the oil became corrupted. The fact that it appears to program the Phyrexians of Scars with behavior, thought processes, and abilities similar to those of the original Phyrexians would seem to indicate that it was co-opted by Yawgmoth at some point as a way to easily "train" Phyrexians. I remember the Saga novel showing that newts like Xantcha underwent physical training, so the oil might have been more of an educational/loyalty-enforcement/indoctrination tool.
How he made it that way is a tossup, though. What matters is that it probably wasn't even a weapon until taken out of context and used on non-Phyrexians.
Xancha and the other sleeper agents are a rub in this expirement. Xancha is flesh over a mechanical heart/skelaton? If the oil completes, then why were the sleeper agents successful. Wouldn't they have become corrupted, bled oil from the eyes and the oil changed them? If the oil causes the change, why were they not changed?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
So I guess my question now is: Did Yawgmoth make the oil into what it is now... or was it the other way around ?
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The Borg were around LONG before the Phyrexians... according to wiki, their first appearance was May 8, 1989. Phyrexia didn't get introduced to Magic until Antiquities, which was March 1994 (also according to wiki.
So that gives the Borg an edge of nearly 5 years.
Also, the Phyrexians didn't take on Borg-like properties until well into the Weatherlight storyline, and any referenced past activities that show them exhibiting such behavior is a clear ret-con. They were originally represented as a fanatically zealous cult that thought that flesh was imperfect, and worshipped the perfection of machines. But only machines created by Yawgmoth or his priests. See the MTGS wiki for more info.
"Here only miracles. Here, only the rising of spirit. And yes, love if it was pertinent (which it was so often); and sometimes bloodletting. But never the prosaic, never the trivial. Here the man who brought the strangest tale was the most welcome. Here every excess was celebrated if it brought visions, and every vision analyzed for the hints it held to the nature of the Everlasting." - Clive Barker's Imajica
Folks, can we stay on topic ? I love the Borg and Phyrexians as much as anybody else, but...
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This. Wizards is retconing. HIde your kids, hide your wife. They gonna fiiiiiiind you, they gonna retconnn youuuuu.
I was going to answer this earlier, but this issue is what dissuaded me from doing it... so I'm just going to point at Skater's reponse and leave it at that.
Folks, can we stay on topic ? I love the Borg and Phyrexians as much as anybody else, but...
But they share so much in common! Can't help but to be drawn by the similarities.
That aside, how many retcons to the oil have been made? I can't keep track of the back and forth this oil keeps going through. I wish I had more of the source material for where the oil gets mentioned, but as of now, I guess I'm just going to have to pore through my Artifacts Cycle and Mirrodin Block novels.
I can't be sure, but did they write about the oil during the Invasion? I've scoured that part of my memory.
I was always under the impression that Yawgmoth was the architect of the Phyrexian way of life. Now with Scars of Mirrodin it seems that the Phyrexian Oil is the true source of Phyrexia.
1- Is that a retcon ?
2- Did Yawgmoth simply discover and take over Phyrexia as-is ?
3- Is there any information about where the oil came from ?
Thanks!
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2- Phyrexia was made by an ancient planeswalker, but another walker named Dyfed gave Phyerxia to Yawgmoth
3- It was used by Phyrexia, but no one knows where it came from
it was powerful enough to kill yawgmoth, but not cleanse phyrexian taint? other planeswalkers have had their sparks ignited and burned away all impurity, like a certain ice age era planswalker and that pesky necromancer... so why didn't karn's ignition burn away the phyrexian oil?
Check out the Phyrexian Scars promo video if you don't believe me.
Karn is artificial. That alone could be reason enough for the corruption not to have been removed.
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Funny thing is that Phyrexia was conceived before the Borg..
You mean why it did not purge the oil from inside of Karn? Well, I haven't read all reports but as far as I can tell, Karn malfunctioned later. So Xantcha's heart wasn't leaking before they fired the Legacy. And the Legacy did not outright kill the Ineffable, it simply powered up Tahngarth's axe up the wazoo.
Remember also that Karn's sentience came from the Heartstone. As far as I know, none other than Phyrexia have been able to create sentient machines. If the oil inside the stone was burned away, presumably Karn would no longer exist.
I guess another thing to consider is that the oil itself wasn't "evil" to begin with. It was just another layer to help make the artificial world go round, and it certainly wasn't "tainted" in any way when Yawgmoth first showed up. If the current form of the oil is rooted in artifice rather than black magic, the Legacy would likely have little effect.
If that still doesn't do it for you, then just imagine an entire universe filled with nothing but glistening oil. How much energy would you need to consume that much oil? Seems difficult if there's no oxygen around to help it burn... We learned in The Thran that powerstones actually house full-blown universes, which is why they can hold so much energy, so this isn't totally out of left field.
Now, to answer the OP's question, glistening oil came from Phyrexia before it was known as Phyrexia. When Dyfed first brought Yawgmoth (and Rebbec) to the world, she gave them a quick tour. The first sphere was a lush world with flourishing animal and plant life, except that their origins were in artifice. They ate and bred and did everything a normal animal would, but they were machines, maintained by the will of the (recently deceased) "dragon" planeswalker. The lower spheres were there to sustain the environment on the surface by simulating weather, geological events etc. In particular, the fourth sphere was nothing but a sea of glistening oil, presumably pumped to the surface and used by the creatures there somehow. That's the most we've got on the oil's origins.
I don't think discovering the oil's true nature qualifies as a retcon. Yawgmoth was always the driving force behind Phyrexia, but the discovery of the glistening oil was a huge boon to his plans. It made Phyrexia powerful by aiding in the mutation, strength and viability of a nation of machine-men. Over time, a modification was either made intentionally (perhaps just by Yawgmoth's will) or happened naturally (perhaps due to being run and rerun through Phyrexians over hundreds of generations). We don't know exactly how or when the oil became a weapon, but it's pretty clear that this wasn't always the case.
I don't think they actually were thought up first, the Borg first showed up in the late 80's on next generation. Either way, the whole back story of the phyrexians wasn't really fleshed out till at earliest antiquities, in 1994.
Edit Sorry can't quite figure out how to get the quoting thing to work with only a portion of the quote.
the Borg specifically were first introduced on May 8, 1989....and magic didn't even begin till 93
(no i didn't know that i looked it up)
/nerd
1) Best of Both Worlds / Emissary style Borg. These are a relentless, single minded force of conquest in the galaxy. They have no individual thought, and use the Hive Mind as a source of intelligence and sensory input and always act on the most efficient course of action to see their goals of assimilation completed. A single cube shrugged off the attacks of the Federation and Romulan fleets.
2) First Contact / Voyager Borg: These Borg claim to be a force of perfection throughout the galaxy. They have no individual thought, but are lead by a complete moron who spouts nonsense then claims that no one is smart enough to understand her. They use the Hive Mind as a way to indoctrinate assimilated individuals on the ideals of the hive mind. A single starship has a higher killcount against these Borg than Yawgmoth had against planeswalkers.
Personal bile against Voyager aside, the Phyrexians seem to be a more refined version of the second type of Borg. They genuinely believe that they are not only helping life, but perfecting it. They are both scientific powerhouses and religious zealots. They are even looking for a mad leader to make stupid decisions for them! It's a perfect fit!
So to keep this sort of on topic, the Glistening Oil was native to Phyrexia. I'm just curious whether or not, in its natural state, the Oil was as virulent as it is now. Since it was so pervasive on Phyrexia, was it not a force of mutation but just a stagnant power source? Now that it's been taken out of its natural habitat, does it seek to spread evenly across this new plane, and isn't conscientiously aware of its destructive power?
Interesting question. This makes sense to me:
The oil was probably created along with Phyrexia as a source of drinking "water". Mechanical creatures would need some sort of heat sink and lubricant, assuming we try to be at least a little realistic. Actual water wouldn't be the best for this (think of the rust), so the planeswalker who made Phyrexia used oil instead.
However, over the thousands of years of Yawgmoth's rule, the oil became corrupted. The fact that it appears to program the Phyrexians of Scars with behavior, thought processes, and abilities similar to those of the original Phyrexians would seem to indicate that it was co-opted by Yawgmoth at some point as a way to easily "train" Phyrexians. I remember the Saga novel showing that newts like Xantcha underwent physical training, so the oil might have been more of an educational/loyalty-enforcement/indoctrination tool.
How he made it that way is a tossup, though. What matters is that it probably wasn't even a weapon until taken out of context and used on non-Phyrexians.
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So that gives the Borg an edge of nearly 5 years.
Also, the Phyrexians didn't take on Borg-like properties until well into the Weatherlight storyline, and any referenced past activities that show them exhibiting such behavior is a clear ret-con. They were originally represented as a fanatically zealous cult that thought that flesh was imperfect, and worshipped the perfection of machines. But only machines created by Yawgmoth or his priests. See the MTGS wiki for more info.
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This. Wizards is retconing. HIde your kids, hide your wife. They gonna fiiiiiiind you, they gonna retconnn youuuuu.
I was going to answer this earlier, but this issue is what dissuaded me from doing it... so I'm just going to point at Skater's reponse and leave it at that.
I live in Antoine's home town. I can confirm with absolutely certainty that the man has nothing to do with Phyrexia.
The bedroom intruder, however, is 100% compleat.
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But they share so much in common! Can't help but to be drawn by the similarities.
That aside, how many retcons to the oil have been made? I can't keep track of the back and forth this oil keeps going through. I wish I had more of the source material for where the oil gets mentioned, but as of now, I guess I'm just going to have to pore through my Artifacts Cycle and Mirrodin Block novels.
I can't be sure, but did they write about the oil during the Invasion? I've scoured that part of my memory.